Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 19, 2022, 05:14:57 PM
-
Now that I have the bike running I need to be sure that the battery is being charged by the alternator before I take her any distance for a run. I guess the ignition light going out is pretty meaningless on a bike.
Is there an easy way to test if charge is going into the battery without too much complicated stuff - the charging system is a standard original wiring layout with the original silicone recifier & pointless regulator I think its called?
Neither unit has been replaced by me.
-
Yes, voltmeter on battery terminals, check before starting (should be about 12.3~12.9v) then started it should climb to about 13.95v ish volts by 3~4000 rpm.
Job done, if it doesn't climb above original volts, nothing is happening.
-
Yes, voltmeter on battery terminals, check before starting (should be about 12.3~12.9v) then started it should climb to about 13.95v ish volts by 3~4000 rpm.
Job done, if it doesn't climb above original volts, nothing is happening.
I'll try that and see what happens - what's the first suspect I guess it the Regulator that DS do not have most likely to have rusted away internally like my flasher unit?
-
If you haven't got a meter,
Run the bike in a dark place, turn on the main beam,slowly increase the revs, lights should brighten until about 2,000rpm when they dim slightly as the regulator kicks in.
If you hold the front brake on as well, the stop lamp will do the same.
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
-
If you haven't got a meter,
Run the bike in a dark place, turn on the main beam,slowly increase the revs, lights should brighten until about 2,000rpm when they dim slightly as the regulator kicks in.
If you hold the front brake on as well, the stop lamp will do the same.
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Worth a try except I have LED bulbs so might not work - I have an AVO meter but tbh the owner is pretty unaware of what it can do.I can pretty much only test AC & DC voltage the rest is a mystery to me.
-
Are all the bulbs LED?
Yes, it will make it tricky
Set your meter to DC,and 0-20v
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
-
As ever Ted I am following your lead. I've done 90 miles now and only just started to think about charging. I have a new Motobatt so it would probably cover that mileage without a charge. When fully charged it measures over 13 volts, can't remember the exact figure. Checked today and it is at 12.4 volts so I will need to keep an eye on it and do the voltage test when running tomorrow. I'm guessing you have a new battery too.
-
Set dc volts 0-20 range, if meter goes up when engine running chances are all ok. Regulators can fail but are pretty bomproof normaly, rectifiers hate bad connections and reversed battery.
1 Check volts turned off with kill switch off
2 Check volts turned on with kill switch of
3 Check volts turned on with kill switch on
Should drop a bit for condition 2 and more for 3
When running should increase till about 3,000 rpm but not go over 14.5 ish, 15.5 ok on lead agid or agm but not lithium battery
-
As ever Ted I am following your lead. I've done 90 miles now and only just started to think about charging. I have a new Motobatt so it would probably cover that mileage without a charge. When fully charged it measures over 13 volts, can't remember the exact figure. Checked today and it is at 12.4 volts so I will need to keep an eye on it and do the voltage test when running tomorrow. I'm guessing you have a new battery too.
The bike came with a new dry charged battery I think it's called I just added the battery acid that came in the box - left on slow charge, it seems to crank the engine over no problem with nice bright lights. I have no idea how long the PO had the battery for before I bought the bike. At present I have left the battery on charge with my C-Tek unit so will do some checks in the morning. If it's not raining I will have a short ride round the housing estate at the back of us. I've been swatting up in my Cycleserve Honda CB400F Servicing Manual P75-81 reads like a comprehensive guide to the charging System & its components.
I'm confident that with the help of members here I will sort it if its not working as it should. Like checking the valve timing I might not grasp what I am told immediately (Thanks again Bryanj for your help) but I am not afraid to sound dim during the learning process.
-
So definitely not charging.
Battery voltage with ignition off is 12.94 volts (taken off charge at 1.00 am this morning).
Ignition On Run switch Off 12.46 volts.
Iginition On Run switch On 12.08 volts.
When engine is running voltage is 12.23 volts it does not alter if engine revs go to 5k no change at all - not a flicker of increase.
So system is not charging at all.
-
At the regulator connect the black and white wire and see if charge rate goes up
-
At the regulator connect the black and white wire and see if charge rate goes up
When you say connect them do you mean attach a bridge wire and see if the voltage changes across the battery?
-
Yes mate, that should put full battery voltage to field coil and give max generator output
-
Yes mate, that should put full battery voltage to field coil and give max generator output
I will give that a go in the morning.
-
Well this morning before I started with Bryanj's advice at the forefront I decided it might be safer to remove the voltage regulator from it's mounting to carry out the bridge test.
I disconnected the device to check how clean the brass spades were on the unit when I noticed they are marked E, F & I. At this point I looked at the casing markings and realised the
cover was on the wrong way round effectively inverting the connections E & I just the white field connection was correct.
I looked at some members photos I have showing that the regulator case should have the colours showing when in position not at the back of the unit. I reversed the casing cover so now the markings on the case match those on terminalls effectively reversing the top & bottom connections. ( Now thinking what could have burnt out as a result) I should have blamed the PO but the truth is out now.
Fired up the bike and she is happily turning out over 14.2 volts at higher revs - so confession time I think I put the cover on back to front when I spruced up the base with some zinc primer so as it turns out a bit of an own goal. As a bonus the loom spur with the three wires sits more comfortably the right way up!
When the day has warmed up some more might have another ride hopefully using more than first gear - gear shift foot lever repositioned on the splines yesterday.
(Note to self the circlip on the shaft need replacing it's spring action has sprung)
-
I've got an old gearchange off a 400 lying around waiting to be experimented on Ted. Can't believe the amount of play in the rose joints, both have around 3-6mm of play. I'm going to replace the rose joints with better ones, replace the rubber boots with new, refurbish the gear lever and the mounting part and have it rechromed to see how it looks after.
If it looks ok Ted I'll let you have it for road testing if your up for it. Nothing worse than pulling the old foot up to change gear and you end up lifting the entire foot off the footrest because there's so much play in the linkage. Really bad design by Honda, simple lever like the 500 would have been much better.
-
I've got an old gearchange off a 400 lying around waiting to be experimented on Ted. Can't believe the amount of play in the rose joints, both have around 3-6mm of play. I'm going to replace the rose joints with better ones, replace the rubber boots with new, refurbish the gear lever and the mounting part and have it rechromed to see how it looks after.
If it looks ok Ted I'll let you have it for road testing if your up for it. Nothing worse than pulling the old foot up to change gear and you end up lifting the entire foot off the footrest because there's so much play in the linkage. Really bad design by Honda, simple lever like the 500 would have been much better.
Well that's a coincidence the none DS gearshift lever I have is rather inadequate. I might have to put my old one back on as it wants to catch the rear suspension shaft end bolt thread. I've tried a some different rod adjustment lengths and moving a spline but its not great.
So yes I'm up for testing - if its better than what I have I'm sure we could arrange an adoption fee. Thanks Ken
-
It's hitting the swinging arm pivot bolt Ted? Jesus, how knackered is that?
Been many a year since I worked on a 400, can you put a pic up of the arrangement Ted so I know what I'm looking at. I can't seem to visualise what it's hitting for some reason.
This is the 1300 gearchange after I modded it. 2 new rose joints with oiling points under the boots, new phosphor bronze link shaft, new stainless steel locknuts on the shaft, one left handed thread. Anti tamper stainless steel torx bolts in case anyone took a fancy to it ::) ::) Not shown is the new Phosphor bronze pivot bush
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrwQyThF/IMG-2141.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06zM8RY8)
The 400 one should look similar, same rose joints, same boots but I can't get the bronze linkage bar made as a mate did a few of those for me and he's since left the firm he made them at. The 400 linkage bar is really small, only about 60mm end to end. That bar is 100mm so too long, shame as I have a spare.
Oh a top down view of the gear lever would help Ted, I think the lever is bent where the gearchange rubber fits, need to see how a straight one looks so I can reshape it back to original spec.
-
Those regulators are pretty bomb proof Ted, normaly takes a lump hammer to damage them! Nothing electronic inside just coils, resistors and points which dont mind reversed voltage.
As an asside the only difference on a 500/550/750 one is the angle the terminals point at
-
This is the replacement unit I bought from Bertums as my old lever was well rusty.
This is to show the bottom where it touches the end of the thread of the long shaft - it clears the nut but just touches the end thread. Second photo shows the clevis pin that it just misses now I have fiddled with the adjustable rod. Even the new ball joints seem to have a lot of unnecessary movement before they do anything. It was a lot cheaper than the DS replacement so I've part learn't my lesson
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52020313119_9df163b7fe_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nfRGJk)IMG_20220421_190009 (https://flic.kr/p/2nfRGJk) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52020069856_e0839a841a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nfQsq9)IMG_20220421_190017 (https://flic.kr/p/2nfQsq9) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
-
Looking at your photo, the arm from the rear rose joint to the 'toe' part is in one piece in a straight line. If you look at the pics on David Silvers site, note the pattern and original show that arm as being a separate piece welded further outboard so as to clear that nut and stud. Your new one is not very well designed, sorry mate. Whichever one you fit, get hold of an aerosol can of spray grease with a nozzle and fill the rubber boots on the rose joints. I have always done this and am still using the original gear lever set. Have fun, Mike.
-
That's the bottom engine hanger bolt Ted.
On the 500 that bolt is threaded both ends, could be the same on the 400. In which case loosen the nut on the gearchange end and take the bolt further through the frame by tightening the nut on the brake lever end. That should stop it hitting.
The linkage rod is nice, looks like phosphor bronze. Doesn't loom a lot like the original lever does it. Looks cheap and nasty to me, doesn't even have the alignment dot in the lever to match the gear change spindle. Can't understand why with new rose joints there is so much play.
You still got the old original lever?
-
Yes I have the original lever Ken it will be in my box of bits that I have replaced.
Yes it is threaded at both ends - never thought about just moving it across a bit - Ill give it some looking at, obvious now you mention it.
-
Something weird about that lever. As standard the long part of the lever sits outside the gear shaft fitting. Also I think that the gear shaft fitting needs rotating clockwise by about 30deg until the bolt is horizontal. This may require some further adjustment of the rose joint bar.
-
Something weird about that lever. As standard the long part of the lever sits outside the gear shaft fitting. Also I think that the gear shaft fitting needs rotating clockwise by about 30deg until the bolt is horizontal. This may require some further adjustment of the rose joint bar.
The second photo is misleading as it looks as if it's close the the lever on the shaft, if the shaft lever is rotated further clockwise then the heel of the foot lever strikes the clevis pin on the footrest.
I have the pedal adjusted now so I can select all the gears but the play in the new ball joints seems excessive for new joints - I probably should have bought the DS one but it is expensive at £70 ish.
-
I had a similar issue with my RD125 gearlinkage,
I found double ended rose jointed shaft available at your local computer based auction site,
Totally improved the operation and feel.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220422/036c3a7a071197c1b3ccc9319598168f.jpg)
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
-
The problem John is how to attach them to the lever parts. After experimenting with the 1300 lever I found it was quite easy to lock up the rose joint as the side and middle of the joint were held against the lever. This just freezes it in place, yes it still moves but it wears very quickly as it's not free to move and is essentially forced to by foot pressure. The other problem is finding a bolt that is secure and won't rattle off , I seem to recall my solution was to have no nuts involved at all, both ends are like button caps. They are actually spaced away from the lever by a gnats whisker.
They really need protection boots fitted as well or they get full of dirt etc not an ideal placement where they are, loads of stuff getting flung around that area.
-
That's the bottom engine hanger bolt Ted.
On the 500 that bolt is threaded both ends, could be the same on the 400. In which case loosen the nut on the gearchange end and take the bolt further through the frame by tightening the nut on the brake lever end. That should stop it hitting.
I've done as you suggested - and moved it a few threads along so no longer a danger of catching the shaft end threads - I was tunnel visioned that the threads had to match on both sides.
-
I don't think it would have mattered on an OE gear lever Ted, but needs must when it's an aftermarket one. Not exactly like you look at both sides at once anyway.