Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: fourfive on November 01, 2022, 08:26:51 PM
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hi, can anyone tell me if it is possible to determine if the primary chain has too much play in it by rotating the clutch basket clockwise and anticlockwise and measuring the free play ?
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I tried lifting it off the teeth on my 400 - mine was shot. This was confirmed by the Tank Track test when I removed it.
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No it cant but remove the sump and see how much lay you can feel, probably lots, plus how much its eaten into the main oil gallery
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I've taken the sump off, there seems loads of play but I can't see any signs of wear and there's filings in the sump.
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With the primary chain you don't tend to see wear, they look fine until they break. If the chain is sloppy then replace it along with the primary drive damper rubbers, don't buy a genuine Honda primary chain, the Kawasaki chain is exactly the same and half the price.
The tank track test consists of removing the chain and laying it on a flat surface similar to a tanks tracks, the more links that touch in the middle the worse it is, a new chain won't even touch unless you push down on it.
I'd remove it quickly BTW, filings in the sump generally mean it's eating it's way through the oil gallery which sits under the chain, a clear indication it's really buggered.
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I've taken the sump off, there seems loads of play but I can't see any signs of wear and there's filings in the sump.
Missed a word out, should have read "there's no fillings" in the sump.
Which kawasaki chain is the same?
Thanks Ian
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Honda primary chain 23131-323-000 is only £46.42 and is a different make to Kawasaki Z550 chain ;)
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£126 at Silvers and £133 at CMSNL the Kawasaki on is less £50, i think its the 650 one. 92057-1011, £48.02 at Fowlers
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Honda primary chain 23131-323-000 is only £46.42 and is a different make to Kawasaki Z550 chain ;)
Hi Trigger. What is your source please for the Honda chain?
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We'd all like to know that Phil. It will be a finite source regardless as Honda have discontinued them.
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Yup, I went for the Kawasaki chain as the Honda item was just too expensive.
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same ere, thanks to Ken.
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23131-323-000 was not discontinued, it was superseded to 23131-323-003 and now has been superseded to 23131-426-003.
You need to look a little far afield than Sliver or CMSNL. Around £46 retail in Japan and also the primary rubbers are cheaper. If you open a trade account you can get a 25% to 33.3% discount ;)
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Aha…I have an ‘image’ in mind while cruising around.
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Aha…I have an ‘image’ in mind while cruising around.
Nope, Cruzinimage don't sell Honda genuine parts Phil.
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After you've added P&P it's around $72 then you have potential import duties, so buying the Kawasaki version is far cheaper, quicker and the part is the same, neither chain has a manufacturers mark on them so it's just as likely they are made by the same manufacturer, I didn't want to add that 23131-323-00 was the wrong part number as that would be stooping to you're level of trying always to prove everyone else wrong, however 23131-426-003 is discontinued as confirmed by web searches for places with no stock.
Factor in that we can't all claim trade discount and the Kawasaki version starts to look more and more attractive.
Getting a little tired of you constantly trying to prove me wrong now Graham, just because I started to sell parts and you thought that was in your words "Taking the food out of my mouth" I don't do things like that to make a profit, I do it to help out other members with a limited budget who want affordable parts.
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23131-426-003 is not a discounted part, found in the UK straight away >> https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/by-part-number/hpart_23131323000/ :o
23131-323-000 was not the wrong part number, that was the first number, then supersede to 23131-323-003 :o
The Honda primary chain is made by Tourmax and is a 63HV30350 and the Kawa chain can be made by who ever can make a chain the cheapest. We used to build GT550 engines back in the 90's and Kawazaki were using Hi-Vo chains from B.W.M at that time. Just because a chain looks the same, it has different Max tensile strength's and different Fatigue tensile strength's ;)
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[attachimg=1]
I've taken the engine out of the frame, turned it upside down, does the red arrow point to wear caused by the chain?
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Hard to tell from the angle of that picture but, something has been cutting that alloy. When the chain gets worn out, it starts to chop the main oil gallery. Any type of alloy shavings is not good in any engine ;)
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I’ll guess again Julie….
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I remember in the 80s I once had a chat with a Kawasaki dealer. I asked him if there was an expected lifespan of the primary chain. He shrugged his shoulders and informed me he had customers who managed to do a ton with them. So I guess I am lucky with nearly 140k so far. Yet my aim is to equal the guy that had done 220k and still used his CB500 for his daily commuter rides.
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FM. 220k miles? How much punishment can a human take?
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FM. 220k miles? How much punishment can a human take?
;D ;D
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Fourfive, that part you can see getting worn away is the bottom fitting for the camchain tensioner, they get gouged by the chain along with the oil gallery, if there is damage there it's almost certain the oil gallery will also be damaged. Take the engine part asap before the damage gets worse.
Phil, it's 220km not miles if it's in Europe, still a good figure, it converts to around 136000 miles, got 2 engines already with more than that BUT both of them have had numerous primary and camchains. I'd love to see a picture of the bottom case when that baby comes apart, I'd imagine it's going to be a real mess inside, if of course it doesn't wear through the oil gallery first and seize the engine.
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Didn’t realise deltarider was a Johnny Foreigner. He left the m out of km. so naturally I assumed he meant kilo…thousand (10 power 3). Pretty impressive all the same. I don’t think I could stand owning a bike that long.
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23131-426-003 is not a discounted part, found in the UK straight away >> https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/by-part-number/hpart_23131323000/ :o
23131-323-000 was not the wrong part number, that was the first number, then supersede to 23131-323-003 :o
The Honda primary chain is made by Tourmax and is a 63HV30350 and the Kawa chain can be made by who ever can make a chain the cheapest. We used to build GT550 engines back in the 90's and Kawazaki were using Hi-Vo chains from B.W.M at that time. Just because a chain looks the same, it has different Max tensile strength's and different Fatigue tensile strength's ;)
Read what I said, I said try a web search for 23131-426-003 and see what they say when they haven't got stock. DS isn't going to say it's discontinued when he has stock because it would prove that his stock must be old and therefore bought at far lower prices than what he's no charging for them, he probably paid around £14 for each chain when they were available and now he can gouge a nice £126 out of you for something he paid virtually nothing for. CMS are the same. As soon as they have no stock (and DS only have 1 ) they'll be saying it's been discontinued by Honda along with all the other dealers who don't have one in stock. As per https://www.diyspareparts.com/parts/honda/chain-primdrive-23131-426-003/
Secondly, the Honda chain was actually made by Tsubaki originally, they may have switched suppliers later when they did the 650 which would make sense as the 650 engine was more powerful and thus may have needed a slightly stronger chain, the CB650Z was a 63HP motor and the 500 was around 48-50HP depending on who you trust, it may also explain why Honda changed the part number, Honda NEVER changed a part number if the original part was ok, it's why you see parts inside engines with 028 middle part number, meaning it was first fitted to a REALLY old Honda, if it was the same part but a different supplier they'd just change the end 3 numbers, hence 23131-323-000 going to 23131-323-003, just a small change, possibly a small revision or a different supplier. Changing the number entirely means it's not the same part, it will do however, it's like fitting a drive chain, you can fit a standard chain and it will be fine but you can also fit a heavy duty chain and that's good as well but will last longer.
As for Kawasaki fitting the cheapest and thus weaker chain, OMG really, Kawasaki are renowned for over engineering their engines, the part number was still being fitted to bikes from the late 90s, the GPZ600R was the last to use it and that engine was pushing out 85hp. You really think Kawasaki, renowned for their engineering prowess, would fit a sub standard chain, if it's good enough to fit in a 85hp motor it's certainly good enough to fit in a 50hp motor which the GT550 was. If it wasn't good enough you can bet your house on it that Kawasaki would have changed it when they made the GPZ600R, the fact they didn't proves it's not sub standard.
Thirdly, the 23131-323-000 comment, I knew that the part number had changed and been superceded to 23131-426-003, if I knew then you knew as you must order a few, so why say it's that number, I didn't bring the part number up first, you did. If I'd have listed that number I can guarantee you'd have commented on the fact it had changed, just to prove me wrong, which you have done not only for myself but for quite a few other members lately, don't think this has gone unnoticed Graham. I decided to be the bigger man and not comment as it didn't seem necessary, if you go to order that part number you'll get transferred to the 426 number anyway, unless you find some REALLY old stock somewhere.
I'd much prefer it if you would stop this constant sniping from the side lines, as I'm sure other members would, no need to correct me for a slight mistake like a part number revision, if I'm 100% wrong then yes, feel free to comment as I'd sooner you did that than chance me misleading members and it having severe consequences, either financially or engineering wise. Otherwise, sit on your hands and be the bigger man and say nothing, like I've done for some time now.
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Didn’t realise deltarider was a Johnny Foreigner. He left the m out of km. so naturally I assumed he meant kilo…thousand (10 power 3). Pretty impressive all the same. I don’t think I could stand owning a bike that long.
I've owned 2 500s for many years now, the K reg was bought in 1973 with 8000 on it and currently has over 265000 miles on it and is still on the road doing more, although it's not exactly in perfect nick ATM as it's got the engine apart for a strange noise that we can't trace as yet.
The L reg was bought in 1978 with 34000 on it and that's the one I'm currently restoring for the second time and that's done around 163000 but that's had a lot of new parts fitted, strangely neither has been bored and neither has had a new clutch but they've both had numerous chain and bearings fitted in that time. They really are both a little like Triggers broom, not a lot left of the original bike. Sadly the L reg will have a new set of barrels fitted off a 550 this time, not seen the barrel liners yet but I'd imagine they'll have some damage after being stored for over 40 years.
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Oddjob and Trigger, please will you both BLOODY SHUT UP. Both sit on your hands, keep your fingers away from any keyboard until you can both type something that is of interest to other forum members.
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I’ve just seen a squirrel…..🫣
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Referee! 📣📣📣 (couldn’t find a whistle)
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I’ve just seen a squirrel…..🫣
WTF does that mean ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I was a moderator on .net for many years.
This is a walk in the park compared to some of the gun threads we had to deal with.
Having said that, just agree to disagree guys.
Please.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I've decided to strip the engine and replace the chain. Trying to get the rotor off the crankshaft I screwed the removal tool into the rotor, First tried with a crack bar but no joy. Then I used an impact gun, still no joy and the threads have stripped on the rotor.
Will I damage anything using heat?
Any other suggestions welcome.
Thanks Ian
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You stripped the threads, Jesús never heard of it doing that before. Try some heat, won't hurt. You need to get it off to replace the oil seal behind it.
Not sure where in the UK you are but probably a member close by with a spare rotor lying around. I've got quite a few, some are rusty but would clean up ok.
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I'm near Sheffield, couldn't believe it when the threads came out. Blow torch out in the morning.
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Gawd stripped rotor threads - a bit late in the day now - my experience with most similar pullers is to just nip the thread up so it's in place but not over tight. Then a good lump hammer strike on the top of the puller. If it does not budge a little more nipping up and repeat. Using a big bar or an impact gun on a puller is a no-no for me. I've had car flywheels and all sorts where the taper surfaces have part fused but they have always come out.
With the crank out you should be able to apply some impact force from behind to get the rotor off - one side then the other with a helper holding the crank vertically if heat alone does not work.
Keep us posted with your progress.
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I’d strip the motor then go for the rotor later. I’ve found that it’s easy to use judiciously placed soft wood and progressive taps with a hammer will ease it off. Worked for me as I didn’t have a puller.
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I've decided to strip the engine and replace the chain. Trying to get the rotor off the crankshaft I screwed the removal tool into the rotor, First tried with a crack bar but no joy. Then I used an impact gun, still no joy and the threads have stripped on the rotor.
Will I damage anything using heat?
Any other suggestions welcome.
Thanks Ian
Paul Gledhill lives in the Sheffield area, he has a lot of experience and may have a puller. If using a puller, always place a nut in the hole so, not to damage the crank thread ;)
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Referee! 📣📣📣 (couldn’t find a whistle)
You will NEVER break the chain :) https://youtu.be/JDG2m5hN1vo
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;D
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It's finally off, plenty of heat and some well-placed hammer blows did the trick.
Has anyone got a replacement to sell me?
Thanks Ian