Post by: Wenman on June 23, 2017, 08:27:10 PM
Just a quick one I'm in the process of testing all the components involved in charging the battery, reg/rec, stator field coils, rotar etc
When testing the resistance in the stator field coil it reads 1.3ohms minus the resistance between the probes (0.4ohms) This would make 0.9 ohms!!
Manual states .35ohms plus or minus 10% therefore if I am correct the maximum resistance should be 0.39 ohms and my readings are all 0.9 ohms!!
Can anyone tell me if my readings would mean the coil is knackered or will it just not charge properly??
I can't seem to find anything else wrong with the system at present!!
Thanks
Alan
Post by: Bryanj on June 23, 2017, 11:49:42 PM
Post by: mike the bike on June 24, 2017, 12:00:46 AM
Post by: Wenman on June 24, 2017, 08:49:01 AM
I've tested the combined reg/rec I purchased which is fine although I have always questioned if it was the correct combined reg/Rex for my bike. I will post a pic of it soon.
It has..
3x yellow
1x red
1x green
I believe these plug straight j to the harness and seem to match up colour wise.
It also has 1 x black/red stripe wire which forks into 2 spade connectors. The fitting instructions state to place these spade connectors, one into the black wire of the old regulator and the other into the white wire if the old regulator and discard the green wire from the old regulator?
It just doesn't seem right to me??
The thoughts of your minds in this one would be very appreciated!!
Thanks again
Alan
Post by: totty on June 24, 2017, 09:51:06 AM
Have you tested the system as a whole? What voltage to you get at the battery with the engine at say 3k rpm?
Post by: Wenman on June 24, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Post by: Colonial-Clive (yindi) on June 24, 2017, 09:13:24 PM
Post by: Wenman on June 25, 2017, 05:19:12 PM
Has anyone else successfully used a David Silver Spares combined reg/rec?
Be interested to know if I'm wiring it up right?
Also noticed I'm blowing the main 15amp fuse!!
With everything connected up right except the reg/rec, turn ignition on fuses stay in tact.. when connecting the main block connector for the reg/rec, turn ignition on, fuses stay in tact, as soon as I connect that black/red wire to the black and white of the old regulator fuse blows!
This is becoming very annoying!!
Alan
Post by: Bryanj on June 25, 2017, 05:21:10 PM
Post by: Wenman on June 25, 2017, 06:36:55 PM
I've tested the reg/rec with a multimeter and as far as I can see it's operating as it should!
This lends it to the wiring.. be odd coming from such a reputable dealer such as DSS for it to have incorrect instructions!
Alan
Post by: Bryanj on June 26, 2017, 08:11:47 AM
Post by: flatfour on June 26, 2017, 08:37:51 AM
I also temporarily fitted the DS unit to my CB500 whilst I had the regulator and rectifier on that bench tested (not because of concerns in the case of that bike, simply because having found someone who could do the tests I thought that I would have both bikes checked, mindful of the age of the equipment).
The DS unit is packed away now, but I will not hesitate to use it on either bike if needed.
Post by: Wenman on June 26, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
Can you remember how you wired it up? Did it matter which of the spade connectors went to the black and white wires from the old regulator??
Thanks
Alan
Post by: flatfour on June 26, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
Post by: flatfour on June 27, 2017, 03:01:28 PM
1) Remove original Rectifier and its wiring from the block connector
2) Fit new Rectifier/Regulator and plug block connector into harness
3) Remove white and black wires from original Regulator and wrap terminals that they were fitted to on the Rectifier with tape
4) Connect one terminal of black and red wire from new Rectifier/Regulator to the white wire and the other to the black wire
5) Leave the green wire on the original Regulator and leave this component fitted to the bike (it acts as an earth)
6) Start engine and check charge voltage (original test data shows 14.7 - 15.1 V). The target range was 15 V for these tests.
Post by: flatfour on June 27, 2017, 03:05:21 PM
Post by: flatfour on June 30, 2017, 08:30:35 AM
Post by: Wenman on June 30, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
I spoke with David silver Spares also and they exchanged the reg/Rec for one which has a black and white wire making the wiring side easier! Although the new unit is twice the bloody size which is going to make it fun fitting it under the seat!!😡
I am in the process of cleaning everything up so testing will hopefully be over the weekend!
I'll be sure to update you!
Thanks again for your help!
Alan
Post by: flatfour on June 30, 2017, 08:12:37 PM
Post by: bomber on July 03, 2017, 09:27:26 AM
Many thanks
Apologies flat four,
I spoke with David silver Spares also and they exchanged the reg/Rec for one which has a black and white wire making the wiring side easier! Although the new unit is twice the bloody size which is going to make it fun fitting it under the seat!!😡
I am in the process of cleaning everything up so testing will hopefully be over the weekend!
I'll be sure to update you!
Thanks again for your help!
Alan
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 04:39:26 PM
So having cleaned all the connectors up, fitted new combined rec/reg, new antigravity battery and volt gauge fitted took it for a spin!
At first the batt was riding 12.9 volts... it held at 12.9 v for a good 5 miles. Stopped, cuppa and went again... this time I just watched as the voltage slowly dropped, sat at the lights end of my road and it was reading 11.6 (any more and I risk ruining another £200 battery!😩)
Managed to get home and reading 11.1v. Quickly put it on charge to save battery!
Something is definitely wrong... in my opinion it should have risen to around 14v but instead slowly depleated!
I'm now at a total loss and feel like crying! This project is slowly becoming a very expensive ornament!!
Please help!
Alan
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 05:25:09 PM
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 05:32:18 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 05:48:55 PM
I could really do with another stator to try but without paying three the nose to have one imported they are far and few between.
I think there are 3 parts to it too, inner coil, outer coil and rota!
Where would I start? Also would 750 coils fit?
Alan
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 06:36:43 PM
I'm sure someone who visits here has a spare engine or two tucked away under a bench. Besides, stators can be rewound if you can prove yours is faulty. Plenty of companies out there providing rewinds.
You listed ohms readings in your first post and were concerned about the values. In my experience, the values are not so important as how they compare to each other. Where were the values taken. Phase to Phase they should be the same or very similar. Any phase to earth/body/ground should be infinity/over-range. If they're zero or a very low reading then it's shorted and won't work for sure. Again as Mike said, the low resistances in play make it hard to get accurate readings without specialised equipment.
If I get time this week I could pull my 500 apart and get some comparison readings but I'm not promising as I've got 3 sick motorcycles at the moment.
Don't get discouraged, trust me, I've been where you are and it feels like you'll never see the way out. Remember these machines are a collection of components and when one goes wrong it has you chasing your tail but you'll get there you just have to be methodical and try each little thing until you solve it.
Peter.
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 06:45:36 PM
Another quick question... I removed the block connector from the rectifier in order to feed the wires through a small hole and re connected the block. Would getting the yellow wires mixed up cause any issues ??
Post by: mike the bike on July 10, 2017, 08:08:16 PM
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 08:24:59 PM
Good luck.
Peter.
Post by: mike the bike on July 10, 2017, 09:31:50 PM
There's a little man inside the regulator with a volt meter measuring the battery. If it's too low he thinks "ay up, getting a bit low here, best get the alternator going" so he flicks a little switch and makes the exciter coil get excited, hence the alternator gets making juice.
If the little man measures it too high he has to turn the exciter coil off or the battery will blow up and the little man will get a bollocking.
Hope this helps.
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 09:35:02 PM
Post by: mike the bike on July 10, 2017, 09:53:14 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
The three phases go through the full wave rectifier so it won't make any difference - trust me. It might be an idea to check the ac voltage on each of the yellows. I don't know what the actual voltages are without measuring them but all three phases should read roughly the same. If there's nothing coming out of the alternator, the next thing to check is if there's 12V across the exciter coil (the one in the middle). Without a magnetic field from the exciter coil you ain't gonna get juice in the yellow wires.
There's a little man inside the regulator with a volt meter measuring the battery. If it's too low he thinks "ay up, getting a bit low here, best get the alternator going" so he flicks a little switch and makes the exciter coil get excited, hence the alternator gets making juice.
If the little man measures it too high he has to turn the exciter coil off or the battery will blow up and the little man will get a bollocking.
Hope this helps.
Thanks again,
Can u explain in laymans terms.. testing the ac current across the three yellows is that done engine running on not?
Also where how do I check the 12v on the exciter coil?
Wish that little man would start doing his job properly or I'm giving him the boot!!
Oh also.. if I disconnect the stator block from the harness and test the three yellows coming from the stator (yellow to yellow all combinations) I get correct readings.. if I put the black probe on the frame and the red probe on each yellow wire I get nothing whatsoever! Does this mean it's shorting somewhere??
Al
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 10:15:28 PM
When you say nothing whatsoever, do you mean '0.00' or another symbol.The three phases go through the full wave rectifier so it won't make any difference - trust me. It might be an idea to check the ac voltage on each of the yellows. I don't know what the actual voltages are without measuring them but all three phases should read roughly the same. If there's nothing coming out of the alternator, the next thing to check is if there's 12V across the exciter coil (the one in the middle). Without a magnetic field from the exciter coil you ain't gonna get juice in the yellow wires.
There's a little man inside the regulator with a volt meter measuring the battery. If it's too low he thinks "ay up, getting a bit low here, best get the alternator going" so he flicks a little switch and makes the exciter coil get excited, hence the alternator gets making juice.
If the little man measures it too high he has to turn the exciter coil off or the battery will blow up and the little man will get a bollocking.
Hope this helps.
Thanks again,
Can u explain in laymans terms.. testing the ac current across the three yellows is that done engine running on not?
Also where how do I check the 12v on the exciter coil?
Wish that little man would start doing his job properly or I'm giving him the boot!!
Oh also.. if I disconnect the stator block from the harness and test the three yellows coming from the stator (yellow to yellow all combinations) I get correct readings.. if I put the black probe on the frame and the red probe on each yellow wire I get nothing whatsoever! Does this mean it's shorting somewhere??
Al
0.00 means zero ohms as in no resistance, not good. If it's another symbol (depending on the model of your meter) could be an up arrow or OR (over range) or something else it means infinity resistance which is good.
You need to conduct the ac voltage test with the engine running or you won't see anything. Remember it's an ac voltage test (it hasn't reached the rectifier yet) so select AC voltage range on your meter.
Have you got a wiring diagram for your model? There should be a 12V feed to the exciter. You need to identify it and test across it and negative/frame/earth.
Check out this video. It's for a car but valid and may help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYkTdnwQKJ4
Post by: mike the bike on July 10, 2017, 10:26:36 PM
IIRC there's a plug with the 3 yellows, a light green/red (neutral light) and blue/red (oil pressure), a green and a white. It's the green and white that should have 12V across them.
All checks to be made with the engine running, it won't charge if the alternator isn't whizzing around.
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 10:29:56 PM
My meter reads | .
So as it's not 0.00 I assume that funny symbol means infinity or similar?
Shame thought I may have discovered the issue!
I'm inclined to re wire the entire bike with a motogadget m unit as I'm sure it's a wiring fault on my behalf and it seems too difficult for my skill set😩
It seems the stator coils are all testing fine, it's a brand new idiot proof rec/reg so components are all good but something's still ruining my day everyday!!
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 10:32:09 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 10:33:57 PM
Post by: petermigreen on July 10, 2017, 10:35:24 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 10:37:27 PM
Post by: mike the bike on July 10, 2017, 10:37:48 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 10, 2017, 10:40:23 PM
Post by: Bryanj on July 11, 2017, 08:26:12 AM
http://manuals.sohc4.net/general/motorcycle_electrics/HondaMES3.pdf
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 12:10:04 PM
So last night I went through all the back end harness checking all the wires had continuity.
I have checked the white wire from rec/reg to stator, correct, the black wire is def getting ignition live.
I have now exhausted all tests and still cannot come up with a resolution.
In a last ditch attempt I have ordered another inner coil and feild coil to replace what I have. Although they test fine I am hoping they are failing when in operation.
Im feeling very beaten by this now... :-(
Post by: petermigreen on July 12, 2017, 12:30:57 PM
Don't give up. Once you've solved it you'll feel great.
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
I only did a top end rebuild so didn't touch the alternator other than inspection and clean up!
The one thing I did notice is on completion of the build is I had a high pitch metal on metal scrapping noise from inside the stator cover, almost like the rota was slightly off set. On inspection I can see where the rotor has fouled on the inner coil. Could this have demagnetised it?
I had ridden it for a while with the noise like that until I got the chance to remove it and refit it since then no noise. Sadly I cannot connect the time of the noise to the charging issue. What I can say is since completion of the build I have ridden the bike 4 times no more than 4 times each for no more than 12-15 miles! Two of which required me pushing the thing home!
Sad times
Post by: hairygit on July 12, 2017, 01:18:13 PM
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Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 01:25:15 PM
I have tested yellow wires top and bottom and also checked continuity so the wires are good!
Alan
Post by: mike the bike on July 12, 2017, 01:33:38 PM
Checking there's 12V on the black is good but only half the story. There's got to be 12V across the coil, ie. Red meter lead on the black, black meter lead on the white, meter showing 12V (ish).
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
Just to confirm the inner coil has 12v going in and 12v going out!!
I'm clutching at straws now as I cannot find anything else which could be causing the issue!
Post by: mike the bike on July 12, 2017, 02:50:08 PM
If there's 12V on both sides of the coil that means there's not 12V across it but 0V across it. You should measure 12V one end and 0V the other end.
For example.
If there's 200V one side of a heating element and 180V the other side, that means there's 20V across the element.
Post by: Niko on July 12, 2017, 05:42:16 PM
I'm on call next weekend, if I'm in Torquay I'll call in and get paid double time for sorting your bike out.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170712/05e16b9c8294da55cefd69e2c44d3ddb.jpg)
To get mine to charge I had to add a second earth from my frame to the green wires....
I.e...frame to green on rec reg...to green from stator
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Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 06:49:15 PM
I'll try anything.. can u explain in a little more detail. I see the green wire coming from the frame, that then goes where???
Thanks
Alan
Post by: mike the bike on July 12, 2017, 07:52:52 PM
Best way is to put red meter lead on battery + and check with black lead on regulator negative (green wire). If meter shows 12V(ish) then you reg. is connected to negative. If it don't show 12V on the meter then that's your problem ; reg not earthed.
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 08:22:49 PM
Check the regulator is connected to OV.
Best way is to put red meter lead on battery + and check with black lead on regulator negative (green wire). If meter shows 12V(ish) then you reg. is connected to negative. If it don't show 12V on the meter then that's your problem ; reg not earthed.
Is the the same with combined rec/rec Mike??
Post by: mike the bike on July 12, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
Imagine birds sitting on a high voltage wire. It's only high voltage compared with earth. High voltage on it's own isn't any voltage otherwise the birds would get fried.
Same with a voltage regulator. It can only measure the voltage if there's a something to measure against.
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 09:52:25 PM
Yes you've got to have an earth on it otherwise it can't measure the battery voltage.
Imagine birds sitting on a high voltage wire. It's only high voltage compared with earth. High voltage on it's own isn't any voltage otherwise the birds would get fried.
Same with a voltage regulator. It can only measure the voltage if there's a something to measure against.
The main connector block has a green wire in so I assume that earths the rec/reg would it not?
Post by: hairygit on July 12, 2017, 09:57:26 PM
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Post by: Niko on July 12, 2017, 10:15:34 PM
You could always run a cable from negative terminal of battery to the earth terminal of the reg/rectifier to discount the possibility of a dodgy earth within the loom.
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That's what I did.....
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Post by: Niko on July 12, 2017, 10:17:28 PM
Niko
I'll try anything.. can u explain in a little more detail. I see the green wire coming from the frame, that then goes where???
Thanks
Alan
Hi....just added an extra earth. Because I had ripped out the loom...the original earth coming from my stator....green....which would go to green on my reg rec.....didn't seem to allow a charge to flow, I rigged up a temporary earth....and it all came good
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Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 10:35:33 PM
The green earth going to the deleted regulator I cut and heat shrinked thinking the new combined unit would earth through the connector block. However looking at my wiring diagram the earth for the new unit runs through the indicator relay as it has a green, black and white wire going to the relay. My relay only has a black and white wire to it! So maybe just maybe it's not earthing correctly?
I could have completed a masters degree in the time it would have taken me to resolve this issue lol!
Thanks for all ur support guys, lots to do on the bike this weekend and I'll be sure to update u with my findings! If you see my project on eBay it didn't go well! Lol
Al
Post by: mike the bike on July 12, 2017, 10:36:22 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 12, 2017, 10:53:37 PM
Have you fixed it then?
Not yet Mike!! Just a few ideas and tests I need to run that you guys have suggested during this feed!
I am praying that with the help from this feed I will figure it out this weekend!
I will keep u posted! Also those that offered to pop in and cast an eye if your commitments bring you down my way are more than welcome! Think I'm still gonna need the help!
Al
Post by: Wenman on July 13, 2017, 08:32:48 PM
Just playing around checking Nikos idea of a second earth. I have checked the green wire from rec to the frame earth at the front of the bike and I have continuity to the frame earth! Also I have placed the red probe on batt pos and black to green wire on rec and I'm getting 12v on the meter! (As per Mike the bikes instructions)
Does this mean the rec is earthed correctly?
I was really hoping this was going to solve this saga?
Alan
Post by: mike the bike on July 13, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 13, 2017, 08:51:34 PM
Do you know.. the inner coil in the stator has a green and white wire coming from it. I've removed it from the bike(still bolted to the stator cover and I'm getting continuity between green to casing and white to casing also continuity both each wire to the coil body itself!
Should this be the case or does this mean it's shorting?
The inner coil bolts directly to the stator cover, if I remove it from the cover I no longer get continuity from the green or the white to the coil body??
Alan
Post by: mike the bike on July 13, 2017, 09:37:56 PM
With the engine running, is there 12V on the white, Y/N?
Post by: Wenman on July 13, 2017, 09:43:34 PM
Not had chance to bolt it all back together but I think, I think I may have just cracked it (not holding my breath mind lol)
Turns out the three bolts holding the inner coil to the stator cover are supposed to be 16mm, mine are 20mm! I think because they are too long they are causing the inner coil to ground to the casing and therefore making it not work as it should (please god let this be it!)
By placing a number of washers on each bolt thus (like my use of the word 'thus' lol) reducing them in size No more continuity, hence no more short!!!!!!!!
Any comments welcome!
Alan
Post by: mike the bike on July 13, 2017, 10:10:17 PM
Post by: Wenman on July 13, 2017, 10:12:49 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 13, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
Post by: mike the bike on July 13, 2017, 10:31:40 PM
Just fire it up and watch the battery voltage swoop up to 14V.
Post by: Wenman on July 15, 2017, 08:28:23 PM
So buttoned the old girl up last night and fired her this afternoon!
Battery off charger for couple of hours reading 12.9... started the engine and it went down to 12.4.
Applied revs up to about 4000-5000rpm and heavens behold the volts started climbing! Went up to 13.4 and steadily climbing before I decided to shut her off as I didn't want to upset my neighbours!
So believe I have only gone and fixed her!!!!!!!
Who would have thought after all that wiring chasing, resistance checking, taking things off putting them back on, new rec/reg, diagram checking, fuse changing blah blah
Turns out the three bolts holding the inner coil to the stator cover were 4mm too long and one was grounding the coil to cover as it was ever so slightly touching the inside of the coil! Bloody previous owners eh!!
I am extremely proud of myself and hope for lots of praise from you lot if not just for my shear tenacity lol!!
No honestly thanks for everyone's comments and encouragement Mike,Niko, hairygit etc
Wouldn't have done it without ya!!
Looking forward to my Sunday ride tomorrow... bet it bloody rains!!! Lol
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 15, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
Post by: hairygit on July 15, 2017, 09:21:21 PM
Post by: mike the bike on July 15, 2017, 09:41:37 PM
Enjoy the fruits of your labours by going for a blast tomorrow.
Post by: Wenman on July 15, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
Hairygit I'll def let you know if I'm up near Exeter.. if not tomorrow definitely in the future if that's okay! I take it when we do meet I don't call you hairygit???
Alan
Post by: hairygit on July 15, 2017, 10:01:56 PM
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Post by: Niko on July 16, 2017, 04:19:17 PM
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Post by: Wenman on July 16, 2017, 08:35:18 PM
Took her for a spin urban town only due to lack of time!!
13.2 on start up fluctuated up and down a bit depending on whether I was stuck at lights or letting her rip.. got up to 13.7 at one point and lowest was 13.1!
Therefore I consider her fixed!!
Bike night on Wednesday hear I come!! 🏍🏍
Post by: mike the bike on July 16, 2017, 09:58:41 PM
TRAFFIC OFFICER. " Do you realise what speed you were doing? "
WENMAN. "Sorry officer, I thought I was only going at 13.7 volts"
Post by: hairygit on July 16, 2017, 10:31:30 PM
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Post by: Wenman on July 16, 2017, 10:36:48 PM
Think I might go the long way round!!
Mike 13.7v is actually very fast!
👮 🚔 😩