Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 06, 2023, 12:49:57 AM
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I've checked the current price of the DS system it presently £1260 plus delivery - Not sure who makes them but at least with DS there is a returns option if it is not right.
Am I missing another suitable UK based supplier ?
I'm guessing they are probably all made by the same manufacturer, not sure I buy into the idea that DS gets all the seconds.
I'm not sure if it's worth buying now rather than in 6 months time - yes prices will rise but if the market demand falls discounts or a price freeze seems likely - DS shows 20 in stock so they are not Dodo eggs at the moment.
Any views or experiences of how well the fit is welcome.
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I think Wemoto do them as well
Cost difference likely to be negligible
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Also here ...but no idea what they are like. I think DS are the same as CMSNL... maybe that CMSNL supply to DS. Julie/Graham may know. I know that they are double-skinned which is a massive plus point compared with 400/4 ones which are not.
https://www.bussostore.com/products/marmitte-honda-replica-originali-cb500k0k1k2-four?fbclid=IwAR0a9uWP-n8gjFPDRg5rCTkXFCqvBKed9R-o4ow4YqSvhnDi0vMn9mx9pjc
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I have never known DS to offer a discount Ted. He won't even drop a couple of quid off if you buy a lot of parts off him at shows!
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I have never known DS to offer a discount Ted. He won't even drop a couple of quid off if you buy a lot of parts off him at shows!
See my reply to your quote here Dave ;D ;D http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,27647.75.html
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The time element of buying has been influenced on here by others experience of getting pipes delivered that varied in fit and alignment, some opting to return individual pipes after they felt the final fit wasn't up to scratch.
If you buy early, inspect well on arrival, but test fit may not be feasible unless you've got engine installed. Something to keep in mind on such a costly item.
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Back in March 2021 l bought a full set of hm323's from DS and did the test fit due diligence Number 2 downpipe was not symmetrical or aligned with the other 3 pipes and stuck out like a saw thumb
I sent pictures back to DS and expected them to offer a replacement pipe .
I sent the set back because of this statement and got the refund
We cannot replace pipe 2 because every set is the same and defective
They had about 20 sets and even refused to replace the whole set .
Later in 2021 I noticed they had reduced the price
l wonder why
Buyer Beware
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Forgot to send photos (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230106/2b1e4172514cf3e9f971d7bd8157b3e5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230106/4fb0016d5b98260a8a79ba0e9e171312.jpg)
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It was because of the one pipe defect that Honda stopped producing exhausts, decided it wasnt worth another jig. Same happened with 350 four which is why they dissapeared as well
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That really is poor,
With relatively modern equipment and I'm not talking lasers and CNC, it can't be difficult to reproduce bends with almost millimetre accuracy. Using an original pipe, an accurate jig should be in the expertise of these aftermarket folk. Perhaps the old skills have disappeared? When I went recently to the Classic show at the NEC, I was really impressed by the number of companies employing 'reverse engineering' to reproduce unobtainable parts for some quite mundane vehicles. Perhaps our bikes are just too small in volume to make it worthwhile?
Ian
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Considering the repro pipes are supposed to be made on the same presses that made the originals it makes you wonder how it can be misaligned. Oddly I have an original No1 & No2 exhaust that I found in the shed, I'd filled them with old oil 40 odd years ago and they are really good, you could have test fitted a genuine No2 pipe to see the difference.
I have a set bought from CMS in 2020? that are still boxed, I'm hoping mine look ok when fitted, I have checked them out and they are perfect but it's the fitting that proves whether they are or not.
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I may dig out the CMS replica No2 exhaust and do a comparison and see if the bend looks the same or not.
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I
My 1st K0 with original pipes was the benchmark + mates bike with DS pipes from 10 years ago .
IWarnout Jigs and fixtures for sure
Has anybody tried the Italian Busso pipes?
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The set fitted to Kitty, my K1 came from CMS.
They fitted very easily and all the down pipes line up spot on. Excuse any dirt, she hasn't had a wash since I took her out last ☺️☺️☺️
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They do look good quality Julie and as you say, they line up very well. They are double skinned headers then?
Hope you don't leave tyre marks on that Kitchen floor :)
Ian
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They do look good quality Julie and as you say, they line up very well. They are double skinned headers then?
Hope you don't leave tyre marks on that Kitchen floor :)
Ian
Yes Ian, double skinned. No tyre marks on the kitchen floor as they are all parked up in the old Conservatory. But, I have been known to leave tyre marks on the kitchen floor in the not to distant past 😂😂😂😂
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On the international forum the other day I've seen a link to the Busso site and was surprised to see a discount. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,131225.msg2228895.html#msg2228895
I just looked again and it seems the discount has disappearedand so was only in december.
BTW, does any of you know if, the OEM brackets will fit the repro pipes and if aftermarket brackets will fit OEM pipes. The reason I ask. My OEM pipes are still OK, but I had to order a repro bracket for the #2 pipe, after I had mishandled the OEM one. I have not yet put the repro bracket on. Now I've noticed the repro bracket is thicker, heavier and so more rigid than the OEM one. I don't expect you can tweak it as easily as the original bracket if needed. So I have two options: either use the repro bracket and hope the best of it or remodel the OEM bracket back again to its original form by using the repro as a model.
I realise my question is a bit complex and can only hope I made myself understood.
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I've found directly the opposite, the repro brackets are less rigid and use a thinner metal then the original brackets. They will both fit both types BTW. I did find the repro brackets made the exhausts sit out of line on some of them. My BIL bought a set of repro brackets from DS and we ended up using my original brackets as templates to bend the back into shape. The lower brackets are the most out of line.
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I bought a set from CMS just as the pandemic struck in 2020 and they have sat in the garage since arrival, reading through this thread has worried me as although I looked at them I have not tried to fit them yet. They appeared to look alright individually, but until I fit them I won't know if they are alright. I also purchased a set of brackets from Andy Cepok in Germany, could this be fun in trying to fit them. :o
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I found fitting my Motad 400 exhaust really hard work getting four front pipes to fit squarely at the cylinder head then into the rear silencer 4 into 1 arrangement even though it had been fitted to the bike before strip down.
I did a dry run without any sealant & marked how far down the pipes need to go with a marker pen - when I dismantled it to add some sealant the re-fit did not go to plan. IIRC it took me a couple of hours of sweat and trying again before it suddenly decided to fit. I think the pipes just decided to submit.
I had changed the rear bracket for the original one as the old bracket had just the one bolt attached to the frame & I wanted two.
At least on the 500 type system its just two pipes from two manifolds with two brackets so that ought in theory to be easier on one level as it leaves wiggle room not a great start if the brackets are not right to begin with though? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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The key to getting the 4 into 4 system to hang right is to fit them with the end joints missing at first. Fit the lower one first, remember that this bracket goes behind the frame hanger, fit the manifold clamp and collets very loosely so the front can still move around but can’t fall. Now fit the upper exhaust, bracket now goes in front of the frame hanger, so one each side, fit the footrest loosely. Look at the balance pipe at the rear of the exhausts, they should be directly in line with a small gap between them. Now move the pipes to allow this to happen, make sure the downpipes aren’t touching the frame especially on the left side, one pipe goes behind the side stand bracket and one in front. Once everything lines up, nip up the lower manifold clamp to fix it in place, loosen off the upper pipe until you can fit the rubber balance pipe, realign the upper and tighten the footrest bolts first, then the manifold ones. If you’ve got it right everything should look aligned from the rear with no twisting in sight.
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Thanks Ken I've saved your fitting instructions for future use - interesting that some brackets are fitted behind the frame.
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Many thanks for the fitting tips Ken, I have printed of a copy to help when I do fit them.
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[...] ... and tighten the footrest bolts first, then the manifold ones. [...]
The idea is to avoid strain. So I have always thought that in the end, when everything is pretty well aligned, you tighten the manifold nuts in the front first and then the footrest as the latter's hole in the bracket, offer the assembly a little room to move.
Or, even better, prior to assembly, have the two 8mm nuts (on the inner side of the bracket) a bit loose and tighten them the very last, as at least one of the holes in the bracket, like the one for the 10mm bolt offers room for the assembly to move (see pic below). I've tested it and with the right wrench this can be done.
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You tighten the footrests first as they can sometimes move the exhausts into a different line, if you tightened the manifolds bolts before that it will cause the exhausts gaskets to leak as the force moves the exhaust header. A 10mm bolt will always exert more force than a 6mm bolt.
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You tighten the footrests first as they can sometimes move the exhausts into a different line, if you tightened the manifolds bolts before that it will cause the exhausts gaskets to leak as the force moves the exhaust header. A 10mm bolt will always exert more force than a 6mm bolt.
Then, if you don't mind me asking... why are two of the holes in the bracket shaped the way they are?
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To allow the bracket to be moved slightly to get a better alignment. It’s not the forward and backward alignment that changes when you tighten the 10mm bolt it’s the in/out alignment that changes, it’s this that twists the exhaust out of shape. How many exhausts have you seen where the jointing rubber is sitting at an angle. If the exhausts are properly aligned they are right above each other and that rubber is straight.
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I bought mine from DSS in May 2016. £850 including delivery and as I could have got them from CMS slightly cheaper they agreed to match the price. Pre B. Fitted them in April 17 after removing a original set with a few holes underneath that I managed to sell for £300.
Had a lot of trouble getting 1 & 2 on to my satisfaction with original brackets. Finally on, no 2 does not stick out but is not evenly spaced when viewed from front on. Bought some DSS aftermarket brackets and meant to revisit, but nearly six years, never have.
Other issue was with the main stand rubber stop which is on no 2 ended about 10mm out and I made a plate to suit.
But no other problems and they clean up like near new.
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Seconded for CMS
I got mine ftom there and they fitted well
Only issue was i had to mod the main stand bump stop slightly as it didn't line up but it was an easy mod
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My set was in boxes marked CMSNL.
Can't see them listed there at present. Strange. If I was buying a set now I would try Busso if they are double skinned.
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I don't think Busso make the original looking pipes, I think they just source them from the manufacturers who make them for CMS, I'd say they just do the reverse cone silencers themselves.
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I don't think Busso make the original looking pipes, I think they just source them from the manufacturers who make them for CMS, I'd say they just do the reverse cone silencers themselves.
Busso do manufacture the original style 4 into 4 pipes. People that I know have taken delivery of them recently and they're very impressed with the quality. They are double skinned also. I'll post a link in a while.
https://www.bussostore.com/en/collections/honda/products/marmitte-honda-replica-originali-cb500k0k1k2-four
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I don't see a single claim by Busso that says they make them. They do however sell at lot of replica bits clearly sourced from other websites, the exhaust clamps are from DS, as I suspect are the hanger brackets and the exhaust gaskets show Honda part numbers.
I'm left wondering why IF they make the original exhausts they bothered to make reverse cone copies. My opinion is they made these before copies became available again some years ago and kept selling them as they already had the tooling in place. The other things which makes me suspect they don't make them is why not just make the silencer part as they do for the reverse cone ones, they list downpipes for the 500 but it clearly states when you click on them that they are for the 350-4
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4-4 silencers have been available from Italian companies like Busso, Mecadapo and MIVV since long, Oddjob. Designed by them, they were not that expensive as you used the original headers. Relatively seen, it's not been that long that people became interested in buying the real stuff: the repro's that are identical to the originals. Customers are often older now, have more money and care less about the cost.
I've profited enormously when I bought four new OEM exhausts begin 90s. One dealer offered me two new exhausts for then € 40,- each. Was he making a loss? No, he was just annoyed with still having them in the basement of his store. Here's why. Back in the 70s quite some customers ordered a new CB500 Four on condition the dealer would replace the 4-4 by a 4-1, mind you before the bike even had left the showroom! So quite some dealers had OEM exhausts left over which had never been in use. A third one I got for € 60,-, again new. Also from a dealer who had got tired of storing it for a customer that would never come. The fourth I ordered new but with a 20% discount. After I had fitted these four new ones, the janitor was happy to buy my old set which had served some 75.000 km. I let him have them for € 50,- in total. All this illustrates how perception and appreciation can vary over the years...
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Just posting here again as in the new year I need to decide on an exhaust system. ATM the options are as follows.
1) Replica original - I have no brackets so this is going to be circa £1350 ish from DS with aftermarket brackets.
2) Marvin system £435 plus brackets?
3) SS Delkevic £350.
Does the Marvin system work on standard jets etc?
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Just posting here again as in the new year I need to decide on an exhaust system. ATM the options are as follows.
1) Replica original - I have no brackets so this is going to be circa £1350 ish from DS with aftermarket brackets.
2) Marvin system £435 plus brackets?
3) SS Delkevic £350.
Does the Marvin system work on standard jets etc?
If it was me Ted I would dig deep and go for the DS/CMS replicas. The additional cost is just an investment really as having them fitted will add that value onto your bike if you ever decided to sell IMHO
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Oddly enough my BiL has just visited - he talked me out of the Marvin option on the basis of it being neither fish nor flesh - in my heart I know the four pipe replica is the route makes sense in terms of parting with it in the future as Ash has said - as DS is UK based probably easier if there are any issues with transit damage.
I'm thinking even the chrome on a replica will outlive me - I should have kept my old system to get the bike up & running - it would be an ordeal to fit the four pipe system then have to take it all off if I sprung an oil leak on the block or head.
Another option might be to go for the Delkevic system to run the bike next summer then fit the 4-4 system next winter if all is well - might be a market for a hardly used Delkevic.
Anyone have a spare Delkevic for a 500 they want to part with?
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Hi, Ted. Personal choice as always, but I’d be inclined to go for the 4into 4. My mate had a Marvin way back in the late 70s. It sounded great initially, but after a few 50 mile round trips to college it all became something of an aural assault. He changed back to the 4 into 4 pretty quickly.
As for cost vs value vs aesthetic's, you know the drill…..
Merry Christmas.
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Even though you are probably out in the Ocean somewhere Phil I know you are right - it's going to be the 4 into 4.
How much better off I would be had I bought your 500 when the opportunity was there, that said as it's about the build more than the ride in my case. IIRC the new owner of your 500 has since sold it - must be a Teflon bike.
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Oddly enough Ted I think removing the original 4 into 4 is easier than doing a 4 into 1, you can do them one at a time, so less weight, you can just remove one if that's all that needed for whatever job you're doing, plus removing a single pipe means less chance of damage to the frame paintwork.
The other advantages are noise, the engine runs better, the final look, the ease of maintenance, some need removing to access the oil filter but they were old systems like the Piper, not sure if that's the case these days and the final advantage is it adds value, it doesn't take it away.
Don't forget the balance tubes at the rear as well as the brackets AND the stand rubber.
If I was giving one piece of advice to anyone fitting an original system it would be to check the side stand, if it's bent (and most are from hitting the road when it's left down) it will clobber the number 1 pipe as it goes up, eventually you'll have a nice little dent there which sort of ruins the look. Plus it scratches the chrome allowing rust etc to start to form. Same for the main stand, some reports of the copy systems not having the bump stop located correctly and this means it doesn't contact the stand correctly, best to check it does and fix the problem if it doesn't. This was on the first run of these pipes so maybe that fault was identified and fixed.
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Thanks Ken - I copied and pasted one of your previous posts about how to fit, order etc
Hang the cost I'm going for the 4/4 I know it makes sense. Am I right in thinking the exhaust is very quiet - just what I liked about my old 250 Dream.
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Yes Ted, very quiet until you really start the wring the engines neck, then a sort of muted howl starts, it's so nice you're tempted to keep the engine redlined just to hear it. At no point will your ears start to bleed. The neighbours will love you.
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As Ken has stated. The 4 x 4 sounds great when you give it the beans….really nice, without being antisocial.
Solomon Islands on the 17th January…..
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I do recall Honda's purring past my Scooters back in the day.👍👍👍
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I've just looked at the Busso copies again, I'm still of the opinion that they are just bought in, as in NOT made by them, to avoid anyone saying they've been making silencers for the 500 for many years I will admit they have been doing just that, however not these type, they didn't start to appear on their website until the 2nd set of copies made there appearance a few years ago now, the things that make me suspect they are just bought in copies is that they have gone to great lengths NOT to show the rear of the silencers, I strongly suspect that because they didn't want to show all the writing on the back of them, the same writing that Honda put on the 374 copies that didn't appear on the 323 copies, plus the engraving identifying them as 323 silencers is still there, just where the silencer meets the down pipe, IF it was being made by them why would they go to such trouble, plus they may have infringed copyright by doing that as it clearly say HM323, again the angle of the pictures is such that you struggle to make out the engraving but you can see it if you look closely.
I'm not saying what they are doing is wrong, far from it, they don't claim to make them, I've re-read the blurb repeatedly, all that infers they do is the reference to OUR collectors. The original manufacturers of these pipes is still using the same presses that were used to supply the original pipes to Honda, I've read reports these were sold to a Chinese company many years ago, whether the right to include the HM323 stamping was also transferred is not known, it may have been or maybe they came to an agreement with Honda to be able to use it.
The cost of the Busso system however is competetive, maybe even cheaper than CMS, not sure if the import duties would make them cheaper than DS though. Worthwhile comparing though Ted.
Just noticed one thing about the Busso version, at first read you think the price includes the 4 brackets and the balance rubbers and the stand rubber but when you really study it all is says is that they are available to buy, not that they are included in the price, be aware of that before buying.
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I too will be buying a set for lazarus, and have noticed Silvers lists 2 options, a bare set and one including the brackets, gaskets and rubber connectors for only £45 +vat so good value if you need the full lot. Assuming the exhausts are the same of course.
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I too will be buying a set for lazarus, and have noticed Silvers lists 2 options, a bare set and one including the brackets, gaskets and rubber connectors for only £45 +vat so good value if you need the full lot. Assuming the exhausts are the same of course.
Full Monty with brackets. ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry to be the prophet of doom here but some reports of the DS brackets not being exactly the ride shape (as in bend) to get the exhausts to hang correctly. I compared my original brackets with my BILs DS copies and had to rebend the DS ones so they matched the OE brackets, he couldn't get his exhausts to hang right at the back with the DS copy brackets, they hung right after being rebent to shape.
I seem to recall Ash doing a comparison some years ago which made me check the BILs when he popped round on the 500.
Get original IF you can find them is my advice.
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Ok here is my experience of the DSS 4/4. Mine have been fitted a while ago. Ordered in 2016 (£850 then), but not fitted until early 2017. Three problems: Had to bend the hanger (original Honda bracket) for the lower left to get it in place, Even then the hang at the front end was not entirely correct as the pipes spacing was a little uneven. (no one has spotted it but me): There was a leak of exhaust gas around the 8mm studs that come out of one or two of the silencers so I used a tiny amount of Gun Gum, solved: the main stand stop was about 2cm out, so I made a little extender plate.
Just taken them off for the first time after 6 1/2 years. Only covered 3500 miles but they are still in first rate condition and come up like new.
Ordered a set from Busso this year to assess their quality but their delivery is poor. Was promised 3 months and it's now been 6. Note: They charge 150 Euros for international shipping.
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Although my experience is much wider on the car front I know even factory original replacements often did not always fit perfectly on BLMC, Vauxhall's, Opel's, Audi's, Mitsubishi and Mercs brands.
Dam it the exhaust on my 400 was a pig to re-fit so I am expecting to have to either bend a bracket, widen a slot or fit a spacer - I see it as par for the course.
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The repro 4-4s seem to produce an even better sound than the OEM ones did, at least in my ears. I agree that the extra cost is more or less the same amount your bike will raise in value. The CB500 exhausts were by far the nicest, most elegant ones in the whole SOHC CB Four line. Next spring I hope to use my restorated CO-meter to fine tune each carb by monitoring each of the 4 exhaust and that is impossible with a 4-1. A trained ear can even hear/compare the differences in sound. It is how the bike has been designed originally.
I'm still trying to establish the best way to disassemble and... assemble them and by that I mean the working order. I have been helped much by Sohron, but unfortunately his info was not complete. At 2/3 from the beginning in: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=151576.0
Over the years I have put of and on mine (two sets) about six times in total. Sohron has made it clear that the top of both brackets (the upper and lower) is to be at the opposite side of the frame eye. That was new to me. Most of the years I have had them both on the outside of the frame eye and - although this is quite possible* - the result is not as nice as to have them on opposite sides.
I have been quite unfortunate with the 6mm studs in front. Many years ago I had been tempted to use my then new torque wrench. It worked fine, but I will not do it again. On later (dis)assemblies I was plagued by studs that either turned in the head or gave other problems. It was as if that torqueing in the past has had its toll later on. The studs seemed old and fatigued and quite a few needed to be replaced by time serts. By stupidity I have managed to mishandle the lower bracket LH side and as a consequence that side has both brackets on the outside again. Aaaargh! Although it's hardly noticeable, the result is the #2 pipe touches the sidestand mount and not all ten bolts in the oil pan are equally accessible. Maybe one should, before mounting the exhausts, also loosen the two nuts that secure the brackets to the pipes just enough, so they can slide a bit. The design of the holes in the brackets seem to suggest that. That's then another thing I have overlooked. Personally I'd hesitate to fasten the 8 nuts at the headers last. I have had more than enough of these studs going bad.
* One of our CB Four specialists in Holland doesn't bother. He just mounts both brackets on the outside of the frame eye.
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Revisiting the fit of the repro 4/4 today after 6 1/2 years as I have my original K0 to compare it with.
The sweep of No. 2 pipe is about 5mm too low along the underside of the bike. This causes the pipe to clash with the nut on the back of the sidestand so that the pipe is too far to the centre of the bike and runs closer to the oil filter case.
I can fit a half nut to the side stand but this will only help fractionally.
No idea if this is representative of pipes made today.
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I think you bought the first repro system that came out, it’s possible the later systems have been altered to avoid those problems, we’ll only really know when someone with a recent system fits it and gives feedback
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That’s what happened with me with the K3. Had been looking for a set for years when they finally came on the market I was quick to snap up a set. With the result I had to use a couple of ratchet straps to fit them.
And that was with the original brackets. Too quick to jump in but didn’t know how long they would be available at the time. Pleased with the quality though.
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[...] The sweep of No. 2 pipe is about 5mm too low along the underside of the bike. This causes the pipe to clash with the nut on the back of the sidestand so that the pipe is too far to the centre of the bike and runs closer to the oil filter case.[...]
What you describe, is exactly what I have and my exhausts are OEM. I blame it on my mishandling of the lower LH bracket which forced me to have both brackets on the outside of the frame eye again. However, having them both there, is not the cause in itself. I have had both brackets on the outside of the frame eye before for many years and then there was no problem. These exhausts need constant attention when you mount them. As I see it, everything must first be not completely fastened but pretty close to it. Always realise the studs in the front are the weakest of all fasteners. Before fastening, you need to inspect in particular how the #2 pipe runs near that mount of the side stand. Also see to it all ten oilpan bolts are accessible. The latter will always be a close matter, but, hey, that's the beauty of the design. :D
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Just to confirm delta, the brackets definitely go on opposite sides of the mount. A problem arises as if a lot of two up riding is done the mount can get bent.
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Just to confirm delta, the brackets definitely go on opposite sides of the mount.
Yep, I've learned this from Sohron. I remember asking him if his method would also apply for the CB500.
A problem arises as if a lot of two up riding is done the mount can get bent.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean. Is there a danger of bending with both on the same side or on opposite sides?
I'm asking because in the real world I have seen more CB500s having both brackets on the outside than on opposite sides.
The way Sohron suggests certainly gives the most elegant outcome. My RH side is perfect and the oilpan bolts on that side are just accessible.