Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: deltarider on January 06, 2024, 04:13:28 PM
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Replaced my brake pads by ones with more meat. Now I can't get the front wheel to spin as freely as I was used to. Brakes worked well before and the release was also good. Should I have used this tool (pic) to push back the piston somewhat before fitting the new pads? And if I do that, do I then need to open the bleeder or the brake fluid container at the handlebar? I have read the manual about 'drag', 'halve a turn', '0,15mm' etc. but for some reason I don't quite understand what that caliper adjust bolt does or is supposed to do. Can there be something wrong with that bolt?
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Yes you should have pushed the piston back, also remove the paint arround the outside of the pad.
It is also possible the seal groove is corroded and piston pitted which means a caliper stripdown
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As a quick thing,
Slacken the 2 caliper bolts
If you have a thin spanner, tyre lever,
Put it between disc and moving piston,
Tighten 2 bolts evenly
The piston should go into the caliper,
The brake fluid will just go into the master cylinder reservoir
Remove bit of metal,
Tighten the 2 bolts
Spin the wheel, check the pad is not rubbing
Them pump the brake lever,until the gap is normal
If this doesn't work,
Check the post from Bryan
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Thanks gents, appreciated. Yesterday clearly wasn't my brightest day. Later in the evening I thought of the same resolution John suggested.
It's winter and if needed I have still ample time for a caliper stripdown. But let me first check if I can arrive at the good working brake I had before. So far I didn't have problems with my brake.
Some 15 years ago an uncle (car mechanic) has honed where the piston sits somewhat. Piston was a bit pitted but according to him not that bad that it would need to be replaced.
I think there are two reasons my brake so far didn't need much work.
1) I never ride in rain, so less accumulation of dirt.
2) When in hibernation, say every 6 weeks, I roll my bike and apply the brake a couple of times.
A friend has another solution: he pushes the piston a bit back at the beginning of each hibernation.
Question: what can cause the pads wear like in the pic below? Should I maybe be more precise in aligning the activated pad to the disk or is the wear shown in the pic not abnormal? The reaction pad has that hump in the back, so that one will adept.
The pads are by EBC and as you can see, I chamfered them.
I had the disk of and I checked with a feeler gauge: no warp. In the international forum there's much talk about sanding the disk for improved braking. So far I have not read what with, like what # grit.
Any suggestions?
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Those pads look ok
The bit filed away is to stop squealing
Use A LITTLE coppa slip around the moving pad and on the hump of the fixed pad,
Could also help
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Those pads look ok
The bit filed away is to stop squealing
Use A LITTLE coppa slip around the moving pad and on the hump of the fixed pad,
Could also help
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Ha! That's exactly what I did! I have this little 35 year old tube with coppa paste, and although the cap has been missing for more than 30 years, it comes out just as easy. Amazing stuff. I used it sometimes on sparkplugs threads and always on the two big bolts in the caliper and the 8mm studs at the bottom of the front legs.
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Did I read somewhere that the solution to stop brake squeaks is to shim the piston/ pad? Maybe a myth…
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Yes a myth.
Slight pitting 15 years ago means a new piston now to me PLUS as has been discussed many times a new seal with the groove meticulously cleaned out.
As far as i am concerened brakes have to be perfect as we only have one neck to break
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For clarity, the attached is bollox?
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/brake_ills.html
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For clarity, the attached is bollox?
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/brake_ills.html
For clarification
On the 500,a nylon washer which fits between the pad and piston is often included with new pads
But what it does is a mystery,
I tend to find, the harder you use the brake, the less squeal you get
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[...] On the 500,a nylon washer which fits between the pad and piston is often included with new pads
But what it does is a mystery, [...]
I suppose it is there to dampen vibration and - as a consequence - reduce sqeal.
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For clarity, the attached is bollox?
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/brake_ills.html
For clarification
On the 500,a nylon washer which fits between the pad and piston is often included with new pads
But what it does is a mystery,
So does the 550. I’, gonna give the recommendation a try using thin s/s sheet with corrugations.
I tend to find, the harder you use the brake, the less squeal you get
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A long read and a few points are not total bollox,
1 all the fours had the nylon washer from new and i think genuine replacements came with a new one but aftermarket didnt
2 discs warp due to heat but i have never seen a stainless, standard, honda disc warp
3 never ever seen a gasket between disc and mounting
4 silicone fluid can be used but only if the total system has been stripped out and meticulously cleaned along with new hoses, glycol fluid(dot 3) is fine when it is changed every 2cyears like its suposed to be(but who does?)
5 50 year old brake systems are definately not as good as modern ones, get used to it
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Good info, Bryan.
What would be your favourite fluid: DOT 4 or 5.1, both not silicone.
What is the best piston option, material wise? A stainless steel will not corrode, but could it be harmful for the caliper due to eventual electrolysis?
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Just some points to consider.
Mike Nixon was a trained manufacturer instructor. When mechanics go on training courses he's the guy who's training those mechanics in proper procedure and the manufacturers thoughts on problems that the training was there to try and cure. Not only was he a trained Honda instructor, he was also a trained Kawasaki instructor IIRC. As such he'd have had access to information from the manufacturers that mechanics, even trained mechanics wouldn't. This I feel qualifies him to pass on this information which should be at the very least be considered for thoughtful consideration. Far too many people think that because it doesn't match exactly with they think that they should either ignore it or start to criticise it. I'm not saying his word is gospel, just that it should be seriously considered.
Some of the points raised may not be 100% Honda, some may be things which happened whilst at Kawasaki. I think he adds them just in case they will be of use to others reading his thoughts.
I personally didn't find it a long read, short in fact considering the subject matter. I've been on training courses that spent 7 hours on a subject that should really have been 2 hours at most and that would include a hands on training part.
As Mike says the nylon washer was fitted to dampen vibration . Where I think he went wrong was in his description of it as a gasket. What I think he was saying is that it's possible to fit an alternative where a washer that thick would be a problem, something much thinner is required and he found some plastic coated cardboard worked as well but didn't last as long as the nylon washer.
Same things apply to fitting a similar gasket between the disc and the hub, it was fitted to later models but not to the SOHC bikes AFAIK, it just dampens out the metal to metal vibration and may be of use to even some SOHC bikes, just because Honda didn't fit it doesn't mean it can't be of use. TBH not a point I had considered but worthwhile information I think.
I found the brake fluid page very informative, didn't consider going silicone myself but after reading his thoughts on the subject, especially the lack of use these bikes are subject to these days, it may be something that you should at least give some consideration. All my brake parts are new so for me going silicone will be easy. However if you're one of those who insist on having original rubber brake hoses I can see why that might be a problem. However you now have some information that may make you feel you should reconsider that stance.
As for disc warpage, Bryan is correct, I personally haven't seen a SOHC disc warp but did see other manufacturers discs warp, Suzuki for instance. But they were later models, in the 80s for instance when discs were getting thinner and thinner. As Mike says, the lack of metal due to their thinness meant they overheated easily, this caused them to warp, hence why they started to mount the discs on bobbins, to allow this to happen but the bobbins would try and allow the disc to straighten out afterwards. As Mike says, it doesn't always work.
Interesting to note Mike saying sintered or ceramic pads work much better on these old stainless discs than the softer organic pads, these old systems were great back in the day but compared to modern brakes they appear to be really bad, getting them to work better and for longer whilst retaining safety is always a good idea. That may involve fitting a second front disc or maybe having them slotted or drilled, fitting different composition pads which weren't available back in the 70s, maybe fitting different lines like braided to try and avoid the expansion of the old rubber hoses, a different MC maybe, more fluid for less pressure? All points to consider.
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I have been buying stainless piston with new sel as a kit from honda classics going direct rather than ebay, as to fluid i use what i have in stock, which at moment is dot 4 i think, bought 5 litres when i was having problems with my mates 1500 trike and still got a fair bit left, got it cos i was offered a deal after buying mannol oil from fleabay, using several different grades for the family "fleet"
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With all due respect and at risk of being blasphemous, may I dare ask this:
if chamfering does not help, why did Honda chamfer them? (see pic)
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Chamfering is common in the automotive industry. I was led to believe it helped in bedding in pads & reduced brake squeal.
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Chamfering is common in the automotive industry. I was led to believe it helped in bedding in pads & reduced brake squeal.
Yep, that's what I was told. It just happens to deviate from what's in that quoted post...
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When Citroen come out with the big CX model that had the high pressure pump brake system the brakes would sometimes squeal a their answer was to put finger marks of coppaslip either side of the DISC, yes that is the disc braking surface and it did work, i believe the theory was the copper got into the micro holes in the friction matterial stopping the squeak.
I WOULD NOT SUGGEST THIS FOR ANY MOTORCYCLE, cars have four wheels and only fall over if heavily provoked
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With all due respect and at risk of being blasphemous, may I dare ask this:
if chamfering does not help, why did Honda chamfer them? (see pic)
I would suspect they were chamferred from new because as Ted says it helped bedding in of the pads. I would also suspect that what Mike is saying about doing it after doesn't really work is that the problem lies elsewhere and the chamfering doesn't cure the squealing but the fact that to do this means disturbing the braking system and it's that which cures the squeal and people then think it's the chamfering that has done it. He could be wrong, it could be that he's tried it himself and it didn't work for him or it could be that it only works for certain types of squealing caused by a specific fault.
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Chamfering originally was for the 2ls drum brakes, to prevent grab,
It could do a similar job with the leading edge of the pads,
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My dad always chamfered his drum brakes, single leading shoe, bike and car.
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We'll soon have an answer.
Long time ago I have removed my unchamfered EBC brakepads, because they sqealed like hell, inspite of ATE grease being used. Now that my OEM Honda pads are at the red line, I have reinstalled the EBC pads which I now have chamfered. Next spring I'll report.
I'd like to grab the occasion to come to advised steps regarding reinstalling brakepads that have been in use before, but that are nowhere near the servicable limit. As you can see in the pic they are not worn perfectly even.
Let me try.
I have installed brake pad A, the one at the piston. Realise that this one can not do - wiggle somewhat - what pad B can do as the latter has this slight hump at the back. However I want first to align pad A to the disk as perfectly as possible to have the best starting point. How do I approach this?
The part of the caliper that holds pad B is still dissassembled for the time being.
I've looked for instructions, but although I have quite some manuals and articles, I haven't found the answer in steps I can follow. As you know I'm an amateur and depend on knowledge professionals have.
Thanks in advance.
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These caliper are a hybrid design with swing/radius placement as they pivot on the arm, not often seen in other design now. Virtually everything now moves in parallel/sliding orientation.
The pads will wear ultimately into a wedge shape during use based on the radius of the arm. They ordinarily start approximately parallel (faces of pad to disc) with the arm position dictated by the non active pad, and the active pad more or less fully "retracted" into it's bore. From then onwards in their life they will accumulate wear that forms a wedge as the arm moves across it's arc through adjustment of the screw to take up wear of that non active pad.
Putting the same pair back into the caliper shouldn't be a problem as the wear status will still be correct for the arm geometry when last used in that part worn state.
Basic consideration (fulfilled by this design too) is to keep the back of the pad FULLY in contact with the hydraulic piston. This to facilitate consistent pressure across all of the pad from your hydraulic action of pulling the lever.
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OK,first slacken the adjustment screw on the fork leg,ensure the caliper support arm moves freely,
The fit the caliper, but loosely,
The fit a flat spacer,about 2 or 3mm thick between the moving pad,now tighten the 2 bolts, when tight, loosen them and remove spacer,then retighten,
The wheel should spin easily, and the caliper swing aswell,
Turn adjustment until the pad just barely touches the disc,then back off Quarter turn,
Pump the brake, should be perfect
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Thanks gentlemen. I'll report back.
[...]
Basic consideration (fulfilled by this design too) is to keep the back of the pad FULLY in contact with the hydraulic piston. This to facilitate consistent pressure across all of the pad from your hydraulic action of pulling the lever.
That was and still is exactly my concern. I had not figured out a method - a following order - yet, but I will try what John suggests.
Back in the day these EBC* FA 13 made in Holland pads were quite popular. They are 'semi-metallic', but I have no idea what that means. I remember they were not chamfered at all and offered more 'meat' than OEM pads. They lack the red wear lines OEM pads have.
* European Brake Corporation
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I think the semi metallic pads were an idea to cut wet weather lag,
The minute metal pieces would cut through the water, and help the pad grip,
A personal note, the recent grey EBC pads I found terrible,
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"Mettalic" pads were the first idea after asbestos was supposedly banned
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"Mettalic" pads were the first idea after asbestos was supposedly banned
Yep, package said NON ASBESTOS. I wonder if semi-metallic pads can harm disks?
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Yes, they wear them
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Thanks Bryan. Are ceramic like these (pic) better in that respect?
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Metal in pads has ordinarily been iro, steel, copper among main ingredients.
Ceramic info https://www.samaterials.com/content/what-is-a-ceramic-brake-pad.html they seem to offer less absolute wear when used with stainless disc material.
They MAY need higher pressure/load to match other types.
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These old Hondas with SS Discs were designed for use with original pads that would have been asbestos based.
I agree with Bryan that pads containing metal do wear discs - this is reflected in how replacement discs have become much more frequent on cars. My experience was on W124 Mercs where discs back in 1984/5 would last 90k miles. The removal of asbestos more than halved the typical disc life to arround 35-40k miles.
This article is interesting although it might not apply completely to SS discs.
https://www.bridgestonetire.com/learn/maintenance/ceramic-vs-metallic-brake-pads/#
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Never fitted ceramic so cant comment
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I have had ceramic pads on my 1300 for some years now. I find them far superior to organic pads, far less dust, slower to warm up but resist heat fade much better, they also make less noise than sintered and less dust than those as well. They are so good I intend to use them on my 500 and have already bought 2 sets.
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I have had ceramic pads on my 1300 for some years now. I find them far superior to organic pads, far less dust, slower to warm up but resist heat fade much better, they also make less noise than sintered and less dust than those as well. They are so good I intend to use them on my 500 and have already bought 2 sets.
Let me know what they are like,
Would be interested in using them,
With standard discs
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I'm particularly interested in the effect they have on the disk. Having read what Bryanj posted, I've changed my mind. I will not use those EBC pads and will get them out again. It's so long ago they were in use, that I had forgotten the sqealing hadn't been the only reason I didn't like them: back then I also had the feeling they were eating the disk. For the time being I will refit the OEM ones, until I have learned more on the ceramic pads. Also I still don't know what piston - if needed - would be the best option: SS or the chrome OEM one. I'd like also to know what Trigger's opinion is on this.
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SS, as the piston doesn’t touch the calliper it won’t cause any problems with the interaction between SS and alloy.
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SS, as the piston doesn’t touch the calliper it won’t cause any problems with the interaction between SS and alloy.
Although not touching the alloy in a torqued state, like a bolt, the risk is still there.
It's facilitated by electrolyte (water and salt) to cause migration between the two and corrode the aluminium. There's absolutely no weather protection on these caliper, no cover or seal and no bellows type mitigation to prevent ingress.
Silicone grease is specifically demanded right from the first 750 caliper in Honda manual, this effectively giving protection from it's hydrophobic properties.
Clean and used with this grease, then none of the materials will have a problem.
I'd use stainless if there's well made component available.
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My observation about brake squeal on these bikes would be that it is just the way things are and we just put up with it. I like to think it is just an indication that something is actually happening.
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My observation about brake squeal on these bikes would be that it is just the way things are and we just put up with it. I like to think it is just an indication that something is actually happening.
Most of the time (about 95%) in over 43 years I had no sqealing whatsoever. It occured most with those EBC pads.
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On the DS pads mine were silent for the first 100 miles then squeak started. Now on different pads so will not know until I ride my 400 again in the Spring.
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That was my point Nigel, the piston doesn’t really touch the caliper, it’s suspended by the seal, the bottom of it, tbh the far bigger part is covered by brake fluid, the pad should be greased along it’s outer edge to allow it to slide back and too, this should mean that water/salt ingress is kept to a minimum or not at all.
As for squealing, I had twin discs fitted with genuine Honda pads and they never uttered a noise in many thousands of miles. It’s possible the noise could be a sign of lack of lubrication in the caliper/pivot setup.