Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Oddjob on January 10, 2024, 03:39:34 PM
-
Just ordered 4 sets of genuine CB550 0.5mm piston rings from CMS, listed by their part number of 12031-374-000. Priced at £32.50 a set.
They have just been delivered and they are in RK boxes with a Honda part number sticker attached, as in, NOT genuine. I was willing to pay a premium price for genuine rings and could get a set of rings from Cruzinimage for $15 a set if I wanted pattern parts.
I've emailed them ask why they have deceived me into paying premium prices for pattern parts.
I've got to say I feel cheated here.
Just be warned if you are ordering rings from CMS.
-
I think RK or Rikken were one of the suppliers to Honda Ken, i seem to remember different part numbers in the book for different suppliers
-
I think RK or Rikken were one of the suppliers to Honda Ken, i seem to remember different part numbers in the book for different suppliers
This ^. Even the tools in your genuine toolbag were by RK inspite of the Honda logo. I doubt CMSNL would risk their reputation. I find them very, very correct.
-
I don't think you will go wrong with genuine Riken rings Ken. Same with ART pistons. Not sure that Cruzin are the same quality as the genuine Riken items. Having said this, Yamiya sell 750 Riken rings a way lot cheaper than CMS and don't badge them as Honda. I just wish Yamiya would start selling 500/550 parts.
-
The rings are made by RIK not RK as I first detailed. CMS have responded with a statement saying if the packaging is really bad they will rebox them but these a genuine RIK boxes, brand new, look like they were made yesterday. They’ve asked for pics and have also said they had sent genuine rings so we’ll see what happens now. In my experience of fitting hundreds of sets of genuine Honda rings they came either in red boxes with the part number on the edge and the Honda wing on the top/bottom or if they were re manufactured rings in white boxes with a genuine Honda part number with the Honda sign on it on the top.
-
I once ordered four genuine needle jets kits from CMS, two came in sealed Honda bags and two were supplied in zip lock bags which were not genuine as could be seen by comparison.
Anyhow I complained and was told that they were repackaged because the original bags were damaged.
Aye right...
-
I don't think you will go wrong with genuine Riken rings Ken. Same with ART pistons. Not sure that Cruzin are the same quality as the genuine Riken items. Having said this, Yamiya sell 750 Riken rings a way lot cheaper than CMS and don't badge them as Honda. I just wish Yamiya would start selling 500/550 parts.
Mike Nixon doesn't rate Cruzinimage rings at all, reckons they are almost out of spec within less than 10K miles and that was with a really tight bore done. Reckons they are really soft metal in comparison to the Honda rings.
I wish Yamiya would as well Ash.
-
Mike Nixon doesn't rate Cruzinimage rings at all, reckons they are almost out of spec within less than 10K miles and that was with a really tight bore done. Reckons they are really soft metal in comparison to the Honda rings.
I wish Yamiya would as well Ash.
That's interesting Ken. Where did you read that .. was it from the USA site? Just glad now that I have always stuck to my guns and used Genuine or Riken branded rings. I did see somewhere that the problem was more related to big bore kits they sell , but who knows. I am not sure what IMD sell either. I currently need a STD piston for my CB250RSA single. I got the genuine rings and NOS are pretty thin on the ground, IMD sell their own brand ones but I need to use with NOS barrels, so a bit wary about using an aftermarket piston that has not been matched to a rebore.
-
I don't think you will go wrong with genuine Riken rings Ken. Same with ART pistons. Not sure that Cruzin are the same quality as the genuine Riken items. Having said this, Yamiya sell 750 Riken rings a way lot cheaper than CMS and don't badge them as Honda. I just wish Yamiya would start selling 500/550 parts.
Mike Nixon doesn't rate Cruzinimage rings at all, reckons they are almost out of spec within less than 10K miles and that was with a really tight bore done. Reckons they are really soft metal in comparison to the Honda rings.
I wish Yamiya would as well Ash.
Thats a bit of an odd one, and would need more comprehensive detail to understand if true or not.
A ring's life will ordinarily encounter most of its wear at first stages of use, correct hone and tolerance will see the most amount of metal removed in these initial miles run. As the honed edges come off the bore surface that should reduce very significantly, ultimately to nothing significant over the rest of it's life. It's the byproduct of this that gives reason to change the oil at short interval after "running in" then move to normal planned service schedule.
It would need more clear comparison of the wear characteristic with a "genuine" product over exactly the same set of conditions to validate. Rings are less likely to be inspected at intervals to see that wear in reality, without which it's not of qualified definition.
If any ring wear in service is high the first suspect is mixture, too rich will seriously impact oil film that supports good bore /ring lubrication. Presumably that was accounted for in the assessment. Short runs, typical use profile etc.
Rings aren't particularly "hard" generally as they need to wear by honing action in providing a competent seal. You'd expect to see at least some measure by comparison to make that statement, Rockwell hardness testing, or similar.
You'd expect to find the most wear on rings within a 5000 most from new range in typical materials engineering from this period. Unless there's other empirical records that can comprehensively back it up, I'd be suspicious of that general view and especially from small sample.
-
I think Nigel he is going off experience with using Cruzinimage rings rather than testing hardness in a lab, it's my experience though that the cheaper the product the more likely it is to be inferior to the dearer product. I read in one of Mikes posts about him removing a piston after just 5k miles and finding they'd worn considerably, on a bore that he'd done to Hondas specs, as in really really tight. As you say though it's a difficult thing to say what caused that wear, however it should be easy enough to test as ring wear should show in the compression readings, test after fitting, test again after say 3k and then do periodic tests to see how the figures compare.
As the old saying goes, you tend to get what you pay for and Cruzinimage do seem suspiciously cheaper in comparison to other brands.
-
Here an anecdote that tells how accurately CMSNL operates. Some years ago, I have ordered some parts from them, the most important of which was that lovely repro grabrail. I had added some extra parts to get at free shipping, including two 8mm locknuts for the chain adjuster, as the originals were becoming somewhat rounded. Back then CMSNL offered I don't know how many different qualities. I found this strange and amusing*, but in good humour I took the effort to check the partlist and so ordered the original 2x 94002-08000-0S ones. I mean, why not?
Anytime thereafter when I checked my order, I got the message 'pending' over and over again. In the end I phoned them to ask what particular part was so difficult to get. It turned out those stupid OEM nuts were in backorder (Japan) and had put the delivery of my order on hold. I asked if they could send the rest because those nuts were of no real interest to me. Next day the rest of my order arrived and the two nuts were later sent to me in an envelope, no extra costs.
* I've checked their site yesterday and have seen that now the other of nut options - there had been at least five! - are no longer there.
-
I think you’re missing the point. If you’d ordered the genuine 8mm nuts, paid for genuine 8mm nuts and then found they’d sent you the cheaper 8mm nuts but still charged you for the genuine 8mm nuts you’d feel what I feel now.
Strangely CMS have gone silent on the matter, they responded to my first email within 20 minutes but since getting the pictures showing clearly they’d sent non genuine parts, whilst still charging for genuine parts, they haven’t responded. It’s now 2 days and nothing to explain why they did that.
I’m now stuck in limbo, I’ve now found another source of genuine rings from 2 different sources as no one has 4 sets but can’t order them until CMS respond.
I’ve always rated CMS but this is concerning, how many would know this had happened and thus have been overcharged for cheaper parts. I’ve had parts from both CMS and DS. that were not in their original packaging but so long as I was certain they were genuine I wasn’t that bothered. I’ve also had parts from DS labelled as a part number by DS that turned out to be wrong, a set of fork ears for a CB550F2 which had F2 written in felt on the bag that turned out to be off a CB750F2 instead. By the time I found that out it was far to late to return them for a refund.
-
Well it appeared that CMS were intent on just ignoring this matter until I sent an email saying I’d take the matter up with Honda, claiming selling genuine Honda and sending aftermarket would get their attention I’d imagine.
Got a response almost immediately after sending that email, saying they’ve passed it onto their technician and also the warehouse so they can check the stock.
We’ll see what comes of that shortly.
If they claim that Rikken are the original suppliers for Honda (as some suspect) I’m not sure what I’ll do, the reason we fit genuine parts is because we get a sort of guarantee from Honda of quality etc, fitting OE parts is almost the same except you don’t know for certain that the original Honda specs are being met now when these are made. Even so the price should be lower, you don’t pay the same as original for aftermarket
-
As suspected here is the CMS response.
We have check all remaining piston ring set that we have on stock.
All of them are in the RIKEN packaging. I contacted our product manager regarding this case. He informed me that RIKEN is OEM supplier for some of the Honda piston rings. These rings were released with either Honda packaging or RIKEN packaging. The quality is 100% the same in both cases and it is not cheaper reproduction item.
They have offered to take them back, any ideas?
-
Riken a very competent engineering supply company (older than Honda I believe) that have supplied huge number of piston rings into manufacturer as OEM.
Likely you've already used them, unknown in identity, before now. Can't see anything wrong with the background and performance you're probably going to get.
-
As suspected here is the CMS response.
We have check all remaining piston ring set that we have on stock.
All of them are in the RIKEN packaging. I contacted our product manager regarding this case. He informed me that RIKEN is OEM supplier for some of the Honda piston rings. These rings were released with either Honda packaging or RIKEN packaging. The quality is 100% the same in both cases and it is not cheaper reproduction item.
They have offered to take them back, any ideas?
Depends on the price Ken as they will be exactly the same quality as Honda OEM IMHO. You are against a brick wall with these people .. Yamiya are worse and spit their dummy out if you dare to question anything they sell. I once bought some carb top rubbers from Yamiya for RJP750 on here and questioned that they were not correct for a K0, so they cancelled a 500 quid order with dozens of items on it rather than remove them from the order that included them with no explanation.
-
TBH even buying new rings in a Honda packet is not going to be the identical steel mix used originally unless it's NOS from the period.
My understanding of OEM by the original manufacturer is that it's as close as you will ever get today.
-
I still don't get what the problem is. If I'd order exhausts valves and would receive them in Mitsubishi packaging, I would not worry about anything. Mitsubishi was also a subcontractor and their valves are in about every combustion engine.
-
Might as well give them a try and see how they perform.
-
I've decided to keep the rings, however I'm not happy with CMS. Genuine means genuine, not OEM, even DS makes the distinction and his prices reflect that fact.
I have however warned CMS that I'll be bringing the matter to Honda UKs attention, Honda are quite aggressive at defending their brand name, anyone selling parts as genuine when they aren't, even if they are from the same manufacturer (and TBH we only have that information from CMS, although it may well be true but only Honda know for sure) they are not genuine Honda parts and I feel the price they are charging should reflect that.
-
I've decided to keep the rings, however I'm not happy with CMS. Genuine means genuine, not OEM, even DS makes the distinction and his prices reflect that fact.
I have however warned CMS that I'll be bringing the matter to Honda UKs attention, Honda are quite aggressive at defending their brand name, anyone selling parts as genuine when they aren't, even if they are from the same manufacturer (and TBH we only have that information from CMS, although it may well be true but only Honda know for sure) they are not genuine Honda parts and I feel the price they are charging should reflect that.
Well said, I absolutely agree wholeheartedly with that.
-
Well after a very lengthy phone call with Honda UK I can confirm they will be taking this matter up with CMS, they are asking for photos of the rings, copies of the emails etc and have said they'll be passing the matter onto to Honda head Office to keep them advised of the situation.
-
Good on you Ken many would not bother.
-
TBH Ted if they'd said oh we made a mistake, we'll let you have them for half price I'd have been happier.
As it turns out I doubt I'll be using them for a long while, managed to source 5 sets of standard 550 rings to go with my new set of barrels, measured them today with a bore gauge and they look to be almost perfect with very little wear. They all measured 58.5mm which is the standard bore size. When the new rings arrive I'll pop a ring down and see what the end gap looks like.