Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: Erwin83 on November 25, 2016, 08:09:42 AM

Title: CB466f
Post by: Erwin83 on November 25, 2016, 08:09:42 AM
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Update on page 7!

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I've introduced myself here:
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,11327.msg84751.html#msg84751

Will continue in this thread with my project updates.

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Hey guys,

just wanted to show you my re-upholstered Giuliari seat. The guy who did this is a real artist (www.toniworks.nl).
My original seat cover was ripped, torn, etc. so needed to be re-done. The choice was to go for an original-as-possible new cover, but we had a one hour brainstorm and came up with a plan to give it a little custom twist (as my bike is also almost original, but with a twist).

I'm super excited with the result:

(https://myalbum.com/photo/0VbXmOr2pC4M/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/cU3q5cxskO7I/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/oM4zCMgotG1Z/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/pYN6FWPAHTrw/1k0.jpg)


I'll make some better pictures with a decent camera later, but I couldn't wait  ;D
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: mike the bike on November 25, 2016, 09:14:27 AM
Nothing wrong with those pics.  The quality of that seat is outstanding.   Is that leather or 'other materials'  ?   
If you don't mine me asking, how much did that come to?  I've fitted a genuine BMW seat cover to my K75 but it's a bit thin and has punctured so I'm interested in something like yours,  maybe next year.
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: Erwin83 on November 25, 2016, 09:48:38 AM
Nothing wrong with those pics.  The quality of that seat is outstanding.   Is that leather or 'other materials'  ?   
If you don't mine me asking, how much did that come to?  I've fitted a genuine BMW seat cover to my K75 but it's a bit thin and has punctured so I'm interested in something like yours,  maybe next year.

I actually paid a little bit too less. He quoted me before we did the brainstorm, and the amount of work (logo's + diamond stitching) came to more then he anticipated (there is around 12 hours of work in this seat). But he was enthusiastic about the design and came through for the original price.
This should cost around 400 euro's including material (again, I paid less).
The cool thing is, that you can be done for 200 euro, getting a "standard" seat cover without anything custom, and you can make more budget for all the custom work as you like. For instance embroidery for logo's is quite expensive work, which is why we went for this 'rough' cutting and stitching of logo's, but with all the small cuting work there was still a lot of time required.

The material is "synthetic leather" (is it called skai in UK too?). With this guy, you can pick whatever material you like because he has specimen, much like when you buy new furniture.

I don't think real leather is very common on seats due to the influence of rain.
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: Piki on November 25, 2016, 01:57:32 PM
Good Job mate!!! I have Stencils for Giuliari 750 Four Seats, if there any interested about it, contact me
Best Regards.
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: Pops400 on November 25, 2016, 03:38:27 PM
That looks great
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: Erwin83 on November 25, 2016, 06:49:13 PM
(https://myalbum.com/photo/xZU1RbJg13YC/1k0.jpg)
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: MarkCR750 on November 25, 2016, 09:28:15 PM
That seat looks fantastic!
Title: Re: Giuliari seat with a twist
Post by: Erwin83 on November 26, 2016, 11:00:35 AM
 8) thanks!
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on March 29, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
Update on my three-fiddy:

Changed the silencers for shorter ones, because the red-tips just came in too long to my taste:
I went for the peashooter style "hooligan" cans (little did I know this name reverts to the sound):

(https://myalbum.com/photo/d8VvVRnjYeER/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/f0wtanfHp8mN/1k0.jpg)


Especially the 3/4 from the front is much better in shape, where the old red cans just stuck out way too far.
See:
(https://myalbum.com/photo/Pg6LvyQYsozF/1k0.jpg)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on March 29, 2017, 03:19:07 PM
And those with very sharp eye sight may have noticed in the previous pic, I added one pig-watcher on the left handle bar.
It seemed cool to have no mirrors (and no indicators for that matter), but after many miles on my more modern bike, I felt handicapped without a mirror...
So went for a simple black bar-end mirror.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: MarkCR750 on March 29, 2017, 05:07:55 PM
Looks good with those pipes, much neater.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Mag1 on April 01, 2017, 11:11:43 AM
Very nice workmanship there, top quality. Did your seat upholster supply the foam also?. Bike is a cracker also, very nice
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Johnwebley on April 01, 2017, 11:22:58 AM
very cool,

 the seat and exhaust look good,are the exhausts paired 1-2 and 3-4 ?

how does it run and sound ?


Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on April 02, 2017, 08:40:58 PM
Nice spring day in holland today, so went out for some fun.

(https://myalbum.com/photo/vAWYdWcG1sAM/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/u3hiueNIYgvT/1k0.jpg)

(https://myalbum.com/photo/7x5BfoYasJFG/1k0.jpg)

Thanks for the compliments all! Much appreciated.

The sound is... LOUD. Less of a screamer compared to a 4-1.
I would say pretty similar in tone compared to my old (inside) rotten 4-4, but without the rattle of rot ;-)
Pretty deep tone down low and really winds up higher up in the revs.

It's pared 1-2 / 3-4 indeed, with custom made Y pieces on each side of the frame.
It's similar to the 4 in 4 of the 350. Those are connected too, albeit a bit further back in the silencer.
After the Y pieces come a standard connection pipe with a 30-ish degree angle. Then comes the silencer.
Headers are original (chopped) of the 4in4.


It runs OK in the higher revs, but it won't idle comfortable yet. Also from idle away it needs feeding in order not to stall.
However I still need to make real work of the carb settings. Fiddling with that every ride now.


With regards to the seat: the upholsterer also did a renewal of the foam, but this being a original giuliari seat, means the bump is actually metal. There's a little storage space back there too.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on April 29, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
So, today a nice spring day in Holland. Decided to use it for some tinkering on the cb.
I set the valve clearance and replaced the ignition contact last week. So rode around to get some heat in the bike and connected my meters.

It turned out she was really waaaaay out of sync.
What a difference this makes!

I think i have the sync quite well now:

https://goo.gl/photos/MgckXHc2oFSr8Ygt5

Idle is good. Revs are good.
Nice popping and brapping in the exhaust when throttle is closed.

Only improvement should be the pick-up from idle to throttle. It feels like it dies and needs some throttle play to run in revs.
Any advice?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: MarkCR750 on April 29, 2017, 06:06:10 PM
Are you running a standard air box and filter?, it could be a little lean if not, that would give poor pick up on acceleration, are the float heights correct?, do you carbs have an accelerator pump like the CB750, maybe not but if they do check that it's delivering jets of fuel when the throttle is twisted quickly, what's it like on hills? Oh hang on you're in Holland you wouldn't know would you 😄.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on April 29, 2017, 09:33:17 PM
Hi mark,

Yes carb settings are all standard, carbs newly built with new jets and needles, etc.. I'm also running a standard filter and airbox. Only thing different from a standard cb400f is the exhaust (open 4-2, see pics).
A cb350/400 does not have an acceleration pump btw.

After synchronising, i haven't played around with the airscrews at all. They be a bit far out.
Is a bad pick-up from idle "typical" for a lean idle?
If so, which way is leaner, which way is richer (clockwise, anti-clockwise)?
I would say, clockwise is close, so less air, so richer. But i can't really find this info.

Thanks for the advice.

Erwin
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: kevski on April 29, 2017, 10:09:13 PM
Screw should be around 7/8 of a turn out + or - 3/8 of a turn my own 350 are 1 turn out.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on April 29, 2017, 10:52:03 PM
Screw should be around 7/8 of a turn out + or - 3/8 of a turn my own 350 are 1 turn out.

Thanks. But i'm running a 400cc engine with the 400 carbs etc.
For the 400, screws should be 2 +/- 0,5 turn out, if i remember correctly.
But those are numbers from the book. Not sure how strict that is.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: kevski on April 30, 2017, 06:57:23 AM
I just see you are running open pipes, this can affect the running as no back pressure, you may need to increase the size of the pilot jets to compensate, the information for the air screws is correct and turning them in will increase the fuel at low engine speeds but may not be enough.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on April 30, 2017, 08:54:48 AM
I just see you are running open pipes, this can affect the running as no back pressure, you may need to increase the size of the pilot jets to compensate, the information for the air screws is correct and turning them in will increase the fuel at low engine speeds but may not be enough.

Thanks Kevski! Quite helpful.
I think i have the screws all leaned out now at 2,5 out.
So let me first try to make idle somewhat richer by turning everything in again. After syncing, i have not played with the air screws at all.

With regards to the lack of back pressure, isn't that something that especially plays a role at higher revs?
I'm actually quite happy with how she runs higher up.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: kevski on April 30, 2017, 04:01:16 PM
The air screws are what the pilot circuit is metered by with them maxed out and open exhaust you are leaned right out giving you the poor running at low revs take them in a bit at a time and see what it gives you, you need some back pressure even at low revs to run smoothly.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on May 21, 2017, 06:38:41 PM
Changed the float level to 24mm now..... And we've got reliable idle!
Also a nice coffee brown color on the plug.

Turns out i also had a broken coil lead on pot 2. Did a bush-fix with a small screw, will order new replacement coils with new leads as all are very rigid and old.

Still with a hot engine (seriously hot), it drowns on pick up from idle to any throttle.
Will look into the air screws a bit see what that does.

With my friend's 500 four, out playing together:

(https://myalbum.com/photo/AVn4Njb8u25G/1k0.jpg)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods (seat - exhaust)
Post by: Erwin83 on June 15, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
Last week I installed a new set of (aftermarket) coils, after I broke a lead, just after selling my spare coils. Ah well...

The settings of my little 400 is juuuuuuuuust about perfect now. 8)
I don't have any hick-ups while riding, and both constant speeds as full throttle I'm getting a healthy response and good sounds.
Even the dreaded camchain noise has reduced significantly since I pushed the rod down according to known methods...

The only thing is still the idle at warm / hot engine.
Since I synced the carbs, she runs idle very well and sounds sweet but a few seconds in and she drops below 1000 rpm and ends up stalling, unless I blip the throttle again.

In order to avoid endless carb setting tinkering, could this be related to another setting or a defective components?
Points setting, ignition timing, condensors, advancer?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: andut on June 15, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
Good to hear that you're getting some progress Erwin !

Does the idle speed increase before it dies and do you still have the air screws at 2.5 turns ?  If it isn't increasing in speed before stalling, it could be overfuelling slightly, so you may want to try running it a little weaker via the air screw adjustment and see if it improves - do the plugs look wet immediately after it stalls ?

You'd expect to wind the air screws out to weaken it - more air = leaner mix, but I read an equally plausible description of the 400's Keihin idle circuit as posted by Hondaman on the US site that makes some sense and suggests winding the mixture screw out will actually richen the mixture as it's the air bleed that draws the fuel into the idle jet, and the greater flow or air would draw more fuel.  Regardless of the theory, it's an easy experiment to do, so it would be worth trying an adjustment in small steps in either direction to see how the bike reacts. - and then let us know how you get on !

It's also worth thinking about plugs - have a look at Julie's recent 400 idle issues thread that appear to have been improved by a change in plugs.

Andy
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: Erwin83 on June 15, 2017, 01:44:19 PM
Good to hear that you're getting some progress Erwin !

Does the idle speed increase before it dies and do you still have the air screws at 2.5 turns ?  If it isn't increasing in speed before stalling, it could be overfuelling slightly, so you may want to try running it a little weaker via the air screw adjustment and see if it improves - do the plugs look wet immediately after it stalls ?

You'd expect to wind the air screws out to weaken it - more air = leaner mix, but I read an equally plausible description of the 400's Keihin idle circuit as posted by Hondaman on the US site that makes some sense and suggests winding the mixture screw out will actually richen the mixture as it's the air bleed that draws the fuel into the idle jet, and the greater flow or air would draw more fuel.  Regardless of the theory, it's an easy experiment to do, so it would be worth trying an adjustment in small steps in either direction to see how the bike reacts. - and then let us know how you get on !

It's also worth thinking about plugs - have a look at Julie's recent 400 idle issues thread that appear to have been improved by a change in plugs.

Andy

Hi Andy

thanks a lot for the feedback.
I've been playing with the airscrews and first went from 2,5 to 2. Now I'm at 2,25 turn out, because I also thought I needed some more air to prevent the stalling.
Also tried to give the carb some more idle by giving the base throttle position a bit more, but that only make the return to idle worse, and finally still the bike stalls.

The idle certainly does not go up before it dies. It runs nicely around the 1200 rpm mark first and then slowly goes to 1000, 900 and below 800 rpm it won't run anymore obviously.

My plugs remain black carbon (so seems rich). I have 4 new D8 plugs ready for install.

I'm actually considering lowering the float level another 1 mm, because I feel the bike runs slightly rich all over the revs, but this has not bee scientifically proven.

I'll look for the other thread, I remember replying in there too.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: Erwin83 on June 15, 2017, 08:57:42 PM
(https://myalbum.com/photo/ZLQznrDiazzI/1k0.jpg)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: Erwin83 on June 15, 2017, 08:59:56 PM
(https://myalbum.com/photo/T0mwDYejm3Sp/1k0.jpg)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: Erwin83 on June 24, 2017, 02:37:33 PM
Movie with sound:

https://youtu.be/ztPY2APeSJI (https://youtu.be/ztPY2APeSJI)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) with some mods - final carbs and ignition settings
Post by: Erwin83 on October 30, 2019, 01:10:16 PM
It's been a while since my last update.

After losing 2 cylinders (capacitor blew up) during the last few km's of the Distinguished Gentleman's Ride in 2018, I added one more mod to the CB350 (with 400 engine): Electronic ignition unit.
Ever since, the bike has been running great, though starting to leak more and more oil from valve cover seals and head gasket (O-rings). Up to the point that it wasn't just a drop anymore, and my left shoe got wet.
So, I decided to make the CB my winter project again for season 19-20. Last winter I restored and customized a 1978 Guzzi V35 to a Scrambler, so was in need of new work anyways.

Coming up:
- New cylinder base gasket, new head gasket, new valvecover gasket, etc..
- And whilst everything needs to be taken apart anyways: I ordered a 466 big bore kit from Australia 8). I've been wanting to do such a job for a while and took the chance now.

- Also (already done): new stem bearings and new wheel bearings are installed.
- New throttle cables have been ordered (I was riding with just a pull-cable for the last decade or so)
- New instrument cables have been order. Shorter ones to match better with my set-up: 60cm rpm (of a Honda CB360 G5) and 80cm speedo (of a Honda CB50-J)

I'm just about ready to start pulling the engine apart and will post update every so often.

Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:53 AM
Well, that escalated quickly:

Apart from finding 2 broken piston rings, sticking oil-scrape rings, 2 hardly torqued down head nuts (the ones in the sparkplug hole), no mayor problems found (yet).

Now, I'll be on the look-out for a company who can bore the cylinders to 54,5+ mm (anyone know the piston clearance and ring gap specs on these?), and in the meantime, I will focus on refurbishing the head.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: K2-K6 on November 01, 2019, 11:57:53 AM
Have the piston manufacturer no data for the clearance etc? 

Differences in material can mean very significant changes to the spec compared to original metallurgy in these engines so you really need specific information to get them correct.

The ring gap is most probably going to be factory tolerances unless specifically detailed as the materials don't change much. But the piston itself can have quite fundamental impact on bore sizing.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 12:25:32 PM
There is no specific installation manual provided for this. I just emailed the people in Australia to find out if they specify anything other than standard.

Standard assembly clearance (as I understand from the service manual: 0,01-0,04 mm piston-cylinder clearance.
Ring gaps 0,1-0,3 mm.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 01, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
Definitely get the data from the manufacturer, as if you are reboring to take oversize pistons, the liners will be a lot thinner and the heat displacement totally different than standard liners / pistons. Also, are you sure it says 0.01-0.04 mm, that only equates to .3 of a thou. OEM Honda pistons need .8 of a thou and Cruzinimage pistons 1.0 thou clearance🤔🤔🤔🤔 And 0.04mm is approx 1.5 thou and the engine could smoke like a chimney.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 01:26:08 PM
Found the info for the 400:
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 01, 2019, 01:28:11 PM
Which bit are you reading, I can only see service limits NOT piston / bore clearance
Edit...i have put my glasses on now and can see better 🙄🙄🙄
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 01:37:02 PM
now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read cylinder size upon fresh install: 51,00-50,01. Piston diameter 50,97-50,99.
So 0,01-0,04 mm clearance.

I agree that temperature is more critical with less liner material. So (should no advice come with this kit), would the upper limit of the installation spec be the best way forward?
that would mean 54,50 pistons, 54,54 cylinders (EDITED).
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 01, 2019, 01:44:13 PM
No, because 54.50 pistons won't fit in a 54.46 cylinder anyway. Can't advise on this Erwin as the tolerances you are referring to don't make sense really.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 01:57:18 PM
sorry, 54,50 piston 54,54 cylinders  :P
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 01, 2019, 02:05:51 PM
sorry, 54,50 piston 54,54 cylinders  :P
Haha, yes, they will fit but the piston / bore gap sounds huge to me. I hope the manufacturer of the kit comes up with the spec sheet / tolerances for you. I do know someone else that fitted a 466 kit ( i don't know what make) and he had to strip the engine again, fit new liners and have another rebore due to a too large gap.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 01, 2019, 02:25:14 PM
Ok, well you certainly triggered me to do some more research before I tell the machinist what bore diameter I want.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 01, 2019, 02:33:07 PM
Ok, well you certainly triggered me to do some more research before I tell the machinist what bore diameter I want.
Yes, that's the best thing to do. Mistakes can be very annoying and even more very expensive.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 07, 2019, 09:27:44 AM
Baked this cake yesterday. It came out all black...

Got a response from Australia that there is no specific clearance advice. The pistons are of the same material as standard.

I dropped the kit off at a machinist this morning. He was confident he'd deliver a good fit based on the Honda specs.

Keen to see the result  8)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Trigger on November 07, 2019, 08:25:36 PM
If you bore to Honda spec (0.02000 to 0.02032 mm ) without using Honda grade alloy pistons, they will seize and do a lot of damage.

The supplier has said, that they are the same material and what that means, is they are alloy  ??? You need to know the grade of alloy.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Andych on November 07, 2019, 08:38:22 PM
That 466 Big Bore kit is the same as the one that Cruising Image offer... not that it means the pistons come from the same factory as the standard oversize pistons from Cruising Image, however I would err on the side of caution and consider that you use the tolerances mentioned previously by Trigger or Julie as to when they use Cruising Image pitons.
On that bore size the sleeves will be thin so I would be wary of having the clearances as tight as Original Honda....
I have the same kit but am no where near ready to have anything bored.. its not even pulled apart yet so I am interested to see how this all goes.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 08, 2019, 03:48:53 PM
Thanks for the responses.
I need to correct myself. The supplier (Forseti), didnt say they are the same material, they said they have no specific advice, which I interpreted to “follow honda spec”.

My machinist also had a good look. At first he wasn’t happy that it was “cheap internet stuff”, instead of Mahle or whatever top notch brand he usually gets to work with, but upon inspection, he was happy with what he saw, quality wise. Size wise it’s a different story. His smallest size is 50mm bore. So only 1 mm under the 400 bore size, and sleave lenght he prefers a minimum of 100mm. The 400 sleave is around 90mm. But he could work with it.

At least, they are not forged pistons, which for him means using the normal manufacturer specs.
We also discussed the thin sleaves after boring and I mentioned that too tight of a fit would potentially cause heat issues. He agreed and told me to leave it to him. Which I intend to do. This machinist has litterally decades of experience. It’s one of those old fashioned shops, with no reception. Walk through the door and you stand right between the heavy machinery. I trust him to make it work.

Once done, I’ll ask or measure what the actual clearance has become and report back to you all.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 11, 2019, 02:21:35 PM
While I am getting bored, waiting for the cylinders to get bored, (see what I did there... haHAA), a good moment to revamp my cylinder head.

A question about the valves:

First of all, off course I've kept valves very neatly ordered per cylinder.
Next, I've cleaned the valves with the wire brush (brass) and cloth, and the seats as well. Next I cleaned the set (valve and seat) by adding a light rubbing cleaning compound (just household cleaning, this stuff is way too light to actually cut any metal) to the valve and turning the valve in the seat (using a drop of machine oil and a rubber hose on the stem to connect to a drill.
Result is a clean valve seat and uhmm. bum (?). the part that hits the seat at least.

Next, I've checked for leaks by dropping the valves back in the head, and filling the combustion chamber with fuel.
To my surprise, 4/8 are (slowly) leaking fuel. 2 exhaust valves and 2 intake valves.

Is this to be expected? After all, the valves are only closed by gravity, and gravity doesn't affect these teeny tiny valves very much.
Before putting in the time and effort of installing the springs to double check, I'd love to hear from your experiences.

thanks in advance.

(picture is obviously of before the cleaning, there is quite some carbon build-up on the exhaust valves).
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: taysidedragon on November 11, 2019, 02:26:54 PM
Use valve grinding paste to get a good seal. I've always done mine by hand by rotating back and forth, never used a drill.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 11, 2019, 02:33:05 PM
You are doing the leak down test the wrong way round. You need to put the fuel in the inlet and outlet ports, with the springs on, as it is the springs that close the valves, not gravity, and then observe for leaks. And you need proper valve grinding paste to do the lapping in.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 11, 2019, 03:01:38 PM
OK, so you would advice cutting/lapping the valve anyways (now that we're here)?
Obviously, I was only cleaning so far. The engine ran well, and there were no signs of leaking or burned valves. (the old 'if it aint broken, don't fix it' idea)

I guess that you're also saying that installing the springs and applying pressure to the seal, the results of the leak-down tests may differ.
I don't see the difference (technically) between adding the fuel in the ports, against in the combustion room. Apart from the the latter is less messy...
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 11, 2019, 04:11:36 PM
Yes, fit the springs and you may not have a leak. If the bike was running fine before you took it apart, just lapping in will  be OK I'm sure. I'm also assuming you don't have the correct equipment to grind the valve seats and re face the valves anyway. 
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 11, 2019, 04:40:29 PM
I certainly don't. Completely resurfacing the valves and seats would be a machinist job for sure.

Just to be more sure and don't run the risk of screwing up my one bigbore head gasket, I just ordered a can of Chemico valve cutting paste and one of those suction-thingies-on-a-wooden-stick. Hope the smallest one will fit the exhaust valves.

The valve lapping should be a bit better with that, and I'll be doing a leak-test with the valves in place to check results afterwards.


Thanks for the advice once again.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Moorey on November 11, 2019, 04:52:16 PM
I always do valves with a drill if i can get one on. It takes a fraction of the time. Valve grinding suckers must be one of the most frustrating tools in the box.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: paul G on November 11, 2019, 04:55:44 PM
Get yourself some velcro with adhesive on both sides stick it to the valve  and sucker or that rubber sucker will drive you mad  :o :o :o
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 11, 2019, 07:30:06 PM
Great advice gents.
The sucker was only 7,50 euro. So if frustrates me, even with some double sided tape to help, it will end up somewhere in the garden.

I got one of those tap wrenches! Might give that a try as well.
With the household cleaning agent, I used a fuel pipe on the valve stem and on a bit- holder.
The only downside is/was that any pressure has to come from the combustion chamber side, press too hard and the fuel line will slip.

Once my chemico paste is in, i’ll pick this back up.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: MCTID on November 11, 2019, 08:00:52 PM
Stick the Valve in an electric drill (cordless or mains) with a light spring behind it (between the valve guide and the reverse head of the valve) and 'Bobs yer Uncle' - done in no time and with minimal effort.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: K2-K6 on November 11, 2019, 09:08:01 PM
I was taught when in training never to use an electric drill as it could ruin the valve face, long time ago now but I think it was due to the speed it went at and how it was easy to cut too much off as a result. Might be wrong but eleccy drill was a big no no back in the day

Same here,  taught that to run it continuous in one direction risked putting "tram tracks" in both components as the cutting particals weren't moved out of line. 
Method taught was oscillations with a lift out occasionally to redistribute the cut, resulting in smooth lapped surface.

You could get those drill driven oscillating gearbox with sucker on then to convert drill rotation into the right movement to facilitate if you had a lot to complete too.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: paul G on November 12, 2019, 08:07:22 AM
I was taught when in training never to use an electric drill as it could ruin the valve face, long time ago now but I think it was due to the speed it went at and how it was easy to cut too much off as a result. Might be wrong but eleccy drill was a big no no back in the day

Same here,  taught that to run it continuous in one direction risked putting "tram tracks" in both components as the cutting particals weren't moved out of line. 
Method taught was oscillations with a lift out occasionally to redistribute the cut, resulting in smooth lapped surface.

You could get those drill driven oscillating gearbox with sucker on then to convert drill rotation into the right movement to facilitate if you had a lot to complete too.

This is what I use but the velcro still needed  ;D
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Trigger on November 12, 2019, 09:31:56 AM
While I am getting bored, waiting for the cylinders to get bored, (see what I did there... haHAA), a good moment to revamp my cylinder head.

A question about the valves:

First of all, off course I've kept valves very neatly ordered per cylinder.
Next, I've cleaned the valves with the wire brush (brass) and cloth, and the seats as well. Next I cleaned the set (valve and seat) by adding a light rubbing cleaning compound (just household cleaning, this stuff is way too light to actually cut any metal) to the valve and turning the valve in the seat (using a drop of machine oil and a rubber hose on the stem to connect to a drill.
Result is a clean valve seat and uhmm. bum (?). the part that hits the seat at least.

Next, I've checked for leaks by dropping the valves back in the head, and filling the combustion chamber with fuel.
To my surprise, 4/8 are (slowly) leaking fuel. 2 exhaust valves and 2 intake valves.

Is this to be expected? After all, the valves are only closed by gravity, and gravity doesn't affect these teeny tiny valves very much.
Before putting in the time and effort of installing the springs to double check, I'd love to hear from your experiences.

thanks in advance.

(picture is obviously of before the cleaning, there is quite some carbon build-up on the exhaust valves).

Was the wire brush you used Brass or steel that is copper colour ? If it is steel then you may have damaged the faces. Easy way to clean valves is drop them in thinners for 24hr and the carbon will wipe off.

Lapping in valves is a final process after you are sure the seats have no pitting and the valve face is good and the valve is not bent. If a valve doesn't lap in after the first grind ( a minute ) then something is wong. A valve can appear to be seated on a leak test but, turn the valve 90, 180 degrees and it could leak.

I re grind the seats and re face the valves and it will only take me a couple of minutes to lap in as, I already have a good matching surfaces.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 12, 2019, 10:24:31 PM
They're brass. Nothing got damaged fortunately.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 12, 2019, 10:36:30 PM
I get why the lapping-stick is frustrating.. pfff.
Anyways, in the end I found a rhytm and got a nice silver finish on the valves and seats.

Even more frustrating is forgetting to fit the valve guide rubber seals, and having to fit 12 valves instead of 8. Especially without the right tool for it.

Anyhow. It all worked.
Fluid level was nice and stable after doing the leak test again.

Thank you all for the advice given!
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 22, 2019, 01:26:36 PM
Just picked up the cylinders. Now it's getting real  :-X
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 22, 2019, 01:36:50 PM
Looking good 👍👍👍 A question, why have you got brass screws on the manifold rubbers? Will the brass not be too soft to get a decent tightness to avoid air leaks?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 22, 2019, 02:07:01 PM
Looking good 👍👍👍 A question, why have you got brass screws on the manifold rubbers? Will the brass not be too soft to get a decent tightness to avoid air leaks?

Well, simply because I had to destroy the original screws when replacing the rubbers, and I inherited a bunch of very pretty high quality brass bolts from my Grandfather who was a fine instrument maker (not the music stuff, but metal working). The right size was available.

The tightness is no issue at all. It's 'normal' tight. There are 15 turns of thread in use, so not worried about that.
I guessed the advantage of using softer screws (instead of hex-bolts from the DIY store) is the possibility to get the bolts off again without destroying the cylinder head, should it ever be needed in future. Less risk of damaging thread or getting corrosion.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 22, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
Fair enough.... Your Grandad would be well pleased I'm sure.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 22, 2019, 02:17:08 PM
For the record, the machinist has decided to use the Honda spec, as the pistons (according to him) are similar to the original material, and not forged like on high(er) quality tuning-pistons such as mahle etc.

He measured all pistons before boring and concluded that all 4 pistons had exactly the same size. Therefore, he ended up boring the 4 holes at the same size too.
Checked the piston ring gaps, were good too. All-in-all, he was quite impressed with the quality of the Forseti kit.

I paid 315 euro for the service of boring / honing and checking all measurements. A bit more than I expected.
Together with the Forseti kit and a gasket kit for the engine, I will be in for 600 euro + oil and filter.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2019, 04:54:47 PM
Certainly appears that you've had decent work completed to build it with the big bore kit,  hopefully you'll have good results. Interesting to hear how you get on.

The brass screws are an interesting subject when used with these engines.  For corrosion purposes they are worse than the original materials (zinc plated steel) as brass exists at a greater distance away from aluminium casting than does zinc. Also the brass will effectively corrode / scavenge from the aluminium casting,  where the original materials won't. This is often seen when carburettors are left to corrode,  the brass components "eat" the predominantly zinc castings. 

[attachimg=1]

Above chart is from this site http://www.corrosionpedia.com/an-introduction-to-the-galvanic-series-galvanic-compatibility-and-corrosion/2/1403 which discusses this subject.

Like many of the Honda design of that era,  there are many very small but concise details which attract no immediate attention but are there nonetheless and impact the overall construction unseen.  Very clever, those Japanese development engineers  :)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 22, 2019, 05:00:52 PM
I'm pleased you explained that Nigel.... My only offer was to inform Erwin that if he wanted the proper ones as fitted by Honda, I have no doubt we will have them in stock.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 22, 2019, 06:15:35 PM
Wow, that’s a good ring of the bell. Thanks for that.
You made me google this for some more background and I see now that this is not a smart choice at all. Although real issues are more expected in a wet environment, which this isn’t really, I will change them out nonetheless.

What is the preferred material for exhaust taps? I always thought people used brass. Or is it copper? Or s my memory failing me completely?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Trigger on November 22, 2019, 10:14:12 PM
Just picked up the cylinders. Now it's getting real  :-X

They don't look like std head studs ?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 22, 2019, 11:26:21 PM
No, they’re the upgraded Zebra style.

(a previous owner painted the engine without dismanteling, this is what you get)
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: taysidedragon on November 23, 2019, 12:05:09 PM
If a low grip threadlock or coppergrease is used on the threads would that stop any corrosion altogether or just delay it for a while?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 24, 2019, 03:37:25 PM
Installing the cylinder is quite tricky without the tapered bottom of the cylinders. But after an hour on my knees next to the bike and many drops of sweat later, the block finally thumped on the new gasket (which I gave a lick of liquid gasket too, just to try and prevent leaking for as long as possible).
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 24, 2019, 03:51:32 PM
I keep my fingers crossed you have no leaks. That area is quite oil free really, its just the area around the oil return paths / dowels / studs, that usually leak if anything. I can see this bike being back on the road by Christmas, you are making great progress 😊😊😊
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 24, 2019, 06:14:30 PM
That may be possible, but once the engine is back together, I also have some wishes with the exhaust. I currently have a 4-2 based on the original header pipes of the 350f. I have the ambition to make it 4-4 again with 4 open peashooters.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 24, 2019, 06:17:31 PM
That may be possible, but once the engine is back together, I also have some wishes with the exhaust. I currently have a 4-2 based on the original header pipes of the 350f. I have the ambition to make it 4-4 again with 4 open peashooters.
Haha, I love pea shooters, I have had them on many of my old British bikes and they sound great.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 29, 2019, 09:17:08 PM
Got the head back on.
And to show I do occasionally take advice (...), a pic of the boots with brand new original JIS screws instead of the fancy brass ones.

BTW, head nuts tightened to 22Nm, with the 10 copper washers and yes, I even ordered the 2 special washers with rubber inserts at 6,50 euro a piece. That hurt a bit...
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 30, 2019, 04:23:35 PM
Got the head back on.
And to show I do occasionally take advice (...), a pic of the boots with brand new original JIS screws instead of the fancy brass ones.

They look a lot better 👍👍👍👍
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on November 30, 2019, 09:32:21 PM
Starting to look like an engine again.

Valvecover installed, so the valves are opening and closing again. I still get a bit anxious when setting cam shaft timing. I must have checked a dozen times and still turned the crank to a position that no piston was at tdc when the cover went on.

Also renewed the seal of the tacho drive as well, and obviously all O-rings.

Feels very smooth when turning with the kickstart by hand.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 02, 2019, 08:53:14 PM
Engine all buttoned up. Got a nice boop-boop-boop-boop on the kickstart showing signs of compression (there's no exhaust yet) and needs a good amount (not too much, not too little) of force on the kick starter.
Dared to push the starter button and that sounded very normal.

Next, exhaust, throttle cables, clutch, and some small other stuff.

Tbc
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 02, 2019, 09:05:38 PM
What a lovely sound...... Boop, Boop, Boop... Its very encouraging 👍👍👍
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 10, 2019, 09:44:00 PM
Still waiting for new exhaust studs, so decided to refurbish the rear wheel with new bearings and seals, and changed the tyre from 4,10-18 to 4,00-18. Gives a fuller look and matches better with the front 3,50-18.
Rim will need some paint touch up, which I will do in spring with warmer temperatures.

And planning for the 4-4 exhaust.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 14, 2019, 09:27:28 AM
Yeahhh, one side finished. Let’s see how long these sewage pipes hold  ;D

So, I’m using the original header pipes of my 350 4-4, and the original damper hangers, to get the nice tapered look.
The honda pipes are 32mm outside diameter. The idea is to fabricate these pvc mock-ups out of 35-1,5 mm heater pipe (a size relatively easily available), which will be an exact fit to clamp on the headers.
At the silencer side, I will need to make some sort of widening ring, to bump the diameter up to 40 mm or more, so the “silencer” can clamp down.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 18, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
Cylinder 2 link pipe is made. Just needs detailing with a flappy disk and some finer sanding paper, followed by a finishing layer.
It's my first time welding an exhaust pipe, and it went better than expected. Used MIG. A cheap machine.
First try needed quite a few corrections, but on the second weld I already got the hang of it a bit.

Now, how to finish the pipe. I'm thinking heat resistant paint, but which color..? The silencers are chrome. The header pipes are tired original chrome-ish...
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 19, 2019, 10:00:27 PM
Cylinder 1&2 done. Now what to with the finish?
Heat resistant paint? But what color?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: taysidedragon on December 20, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
Cylinder 1&2 done. Now what to with the finish?
Heat resistant paint? But what color?

If it was me I would get them chromed to fit in with the headers and silencers.
If you don't want to do that it would have to be silver exhaust paint, black would look odd sandwiched between the chrome sections. Please don't wrap them with silencer bandage! One of my pet hates. 😣
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 20, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
Cylinder 1&2 done. Now what to with the finish?
Heat resistant paint? But what color?

If it was me I would get them chromed to fit in with the headers and silencers.
If you don't want to do that it would have to be silver exhaust paint, black would look odd sandwiched between the chrome sections. Please don't wrap them with silencer bandage! One of my pet hates. 😣

I agree on the bandage  ;)
The headers aren't really in very good condition. What if I painted them too? Black / Silver...?
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on December 20, 2019, 03:47:46 PM
I always thought black exhausts were cool. In the 70s that’s what all the race bikes used (think RCB)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: taysidedragon on December 20, 2019, 07:58:58 PM
Cylinder 1&2 done. Now what to with the finish?
Heat resistant paint? But what color?

If it was me I would get them chromed to fit in with the headers and silencers.
If you don't want to do that it would have to be silver exhaust paint, black would look odd sandwiched between the chrome sections. Please don't wrap them with silencer bandage! One of my pet hates. 😣

I agree on the bandage  ;)
The headers aren't really in very good condition. What if I painted them too? Black / Silver...?

Why not, it's your bike. Paint doesn't stick to chrome very well though.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 23, 2019, 09:28:49 PM
I found a heat resistant mat dark grey. I really like it.
The left side exhaust is finished. All the way from new studs in the head, painted black crowns, to the 2 silencers on the hanger with a new pillion peg installed.

Now the trick is to get the right pair decently mirrored.
Title: Re: CB350f (400) - big bore time
Post by: Erwin83 on December 23, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Oh, and more importantly...
She runs! Even though I was very nervous (did I do everything right??), I thought about filming the very first attempt. And my gosh, she sprung to life quick! I couldn't believe it!

https://youtu.be/VP9Pmx4CZs4
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: taysidedragon on December 24, 2019, 10:12:52 AM
Well done. Very satisfying when it runs! 👍
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 24, 2019, 10:30:30 AM
Great work.
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: philward on December 25, 2019, 02:29:19 PM
Love the look and sound of those exhausts - well done
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Moorey on December 25, 2019, 05:26:14 PM
Great stuff, well done.
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on December 25, 2019, 06:05:52 PM
Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on December 27, 2019, 02:12:04 PM
4 exhausts certainly looks the best  8)
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on December 27, 2019, 03:45:48 PM
Anyone knows what the proper run-in procedure is with new cylinders and pistons?
I just let it heat up for the first time and gave it some low revs. Don't really know what I'm doing to be honest.

Some more sound:

https://youtu.be/_HX8qZ09Jis

Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 27, 2019, 05:48:09 PM
Get it out on the road and ride it with plenty of cold air around the barrels. If it gets too hot, without air flow the engine will seize. Do not load the engine, 4-5k rpm, up to 50 mph. Do not do short stop, start rides, the engine needs to go through complete heat cycles, so aim for at least 50 - 75 mile ride to start with.
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on March 07, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
Man, I love this thing.  8)
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: SumpMagnet on March 07, 2020, 02:37:44 PM
I can see why.

You build something just how you like it, put hours of your own time and effort into it, and then you get to enjoy it.

I love the understated cafe racer style, and the 4-4 pipes
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Spitfire on March 07, 2020, 02:39:42 PM
Looks great, that is the look that I would have killed for when I was younger.

Cheers

Dennis
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 07, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
It looks great Erwin
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on March 08, 2020, 04:42:10 PM
Thanks everyone. “Understated cafe style”, if I would have had a goal at the start of the project(s), this would have been a nice statement to put it. I like that, thanks for the compliment.
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Rob62 on March 11, 2020, 07:33:11 PM
Like it a lot! That seat really sets it off...very retro 8)
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on March 31, 2020, 08:54:55 AM
My other project is also getting along nicely:

Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on April 01, 2020, 07:59:23 AM
Needs some 2K, but all color is on  8)
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on April 23, 2020, 08:56:09 PM
 8)
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on May 12, 2020, 08:30:37 PM
Update of the "yellow one". Seat done, headlight done. Basically just the engine left to do and button up.
Title: Re: CB350f (466 big bore) - she runs!
Post by: Erwin83 on August 03, 2020, 09:51:22 PM
Finally some progress on the yellow 350f, after I broke two oil rings while trying to install the cylinders, I had to order new rings from cruzinimage and stuff like that sets you back a couple of weeks.
This time I was more careful and the engine is now coming together.

Those 400 headers look so sexy  ;D


Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Erwin83 on August 06, 2020, 10:35:11 AM
Not finished, but it's getting there:

Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Rob62 on August 06, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
Nice... 8)
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Erwin83 on September 14, 2020, 11:46:01 AM
Updates!

The black CB466f is smoke free since I changed the headgasket. I'm still treating here carefully as I will be doing a head re-torque after 500km of gentle riding.

Synched the carbs, and she's running like a sewing machine. Albeit a noisy one, with those 4 open pipes.

[attach=1]

The yellow one is also getting close to being road-worthy. I had 2 test rides now, leading to altering the carbs (needle 1 position lower, I had it at max rich).
I also found that I have no battery charging during riding, there is no power to the white wire out of the reg-rec, which I guess means that my generator is not magnetized and therefore not working at all. It's a cheap reg-rec combo, I figure it's a DOA.

I also ordered a new silencer, so visually the bike is going to be finished soon.
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Erwin83 on September 14, 2020, 01:33:31 PM
Did a little test: I had another old fashioned regulator laying around. So I unplugged the black and white from the new R/R combo, but let the 5 pin connector installed (using the R/R combo purely as a rectifier) and connected the old regulator.

Presto! I have charging power now. So the R/R combo must have some problem inside with the rectifier.
Bummer.

Is there any harm in riding with a R/R combo with the regulator unplugged, and using an old fashioned regulator instead?
I have no idea of the inner workings of a combined R/R.
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Bryanj on September 14, 2020, 11:25:43 PM
As long as the loose terminals are insulated just in case it decides to play silly it should be ok
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Erwin83 on September 16, 2020, 04:45:03 PM
Got the new silencer installed  8)
A silencer that actually silences! Unbelievable for <40 GBP (https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/short-daytona-36mm-44mm.html)

That means that this project is visually finished. Only some technical stuff to fix or improve:

- Carb jetting (main 90 now, seems rich) and need a synch.
- oil leak from the left side of the engine. Looks to be the O-ring of the oil gallery plug.
- Drive chain
- Longer jiffy (anyone know a plug-and-play option that is 1-2 inch longer?
- replace the R/R unit
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: SumpMagnet on September 17, 2020, 06:47:42 PM
Nice.

It's not really my style of bike, but I can still appreciate what's been done. The modern front end sits well and doesn't look out of place, which they often can do.
The swoopy 400-4 pipes and a short mega suit the style too.

It's clean, simple, and looks like a flat tracker.

Job done, and done well
Title: Re: 2 x CB350f Black 466cc cafe-style & yellow 350 tracker-style
Post by: Erwin83 on September 18, 2020, 07:11:49 AM
Thanks!
 :D
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 11, 2021, 09:22:20 AM
Time for an update, it's been too long.

The yellow CB350f 'tracker' was sold last year to a very enthusiastic new owner. The proceeds have been put forward to build a Moto Guzzi caferacer last winter, which I am riding this season, even taking it on longer multi-day trips. So this is how my garage looks like now (and there is a Transalp 650 too):

[attachimg=1]

Finishing the Guzzi gave me time to grow new spirits for working on the black CB, which has a oil leak from a hairline-crack in the lower engine casing. I discovered this after rebuilding the top-end (big bore, etc). Quite disappointing.

I tried 2 different kinds of Alu-epoxy to solve (or even just control) the oil leak, but to no success.
So last weeks, I have taken the jump to finally split the cases and look for a welder.

That's where I am now: the welder should be finished in the coming days, and a pile of parts is supposed to arrive as well, all of the "now we're here" category, such as the reworked tensioner (DS), oil seals, etc.
First time opening the cases, and I am happy to report that the internals are looking great, so definitely worth the trouble.

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: philward on August 11, 2021, 10:03:08 PM
2 great looking bikes!
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 12, 2021, 08:36:00 AM
2 great looking bikes!

Thanks!

Progress:

Picked up the welded case last evening and checked for leaks with pressured air. All seems well now.
Due to the location of the hairline crack, we decided to weld-up the engine mount completely. There was no way a welding cup was going to get into the crevice where the nut lives, and the crack was all the way at the bottom of it. Even chopping off the engine mount, weld the crack, weld the engine mount back on, would render the engine mount useless, as the nut would not be able to fit back in.
So I'll be mounting the engine from 5 instead of 6 engine mounts from now on. Priority is with beating the oil leak.

[attachimg=1]

In the meantime, I've replaced all oil seals: both on the crank, the big one behind the sprocket, and the oil-cup next to the gearbox, and replaced the 3 O-rings of the oil galeries.
Now waiting for Fedex to bring the parts from David Silvers, and I can start closing the cases again.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 12, 2021, 12:59:26 PM
I would worry (probably unnecessarily)  about the new stress distribution with one lower side mount missing.

I guess spare casings are scarce / pricey  in the Netherlands.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 12, 2021, 01:35:14 PM
Well, that is indeed a risk I am accepting. There are a lot of engine mounting positions on a small area, 4 on the bottom casing half, and 3 on the top casing half.

Apart from undamaged casings being very rare (a lot of 400's have this issue), the casings are also a match with eachother, and with the crankshaft. So changing out the casing means:
- Full engine teardown (vs. having the top-end still in place now).
- Finding the right size and changing out the crankshaft bearings.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Laverdaroo on August 12, 2021, 09:32:04 PM
Loving the Guzzi! :) :o
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 13, 2021, 07:14:05 PM
Loving the Guzzi! :) :o

Thanks! Me too. It's such a usable bike, I even took it to Germany for a weekend chasing my mates' Multistrada's through the twinties.
It has the vintage caferacer feeling, with modern performance and reliability.

It's for sale nonetheless.. I want to build another Guzzi next winter.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 17, 2021, 10:29:39 AM
Took some time, but finally got my package from David Silver, with most importantly the re-engineered camchain tensoiner:
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 19, 2021, 05:38:49 PM
I love to see Moto Guzzis I hankered for a V50 - a girl I knew bought a brand new one  sometime around 1979/80 for commuting to work- they looked great value and that bit different to other bikes at the time.
I sat on one at the local dealers but it was rather small for me at 6ft 1in with a 33 inch inside leg- that was my excuse at the time in reality it was just out of my price range.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 22, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
Unfortunately, the first start after closing the cases and putting everything back together did not go exactly as planned. In order of events:
- After putting fresh oil in, I have primed the oil system (sparkplugs out) by turning the crank from the right side of the engine.
- Oil light went out, so I should have pressure
- Spark plugs in
- Gave it a shot with the startermotor: everything sounds fine
- Added some more oil to bring the level up to max
- Opened the fuel tap, start: immediately sprung to life, no weird noises. Adjusted the choke so I had a nice stable 2000 rpm to let her warm up gently
- Again, no weird noises, even the valve train sounded a lot less noisy (with the new adjuster)
- After what must have been around 30-40 seconds, there was a zzzzZZPP sound and the engine stopped.

I feared the worst, so put the bike back on the lift, she cooled down a bit and I tried cranking it over from the crank nut. Seems pretty normal. Gave it a go on the starter motor, also sounded pretty normal (even wanted to fire, but I didn't give it any choke or throttle)

I don't know what is a wise next step now, in order to understand what happened. I "only" opened and shut the cases, and replaced all oil seals. So logically I would think maybe a crank bearing gave up (maybe it didn't like the heat from the welding, although the entire case was pre-heated and clamped down on a fixing table to avoid warping).
But a zzzZZZPPP sounds more like a piston to me (?). I would think knocking or clunking is how a bearing sounds....

All advice is welcome.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 22, 2021, 12:07:30 PM
I can't hear the noise you describe in my head - if you fear running it up again my starting point would be to turn it over without the plugs in to see if there are any strange noises - drain & check the oil & filter for debris.

Check for the proper location of the camchain tensioners blades - had you done the cam chain tensioning with the engine running or had you not got that far?
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: philward on August 22, 2021, 12:29:03 PM

But a zzzZZZPPP sounds more like a piston to me (?). I would think knocking or clunking is how a bearing sounds....

Logically, I would agree with you, it sounds like a 'nip up' rather than a bearing failure. As per Ted's comment, drop the oil and look for debri plus maybe a compression test?
Good luck and hope its something simple and nothing serious
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 22, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Seems the battery was all dry. I'm not cheering (not at all), but I'm going to try with a better battery. Not sure how the sudden stall could be caused by a bad battery, but it's an easy check.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 22, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
There is a tendency to fear the worst especially after a substantial amount of dismantling has been done. Fear for the worst hope for the best dilemma syndrome.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 22, 2021, 05:21:41 PM
There is a tendency to fear the worst especially after a substantial amount of dismantling has been done. Fear for the worst hope for the best dilemma syndrome.

Yes, I always "shit 7 colors" (a dutch saying meaning you feel scared) when I run the bike after each rebuild.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 22, 2021, 05:28:19 PM
Another little step. Something seems to run a litle bit more heavy than normal. But what exactly?

I opened the tappet cover and the generator cover, also removed the sparkplugs.
I can turn the rotor (and therefore crankshaft) a little bit by hand (probaby the slack in the primary chain). When I turn the rotor, the camshaft immediately also starts moving, so there is no exces slack in the cam-chain.

More importantly: rotating this small distance is very easy (2 fingers). So I am lead to believe the resistance is not caused by the crankshaft bearings (camshaft looks fine too). I also don't see any glitter in the oil collected under the camshaft.

So, the resistance might be caused somewhere down the line, but what?
There are large bearings for the primary shaft. Those don't need any force to install and seem fairly oversized and extremely well lubricated.

Maybe the needle bearing of the primary shaft?
I did use a rubber mallet to massage the primary axle through the bearing and holder.. Have I destroyed that? How to diagnose this without splitting the cases again, is that even possible?
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 22, 2021, 08:58:32 PM
Another little step. Something seems to run a litle bit more heavy than normal. But what exactly?

I opened the tappet cover and the generator cover, also removed the sparkplugs.
I can turn the rotor (and therefore crankshaft) a little bit by hand (probaby the slack in the primary chain). When I turn the rotor, the camshaft immediately also starts moving, so there is no exces slack in the cam-chain.

More importantly: rotating this small distance is very easy (2 fingers). So I am lead to believe the resistance is not caused by the crankshaft bearings (camshaft looks fine too). I also don't see any glitter in the oil collected under the camshaft.

So, the resistance might be caused somewhere down the line, but what?
There are large bearings for the primary shaft. Those don't need any force to install and seem fairly oversized and extremely well lubricated.

Maybe the needle bearing of the primary shaft?
I did use a rubber mallet to massage the primary axle through the bearing and holder.. Have I destroyed that? How to diagnose this without splitting the cases again, is that even possible?
My shaft pushed in easily by hand once I had got everything aligned - it was just getting the first 1mm into the main bearing  that thwarted me for a few minutes until I rotated the crank a tad. I would have thought you could inspect the needle roller  by pulling out the shaft and looking inside with a good beam of light to see if the needles are damaged?
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: Erwin83 on August 22, 2021, 09:01:03 PM
Found it!

Apparently, I have forgotten to tighten the bolt in the primary shaft.  :-[
The bolt came loose and almost came out of the clutch cover...
Big oops...

I've alread found a new clutch cover, so the plan now is to flush the oil system twice (new oil and filter) to get rid of any aluminium shavings.

Good idea?

Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 22, 2021, 11:34:33 PM
Found it!

Apparently, I have forgotten to tighten the bolt in the primary shaft.  :-[
The bolt came loose and almost came out of the clutch cover...
Big oops...

I've alread found a new clutch cover, so the plan now is to flush the oil system twice (new oil and filter) to get rid of any aluminium shavings.

Good idea?

Yikes - well done at least you do not have to split the casings - obviously you will drop the sump pan to clean the screen filter & the base of the sump.
Title: Re: CB350f - 466cc / Black / Clubman / Giuliari
Post by: philward on August 23, 2021, 09:28:19 PM
Phew, not as bad as it could have been!
Title: Re: CB466f
Post by: Erwin83 on June 03, 2022, 08:30:21 AM
Finally some time to ride, and after all the work I can confirm... She is finally free of any oil leaks. I guess this is the first time in 19 years of ownership she has not been leaking any oil  ;D.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: CB466f
Post by: K2-K6 on June 03, 2022, 09:28:36 AM
Very good looking bike, especially that 3/4 view from the rear angle, some very nice work there.
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