Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: pptom on July 22, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
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Hello all, picked up the new bike on Saturday and am really pleased with it, runs lovelly - went out for a cheeky 20 mile 'shakedown' ride yesterday (no MOT yet). However, one thing that really surprised me is the handling - it feels really wallowy and a bit vague.
I suspect that at 36 years old the old springs have sagged somewhat, but to be honest i didn't really know what to expect having never ridden one before.
I've just ordered some new Hagon shocks - they've asked me my weight etc and I'll see how i get on with them, with the option to change springs as and when, if required, but i think my real issue is with the front end. Wheel bearings show no movement and i suspect the stem bearing may well already be tapered - think i can see this at the bottom of the stem - also there is no notchiness or free play. Tyre pressures good, new rear tyre and a matched 'ribbed' front - they are continental super twins?
I had a tiny weep from one of the fork seals, which may have been caused by transporting it, so new seals on order and i'll do an oil change with some modern 10Wt (everything seems pretty much spot on with the rest of the bike so i don't suspect maintenance has been scriped on or done incorrectly). I've read 'hondamans' advice about shimming the springs to take up the sag, but my other options seem to be new progressive springs from Hagon (they don't sell linear springs but reckon their progressives are about 10% firmer than the stocks) or the gold fork emulators (which would need to be coupled with some new linear springs) - both of which get pretty good reviews in the US.
Initial thoughts start with the cheapest option first - change oil and seals and measure springs, then make up shims to bring the spring free length back up to spec - but, since this will affect the springs characteristics, would i just be better off fitting the Hagon progressives?
I know its a heavy bike, but has anyone got some recommendations for sharpening things up a bit, particularly in the relation to the above fork options?
Photo's to follow by the way!
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Hello and welcome
My 750 was exactly the same when I first rode it the front springs were on there limit and the fork oil was a foul smelling sludge.
I highly recommend progressive front springs my bike would shake its head violently at speed before I changed them.
Can you move the rear swing arm from side to side?Bronze bushes are a wise investment and finally almost any new rear shocks are better than the old stock ones.
Mick
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I'll second what Green 1 said, also, the forks should use ATF (automatic transmission fluid), and many of these contain addatives to swell the seals and help prevent weeps and leaks ;D
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Thanks chaps, thought about the ATF thing, I've used it plenty in the past, but I like using modern stuff now, plus there is the option of fine tuning using different weights. Pretty sure I've read that 10Wt is about equivalent to ATF.
Thats a couple of convincing votes for the progressives - would you say they give the ride a 'sportier' feel?
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I don't mind ATF but like you, feel that a fork oil is a better performer if you are looking to tune the response and use things like progressive springs. I've always believed ATF to be rated at 5/10 viscosity.
The idea behind a progressive spring is to give a light rate that is supple at full extention for good comfort and wheel response to small bumps, but then with a stronger support to give more resistance when you hit something bigger and/or break hard to prevent the fork from bottoming out.
If you want a more sporting handling bias, it is resaonably common to jack the rear of this era of bikes to give the forks a steeper angle and quicken the steering a little. Something like 1inch longer rear shock will help take a little of the "stability" out of the staid original setup.
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Progressive spring made a huge difference in my case but to be fair the original ones were 10mm shorter than recommended and because of the worn bushes it felt like there was a hinge in the middle.
I did try ATF but I found it a little to hard I currently have SEA10 in them as recommended now it is silky smooth over bumps but dives a little more than I would like under heavy breaking.But she always goes were I point here I just have to remember I'm riding a 41 year old machine.
I have never had a problem with ATF in my other bikes but there are 30+years between them
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Know what you mean about riding an 'old' bike, but I also ride a 58' Norton dominator featherbed (domiracer style) - I know its old and a bit fragile, but as soon as i jump on it, i'm pretty sure the spirit of one of those old Isle of Mann riders channels through me!!!
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Just had a proper swing on the swingarm, i reckon movement at the end is about 1mm, there is a little (can't feel it, only just about see it), but it definitely feels properly bushed.
Thanks for the advice.
Tom
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There should be nil play at end of swing arm with new pin and bushes (steel pin wears mor than the plastic bushes!!) BUT with only a bit of play pump grease into both nipples and see what it handles like then, greasing is an every 500 miles or every month thing if you want the bushes/pin to last!!---I know Honda say 1500/annualy but they never wore out in the warrantee period no matter what.
These are also very suceptible to incorrect headrace adjustment and/or pitted races
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Thanks, will get some grease in there tonight. Don't think its that bad as i really had to put a fair bit of force into it to see any glimmer of visible movement.
I'll also have a look at the head bearings when i get the forks out later this week. Just got the progressive fork springs ordered, thought it would be better to just drop them in when i'm doing the seals, rather than messing about with shims etc
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You wont regret buying progressive springs If there is any wear on the swingarm pivot bolt collar it is only fit for the bin.My swingarm is such a snug fit in the frame now with the bronze bushes I have to tap it with a mallet to get it to fit.
Nearly forgot remember to change the lower rear shock bushes as they go as hard as hell overtime.
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I fitted the Hagon springs to my 500, along with the grade of oil they recommended, and it's noticeably better than before. I've also got taper roller bearings in the headstock.
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The plot thickens!
New OEM seals arrived today from Silvers, i was told the Hagon order would too, but no joy - anyway, stripped the forks and changed the seals in readiness for the springs - total oil quantity was around 300ml from both legs and it was 'fairly' clean ATF that came out. The springs however are already progressive - I have no idea if they are the right springs though until I can compare them to the new ones that I'll be fitting, total free length of the old ones 465mm - obviously longer than stock. They might be going on e-bay soon - or, if they look and measure the same as the Hagons I'll offer them up on here.
Checked the head race too and its tapered, now readjusted.
Can't wait to get out on it now! hopefully be ready for a spin tomorrow evening.
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did you re pack the bearing with grease!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! marine grease is good
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Little bit of an update:
New suspension went in front and rear (end of july) - improvement, but still didn't feel right, especially the front end which was following every little blemish in the road, it felt dangerous - from that point I knew I had to change the tyres.
I installed the Bronze swingarm bushes last week (dead easy really) and a new set of tyres (Avon Roadriders) Just been out for a run and I can say the bikes handling is back to how I expect a bike to handle. The swingarm bushes may have helped a little, but I would say 95% of the improvement is with the tyres. I've opted for a 3.25 front and 4.0 rear. Only done about 20 miles and still running the shine off of them, but I'm happy.
The moral of the story: don't buy Continental supertwin tyres
Just got to sort the dodgy carbs now...
Nearly there, but I can't see me doing much more riding until well into next year - I've declared winter!
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Little bit of an update:
New suspension went in front and rear (end of july) - improvement, but still didn't feel right, especially the front end which was following every little blemish in the road, it felt dangerous - from that point I knew I had to change the tyres.
I installed the Bronze swingarm bushes last week (dead easy really) and a new set of tyres (Avon Roadriders) Just been out for a run and I can say the bikes handling is back to how I expect a bike to handle. The swingarm bushes may have helped a little, but I would say 95% of the improvement is with the tyres. I've opted for a 3.25 front and 4.0 rear. Only done about 20 miles and still running the shine off of them, but I'm happy.
The moral of the story: don't buy Continental supertwin tyres
Just got to sort the dodgy carbs now...
Nearly there, but I can't see me doing much more riding until well into next year - I've declared winter!
interesting about the tyres,I just took off a worn set of Avons,the 90/90 x 19 f.and 100/90 x 18 rear,I thought they were great,in all weathers,but,
changed them for 3.25 x 19 f,and 4.00 x 18 r,Dunlop arrowmax,both sets running 29psi F,and 36 psi R ,
so far after about 200 mls these seem even better !!
I also modded the forks to fit second disc,used ATF ,and still the original springs,nice soft and progressive,
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I've been having a think about changing the tyres on mine recently, they both look ok and have decent tread depth but I'm unsure as to how good they are, only having had the bike for a month or so.
The front is a Kenda Challenger 100/90-19 and the rear is a Cheng Shin C289 MN90-18 (4.00-18) The rear looks in proportion but to be honest the front does look a bit wide for the rim
The workshop manual states the original spec to be Front 3.15-19 or 3.25-19 and Rear 3.50-18
I'm getting a bit of vibration through the handle bars even though I've rebuilt the forks and stripped down the stearing head and cleaned up the bearings etc. As the ball race bearings looked in good condition i have retained them for the time being, perhaps changing to taper would have been a better option. But will see how we go. Perhaps the tyres could be the cause?
The Avon and Dunlop options look and sound great but does the modern style not detract from the classic lines on the bike?
Ian
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my personal choice is get the most modern,
as I ride ,I want them to grip the best.
so I went for modern Dunlops
http://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_euen/mc/tyres/on_road/Arrowmax%20StreetSmart.jsp
you could go for 1960's pattern Avons,or TT100
http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/safety-mileage-mkii
http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/speedmaster-mkii
http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.eu/dunlop_euen/mc/tyres/on_road/K81_TT100.jsp
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I fully understand the reasoning behind going for the modern option but think going for a classic tyre would the way to go, after all they are still considered decent tyres especially the TT100's which proved themselves at the TT. Thanks for the links BTW, i looked at these earlier and thought they might be worth considering.
Anybody know what was fitted originally? Although I'm keen to keep things traditional, I'm not averse to change if its for the better.
Ian
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from memory,they had japanese ribbed fronts,and semi block rears
nearest are the Avon Speeedmaster/SM pairing would be the normal they would have been swopped for,
or the TT100 's
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You do realise with modern pattern tyres you can only tell they aren't classic is when the wheels aren't rotating. :)
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Lester
Shit should have gone to specksavers also derr
Cheers
Bitsa
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Avon SM's were OK for commuter bikes but I'd never put them on a bigger bike. The profile of the rear looks too square to me (so when you lean over you're riding on the corner). I always used Roadrunners on my first 500 back in the late 70s. My current 500 wears Bridgestone BT-45's, and I've been very happy with them.
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Hi,
Avon SM's and the ribbed speedmaster front tyres were as good as it got if you go far enough back as the choice of tyres were very limited, they worked well in the 60's when quite a few bikes were capable of 100mph, although I must admit that my 400/4 weighs a good amount more than an average 1960's 650cc, maybe that doesn't help with tyres.
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I ran my 550 and bmw r80rt tourer on avon ribbed front and sm mk2 rear after getting a few 'nos' tyres cheap via a mate about 5 years ago. Handling was really good, like on rails on the bmw and pretty good on the cb550k3. I reacon the bmw is a heavy bike by most peoples standards, especially in rt speck with full luggage and 2 up. Going solo but with the luggage full I even did Breacon road (cardiff to Machynlleth) in the snow. Even with little tread on the center of the rear and a few inches of slush across the entire road that bike held the roads like glue. I rate those tyres very highly though I found tyre life inproved if the tyres were stored a while rather than fitted streight from the tyre depot after ordering.
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The moral of the story: don't buy Continental supertwin tyres
?