Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Deano400 on May 12, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
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Hi,
The swing arm collar seems 'loose' in the bushes. Not sure whether it's worn over the years.
Does anyone know the spec / tolerances for the collar?
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I haven't got a clue what the spec should be on the collar but I know that will wear more than the bushes.
Edit.....OD service limit 21.35mm on the swing arm pivot.
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Thanks Julie,
21.42 one side, 21.43 the other.
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As far as the swing arm bushes go has anyone got an opinion or experience of the following:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162620652090?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true
http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB400F-SUPER-SPORT-FOUR/part_3416/
TIA
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As with most people that change the bushes, I always go for the phosphor bronze bushes. I will pm you John.
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I have used the bronze ones for several years, and fitted many sets to bikes. Good quality, just make sure to soak them in oil for 24hrs before fitting them, the bronze being porous soaks up some oil, that way even if you are neglectful in routine servicing (Greasing them etc) they will last far longer than the plastic ones Honda fitted. Plus a pair of bronze ones are cheaper than one plastic one! ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Julie / Hairy,
I was looking at getting bronze off Frank, but he's just messaged me saying he hasn't got any. I do have some plastic ones and was wondering if it was worth fitting them as they are more likely to wear rather than the pivot which are few and far between.
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Have you thought of fitting one of the needle bearing swing arm kit's from Honda4 NL?
https://honda4shop.nl/product_info.php?cPath=36_154_441&products_id=136
[attachimg=1]
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Hi,
Has anyone mounted the needle bearing version? It has no seals at all, and the two side bearings cant be greased that easy. Kind regards, Emiel
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Not sure why anyone would want to fit needle rollers, they are only suitable for complete rotational applications, not the small angular movement on a swing arm. Look at the damage inflicted on later Mini radius arms when some bean counter thought that needle rollers were better. Phos bronze every time for me. BTW phos bronze is not porous, only sintered ‘Oilite bronze’ is and that’s the material which should be soaked in oil overnight before fitting. Also Oilite bronze should never be reamed to size as it blocks the minute oil holes which give it it’s lubing properties.
Ian
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Not sure why anyone would want to fit needle rollers, they are only suitable for complete rotational applications, not the small angular movement on a swing arm. Look at the damage inflicted on later Mini radius arms when some bean counter thought that needle rollers were better. Phos bronze every time for me. BTW phos bronze is not porous, only sintered ‘Oilite bronze’ is and that’s the material which should be soaked in oil overnight before fitting. Also Oilite bronze should never be reamed to size as it blocks the minute oil holes which give it it’s lubing properties.
Ian
I'm definitely no metallurgist but I thought SAE 660 Bronze was Phosphor bronze......I could be totally wrong though.
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No Julie you are dead right, that is a phosphor bronze but no amount of immersion in oil will make it porous. That’s why I made the distinction between it and Oilite bronze which is designed to hold oil. Oilite is made by sintering which a process whereby the material is ground and powdered into the right consistency and then forced into a mould under extreme temperature and pressure. It’s the same way they make tungsten carbide tips for tools. I think Oilite was invented by Chrysler.
Phosphor bronze will be fine for those bushes though.
Ian
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No Julie you are dead right, that is a phosphor bronze but no amount of immersion in oil will make it porous. That’s why I made the distinction between it and Oilite bronze which is designed to hold oil. Oilite is made by sintering which a process whereby the material is ground and powdered into the right consistency and then forced into a mould under extreme temperature and pressure. It’s the same way they make tungsten carbide tips for tools. I think Oilite was invented by Chrysler.
Phosphor bronze will be fine for those bushes though.
Ian
Interesting stuff Ian and way over my head but I have been doing some reading on it and as long as the bushes are 841 Oilite Bronze or SAE660 bearing bronze, it doesn't seem to make any odds either way to the performance of the bush. The Oilite does not need lubricating as often, as they are self lubricating, so if you are a bit lapse on your swing arm maintenance, you will not do as much damage as if you don't maintain the swing arm with the SAE660 bushes.......
I learnt something new today that has absolutely no benefit to the quiche I'm making !!!🙂🙂🙂
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Never did like Quiche, ever since they stopped calling it bacon and egg pie 🤓
Either of those bronzes but please no needle rollers,
Ian
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Never did like Quiche, ever since they stopped calling it bacon and egg pie 🤓
Either of those bronzes but please no needle rollers,
Ian
Bacon and egg pie, surely cheese and bacon flan 😁😁😁
I only ever fit or sell bronze bushes Ian.
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Needles are a stupid idea. I have just replaced the rear shock on my dads Triumph and all linkages were rusted and gummed up even after being greased often. I am just in the process of stripping the Guzzi and every shock linkage bolt was seized in and every needle bearing was solid rust. I am now waiting for a new socket to arrive so I can remove the swingarm bolt I don't expect to see anything salvageable.
As mentioned above they are the wrong type of bearing for that kind of application
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Needles are a stupid idea. I have just replaced the rear shock on my dads Triumph and all linkages were rusted and gummed up even after being greased often. I am just in the process of stripping the Guzzi and every shock linkage bolt was seized in and every needle bearing was solid rust. I am now waiting for a new socket to arrive so I can remove the swingarm bolt I don't expect to see anything salvageable.
As mentioned above they are the wrong type of bearing for that kind of application
I love your posts of woe Mick, they make my day, and prove beyond any doubt shitalian bikes are CRAP!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What about the Triumph and that hasn't been abused like the Guzzi.
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There was a good reason why Honda killed off the Brit bike industry, quality, which even the modern Triumphs appear to lack!
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I beg to differ the overall finish on my Hondas is crap but they work I will give you that.
The Hinckley Triumphs finish is brilliant even with almost 90k on the clock it cleans up nice and the plastics are still strong.
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My 63 year old Matchless appears to have either Oil-lite or ph-bronze bushes for the swing arm which show little wear despite the half baked way the assembly is sealed on these old bikes.
Even the engine uses a similar material for the main crankshaft bearing on the timing side and for the camshafts. Only the big end has a roller bearing setup.
Footnote....
After getting the powder coating done the frame parts for this oldie the finish looks even better than my much younger 400/4 did. I suspect the Plumstead paint was applied without the influence of the accountants.
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Quality is a widely misunderstood and banded about word.
If Hondas were built to last 5 years, say? , at low cost and selling at an affordable price, but deliver reliable service to the customer then the makers would consider the bike was of high quaility.
If they had anticipated that some of their bikes would last even longer then perhaps their products were too good. Over engineering in design and manufacture would be seen as waste in their eyes.
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I don't think needle rollers have any problem in that application, it's keeping any bearing clean and lubricated that make it survive generally.
Two stroke little end bearing are usually needle/roller type and the only move in a similar angled range as a swing arm.
Also, taper rollers area just another version of needles. Fine in car wheel bearings and again invoice frame headstock with no rotational cycles, just low back and forth angular movement.
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I don't think Head stock bearings are under much pressure and don't take the same kind of punishment. They also have a chance to lube there self when turning the bars lock to lock when moving the bike around.
Little end bearings are lucky enough to get a constant supply of oil.
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Steering head bearing are under plenty of load..... needles are great but like all roller/ball bearings they need to be kept clean.
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As they don't rotate like a wheel bearing in suspension linkages you can use something other than lithium wheel bearing/general purpose grease to keep them from deteriorating. Something like the old type "Keenol " grease, used alot on marine applications as it has an oxidised zinc content which prevents corrosion due to salt environments. Those links on newer single shock links get bathed in it if used year round.
It'll probably solve your problems Mick with the items you've indicated.
The multi purpose greases that are generally used are formulated with rotational friction reduction in mind to avoid adding heat build up to the design running it. If you take away that need you can use the Keenol type which is not suitable for constant / high speed rotation. It's good for headstock too.
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I have repacked most of the bearings now ::)
A few hours cleaning them out coming up I thinks.
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The general grease is fine for making the bearing work so it'll not cause you a problem.
Its just the resistances to corrosion that is the most useful part of the Keenol type grease.
The things I run year round I smear it into any Allen bolt heads and cross headed screws to stop them corroding, it seems almost completely unaffected by salt spray.
For the earlier poster, I'd use Keenol in those needle roller swing arm conversion kit as well, especially as it appears to have no seal. This type of grease will effectively give you a water repellent seal anyway.
For the bronze bushes, I'd use cv type grease as it contains moly in a very gooey base. It'll probably last the life of the bearing if packed out with it.
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Very interesting read everyone. You learn something new every day on here.
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I shall leave it in there then. The keenol sounds like just the ticket for the Guzzi as every fixing seems to weld itself in even if removed often.
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What grease would you recommend for the prop splines?
I have always used lithium on universal joints but never sure what to put on the splines.
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The splines are a bit of a weird one as the drive faces are effectively static in relation to each other in transmitting the torque so don't really have much lubrication required as such. But the sliding to accommodate suspension travel does but it's not too demanding.
Most of that type seem to use straight lithium grease. It's more important that it's actually in there than the type of grease really, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to switch to something else. Making sure it's greased to schedule should be sufficient.
If you had to consider something else it would be CV grease as it has a very high resistance to spalling in high torque applications.