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Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: andy120t on November 18, 2020, 06:08:40 PM

Title: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: andy120t on November 18, 2020, 06:08:40 PM
So this is a bit of open one, but what are your thoughts on the move to electric?

I was talking with a friend about my search for a replacement car and he threw in the 'E' word. My reaction was 'no' . My next car might be my last fossil fuel one but I like a big old diesel estate and all the issues - cost, range, etc - of electric puts me off for now. But I imagine my next car ( they last for ten years or so for me)  could be my last petrol/ diesel one. But will I be confident in battery technology in 5-10 years time?...it's bound to have progressed by then.

Having said that, I haven't driven electric, and whilst Covid  is making it harder to go out and sample new vehicles, my understanding is its 0-60 in very little time (is that the same for an e-Micra?).  Plus (currently) zero road-tax. But when I drive a long way I don't want to wait for ages to charge up .. having waited ages for an available socket.

So that's cars. What about bikes? The e-TT looks quick, but so quiet.

And, do I sell them all now before they become worthless ?! (No!) There must be a long run- off period for petrol, surely, so maybe my kids can still inherit the fleet and get some use from them? 

Cleaner, greener world is good for all of us, but I'm just interested in how that will change the things we love!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: mike the bike on November 18, 2020, 06:28:44 PM
I wouldn't say no to an electric bike.  Ideal for blatting over the mountain to work every day, but I would fancy touring with it.  There's so many unanswered questions about electric vehicles, mainly about charging them up.  I'm OK, there's 2 cars and 2 bikes on my drive but terraced houses with no drives, blocks of flats etc.
"I'm just going out to charge the car dear, there's bound to be a queue so don't wait up"
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Spitfire on November 18, 2020, 06:33:34 PM
As far as cars are concerned I would buy an electric car tomorrow if they weren't so expensive, at the moment the only electric car that I could afford are the go kart sized ones.
I've just bought a new car and would have had to find another ten grand or so to have an EV of the same size.
As to bikes, I've had mine so long now that they are part of the family and in ten years time they will become family heirlooms.

Cheers

Dennis
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Johnwebley on November 18, 2020, 06:36:03 PM
My personal opinion is electric is ideal for local area work.

But a red herring for longer trips.

I think they should go the energy cell route.



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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: philward on November 18, 2020, 06:40:06 PM
They will overcome the issues - neccesity is the mother of all invention! Industry will chase the business. I have said before, the more mainstream ridable classics like we ride (as opposed to museum bikes like Brough's and Vincents) will loose value as we get taxed & legislated of the road - not for a while though!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: UK Pete on November 18, 2020, 06:48:31 PM
I would like to have electric car and bike, but certainly not now ,they are just not ready yet
But battery technology is moving really fast, and it's now been announced that 2030 is the cut off point and there will no longer be petrol/ diesel cars for sale new ,
I am a van person dont really use cars, its going to be a really long time before they can get commercial vehicles that will do the job, so I dont think I will ever see a van with the right price and range in my time left while able to drive
As for bikes, it really excites me that perhaps 5 years down the line there will be a decent bike with range and acceptable price,
Bring it on is what I say
But my passion will always be with the combustion engine

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Title: !
Post by: Laverda Dave on November 18, 2020, 06:54:33 PM
Like it or not it’s going to happen and we'll all be electric!

Like you though my concern is not with the technology of electric but the complete lack of infrastructure to support electric vehicles. I live in outer London where flats rule so how do the govt think these people are going to charge their cars and bikes from the 12 floor of a tower block? You are lucky to see a couple of charging points in a car park at shopping centres whilst very little if anything exists on the street. I can see residents of houses with no parking trailing leads from their letterboxes out to their cars parked in the street overnight. The ambulance chasing solicitors will have a field day claiming against the owners for leaving the charging leads across unlit pavements causing injury.
The raw materials to make the batteries are also running out even now and we haven't even started mass production yet! These materials are also dug from the ground, usually in remote areas, you know the kind of remote areas that mankind hasn't yet fully destroyed but that will soon change. The materials used in the batteries is also very nasty and difficult, if not impossible, to safely dispose of (but we can always dump it back into the pits where the raw materials were dug from!). There are quite a few Toyota Prius cars getting illegally dumped in the streets now their batteries have expired and the owners don't want to pay the scrapping fees.

I remember Top Gear a few years ago when it was good, and Clarkson tested the i8 BMW electric sports car against the 5 Series Alpine. He loved it, raved about it, thought it was the dogs B's. Until that is he reached the limit of the charge, it was about 200 miles under 'normal' driving but give it some beans and it was really poor. He then had the option of waiting a few hours at a motorway service station for it to charge or to jump into the old petrol Alpine 5 Series to get back home. Obviously he didn't wait around. And that sums up electric vs petrol (or diesel), convenience and ease of use, at the moment electric is a very poor second but it’s being pushed hard and soon we won't have any choice what we buy.

I won't be getting rid of any of my bikes anytime soon, the petrol companies will cry foul for starters and by the time petrol disappears for good I'll be too old to care!

I actually drove an electric vehicle 50 years ago; it was a Unigate milk float when our local milko let me have a go as a kid, even back then that could accelerate quickly!

Personally if I was botherd I would go out and buy a tuned to the eyeballs KH750 Kawasaki just to make sure I use up what fuel is left!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on November 18, 2020, 07:15:40 PM
Infrastructure again but Hydrogen cell seems to offer more flexibility. Pointless though, unless produced cleanly as most is currently made from hydrocarbons.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Athame57 on November 18, 2020, 07:15:54 PM
I reckon they will delay this a while myself, like the channel tunnel, a recent act of national redemption and the M25. By 2030 I'll be 73 and maybe I won't care anymore? ;)
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 18, 2020, 07:18:42 PM
HM Gov get a very high income in the way of taxes from petrol/ diesel which they can't balance the books without. I won't be selling any of my bikes because of this plan. It won't be retrospective anyway and tbh, I think its a load of wishful thinking by the Gov.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 18, 2020, 07:19:20 PM
Will not affect me I'll  have gone up in smoke at local crem by then. 👆👆
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Johnwebley on November 18, 2020, 07:24:47 PM
Will not affect me I'll  have gone up in smoke at local crem by then.
You think.

I fully intend to be riding long after  2030.




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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 18, 2020, 07:27:58 PM
Me too John and won’t be on electric bike hopefully.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Trigger on November 18, 2020, 07:29:33 PM
It will never work. They designed the new London taxi to be electric and then told the mayor that they needed 28000 charging stations in London. There is no room so, they redesigned the black cab to have a petrol engine to charge the batteries  ::)  And they say this is OK as, it is the electric motor that is the drive and not the petrol engine.
 Like in the 60's saying, by the year 1990 cars would be flying and this will make the roads obsolete.

Since i have lived in Lincolnshire they, have had wind turbines off the coast of Skegness which have been turning for the past 5 years or more. This year they decided to lay the cables to link them up to a sub station  :o 
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: MrDavo on November 18, 2020, 07:37:43 PM
I’ll believe it when I see it, same as driverless cars. What could possibly go wrong? Imagine the fun to be had when you come home to find someone else parked, quite legally, outside your house. Suddenly your lead won’t reach, and you can’t charge your car to go to work tomorrow!

On the other hand they probably never thought anything would take over from the horse and cart. I’m still waiting for my hoverboard and flying car.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: kevski on November 18, 2020, 07:42:32 PM
Will not affect me I'll  have gone up in smoke at local crem by then. 👆👆

Via Electric, diesel or petrol? ;D
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Green1 on November 18, 2020, 08:24:34 PM
Electric is coming weather you like it or not.
One of my customers is a major car dealer he sells almost everything new apart from Fiat and Ford and the posh Italian stuff.
His managers all drive Teslas.
I don't understand why so many people suffer from range anxiety when the average commute is less then a 30 mile round trip.

Vans will be more of an issue
My daily commute is normally around 100 and 130miles. Most electric cars can achive this now but I only drive vans and I will be sticking with Diesel until they manage to make a van that can achieve that with at least half a load on board.

I can't see vehicals with Tacho's being to much of an issue as they are forced to stop so that gives a chance for the batteries to be topped up.

The infrastructure is the largest obstical. At the moment manufacturers are all compeating with each other so they all have different chargers. Much like how phones were a few years ago until the chargers were all standerdized.

Tesla are planning to make the batteries easy to remove. Slide in slide out so they can be changed in seconds at a service station. This is how EV's must go to be viable.
In reality it should be quiker then stopping for fuel and queing waiting to pay.

Gas is also on the way out and Cremitoriums will be putting us all in large pressure pots and flushing us down the drains.
The only thing left will be pacemakers and Titanium joints for recycling.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 18, 2020, 08:28:56 PM
Will not affect me I'll  have gone up in smoke at local crem by then. 👆👆

Via Electric, diesel or petrol? ;D

As Gas will also be gone ill go for the Zorastrian Option and let the birds have a feast.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 18, 2020, 08:30:57 PM
Maybe the time scale will be like the DAB radio switch over years late for switching off FM.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Green1 on November 18, 2020, 08:35:11 PM
I should think fuel will be avalable until around 2045 ish if your lucky and then there just won't be the damand for it.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 18, 2020, 08:48:33 PM
We own an electric car. The BMW i3; and basically Mrs Lobo’s. I’m blown away by it, and reckon we’ll never buy an ICE again.
In Oz the charging infrastructure is poor, and this little BMW comes with an optional REX (range extender) which is basically a BMW 600cc Scooter engine in the boot / 9L fuel tank, which can be started to maintain battery charge. (It does not drive the wheels). We use it < 2/year; but it gives peace of mind and allows us to go anywhere as performance is not affected. (Elect range is 150 miles)
Every 2/3 days Karen plugs it into the garage, and at max rate it takes around 5 hrs to fully charge. (we have a level 2 charger... does around 7kW max: charging it off the 10A mains would take around 15hrs). We have 10kW of solar, so have no fuel bill ... result.
It is like a Scalelextric to drive, and with zero kerfuffle will have you first away from the lights every time.. and this is not even a sports model. The torque is amazing.

Honestly, I look under the bonnets of modern cars and cringe. Mentally I see just sh*t, and want to rip out the block, turbos, hoses, pumps, radiators, servos... all those endless heavy things that just cause grief. One word goes round in my head... WHY? 😂.
Servicing is minimal; basically limited to brake fluid changes... and oil change for the scooter engine! Tesla say (I think) that the brake pads are for life... these EVs, if driven correctly, just use regen braking. Certainly we rarely touch the brake pedal.

The battery is guaranteed for 8 years; too far way to worry yet.

Bottom line is it hinges around the ease of charging I guess; my sister has just bought the Kona EV and is comfortable driving Basingstoke - Norfolk .... with a top-up from a fast charger at destination. I guess the UK is getting a handle on it...

Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Johnwebley on November 18, 2020, 08:54:19 PM
I should think fuel will be avalable until around 2045 ish if your lucky and then there just won't be the damand for it.
I hope I am still riding then.

Just worked out I will be 95.


As for the bikes. Quite a few 100+ year old vehicles still running

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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Athame57 on November 18, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
Will not affect me I'll  have gone up in smoke at local crem by then. 👆👆
Via Electric, diesel or petrol? ;D
What's wrong with a good old fashioned wood burner?
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Athame57 on November 18, 2020, 10:06:09 PM
(https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s640x640/125888099_10158901323295477_2568818267314934826_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=mFf_xQvEif8AX8KvNAc&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr1-1.fna&tp=7&oh=e3af3f312cdb6422dcb9aa3a0bbeb93e&oe=5FDCD5CA)
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on November 18, 2020, 10:37:09 PM
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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 18, 2020, 11:03:23 PM
...hey Tim, that’s my wife’s car!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on November 18, 2020, 11:20:29 PM
...hey Tim, that’s my wife’s car!
Fair Dinkum mate!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Bryanj on November 18, 2020, 11:30:14 PM
Had a Lexus 450h for a year, well the wife has, 30mpg+ from a 3.5 V6aint bad and christ is it quick.

On an asside Boris has said houses by 2023 will be so snug they wont need boilers-----so then in summer you melt, have to get aircon and use 4 times the lecky!!!!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: taysidedragon on November 19, 2020, 12:40:41 AM
This government hasn't met a single deadline yet, or the others before it. 2030 will get  delayed like everything else.
As already said, we don't have the recharging network, and certainly won't have enough charge points by 2030. Billions of pounds will get handed out to 'favoured' companies (don't get me started on minister's feathering their own nests!) and we'll end up with a pig's breakfast of a network at the end that doesn't do the job. 😣

The only things that will work for many people are self-charging hybrids or hydrogen cells. There's a farmer in Aberdeenshire running hydrogen on his tractors and one of his cars. Just put water in the tank to run it and clean emissions. It costs a bit to fit it at the moment but that will definitely come down significantly.

I regularly drive from Scotland to Wales, about 480 miles in a day. There is no way I'm charging an electric car for hours, once or even twice, on that journey. It wouldn't be practical at all.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on November 19, 2020, 07:37:22 AM
This government hasn't met a single deadline yet,
Except for nest feathering you refer to which must be far exceded. Well done chaps.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: paulbaker1954 on November 19, 2020, 07:57:28 AM
Personally am all for it overall but like many see this as a massively overambitousnplanndesigned to make the gov feel smug. All electric will happen eventually, after all fossil fuel,supplies are not infinite.

What worries me is what will happen to the classic vehicles, these after all are a part of our history and should be preserved for road use. Maybe we will have to hang out and night on street corners to score fuel from a neighbourhood dealer 😂😂😂

I will probably be near a box or in one by then but my son is desperate to inherit my four.

Like all gov plans all laudable but not thought through. As many have said it’s the charging infrastructure that’s the big stumbling block.

Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: sye on November 19, 2020, 08:00:35 AM
My business has been running a Nissan E-NV200 electric van for five years now. It's used for local deliveries and does around 100 miles to a charge. We also have 16kw/h solar panel installation and air source heat pumps. The 3-phase charger charges the van in around 3 hours using self-generated electricity and the business can claim all of the vans purchase cost, so it's effectively a free van and free miles.

All of the business heating is done through air source heat pumps. Brilliant bits of kit. Heat in winter and cool in summer. Each one consumes around 3.5kw and produces 7kw of heat or cooling. Very clever tech. The result of the solar panel installation, the use of all LED lamps and air source heat pumps is that we pay no electricity bills every year. We are always in credit and earn a little from it.

Jan (my O/H) has an E-Niro that is just brilliant. Proper car that does 300 miles to a full charge. Comfy, quick and very cheap to run. We have 3.5kw of solar panels on the garage roof that generates enough excess electricity to cover the cars requirements, so free miles. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone. There is no doubt that electric cars are the immediate future. AFAIK, commercial vans and lorries are not included in the 2030 deadline, just cars.

I agree that the infrastructure is not ready for EV's and that the amount of electricity required will increase massively. There is a simple solution though. All new home should be built with heat pumps and fitted with solar roof tiles. The additional cost at the build stage is half of the retrofit option. If every new or existing home could generate 3kw/h of electricity during daylight hours then usage would be greatly offset.

I'm a bit of a dinosaur too and drive a 3l V6 TDI car which I'm not going to change but I can see the benefits of EV's and certainly see the environmental benefits of such a change.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: MrDavo on November 19, 2020, 08:33:44 AM
When we were in the US we stayed in Massachusetts with a couple. She had a Prius hybrid, but while she was busy saving the planet, he had a V8 pickup truck, plus a boat with twin petrol V8s, that did gallons to the mile!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 19, 2020, 10:22:31 AM
I am not convinced that our global warming is substantially man made. Unfortunately research grants at UK Universities are not given to anyone who want to look at alternative causes. All we are doing at the moment is moving the exhaust pipe from individual vehicles to power stations. The production of batteries is far from clean if you look at all aspects including the mineral mining. Can't see electric powered equipment in mines. I believe the carrot works better than the stick. I am at an age where I will never buy a new electric car. I've only ever purchased one brand new car in my lifetime. Due to the government grants on new cars I feel tax payers are indirectly subsidising the Tesla buyers as well as the Nissan Leaf.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: SumpMagnet on November 19, 2020, 10:45:37 AM
The 'hybrid' market is a crazy thing.

People pushing 'self charging hybrids' need to be given a stern talking to, as these things are the worst on every level. You have a battery vehicle lugging a big heavy petrol generator. When you run the generator, you have an inefficient charging setup. Run it as a petrol car, and you have a battery pack load to lug about...worsening the fuel usage.

Plug in hybrids can at least charge from external sources and properly use the petrol motor for emergencies....but...you still have that weight of redundant power supply to carry with you all the time reducing efficiency.

Ships and trains use an electric/fossil fuel combo, but they don;t pretend to be green...and do it for sounder engineering principles in vehicles where weight is less of a penalty.

But...if we all have electric vehicles....there will be a need to generate a LOT more power, and I suspect the current thinkers will be forced to go back down the nuclear rabbit hole sooner or later. It solves todays problems...and defers the consequences to teh next generation. Nice....

When it comes to efficient commuter vehicles.....light weight and simplicity should make electric motorcycles viable.....yet they are still stupidly expensive, and oddly limited. Aside from those illegal deathtrap scooter things that plague the roads and pavements of London. Zero is as close to a major manufacturer, but I won;t pay £15k for a bike with limited spares availability and no backing from a major manufacturer. Not when it delivers performance on a par with a 5K conventional bike. Of course...I can buy the cheap version without the long range battery pack...and charge it every other day. Though I did see a KTM offroader a while back with a 50mile range...and a removable pack you can charge off a 240v socket. Would get me to work and back for a day...but without charging infrastructure, it would be easy to charge in my house. If it's light...quick off the mark....and able to easily hit 60mph....that's plenty for town.
Title: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: allankelly1 on November 19, 2020, 11:41:58 AM
Hi all

To be honest the electric vehicle my cut down pollution locally but as for global warming it will make no impact what so ever

Got a chance to be on the flight deck of a 777 during a business flight to America before 9/11 and they asked what do you think we are doing miles per gallon and the 777 burns thru a ton of fuel ever 10 mins

(For that flight (Gatwick to Dever) total fuel used was about 50 tons)

Just picture that for a moment that’s a ton of fuel  ever ten min for just 1 plane

So if you want to have any impact then  non essential air travel has to go as this form
of transportation is one of the world biggest polluter / generators of CO2 plus China India and the USA with general CO2 output

But I thing the biggest elephant in the room question is uncontrollable population growth

Unfortunately I think it’s all a bit too little / late and the human race is now on borrowed time and Mother Nature at some point will reset the clock

Rant over

Best wishes Al


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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 19, 2020, 11:54:58 AM
Quote: “But...if we all have electric vehicles....there will be a need to generate a LOT more power, and I suspect the current thinkers will be forced to go back down the nuclear rabbit hole sooner or later. It solves todays problems...and defers the consequences to teh next generation. Nice....”

Surely SumpMagnet, the generation of more (electrical) energy will be totally offset (+ more) by the reduction of fossil fuel requirements for those same cars? A modern ICE car is 20-35% efficient in converting petrol into motive force; whereas an EV is 55-70% converting power station to motive. But if it’s battery is charged / offset by personal solar panels (we mostly have our own roofs) the efficiencies just get better....

As for your thoughts on efficient m/cs being the future; yep it makes sense to this forum. But alas Joe Public by-and-large wants 4 wheeled chariots / protection from the weather & idiot road users ... so I guess that one won’t fly 🙁.

My gut feeling is we’re back in the late 1800s, where horses were the only way, and the new fangled Otto cycle car thingy was completely laughable due its massive ferrous material demands, combustible liquid requirements, and complete lack of infrastructure. We’ve been here before... it’s no different.

Personally, I’m bloody amazed that a backward reciprocating engine & its support systems with hundreds of moving parts had survived into the 21st century... when an EV has abouts 20 moving parts.  What gives eh?
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 19, 2020, 12:29:32 PM
Al... I’m retired now, but flew long haul for a living, B757, B767, B777 & B787.

All very ball park...

The B777 does indeed burn around 6T/hr, but for that you get to transport 300 folk, plus a few tonnes of cargo at 550mph.

Let’s say that’s 150 typical car loads, each car using 40kg of fuel, or 12 (Imp) gallons.
... meaning, that on 12 gallons each car takes you 550miles, achieving 45mpg.

Generally cars have one occupant, few have 4. Aircraft generally fly close to full... and as such, are arguably (person for person) kinder to the atmosphere. Certainly, I don’t believe, they deserve any more stick than the personal ICE automobile.

I do agree however on overpopulation!
Title: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: allankelly1 on November 19, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
But that’s the problem

The electric car is not the fix it’s a total move away from burning fossil fuel for the human race end off

(And not going nuclear either as thats not green or renewable)

As for planes the problem is the CO2 is dumped at high altitude and that is where it stays so maybe not as kind as it looks

It’s interesting that just after 9/11 air travel in the states was halted and due to no flight and therefore on con trails the actual average temp at ground level was measure to increase by at least 1 degree as the con trails reflect the sun heat back out into space so basically I think we are screwed stop flying the CO2 is reduced but the temp increases anyway due to no con trails




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Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Moorey on November 19, 2020, 01:57:39 PM
What it is doing and will continue to do in this country is to penalize the poorer end of society. Why should those who can afford and want to buy new EVs be sponsored by by the less well off.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: SumpMagnet on November 19, 2020, 02:24:02 PM
@Lobo ... don't see how the reduction in use of petrol/diesel will help with power generation. Power generation on the scale we will need it doesn't  use them, and the whole point is NOT to use them. The electricity has to be generated somehow.

Solar power in the UK is not so simple. Especially in the large urban areas where electric vehicles make the most sense. Large number s of people rent...and cannot fit panels unless the owner chooses to.... or else they live in flats where they don;t have their own roof...or anywhere to park a car and charge it.

I am in the process of trying to move to a house in London with a garage.....and I am out on the fringes. Still costing a shedload of money....well...actually I can get a shed pretty cheaply....

Our glorious leadership has decided we have 10 years before IC engines will no longer be sold. I worry that there simply isn't the power generation capacity to cope with the demand...and money needs to be invested in the generation of more power, and the distribution network to carry it to where it's needed. On top of that, I wonder if the current push for 'hybrids' indicates they are not going to be banned in 10 years.

If that is so...my bike is officially a Hybrid right now. If I switch off the engine and hold the starter button.....I can move. Hybrid. Self charging too...as pop the killswitch to 'run' and the battery recharges. Simple
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: cliff7 on November 19, 2020, 04:17:35 PM
What with Zoom and "excellent" electronic communication I'm sure much office type work can be done from home. Also more people are allegedly doing their shopping online. i know a few people working from home some days who reckon they are more productive, less time spent in traffic jams. I'm retired so don't really need a car. I realise many people need one as I did when I was working but they are an inefficient form of transport as has been said they often only have 1 occupant.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: andy120t on November 19, 2020, 06:18:38 PM
I work from home all the time now and the car / bike have become, if anything, more essential as I use them as a break from work at lunchtimes. I don't always have the energy for a walk but a nice ride or drive is just the thing.

Mileage wise, most of my journeys are 6-60 miles so no concerns day to day with electric and I have a drive and garage so plenty of space for charging and it's a small behaviour change to plug in each day rather than drive for petrol.  It still comes back to range and infrastructure - I travel regularly to Suffolk (100 miles) and would need to be charged there ..but granny-in-law doesn't have that facility in her remote cottage. Plus I go to North Yorkshire a lot - often late on Friday and with the family - and Ive seen the queues for the only Tesla charge point on the A1. I don't want to add that to my journey.

No doubt though, we'll still be riding our bikes in 40 years time as the cost of forcing everyone to scrap petrol and diesel cars will be too high. I guess though that 100 years or so ago all the carts were recycled as firewood and the horses as ....burgers? So one day we'll have batteries that look like SOHC engines and the old ones might be baked-bean tins!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: ST1100 on November 20, 2020, 11:08:59 AM
What I unfortunately see omitted in the debates (and largely ignored if not even kept secret in all the "propaganda") are the issues of mining and processing the resources...

Already replacing a conventional vehicle with an "so much better" new one requiring mining bauxite (i.e. South America), ship it (crude oil freighters) across half the planet to plants in places like Asia where they produce aluminum cheap (more profitable) due the non existing environmental regulations, mining ore for steel production, dissolving copper out the rock with toxic harmful chemicals, etc, etc...
By the time this "oh so new" car is finally here, we've blown out so much CO² and other substances, my old EURO2 '96 Toyota probably couldn't emit in the next 500~1000 years...

Looking at EVs the issues for the environment described above are worsened largely by the additional mining and processing of Cobalt, Lithium and other substances required for the batteries...

Since decades one can observe mass-manipulation...
first vehicle tax classified by engine displacement...
Everyone ran to buy a modern car, once the majority had changed to the smaller, more efficient EFI engines, they announced "ha! and now we tax you by HP/kW output!"
Once this was milked, they announced catalytic converters mandatory... again everyone threw money into the industry...
Then the "drive diesel! Its economical and environmental friendly" message was omnipresent... (sponsored due state subsidized prices on diesel fuel)
Once >75% of cars out there were diesel, the course changed again, diesel is bad, you need to buy a new diesel with particle filter...
After the market was saturated, we of course suddenly needed an even newer one with diesel-KAT instead...

The oxymoron: the "old" cars didn't even get off the road, they continue to run in Eastern Europe and African countries (so much about reducing global pollution...)

The only one profiting from all this were industries and their share holders...

And now we can observe the same with this artificially generated EV-hype again...
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: royhall on November 20, 2020, 11:53:34 AM
When we were in the US we stayed in Massachusetts with a couple. She had a Prius hybrid, but while she was busy saving the planet, he had a V8 pickup truck, plus a boat with twin petrol V8s, that did gallons to the mile!
I know which route I would be going down. V8 boats are incredible especially with two of the sods. Personally I don't see the 2030 thing happening as there simply is not enough time. The 2040 date was more realistic but it wasn't BoJo's idea. They are talking about massive windfarms, new generation nuclear power plants etc etc all in 10 years. HS2 has been going longer than that and not a rail laid so far. Logistics simply will not allow it to happen.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: MCTID on November 20, 2020, 01:07:53 PM
Some great comments on here....all have some validity, but here's my twopennyworth (or should it be 2KW's worth).

Given the recent monumental Government Cock Ups of recent years - Smart Meters which don't work, about turns on Diesel Vehicles, moving Vehicle Taxation on line and losing £100M revenue in the following year, Covid, Mass Testing, Lockdown policies changing with the wind/ tides/ sunrise and sunset etc etc etc, all I can say is that whatever route we go down the Government MUST not have anything whatsoever to do with it.

It would be far better to hold a competition between the inmates of all Lunatic Asylums in the UK, and select a panel of 10 of the craziest people from them, and then let them formulate a plan for how this country manages how we go forward with EV's.

Not as daft as you might think.....as I guarantee that 10 of the craziest people in the UK would probably come up with a better plan than ALL of the politicians in the HOC and ALL those politicians sleeping in the HOL !
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: MrDavo on November 20, 2020, 01:40:50 PM
I thought the same when I read the plans to replace road fuel duty with road pricing to cover the shortfall when we all go electric.

As with the Congestion Charge plans for Greater Manchester, and plans to limit care home fees, if the Government announce it will definitely happen at some unspecified time in the future, you can guarantee it definitely won’t happen.

By the way I have a prediction that one day I will be run over by an electric car I didn’t hear coming. They should all be made to have the equivalent of a lolly  stick  in bicycle spokes to make an artificial noise.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: K2-K6 on November 20, 2020, 02:19:49 PM
"By the way I have a prediction that one day I will be run over by an electric car I didn’t hear coming. They should all be made to have the equivalent of a lolly  stick  in bicycle spokes to make an artificial noise."

Something of a repeat in ways,  my father worked with an older guy who'd driven trolley busses in reading before they'd been replaced with diesel, and runovers of pedestrians where given the name of "silent death" for the above circumstances.

Which also brings up one way to reduce, in metropolis polution, and requiring no on vehicle storage, trolley busses for all significant urban working routes would make alot of sense.

Speaking of the political decision making the wrong choices. Visiting Crich the last time for bike meet,  I rode the tramway on one of them that would have operated Wimbledon to Hampton Court (near to where I live) and didn't even know that a line had existed there. If we as a country hadn't thrown away so much of our railed infrastructure there probably wouldn't be so many private vehicles around now. What great irony.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: MCTID on November 20, 2020, 03:38:47 PM
Shouldn't laugh at Mr Davo's comments but on the day that the modern Trams came into service in Manchester, a pedestrian was run over and killed....the same happened on the first day the modern Croydon Trams ran.

I lived and worked in Manchester for many years and the Public Transport Service was so poor that EVERYBODY had Cars or Motorbikes....if you wanted to get to work - either on time - or at all !

When I went to work in London for LU and started to go everywhere by Tube, Bus, Tram or Train it was like being 'liberated'.......I could go anywhere, anytime and I never used my car apart from the commute to the Railway Station......I certainly never used it to go into the City - even though I worked there.

You only have to look at the massive expansion of the Trams in our major cities to see how sensible they are, and no doubt their future will be key in reducing Carbon Emissions and urban pollution.

K2-K6....when you work on the Operational Railway you soon learn to have eyes and ears in the back of your head as those 200 Tonne Trains travelling at 70MPH don't stop.....and certainly not when a 15 stone bloke gets in the way ! When the Bombardier Electrostar Trains first came into service, they were also known as the 'Silent Death' !

Lastly...who remembers that grand scheme to close Motorways late at night, and using huge convoys of large Hovercraft to shift goods all over the country when most of us were asleep ?
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: cliff7 on November 20, 2020, 04:32:36 PM
About 3 million cars on the road when I was born. Now over 30 million!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 20, 2020, 11:18:11 PM
I think the thread is slightly misleading as it seems (to me) that we’re assuming ICE cars will be banned from 2030. This is not the case, rather you won’t be able to buy a new one from that date. So, presumably, you could buy an ICE in Dec 2029, and expect legislations / infrastructures to support it for at least 10 years. (?)
That would take us up to 2040, and after this date one would hope fuel would be still available to support classic vehicles with the appropriate approvals. (That would satisfy most of us on this forum 😂)

I think latest legislation has now mandated EVs to include ‘noise’ to aid pedestrians up to urban speeds. Our 2yo i3’s (virtual 🙁) Handbook refers noise generation as a forthcoming fit. (Ie not option)

The BMW i8 (more of a concept car) provides selectable V8 etc noise generation ... within! Guess that’s for the dinosaurs 😂. (But why wouldn’t ya just buy a V8??). I’ll be honest, I don’t get noisy cars, and don’t get me started Harleys & their bloody din. To accelerate from standstill to motorway speeds in one big push / in complete silence is however, impressive.

Comments have been made about the stupidity of lumping around small ICE Range Extenders, and Hybrids.
(1) it is unfair to expect technology to provide us with the perfect replacement in one iteration. The early EVs had 60mile ranges (or so) due battery technology, and to meet strict Californian laws on the definition of an EV, whilst satisfying those with range anxiety, BMW chose to option a small included ICE generator with minimal fuel tank. This 650cc REX (Range Extender) was never intended for daily use, but more as redundancy. It stayed as an option through to the 94Ah battery.
Recently BMW have dropped the REX as the latest battery (120Ah) range is considered sufficient.

(2) Hybrids kinda don’t make sense as all the motive force ultimately comes from the fuel tank. And yet Toyota’s RAV 4 Hybrid quotes efficiency as something like 4.5 L / 100km...versus their pure ICE variant quoting 7L/100km. So... the technology makes sense. (I guess it’s because you can run the ICE at max efficiency most of the time?)

An interesting thread... thanks.

Disclaimer! I’m no BMW fan, there are a lot of good EVs out there. But... I was swayed by its carbon-fibre / composite build, its REX, and the fact that it was designed and built as an EV from day #1. It’s impressed me, the engineering is genuinely superb.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: royhall on November 21, 2020, 08:31:17 AM
The BMW I8 is a fantastic looking car and the tech in there is unbelievable. But at £115,000 it bloody well should be. Not really an everyman car nor the answer to anything green. Due to the vast quantity of greenhouse emissions involved in making a standard new car never mind the battery problems of an EV it's been proved that the cleanest car you will ever drive is the one you have now. The emissions from your present car will never match the massive emissions of building a new car and recycling your old one. Good stunt to frighten the population into buying new cars on mass though. This whole 2030 thing is a poorly thought out hodge podge yet again. The biggest economic change in the countries history hits in 6 weeks perhaps we should get through that first before the next scheme.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: ST1100 on November 21, 2020, 09:20:26 AM
(1) it is unfair to expect technology to provide us with the perfect replacement in one iteration.
<snip>
(2) Hybrids kinda don’t make sense as all the motive force ultimately comes from the fuel tank.
So why is the flow-cell technology still suppressed then? (likely lobbying... ::))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery)
We could use/adapt existing infrastructure (gas stations, plants, tank storage...) easily, we are used to handle "potential harmful liquids" due petrol/diesel, drivers wouldn't need to change behavior (drive up to the pump, replace tank content with replenished solutions, be back on the road within 5 minutes...), 50~80ltr filling could carry you +800km and more (instead of hauling a battery arrays weighting about a ton...)
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 21, 2020, 10:40:11 AM
Fascinating story in the link below. I know somebody who has one in his barn totally unrestored .. he was a supplier of key componets at the start of the project. BTW ..persevere with it until after the intro ..it's not all in Greek and they do interview the original UK design guys.

Click on 'Sorry watch on Vimeo' message and enter password 8000

https://vimeo.com/90157625
password  8000
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Trigger on November 21, 2020, 12:11:51 PM
Never trust Greeks with car manufacturing, i remember the Pony  :o
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Warthog1959 on November 21, 2020, 12:37:11 PM
The long way up with Charlie Boorman and Ewan McGregor reveals loads about ebikes and ecars I’m only on episode 3 but the 13,000 mile trip from the the southern top of Argentina to LA isn’t going to be easy, but what a massive learning curve for the manufacturers. The support vehicles are electric 4 x 4’s and the bikes are electric Harley Davidsons. There are many difficulties, but in a harsh environment. Sorry if this is already mentioned, hasn’t had time to read it all.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 21, 2020, 01:04:04 PM
Wow Ash, you certainly dig up the most interesting stuff. One notable point was the billions of $ spent ‘protecting’ / ensuring oil supplies .... and the fact that this significant cost is never seen at the pump as gets lumped in with National Security.

Roy, can’t disagree with your point wrt current car being the green’ist. But... it ain’t a practical comment - like us, cars wear out! And the BMW i8, to my knowledge is not a serious offering, but rather a concept / toy-for-the-rich car.

ST1100 - I can’t answer that, I’m so bloody jaded with “fake news” that I honestly don’t know what to believe anymore. (genuinely). You say this... and 3 posts later someone else will chip in with his views on the safest / cheapest / kindest to Mother Earth  ... wrt battery type. It’s all politics - you gravitate to what you want to believe.
My only thought / answer, is that, in this overly commercialised world, no manufacturer, given the stakes, is going to invest massive outlay in risky technology - whether it be commercial, safety, lead time, infrastructure issues .. whatever.

What I can comment though, is based on owning & driving both ICE & EVs. One is undoubtedly the way forward, and the other, well, triumph over adversity. Oh, and btw, I was economical with the truth on the EV servicing costs... I forgot to mention replacement wiper blades 😂.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 21, 2020, 03:49:09 PM
Never trust Greeks with car manufacturing, i remember the Pony  :o

So glad you enjoyed it Graham. Maybe this clip is more to your taste  :) :) :) :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VJ6_4yCkw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zWauVX9QyY

I gleaned this from the man I know who supplied parts in the UK for the original car.

“We supplied all the contactors for the car and the control system by today’s standards was to say the least a bit primitive. It had 48V batteries and its speed was regulated by first of all, batteries being in parallel = 12V, then two in parallel in series with two in parallel = 24V, then all batteries in series  = 48V. In between each voltage stage the motor fields were switched from parallel to series giving a total of 6 speeds. Each stage was switched by our changeover contactor.
 
The vehicles undoing, apart from its cost, was of course the good old lead acid battery – massive weight with limited capacity and consequent short range. This shortcoming was compounded by the fact that the car used lorry batteries rather than traction batteries. Automobile and lorry batteries are unsuitable for deep discharges and of course electric cars deep discharge their batteries consistently and battery life was thus limited”.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: ST1100 on November 21, 2020, 05:27:25 PM
One might also wonder about the real motives they killed the EV1 over on 2002...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1)

BTW is it predicted that the costs of charging an EV will soon be noticeable higher then filling a tank with conventional fuel...
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Athame57 on November 21, 2020, 08:48:52 PM



The vehicles undoing, apart from its cost, was of course the good old lead acid battery – massive weight with limited capacity and consequent short range. This shortcoming was compounded by the fact that the car used lorry batteries rather than traction batteries. Automobile and lorry batteries are unsuitable for deep discharges and of course electric cars deep discharge their batteries consistently and battery life was thus limited”.

Oh why can't they just use lithium batteries like they do in my pocket camera, they last miles longer than the usual batteries! ;D
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: SumpMagnet on November 22, 2020, 11:50:27 AM
BTW is it predicted that the costs of charging an EV will soon be noticeable higher then filling a tank with conventional fuel...

That's what they call supply and demand....and for every electric vehicle evangelist, there will be a Civil Servant with a calculator working out how the fuel duty tax will be levied, how the vehicle taxation will need to be re-written, and how...once you can't buy a fossil fuel powered vehicle....they can squeeze you for revenue.

Right now it's easy. Look at the polluter over there....charge him money. He chooses to pollute, so he can pay

But, don't for one minute think the Government can allow car revenues to vanish. They will find a way.

Have already seen an aborted attempt by the Government to massively increase congestion and ULEZ zones in London. Not for 'green' reasons, but simply because TFL can't pay it's bills with so many people working from home. They had to back down, of course, when Boris Johnson realised that a huge slice of voters would now have to pay to go ANYWHERE in there cars, whilst in the same move...removing free travel for pensioners and children. To subsidise a bus network nobody was using.

Makes me wonder if the high cost of electric vehicles is entirely accidental. I am very familiar with high voltage high current motors and brushless speed controllers. One of my other hobbies is RC cars....and the noise issues with IC engines has made a lot of hobbyists swap to brushless. Lithium polymer cells have been common and relatively cheap for over 10 years, and the cost of 150amp speed controllers has dropped massively. The technology is not complex, and the cheap stuff has got steadily better and better. Why then, when these things are scaled up further, has hte same not happened?  Better ask the Chinese....they make all the RC stuff, and do it well!
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Lobo on November 22, 2020, 12:10:44 PM
No one would disagree with what you say SumpMagnet.
At the mo part of the roads revenue stream is due the motorist breaking speeding laws / various  other infringements.
Autopilots are imminent, meaning these incomes will disappear as those laws satisfied. They’ll then have to introduce ‘levies’ to compensate, which in a nut-shell are charges  for basically obeying the law.
Hmm.
It’s a no-win.... no-win situation.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: sye on November 22, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
Pay per mile is on it's way, probably with different rates for EV's and ICE's. Watch this space, I predict some sort of leak next year to judge public opinion.

There is no doubt that we have to change our ways and this is just the start. ICE's and fuel will continue for 100's of years after they cease manufacture. There will be a demand for petrol driven tools of all kinds and these are unlikely to be banned in the near future.

All kinds of energy generation will be required including nuclear. Rolls Royce are delevoping small modular nuclear reactors that are much cheaper to produce and safer than the massive alternatives. They have just been given a bucket load of cash to aid development. https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/nuclear/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

Homes will be the next target. Sweden and Denmark can build homes without any fossil fuel heating, so why can't we? The answer is we can but until now we haven't wanted to. The choice is ours, let's hope we make the right decisions.

There are far too many people using resources. The choice is simple, get rid of 50% of people or consume 50% less resources. It's easilly doable if we have the will.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: ST1100 on November 22, 2020, 01:01:45 PM
They’ll then have to introduce ‘levies’ to compensate, which in a nut-shell are charges  for basically obeying the law.
Basically automated as new vehicles are already "integrated" (see: mandatory eCall) into their surveillance network...  ???
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Bryanj on November 22, 2020, 03:13:31 PM
For quite a few years the DAF's I drive have lane departure warning(nags you via the radio speakers if you cross a line without indicators on),Electronic  Emergency Braking ( brakes for you if you get too close and slams them on if you get VERY close but there are 6 bridges on motorways that the government admit set the system off and I know of at least another 4 they wont admit to) and predictive cruise control that eases off the throttle as you reach the crest of a hill (F*****g annoying when at 44 Tonne, and auto braking if you go over the cruise set speed, what with no clutch pedal (manual box and clutch computer controlled) its difficult staying awake as a steering wheel attendant,

As to efficiency when I started in 77 it was 6mpg at 32 Ton now I average 9.5 mpg at 44 Tonne with damn near zero NOX on the new stuff(but a silencer costing £6,000) and you run Hoss Piss as an additive
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: SumpMagnet on November 22, 2020, 07:41:27 PM
The considered opinion of my eldest boy (he studied robotics and has a particular interest in self drive cars) is that personal car ownership is really going to become a thing of the past within the next generation. The ever increasing cost of car ownership to cover revenue shortfalls in our Government, pollution controls, fake congestion levies, and so on....when you view it with the development of self drive cars and electric vehicles...well.... I can see what he is getting at.

If cars drive themselves, you just rent one when you need it. The car does the rest, and when it's not being used...it can take itself off to a free charging pad and top up it's batteries.

No congestion, as they are all centrally operated, no speeding, no parking issues. Larger mass transit units for peak commuting...and you just click on an app...tell it where you are...where you want to go...and pay for the trip.

Take the expense of a driver out of the system, and you make it a LOT cheaper, it never gets tired and can work all day and all night without a break...like an unlicensed mini cab operator....but not as likely to crash or rob you.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Green1 on November 22, 2020, 08:34:37 PM
Renting a car is all well and good but I have two vans kitted out for work and drive the one that suits my days work best on a given day.
So car share is out of the question. How would a driverless car drive into a feild that doesn't have a postcode or address?

Calling a car or driver on an App is also out of the question for me. Anyone that knows me has seen my flip phone.
You would have a shock if you saw the laptop I'm using its about 15years old not all the keys do what there supposed too and the screen is held up with molegrips.  ;D

 
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2020, 08:55:28 PM
https://youtu.be/x4fdUx6d4QM

 ;D
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 22, 2020, 09:02:32 PM
https://youtu.be/x4fdUx6d4QM

 ;D
😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Green1 on November 22, 2020, 09:31:07 PM
I'm quite capable of doing that without a computer controled car.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: royhall on November 22, 2020, 09:50:11 PM
None of this will happen by 2030 complete bull. This is Britain that can't even build a railway line, last time I looked railways were invented hundreds of years ago but we can't manage it. Design and build nuclear reactors in less than a decade, get real, planning consent will take longer than that. 2040 will be the soonest we can manage it and that's the date given originally after consultation. Just Boris trying to be clever, I will be happy if we get into next year without a disaster with the EU.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: Johnny4428 on November 23, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Yes Bryan, there has been a couple of freights recently with that braking system on Merc units that came to Orkney to the company I drive for. I think the CPC qualification could do a lot better to cover the basics of these new electronic systems instead of some of the p....s that we had to endure. I repeated the exact same module that I had done the previous day just to get hours in last year. The only day I thought was beneficial was the first aid refresher course.
Title: Re: Ten years to go until electric...
Post by: ST1100 on November 23, 2020, 04:14:57 PM
If cars drive themselves, you just rent one when you need it. The car does the rest, and when it's not being used...it can take itself off to a free charging pad and top up it's batteries.
Right... I drive a service van, aprox 1.5 tons of stuff inside...
How should this work in your theory?
I "call" a rental via app, spend over one hour loading all my $h!t into it, get to the site, unload all onto the sidewalk...  :-\
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