Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: alexdecker on November 21, 2023, 04:11:27 PM
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Hey
I am buying this kit soon for my CB550F 1977. For the long bolts, I can choose between dome, full hex, nyloc or toothed flange. Which version would you guys recommend I go with? Which would be the most "correct" version?
https://www.zed-parts.com/product-page/honda-cb500-four-engine-mount-kit
- Alex
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I personally wouldn't buy that kit at all Alex. The long top bolt is not supposed to be threaded at both ends, it's a normal bolt with a head at one end and a nut at the other.
Socket bolts as engine hangers is also a poor idea, cheaper and easier to just buy normal stainless bolts if that's what you like.
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Thanks! It’s the only set I have been able to find that mounts the engine to frame. My own bolts is rather beat up, rusted and half of them not original. Is there any others sets you know of that could be an option?
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Don’t know about the long bolts but I have used a combination of bolts from Kay fast and Middletons. Take care to get matching bolt and nut thread pitch sizes. The markings can be filed or ground off if required and polish up very well
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If it's the only way of sourcing the long mounting studs/bolts the your bike your choice. There are a couple of sets on UK ebay. I'd choose the hex head to look slightly standard.
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You can get all the bolts and nuts from Middletons, and with the correct size heads as well.
I got Middleton to make me the top and bottom long ones back in the 80s but they don't do that anymore unfortunately.
Shame Max isn't a member anymore as those 2 long bolts would have been something he should have been able to make, bottom one especially as it's just a rod threaded both ends, nothing special there.
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Could I perhaps do this set then? Then I would only need to figure out a solution for the long bolts to make it a complete set, right?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/266394764819?hash=item3e065d8613:g:adsAAOSwBRVh3sTX&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0By6bS01FdHCVno0vdg0BcJB9TxUcImfxSwXHyG167zlwZEXi0C6haCGxIDhtuNZP5quonAszdAbRPysYRXAxCoBPvhC5b2eqHgx1e8aNaW82Q1FEhTVQ49%2Bd8OPHZIYkNNTNaFxh2asjNwIr7G5Cgpd6bSB8psYKpGScl4hQWJ3n8gDmwuc3tYFg4Z1XjSKI6HmBkPOtH2IeAQ0Na1BOoeS1dSJevGt87Ex9MfhyjkYhZkHyxvn89s5byMFGOROaq8yL2Cl8N%2BgnaA8RvX3iUA%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR66j3qr_Yg
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Stainless stuff has not the same strength as normal zinc plated high tensile steel fasteners.
Not ideal for engine, shockers, forks or brakes etc.
But probably ok for other light duty cycle parts.
Anyhow for a show pony it probably won't matter.
Stay safe
Skoti
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Stainless stuff has not the same strength as normal zinc plated high tensile steel fasteners.
Not ideal for engine, shockers, forks or brakes etc.
But probably ok for other light duty cycle parts.
Anyhow for a show pony it probably won't matter.
Stay safe
Skoti
Yep, the scrutineers at the Isle of Man TT & Manx Grand Prix/Classic TT check (with a magnet) that engine mounting bolts are not stainless as they have been known to fracture
Doubt it would happen on a road machine though
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Stainless stuff has not the same strength as normal zinc plated high tensile steel fasteners.
Not ideal for engine, shockers, forks or brakes etc.
But probably ok for other light duty cycle parts.
Anyhow for a show pony it probably won't matter.
Stay safe
Skoti
That would be sort of true Skoti IF the SOHC engines used tensile steel bolts, which to my knowledge they don't (and if they do why aren't they marked as tensile bolts, like 8.8). The engine bolts are AFAIK mild steel, seen more than a few with stripped threads, fractured etc which you wouldn't see in tensile steel. Saying that, the various grades of tensile bolts means that some are actually the same tensile strength as good stainless. BSB and MotoGP bikes for instance use a lot of titanium bolts for lightness, it's also stronger generally than stainless and significantly stronger than most steels except for high grade carbon steel, which would be unsuitable for engine bolts due to the water these bolts are exposed too. AFAIK Titanium doesn't stick to a magnet either so why scrutineers would frown on a material that strong is beyond me, it could be more to do with the bike being or using original parts than strength.
I've used either stainless or titanium bolts for my bikes since the late 70s, the cost then was exorbitant but they were also the only bolts to survive rat piss for 40 years, a quick wipe and they were as good as new. The Honda bolts were scrap, even zinc plating has it's limits. I've yet to suffer a failure except once when I tightened down some nyloc nuts onto the ends of the long end bar running through the footrests, being new to stainless I was unaware of galling. When I attempted to remove the nuts they were as solid as if they'd been welded in place, in the end I used a piece of scaffolding tube 6ft long as a lever on a T bar, the force exerted was so powerful the actual bar sheared just behind the nut, the nut never came off even when heat was used to melt the nylon locking part. Middleton made me a replacement FOC and advised using copper grease in future.
I can safely say I have fewer than 10 of the original Honda bolts left on my bike and possibly even less than that figure on my 1300, only specialised bolts are kept as standard, caliper bolts are either stainless or titanium, pad pins titanium, never a failure in all that time and I've raced the 500 and ride the 1300 very hard.
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Hi Alex, I'm ordering all of the m10 and m8 bolts, nuts and spring washers for my engine mountings from Kays (Kayfast) on Ebay, it racks up quite quickly for a few odd sized bolts and you can often get 10 for very little more than you can 5 for example but I done see where I'd ever need the spares.
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The trouble with a lot of these sellers Dom is that they tend to be stamped on the head with markings, which tbh I think look awful and they also tend to have the wrong size heads on the bolts, 6mm ones are fine with 10mm heads but 8mm tend to have 13mm and they should be 12mm and worse 10mm tend to have 17mm heads and they should be 14mm on a Honda, sometimes this means they won’t fit properly due to space constraints. You’ve also got the thread pitch being wrong, mostly on 10mm and above. Honda used metric fine for most of these bolts and the ones you normally get are standard metric
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Ken is right about the head sizes you will only be able to get an open ender on the front bottom engine mount when not using original so an accuratecTorque setting is pretty much impossible.
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Good points by Ken and Ted, I wasn't worried about thread pitch as the engine mounting bolts are all going onto their own nuts but I hadn't considered this with the lower yoke pinch bolts. Are they standard 1.5mm pitch on the m10 bolts?
I might have to have a rethink on the lower engine mounts.
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I think metric fine for M10 is 1.25 pitch Dom.
https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/32908-metric-fine-bolts-setscrews
Middletons sell the correct type, 14mm head.. A hex set is threaded full length, most Honda bolts are not hex set bolts, just the stand hex bolts. Most bolts under 40mm in length tend to be threaded full length so are hex set, same for screws, those are called setscrews.
Middleton bolt are really good quality, the head has no writing on and tends to be highly polished, the end where the thread stops is domed. The only ones I've found that have the writing on the top tend to be ones I think he buys in nowadays and are small M5 bolts which I use for the carbs. I tend to file the markings off and polish the top myself when I get them.
For engine bolts you have a choice, use metric fine but remember to also buy metric fine nuts to match OR buy normal standard bolts and use normal nuts, so long as where it is fitting isn't prethreaded you can choose either.
He also does M8 nuts in 12mm spanner size, M10 in 14mm spanner size.
https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/32930-metric-nuts-full
The M8 bolts do tend to be 13mm spanner size though but TBH that matches the size that Yamaha and Suzuki used, it was Honda that was the odd one out. He does do some really long ones though, great for crankcase bolts etc that can be seen
https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/32906-metric-bolts-setscrews?page=3
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Good points by Ken and Ted, I wasn't worried about thread pitch as the engine mounting bolts are all going onto their own nuts but I hadn't considered this with the lower yoke pinch bolts. Are they standard 1.5mm pitch on the m10 bolts?
I might have to have a rethink on the lower engine mounts.
Just been through all this. IIRC Kay fast and middletons don’t have t some of the bolts in the correct pitch and I ended up getting them from china on ebay( bottom yoke maybe) what I have found is that by grinding off the lettering , polishing up with the brush wheels and bench polisher the heads can quite easily end up with a mirror finish.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354792939265?var=624112326971
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Good points by Ken and Ted, I wasn't worried about thread pitch as the engine mounting bolts are all going onto their own nuts but I hadn't considered this with the lower yoke pinch bolts. Are they standard 1.5mm pitch on the m10 bolts?
I might have to have a rethink on the lower engine mounts.
Just been through all this. IIRC Kay fast and middletons don’t have t some of the bolts in the correct pitch and I ended up getting them from china on ebay( bottom yoke maybe) what I have found is that by grinding off the lettering , polishing up with the brush wheels and bench polisher the heads can quite easily end up with a mirror finish.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354792939265?var=624112326971
The bottom yoke pinch bolt is 10 x 35mm Dave. it's a 1.25 pitch. Exactly what Dave Middletons lists on this page https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/32908-metric-fine-bolts-setscrews the big difference is that Dave Middletons has the correct head size at 14mm, that and the price I suppose, plus it's not a set bolt, meaning unless he's listed it wrong it will only be part threaded like the original, unlike the chinese copies. A 17mm head size in that location looks wrong IMO, they tend to overhang the yoke itself. The original bolt only used a spring washer under the head, I find doing that can scrape the paint off as it spins before it digs in and compresses, I'd advise using a flat washer under the spring as well, if needed increase the length to 40mm as there is usually 5mm of unused thread on most of the Honda bolts. You could trim a couple of mm off if needed.
Forgot to mention, the top yoke pinch bolts on the 500 are easy to find, the ones used on the 550 are not as they are 7mm not 8mm, those are some of the only original bolts left on my bike. Even sourced the 3 small crosshead screws used on the idiot panel in stainless.
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93201-100-350B £2.21 at DSS and good if you are ordering other bits at same time to save postage.
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I've just been thinking, you say the m10 bolts on Hondas are metric fine thread with 14mm heads but the front engine mount bolts, don't they need to be 17mm heads so they are held captive in the cases as they are tightened?
Any idea what pitch the rear shock lower bolts are?
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It's the nuts which are locked by the crankcases Dom, the bolt head is on the outside of the hanger bracket. Same for the lower bolts under the points etc The nuts would also need to be metric fine as well BTW Dom. He doesn't do M10 17mm metric fine nuts though so maybe using standard metric M10 bolts might be a good idea in those locations. Or use these.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285567726891?var=587531291986&hash=item427d29b52b:g:r2wAAOSwzFllL4at&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0Epu6WtmmRstnoacdwXADmYrdZ%2BXmv0%2F72K9kZo%2F1SIdnmDSf4HG5VLzckl0zP5q1C6Bhml%2Bb4tLWOldXViSABnI93xZ8sNOAb0GeQbNBBaqIMMcDxe9UbG1ojZ6XUCgTwQ0pkmmKL8N0VKtFcbVAIrjCERX%2BN%2BuhXTDb%2FkxeJrFC0jLFcyTq0XrcgaW2h%2B2vXStQaCaenHzFa6KlyJxsLdZQVeYMw0zKjtH7ZaU4QukVHFt30bIleEpQ04pdsfi4uWZrMLlBtRX1mSct57q6oo%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9L4jfuAYw
Rear shocks if genuine would be metric fine BUT aftermarket could be any, you'd need to check, my Marzocchis for instance are standard metric thread at 1.5mm.
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Or these. UK seller.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/276159592449?var=578528482110&epid=20030270695&hash=item404c64f801:g:1EEAAOSwhN9lXH6O&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8JM5FVDZoDYC654X6TJd4u256bji1BTGccgAPBi%2FEEeX44Ww5sBzFWQ6uudmuNebHKkvz6e0zrBXP9J4oE%2BZrbLomqwbyksoFEnSPaYmxufKzHNuhT9y9eeMS4Jk%2B82Y3Up2yXX5L39mUewMMOD8%2F8UF%2BBFo53%2FPKGEbRQmBpFXrTdX7hmb23oxtyhR2TZrm5%2F4%2BapeW201WHOzo4bTiRoPdMQTv%2FoXxf6qI5W55ijTBf52bdr9IvVZIdXBmpc90%2BeIpEZmdXO%2BzoZLO3JoxySWL%2Bmkx1Na%2Fex84vOZChSFvIIVfOG9cLufTIWSRwJ0VtQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9L4jfuAYw
17mm spanner size as well.
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Ah good point, I assumed the nuts would be 14mm too which I guess they are. I thought I needed to use 14mm headed bolts in the lower mount positions in order to be able to get a socket on them?
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TBH Dom they look much better with 14mm heads, the socket fitting better is an added bonus, the slots in the crankcase are 17mm though.
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An alternate choice that may give size combination thats useful https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112173022015
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Anyone using this type https://www.accu.co.uk/hexalobular-pan-head-screws/475498-SHP-M6-10-V2-A2 to replace casing just screws ?
You can get more rounded head profile too, they are really nice to work with too instead of a cross head type drive.
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I've used those dimpled titanium bolts a lot on my 1300 and whilst they are fine if the head sits horizontally, like it would at the front engine hangers, when the head is vertical, like the head is flat side up, I found that dimple filled with water, that dried with the heat of the engine and discoloured the bolt head quite quickly, I ended up filling the dimple with paint to stop it.
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Oh b@gg@r, I ordered from Middletons but thought the 14mm headed M10 bolts were metric fine so ordered some nuts on Ebay, turns out they are 1.25mm thread pitch.
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Oh b@gg@r, I ordered from Middletons but thought the 14mm headed M10 bolts were metric fine so ordered some nuts on Ebay, turns out they are 1.25mm thread pitch.
You are not alone Dom in finding confusion with metric threads - it does not help that some sellers do not seem to state thread pitch plus the parts manual might mention diameter & length but naff all about pitch or head size.
Many decades ago I had a simple alloy tool that was a rectagular plate with common british thread sizes marked on it (AF & BSF, BA etc). If you were not sure of a thread size you screwed your bolt in by hand to find the right siize. You could also check nut sizes by sizing a bolt then trying your nut on an identified bolt.
It was a promotional tool at the garage where I worked - it came free with some red tins of fastners by a manufacturer - forget the brand name now something like Tewul ?
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Oh b@gg@r, I ordered from Middletons but thought the 14mm headed M10 bolts were metric fine so ordered some nuts on Ebay, turns out they are 1.25mm thread pitch.
You are not alone Dom in finding confusion with metric threads - it does not help that some sellers do not seem to state thread pitch plus the parts manual might mention diameter & length but naff all about pitch or head size.
Many decades ago I had a simple alloy tool that was a rectagular plate with common british thread sizes marked on it (AF & BSF, BA etc). If you were not sure of a thread size you screwed your bolt in by hand to find the right siize. You could also check nut sizes by sizing a bolt then trying your nut on an identified bolt.
It was a promotional tool at the garage where I worked - it came free with some red tins of fastners by a manufacturer - forget the brand name now something like Tewul ?
Yes Ted, confusing but thankfully it was only four nuts that I ordered in m10 x 1mm on Ebay. Hopefully I'll get the lower half of the engine in the frame soon then when Bryan has finished reporting my barrels I can get it all together🤞
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Same here. Took me three purchasing attempts until I got the thread correct for the M12 foot peg engine mount nuts. I have got better at measuring an existing bolt with a ruler and counting along 10 threads to see if it s 1.0 , 1.25 or 1.5cm etc. unless you specifically select a fine thread all the stainless bolts sellers use the standard coarse thread but there are plenty of tables which list all the metric thread sizes on google so you can home in on whether it’s what you need. It’sbeen satisfying to get to know this stuff - this week I was looking for a helicoil set for the carb drain screw m6 x0.8 fine - that was not easy to find. Problem if you get it wrong the postage cost for a small delivery from middletons is prohibitive so I think that’s why I resorted to getting the odd bolt from china on eBay.
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I can't believe you guys don't buy a thread pitch gauge. They are so cheap and solve the problem of ordering the wrong sizes.
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Does it help with internal threads on nuts or bores ? But fair enough comment -got close to buying one once but then found I could count and measure threads accurately.
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I’ve found this simple gauge handy. Picked it up at a show a few years back(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231201/8b3b72eb0354e9b3276590610822731a.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Where would the fun be in that😄 But seriously, yes I should have invested in a thread gauge years ago as well as a tap and die set.
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My tap and die set came with a thread gauge and it was inexpensive. If I was cutting a lot of threads I would buy something better but for cleaning threads the sets I have are ideal.