Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 29, 2016, 05:36:30 PM
It became harder to start over the course of a few days, but now refuses to catch at all.
I have done the following:
-checked valve clearances
-checked static timing
-cleaned and gapped the points
-replaced condensers and spark plugs - spark seems ok
-checked function of coils - all values fall within normal ranges
-replaced battery
-checked frame grounding points for corrosion, found none.
-sprayed easy start directly into the intakes, no go.
What could it be? I'm all out of ideas.
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Post by: Johnwebley on May 29, 2016, 06:08:58 PM
make sure you have plenty of fresh petrol,
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 29, 2016, 06:10:11 PM
if you have sparks,and compression,Not sure on the compression, trying to borrow a gauge to test. Fuel is fresh.
make sure you have plenty of fresh petrol,
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Post by: Johnwebley on May 29, 2016, 07:12:55 PM
if you have sparks,and compression,Not sure on the compression, trying to borrow a gauge to test. Fuel is fresh.
make sure you have plenty of fresh petrol,
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put the petrol tap on reserve,remove a carb bowl drain screw.make sure you have a flow
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 29, 2016, 08:06:48 PM
Yep, definitely flowing.if you have sparks,and compression,Not sure on the compression, trying to borrow a gauge to test. Fuel is fresh.
make sure you have plenty of fresh petrol,
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put the petrol tap on reserve,remove a carb bowl drain screw.make sure you have a flow
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Post by: petermigreen on May 29, 2016, 08:23:35 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 29, 2016, 10:33:06 PM
Blocked air flow/filter?New K&N filters, only 200 miles on the bike since it was dyno tuned to suit them and the new exhaust.
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Post by: Trigger on May 30, 2016, 08:26:32 AM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 30, 2016, 08:28:14 AM
If it will not fire on easy start, I would assume (without seeing the bike) that it must be a firing problem. When I come across this in the workshop, I would try to bump start the bike and if it would not fire on easy start with a bump I would always be back to the drawing board while a lot of head scratching went on.Will try a bump start then!
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Post by: Trigger on May 30, 2016, 08:33:28 AM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 30, 2016, 08:36:38 AM
It is very hard to comment when a bike is not in front of you.I know. If I had a van I'd bring it by.
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Post by: K2-K6 on May 30, 2016, 09:24:05 AM
Post by: Seabeowner on May 30, 2016, 12:34:02 PM
Post by: Chris400F on May 30, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 30, 2016, 01:07:30 PM
After you've tried starting it are the plugs wet (possibly implying unburnt fuel, no spark) or dry (possibly implying no fuel)?The plugs are wet after starting, but seem to have spark?
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Post by: K2-K6 on May 30, 2016, 01:24:30 PM
If you've got a timing strobe that takes a pulse from ht leads, it will confirm if you are generating sparks.
Assuming if you check and set the timing you are seeing electrical switching across each contact.
Post by: Chris400F on May 30, 2016, 01:27:59 PM
Ruling out as many sources of a poor connection as possible sounds a good plan.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 30, 2016, 01:35:16 PM
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Post by: Woodside on May 30, 2016, 02:18:41 PM
Plugs out looked like a spark but was abit wayward not a nice solid jump across gap....I had flooded it previously. ...asked my mate who is a bike mechanic he said ngk a pretty much fubar'd after a flooding and are good for nothing....He was right new plugs it was good as gold again
Post by: deltarider on May 30, 2016, 04:51:13 PM
Quote
after a blissful week of riding, my bike no longer starts,Short rides only?
Quote
I have done the following:Correct order would be:
-checked valve clearances
-checked static timing
-cleaned and gapped the points
-cleaned and gapped the points
-checked static timing
(Gapping the points will change the timing.)
Quote
-replaced condensers and spark plugs - spark seems okWhat does 'seems ok' mean?
BTW, after replacing condensors it's always wise to check if the connectors are not too close to the plates and as a result are touching them on and of and so making ground intermittently.
After checks, do start attempt with fresh plugs, charged battery and known good plugcaps.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 30, 2016, 06:04:33 PM
Quoteafter a blissful week of riding, my bike no longer starts,Short rides only?
40 minutes to and from work
Quote
I have done the following:
-checked valve clearances
-checked static timing
-cleaned and gapped the points
Correct order would be:
-cleaned and gapped the points
-checked static timing
(Gapping the points will change the timing.)
Gapped the points before doing the timing - didn't list them chronologically.
Quote
-replaced condensers and spark plugs - spark seems ok
What does 'seems ok' mean?
I put the spark plug up against an engine bolt and observed the spark - I have no quantitative measurement here, so I see a spark, and that's all I can say. Sometimes it seems a bit spindley, but how can I quantify it?
[/quote] BTW, after replacing condensors it's always wise to check if the connectors are not too close to the plates and as a result are touching them on and of and so making ground intermittently. [/quote]
I did notice this, so adjusted accordingly.
[/quote] After checks, do start attempt with fresh plugs, charged battery and known good plugcaps.
[/quote]
How can I verify plug caps are good? my HT leads are new, but I had to cut them to size and wire in the caps myself, which I haven't done before. I followed the directions supplied, and they did work for a week.... ?
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Post by: Johnwebley on May 30, 2016, 06:26:33 PM
check the resistance,
most resister caps are 5K ohms,but can increase to over 10K as they start to fail
another item to test,you can also check the HT circuit,by using the probes on each set of plug leads,
check 1-4 together,and 2-3 together,
can't remember the actual value when I did mine,but both were the same,and about 44K
Post by: deltarider on May 30, 2016, 08:01:53 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on May 30, 2016, 09:33:32 PM
Just a very wild stab in the dark, many years ago a friend got me to look at his 250 Yamaha which he'd driven home but it then would not start, I didn't get it to go and everything checked out so we were at a loss as to the problem, somebody else suggested to change the fuel and it went. The reason was really odd though, he'd topped up the tank on the way home in readiness for use of work commuting but he'd put something like 3ltrs of diesel in it as the tank was quite full anyway, it started when hot but there was no way it would fire when cold.
He had a receipt that confirmed the diesel was what he bought when we checked.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 31, 2016, 07:04:10 AM
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Post by: deltarider on May 31, 2016, 07:29:56 AM
Quote
The caps I have came with the Dyna coils and HT leads I bought - they're just clips on the end of the leads, with a silicon boot that slides over top, no resistor or anything that I can see. Is this an issue?Read the instructions your Dyna coils (what colour?) and HT leads came with and when in doubt contact Dyna. Silicon boots are fine (I run them myself (yellow leads and red boots)), but if there's no resistor in boots and leads (easy to measure) my advice would be to run (R)esistor plugs only. Without any resistor anywhere I don't know if coils will live long. Here's my experience. I bought the green 3 Ω Dyna coils decades ago. First I ran them without any resistors (nor in boots nor in plugs). One coil died after 30.000 kms and I decided it maybe was a better idea to run (R)esistor plugs. But first see what Dyna instructs. I'm not saying this is the cause of your problem, but it wouldn't harm to have this sorted out once and for all.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 31, 2016, 01:26:48 PM
Called up Dyna today and they recommend running their leads without resistor plugs. They did say that a common issue that results in the same kind of symptoms as my bike is having is lower voltage to the coils due to loom issues, so defo gotta try running a direct feed to the coils.QuoteThe caps I have came with the Dyna coils and HT leads I bought - they're just clips on the end of the leads, with a silicon boot that slides over top, no resistor or anything that I can see. Is this an issue?Read the instructions your Dyna coils (what colour?) and HT leads came with and when in doubt contact Dyna. Silicon boots are fine (I run them myself (yellow leads and red boots)), but if there's no resistor in boots and leads (easy to measure) my advice would be to run (R)esistor plugs only. Without any resistor anywhere I don't know if coils will live long. Here's my experience. I bought the green 3 Ω Dyna coils decades ago. First I ran them without any resistors (nor in boots nor in plugs). One coil died after 30.000 kms and I decided it maybe was a better idea to run (R)esistor plugs. But first see what Dyna instructs. I'm not saying this is the cause of your problem, but it wouldn't harm to have this sorted out once and for all.
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Post by: paul G on May 31, 2016, 01:45:24 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 31, 2016, 02:33:40 PM
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Post by: deltarider on May 31, 2016, 03:23:45 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on May 31, 2016, 04:30:09 PM
Hold it. If your coils happen to be the (green?) 3 Ω coils like mine the last thing you need is a relay. This whole relay hype crossed the Atlantic I'm afraid and I doubt there will be any advantages to speak of.I'm running the 5 ohm coils.
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Post by: paul G on May 31, 2016, 04:30:32 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 02, 2016, 10:05:37 AM
Something has definitely gone wrong.
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Post by: deltarider on June 02, 2016, 11:35:10 AM
Quote
Well, think I found my issue. Borrowed a compression tester and it's down to 110 psi on each cylinder, and should be 170 psi, correct?
Don't panic. I myself never managed to succesfully do a compression test on my CB500. Outcome was always way too low. Moreover, not every compression tester is suitable for the job. Hence my oldfashioned way of testing. Thumb (or finger) over sparkplughole, let somebody kick the engine. Thumb blown of: compression is fine. Thumb still on the hole: compression not good.
Post by: tom400f on June 02, 2016, 12:06:45 PM
1. you were riding it regularly a decent distance
2. one day you walked up to the bike cold and it wouldn't start?
3. any spluttering/it tried to fire but couldn't get going? Or completely dead not even a cough?
4. it was a sudden and unexpected onset?
5. Re compression - does it "feel ok" on the kickstart (so empirical like deltarider is saying)? Unlikely that all cyls would suddenly report low values...
Post by: hairygit on June 02, 2016, 12:32:38 PM
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 02, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
Read through this thread a couple of times... can we recap/confirm a bit of history:
1. you were riding it regularly a decent distance
Yes
[/quote]
2. one day you walked up to the bike cold and it wouldn't start? [/quote]
It became a bit harder to start over a couple of days, then no start at all.
[/quote]
3. any spluttering/it tried to fire but couldn't get going? Or completely dead not even a cough? [/quote]
It does cough occasionally, and yesterday night randomly started up once but died as soon as I let the revs drop. Wouldn't start again.
[/quote]
4. it was a sudden and unexpected onset? [/quote]
Harder to start over the course of 3-4 days.
[/quote]
5. Re compression - does it "feel ok" on the kickstart (so empirical like deltarider is saying)? Unlikely that all cyls would suddenly report low values...
[/quote]
Feels fine via kicking it over - I haven't noticed a change.
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 02, 2016, 12:51:28 PM
Did you hold the throttle wide open with choke off doing the compression test?Not WOT... will re - test.
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Post by: hairygit on June 02, 2016, 12:53:24 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 02, 2016, 04:55:11 PM
Throttle needs to be wide open, needs air to go into the cylinders in order to compress!With no choke and WOT I get 130 - 135 psi per cylinder.
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 02, 2016, 04:55:38 PM
Try draining the float bowls, unlikely but possible they could have water in them. When I was syncing carbs I'd have a small bottle full of petrol suspended from the bars, the petrol was a known quantity then not something that may have been contaminated in the tank. I used a 2 stroke tank off a small Yamaha as they have spouts on the bottom so easy to get a fuel line on them.Drained them yesterday... Unfortunately no luck.
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 06:19:59 AM
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Post by: hairygit on June 07, 2016, 06:40:57 AM
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Post by: Trigger on June 07, 2016, 07:26:28 AM
Well, it's running again. I was wracking my brain for anything I'd done differently before it all went wrong and realised I'd topped off the tank with premium instead of my usual regular petrol. In an off chance I got a jerry can of regular, drained the carbs and hooked up an auxiliary tank, and it fired second kick. Started 5 more times after that, so hopefully problem solved. Still doesn't make any sense though.
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That is strange because it should of fired on easy start in that case.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 08:12:10 AM
Well, it won't start again this morning. If someone offered me a damn moped in trade I'd have to consider it at this point. I'm done.Well, it's running again. I was wracking my brain for anything I'd done differently before it all went wrong and realised I'd topped off the tank with premium instead of my usual regular petrol. In an off chance I got a jerry can of regular, drained the carbs and hooked up an auxiliary tank, and it fired second kick. Started 5 more times after that, so hopefully problem solved. Still doesn't make any sense though.
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That is strange because it should of fired on easy start in that case.
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Post by: royhall on June 07, 2016, 08:56:10 AM
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Post by: tom400f on June 07, 2016, 08:58:26 AM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
What did it run like when it started?Ran great, even settled into a nice idle. Revved up nice too.
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 09:56:37 AM
So, if it is related to fuel delivery yet affects all cylinders, do you have some sort of air lock in the fuel tap or thereabouts?Might be worth looking at.
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Post by: Chris400F on June 07, 2016, 10:33:27 AM
Needs to be something to let air in or you will get a vacuum in the tank.
Post by: deltarider on June 07, 2016, 12:26:04 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 12:26:58 PM
And inline fuel filters are known to cause fuelflow problems too.I'm just running the stock filter in the tank.
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Post by: K2-K6 on June 07, 2016, 01:52:51 PM
Well, it's running again. I was wracking my brain for anything I'd done differently before it all went wrong and realised I'd topped off the tank with premium instead of my usual regular petrol. In an off chance I got a jerry can of regular, drained the carbs and hooked up an auxiliary tank, and it fired second kick. Started 5 more times after that, so hopefully problem solved. Still doesn't make any sense though.
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That is strange because it should of fired on easy start in that case.
I had a car recently that I'd inadvertently flooded (at the point of not running I hadn't got to that diagnosis) but trying to get it to go I took off the mass airflow meter and sprayed easy start past the throttle into the plenum and it didn't even cough any combustion in the cylinders but did ignite the easy which blew back out past the throttle, the motor seemed too fuelled heavily to even do anything. Eventually I realised it was too rich, pulled the fuel pump fuse and cranked it till it went, NGK plugs too and still in there ok 3000mls later.
Post by: K2-K6 on June 07, 2016, 02:03:25 PM
If so then it would still suggest the tank has something is it that won't fire properly. So you may have the reasons in front of you.
If you've just filled the float bowls with an alternate supply and it ran ok then it's not the jets in the carbs.
The float bowls when filled will easily run these bikes for about 3to5 miles so it will do as you've found and start\run for a fair time on that supply. When you put the task supply back on it will mix the two again and possibly stop it from igniting again.
I'd remove all the fuel from the bike and put about 5 litres of known good supply in there to see if this checks out.
Post by: deltarider on June 07, 2016, 03:18:21 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 04:12:52 PM
MrT, are you saying that when it was just recently running It was supplied from your alternative source? and is it now back onto it's own original tank supply?Unfortunately this is what I did yesterday. Drained the tank, reattached to the bike, refilled with the same fuel that was in the aux tank when it ran, started the bike again, and all was well. Then this morning not even a cough.
If so then it would still suggest the tank has something is it that won't fire properly. So you may have the reasons in front of you.
If you've just filled the float bowls with an alternate supply and it ran ok then it's not the jets in the carbs.
The float bowls when filled will easily run these bikes for about 3to5 miles so it will do as you've found and start\run for a fair time on that supply. When you put the task supply back on it will mix the two again and possibly stop it from igniting again.
I'd remove all the fuel from the bike and put about 5 litres of known good supply in there to see if this checks out.
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Post by: gordo on June 07, 2016, 04:20:05 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 07, 2016, 04:24:56 PM
Have you pulled the fuel filter from the tank and checked it.I haven't - should have done as due course but have assumed it would be clean as I emptied the tank via the petcock and flow was fine.
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Post by: Trigger on June 08, 2016, 07:46:07 PM
Post by: paulbaker1954 on June 10, 2016, 11:31:10 PM
Sound like you may have a vacuum leak
Post by: Rob.b (Rob Birkett - RIP) on June 11, 2016, 10:02:57 AM
I want to suggest that it is not feel related and the reason I think this is because the bike began to be hard to start and then wouldn't start at all. Since then you have done lots of checks and fixes including putting fresh petrol in it even easy start still nothing. Then one day with a new fuel supply made it start and it ran fine then it stopped and wouldn't start again just doesn't sound sensible that it's fuel given that we checked everything in the fuel line.
I am going to go back to possible electrical problems; you say it sparks. Is it a nice big fat blue spark or a whmpy little orange one, also is it sparking reliably does it always spark when it should, has the timing had chance to slip and then get in the right orientation and then slip off again is the ignition switch working properly is the Killswitch working properly all of the taking the fuel tank on and off are you disturbing a wire aound the coils?
Two nights ago starting at 11pn I set off from home on my Cb500 and did 270miles down into mid Wales then home up the A49 it was brilliant, anyway I started to think about your bike and I began to think about electric issues because it's intermittent and the fuel system has had a very thorough going over.
Hope this is of some help. I'm desperate to find out what's going on with your bike.
Rob
Post by: MCTID on June 11, 2016, 01:02:37 PM
I had a Lambretta years ago (I know but I was only 16) that ran OK for a while then cut out - after checking there was fuel in the tank (under the seat) it ran OK again for a while. Same again.........eventually discovered that it was my Over trousers which I kept stored under the seat which was blocking the vent hole.
Just try it.
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 11, 2016, 08:16:08 PM
Have you synced carbs recently. I synced mine a while ago, finished job and she wouldn't start because stupidly I had left the vacuum connection screws on the bench. Put them back in and problem solvedI had hopes this would be the issue as I headed to the shed this morning, but unfortunately not. All the vacuum connections were nice and tight.
Sound like you may have a vacuum leak
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 11, 2016, 08:42:26 PM
I reckon Chris400F has the solution........try running it without the Fuel Cap to check whether the vent hole is blocked or not. You didn't say whether you had checked it but when you ran it from a Auxiliary Fuel tank it was OK.I just went out and checked - no difference with the cap on or off.
I had a Lambretta years ago (I know but I was only 16) that ran OK for a while then cut out - after checking there was fuel in the tank (under the seat) it ran OK again for a while. Same again.........eventually discovered that it was my Over trousers which I kept stored under the seat which was blocking the vent hole.
Just try it.
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Post by: tom400f on June 11, 2016, 08:59:50 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 11, 2016, 09:19:33 PM
How about those of us in range all meet up at Mr T's for a group effort? I'm in.I'd be very glad for the help!
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Post by: K2-K6 on June 12, 2016, 12:39:26 PM
Got a few tools like decent compression tester, meter, strobe etc that may assist with a more comprehensive look through the bike.
Let us know a time, etc to see if I can match up.
Post by: Seabeowner on June 12, 2016, 05:14:39 PM
Cheers
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 12, 2016, 05:41:18 PM
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Post by: tom400f on June 13, 2016, 10:33:20 AM
Sat/Sun, possibly. Might be dry then... :\
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
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Post by: mike the bike on June 15, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 12:37:23 PM
I've got Dyna coils and ignition on mine. Perhaps you've got the wrong resistance.5 ohm?
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
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Post by: hairygit on June 15, 2016, 01:24:34 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 01:29:30 PM
Glad you got it sorted, but problems like yours are EXACTLY why I would NOT even consider adding electrical complications to an old bike. Points and condensors win every time in my experience!Now I've got to send the bits off to Dyna and wait for a warranty decision... more time off the bike.
Might just sell the ignition unit - in retrospect, points seem fine to me!
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Post by: hairygit on June 15, 2016, 01:32:30 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 01:36:25 PM
My point exactly, if points mess about, you can reset or replace them at the roadside, and carry on the journey. Do you still have the atu and points plate and original coils? At least that would get you back on the road to enjoy the summer.Points I've got, but the original coils were dead too, so I'll have to wait unless I can borrow a set or find a cheap set somewhere.
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Post by: Rob.b (Rob Birkett - RIP) on June 15, 2016, 01:40:06 PM
Rob
Post by: royhall on June 15, 2016, 02:51:48 PM
Post by: tom400f on June 15, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
Glad it's nothing really serious :)
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 02:57:49 PM
Great it's sorted. I was going to suggest Sunday but, as with most support problems, if you leave it the protagonist usually sorts it outMe too!
Glad it's nothing really serious :)
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Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 02:58:04 PM
Glad you found the problem, at least you know where your going with it. If you check on the web, Dyna systems are getting slated all over for being unreliable. Either points or Boyer Bransden for me.I'm thinking points for now.
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Post by: deltarider on June 15, 2016, 03:56:45 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 04:01:26 PM
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Post by: deltarider on June 15, 2016, 04:07:49 PM
Doesn't specify the ΩΩ.
Post by: ginger_jim on June 15, 2016, 04:29:19 PM
Post by: ginger_jim on June 15, 2016, 04:35:37 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 04:55:20 PM
NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO........don't buy those they are absolute rubbish. I bought a pair and had real bad problems which made me think the cabs were out. Turned out to be a crap spark. I had a set of coils kicking around the shed off a ZZR Kawasaki. Stuck those on and the bike fired up like a trooper and has been spot on ever since. They were TEC KP02's which are 3.8ohms if I remember correctly.Haha haha got it. :)
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Post by: royhall on June 15, 2016, 04:59:23 PM
Post by: JustcallmeMrT on June 15, 2016, 05:15:16 PM
Be careful with the DSS pattern coils, the ohms are not the same as originals. Sorry cant remember what the readings were, but it was off by enough for me to return them. Got it written down somewhere, plus Ash will know as he talked me through it.So where did you end up going for a 5 ohm coil and what was cost like?
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Post by: royhall on June 15, 2016, 05:30:36 PM
Post by: royhall on June 15, 2016, 05:42:02 PM
Post by: ginger_jim on June 15, 2016, 05:52:10 PM
I'm quite happy to be corrected however ;D Loads of threads kicking around about people having panic attacks regarding which coils to use though so its a common issue.
Post by: Seabeowner on June 25, 2016, 10:16:19 AM
As my 500 has become increasingly difficult to start over the last few months, I thought to get on with something useful yesterday I would investigate. It is fitted with Piranha ignition (remember them) that I originally bought for a Guzzi and then transferred to a Z650.
The spark looked OK, but when measuring the voltage at the coils it was nearly a volt down. A quick root around the shed revealed an old relay bought for some extra lights fitted to something years ago. Wiring this to switch power direct to the ignition system has made all the difference. Starts on the button.