Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: Sprocket on August 16, 2018, 08:26:15 AM

Title: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 16, 2018, 08:26:15 AM
Hi all. I think I've gone a bit mad and bought a project. No idea how much this is going to cost, or how long it's going to take. But I'm not worried, I'll plod on and it'll be done when it is.

I've decided the first step is to sit and look at it a lot. Then make some lists of stuff that looks like it works, and stuff that needs doing. I imagine I'll be stripping it and getting the frame done before any serious other work, but who knows!

Any advice welcome!

Shameful pic first.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: paul G on August 16, 2018, 08:29:04 AM
 When the reality sinks in ;) ;)
It's a good starting point and loads of 440/4 owners/help on here ;D good luck Sprocket
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mickwinf on August 16, 2018, 08:30:50 AM
welcome and good luck with your project
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 16, 2018, 08:51:07 AM
Hi and welcome. It's not in boxes so it's not too bad. Have fun  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: SumpMagnet on August 16, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
I think you have the right approach. No time limits, no deadlines, and no rush. If something needs to soak in WD40 for a day or two, so be it. I am trying to do the same with my project ....

It looks pretty much all there, and these little beasties look tidy when done. Just think shiny paint and glittering chrome and dive in😁
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: royhall on August 16, 2018, 02:27:04 PM
Welcome to the forum. You picked a good bike for a first project. Loads of advice on here and plenty of spare parts still available. It's a personal thing but I always start with the engine as it's the biggest and dearest lump out of the way. The rest is just bolting things off and on. Any way you do it have fun.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 16, 2018, 02:49:58 PM
Thanks very much! I admit I've been lurking for ages on a number of forums and it's no accident I picked a project that had some degree of a chance of success. Was basically between this and an NC30 really. And I dare say when this one's done I might look for the other!

I think I'm gravitating towards the engine first, as suggested. It's pretty daunting but I like the idea of doing as much as I can myself. I've a local machine shop in mind for anything I'm totally stuck with.

First things I've purchased are a set of JIS screwdrivers and a massive tub of Swarfega!  :)
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Orcade-Ian on August 16, 2018, 04:00:25 PM
Welcome to the mad world of all things SOHC (and others)
Looks like a good basis to start from.  As others have said, lots of help and advice on here so just take your time, everything will come apart eventually so don’t rush.  Depends what you want to achieve with the final finish but most parts can be brought back to useable with a bit of effort.
Definitely worth reading Nurse Julie’s clinical notes on here to guide you through the process on the engine.  Most of us take the exhaust, carbs, head and barrel off while still in the frame to make it lighter.  It also provides you with an engine stand for loosening stuff like clutch, gear change mech and generator without it sliding all over the place.
Don’t be afraid to ask for help,
Ian
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 20, 2018, 09:09:18 AM
So after thinking about it for a while on Friday evening, I tentatively removed an indicator mount from the rear. Full of filler.  :( So I didn't like the idea of what the frame might be like. Over the weekend I've gently prodded it with a wire wheel and found some reasonable looking metal so I do feel a little better!

Took some other bits off to examine too. One stud has snapped outside of the head and I think it was blowing badly hence there's a pretty deep gungy leak down the front of the engine.

Think the pipes are all genuine but I fear they're too far gone, two of the headers have a really thick crust of rusty nonsense over the chrome. Might be able to at least reshape the crust into something that might shove back in, let's see...

Front and rear 'chrome' mudguards are both covered in underseal underneath (the rear is fibreglassed too, as well as painted over on the surface!)

So the decision has been made, I'll strip the frame down, get it powder coated and use that as the starting point.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: paul G on August 20, 2018, 09:23:01 AM
Best way to move forward Sprocket, strip clean and asses  ;) :) that way you know what you are up against.
On the engine look at Julie's project very comprehensive and loads of help on here.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on August 20, 2018, 10:44:49 AM
Welcome to the forum Sprocket.
I agree with Roy and Paul, strip it down and see what you've got before spending big money. Rebuild the engine first and when you know that's done send the chrome off for replating closely followed by the paint (I and others on here can recommend Menno Dek in Germany, ace painter with decals supplied by Piki (both are forum members on here)).
Julie's thread on the engine rebuild is an inspiration. Julie also sells the oil pump O rings, a real must when rebuilding the motor.
You are lucky with the 400/4, lots of bits available both OEM and pattern.
Best of luck and keep us posted with plenty of photos. Lots of advice freely given, just ask.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 24, 2018, 11:13:37 AM
Ok, so having got most of the bits away I can see what I'm dealing with now.

Plan is:
Do a compression test while the engine is in the frame, see how fit it is or isn't
Strip remaining stuff away, get frame blasted, welded if necessary then powder coated
Put existing stuff back on after a clean and refresh
If engine needs a rebuild do that, if it will run put back in

... Ride the bloody thing ...

Go through as necessary making each and everything shiny and right

This way, I won't have to stop and completely strip it all apart again if I do decide to make it concours.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 28, 2018, 08:24:55 AM
Ok, so guess which part has got me stumped...

After this pic:

Help!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: paul G on August 28, 2018, 08:30:08 AM
Heat and lots of it. ;) ;) ;D
I was lucky and got the toolmaker at work to drill it out for me ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mickwinf on August 28, 2018, 05:01:10 PM
best way to remove stand without damage is to saw through the retaining tube on both sides between the end of the stand and the mounting brackets, once off it is easier to apply force/ heat/ wd40/more force. Can be a long job but stands are hard to find so worth it.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mickwinf on August 28, 2018, 05:03:00 PM
oops just re-read your post and thats what you did! good luck!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 03, 2018, 08:57:24 AM
So, update time.

Stand pin removal succeeded after sawing two slots longitudinally inside. Small strip removed, proper walloped it a bit then crushed the sticky out end in a vice.
[attach=1]
Pic because great victory.
[attach=2]
So I assembled all the bits I want to be blasted and powder coated black. Put some bolts in the threads, added threaded bar with large washers through the head tube to protect the bearing and also the swingarm, as the bushes look pretty good.
[attach=3][attach=4]

So with that lot currently in the van, I'll be turning my attention to the contents of the sump...
[attach=5]
Which looks to be a "stopper comp, PV" 24660-377-000. And a bit of follower, perhaps?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on September 03, 2018, 09:28:10 AM
I just love seeing what goodies are in sumps. When Trig strips customers engines, I get all excited playing a game to see what bits I can identify before Trig finds where the bits came from 😀😀😀
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: SumpMagnet on September 03, 2018, 12:33:33 PM
Wow....that''s some chunky sump debris!

I will be playing that game over hte next few days. and I can't wait.

Got to ask, though, are ALL the stand pivots that nasty to remove? I suppose the wear points on the pivot being internal make for fun. I am used to simple pivots with a bolt through....so I have never had to do this. That and spending more time and effort putting stands BACK on bikes that came with them missing after dodgy 4-1 fitments saw them removed in the 80's.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 03, 2018, 01:13:11 PM
I have experience on this one, and a particularly stubborn C70 from the same era. Both were victims of extreme swearing.

Interestingly, I took the footrest rubbers off and one of them was completely stuck due to corrosion of the peg beneath. Had to squeeze it out with the vice in the end!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 06, 2018, 10:13:21 AM
Current status of frame: Nude. In remarkably good nick though, considering the first investigation I made of the indicator bracket that was full of filler!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on October 08, 2018, 03:28:34 PM
Update.
[attach=2]
The bike is the correct way up now! Have fitted the swinger, new set of Hagon shocks, centre and side stands (everyone knows the 5p method here, right?)
[attach=1]
... and have assembled both sets of pegs.

In putting it the right way up, I couldn't help but notice the lock on the head tube. I originally planned to just leave this alone but before I fit the rest of it I may as well just put a new one in.
[attach=3][attach=4]
Just awaiting arrival from DSS, then I can do this little lot.
[attach=5]
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: petermigreen on October 08, 2018, 04:58:12 PM
Good progress, it's a great part of the restoration when you're putting it back together.
centre and side stands (everyone knows the 5p method here, right?)
I just use one of these

[attach=1]

Peter
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Spenny62 on October 09, 2018, 03:31:54 PM
I've always been the one in class that asks the stupid question that nobody dares to ask even though they don't know the answer either. So........ What is the 5p method?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on October 09, 2018, 03:49:43 PM
What is the 5p method?
If you don't have one of these:
(http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16827.0;attach=36215;image)
bend the spring and insert 5p pieces along both sides as long as you can (and wearing eye protection! as in this pic:
(http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16827.0;attach=36195;image)
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on November 21, 2018, 08:53:29 AM
So as of last evening, this is where I'm up to. It actually rolls! I still need to do some refurb on the wheels but my primary plan is to make it an actual motorcycle first then work my way through and pretty things up.
Dynasurf in Sandbach did my fork rechroming and were pretty good. Finish is very smooth. They charged £25 to chrome and polish the fork caps which was a little more than I was expecting.

And of all the stupid things I could possibly do, happily rolling it off the main stand without an exhaust attached has resulted in some extreme verbal flagellation and readjustment of the once pristine powder coat on the stand and the swinger.  :-[ Nail polish will hopefully fix.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mike the bike on November 22, 2018, 09:19:27 AM
Nice to see another 400four coming back to life.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on November 22, 2018, 11:48:04 AM
Always a feel good moment when you have a rolling chassis. Keep up the good work and post photos of progress 👍.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 22, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
Great progress, just bolt everything back on now and you're away  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: paul G on November 22, 2018, 12:17:18 PM
C :)omming along keep up the good work
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on November 28, 2018, 09:17:38 AM
Not a massive update, but I've had the front wheel off, painted the spokes individually with Chrome paint, and refurbished the disc. Also put the correct grub screw in the speedo drive cable hole, and put a new pinch bolt in the rear brake lever.

Next task is the abhorrence that is the brake caliper. There was a ton of gungy brake fluid all round the pad, to the extent I couldn't pull the pad out. Had to fill up the reservoir and attach the lever to the bar, and pump it for about 10 mins to get it to push it out. The piston has got loads of dents and rusty spots but I think the caliper might be salvageable.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 28, 2018, 10:04:16 AM
Good progress.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Bryanj on November 28, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Caliper is always fine BUT warm the body to uncomfortable temp before trying to undo the bleed nipple and clean the seal groove out scrupulously clean. Stainless Piston and seal kit about £30 on ebay and you only have 1 neck!!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on December 12, 2018, 09:01:38 AM
So I'm up to the point where I want to put my replacement (Japanese sourced used and very good condition) loom on to the frame. And now I'm noticing all kinds of horrendous bodges, among the general clean and tidying.

The fuse box has no lid and has been chock blocked. I was about to use the connector from the rectifier when I thought it would be far, far less bother to just get a replacement.

The ignition switch works with the one extremely worn key, but as you can see it's not in great nick. After disassembly and reassembly it's much better, but I can still take the key out when it's in the 'ON' position. Anyone know what's up with that?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Bryanj on December 12, 2018, 09:19:06 AM
Ignition switches that have been used a lot get like that i'm afraid and if you fit new then the seat lock has a differentbkey.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 12, 2018, 09:51:08 AM
I have a used 400/4 Ignition switch with non-original key that I was going to list on eBay. Would sell on here for £15 plus post if you or anyone else is interested. That's what I paid for it ages ago.
Would need to check it out electrically 1st though as been off the bike for yonks.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on December 12, 2018, 10:02:42 AM
Thanks for the offer, but I've found a NOS key in the states for the one I have here. I'm hoping it's a worn key that's causing the issue where it can come out while the bike is 'on' but I'm really keen to retain as much as I possibly can from the pile of parts bike!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on December 12, 2018, 10:46:55 AM
Ash, if you have no takers I would like the ignition switch please. I have a pattern one on my 400/4 and it looks like it so an original Honda item would be great 👍.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 12, 2018, 11:09:47 AM
Ash, if you have no takers I would like the ignition switch please. I have a pattern one on my 400/4 and it looks like it so an original Honda item would be great 👍.

Tim (Rozabikes PM'ed me) a little while  you sent message about having itm so I really have to let him have 1st dibs on it. I also have one here to fix for Jeremy (Harold400) so if you need me to fix yours I could take a look at yours too.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on December 12, 2018, 09:55:56 PM
No problem Ash. My pattern one is fine, I just wanted an original item but no hardship, Tim probably needs it more than I do.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on December 13, 2018, 03:27:59 PM
So, the issue with being able to remove the key while the ignition is 'on', is down to the key being worn. I got my replacement in the post today and it operates exactly as it should.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on December 13, 2018, 04:01:28 PM
So do you think that the key is designed to be “sacrificial” to wear before the lock?

Very forward thinking of the Honda engineers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on December 14, 2018, 08:11:20 AM
Well I dare say the key must still meet some of the criteria originally set for it, but I don't think any Honda engineers would have designed a 43 year lifespan into any part of the bike, let alone the most used / abused part!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on January 02, 2019, 02:34:24 PM
So current project status is as follows. Total spend is £2200. Still haven't started the engine, but 90% of the cycle parts are either done or in progress with a clear end in sight. I fitted the controls a couple days ago so the amount of 'brrmmm brrrmmm' noises from the garage have increased somewhat. 8)
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 02, 2019, 02:53:44 PM
👍👍👍
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on January 11, 2019, 08:19:14 AM
Lots of stuff screwed on to the bike over the last few days. Clocks, headlight bracket, coils, shiny shiny mudguard (Bertram's, from ebay if you're interested). Starting to look like a real bike now!

The tank it came with is currently at the blasters. I gave them the instruction "take the paint off gently". I think what will happen is they'll sweep it back into a bag for me to come and collect at some point.

Feel like the engine is looming!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 11, 2019, 11:17:54 AM
Looking good. Not far to go now👍
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on January 18, 2019, 11:28:19 AM
Some progress - I couldn't resist putting the tank in place and lightly treating it to a bit of Tcut! Then I stopped gushing and fitted the rear mudguard, grab handle and indicators.

What. A. Palaver.

Mudguard was a repro, chrome in the threads meant I couldn't screw anything in. Tried to tap the thread out using guff tools made of Chinesium. Fail. Temper tantrum. Next day, with a proper set bought locally it was a doddle and I was much happier. Because I got the handle from DS, it's predictably not a proper fit (for a 750 iirc?) but looking at it, if it met the frame rather than the indicator bracket it would be flush. If I removed some rubber from under the mount it might actually look a little nicer. Project for a summer evening I think.

Made a loom for the rear lights from the old main loom, I had exactly the right amount of cable left in the correct colours, which is a coincidence that makes me think I should buy a lottery ticket at the weekend!

Just the rear light to fit now and I can fully test all the electrics and finally get busy on the noisy bits. ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 18, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
It's getting there.
I use auto glym vinyl and rubber trim restorer on black plastic parts like mudguards and tool trays\lids. I leave it on for a few days to let it soak in before wiping it off. Everything comes up like new and the finish lasts despite washing.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 18, 2019, 12:21:18 PM
Yours looks the same as mine  :-\
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on January 22, 2019, 09:01:27 AM
Julie your indicator stalks are different to mine, they're chrome and look like they'll wobble about a lot less!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 22, 2019, 09:07:49 AM
Those black brackets look like they're from a 500.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 22, 2019, 09:26:16 AM
Julie, my brackets are the same as those on Sprockets bike. These are the brackets that were impossible to obtain new or s/h. I searched everywhere for a couple eventually getting a couple from ebay that need repair to the earth tangs. DS is (was?) making reproduction brackets when I last looked.
Sprocket, my rear handle looks the same as yours on both my original 400/4 and the one I restored a couple of years ago with a pattern handle.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 22, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
My indicator stalks are chrome aftermarket ones.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on January 22, 2019, 10:05:25 AM
Julie, my brackets are the same as those on Sprockets bike. These are the brackets that were impossible to obtain new or s/h. I searched everywhere for a couple eventually getting a couple from ebay that need repair to the earth tangs. DS is (was?) making reproduction brackets when I last looked.
Sprocket, my rear handle looks the same as yours on both my original 400/4 and the one I restored a couple of years ago with a pattern handle.
Yeah I looked at the DS pattern stalks and the price made me purchase a tin of P38 and Hammerite! All the books pointed to them being OEM too, although as it happens my bike was a bit of a bitsa and I don't really trust anything!

And the handle. It's ok, but as previously highlighted, the 400 and 750 handles are the same length but the 400 should have a slight twist in it, to make it sit parallel to the frame. I suspect the 750 one mounts directly to the frame, where the 400 uses the indicator stalk hole.

I must admit, becoming nerdy about these things is actually fun.  :D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Athame57 on February 04, 2019, 06:01:47 PM
Is the mudflap on the front fender something that is supposed to be there and can I get one if it is?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on February 04, 2019, 06:29:13 PM
They we not fitted as standard although a few people had aftermarket ones fitted usually with 'HONDA' logo's in white. I had one fitted on my first 400/4 in 1979 that I bought from Speedway of Acton (long since gone🙁). My mates called me an old man so I removed it after a while along with the huge barn door fairing, white fibreglass panniers and matching top  box.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Athame57 on February 04, 2019, 06:41:58 PM
......then I shall not seek one!  8)
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 08, 2019, 04:22:35 PM
I might restore the flap and fit it, it's got that 'rally' look to it, and I do love me a bit of group B...
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 11, 2019, 01:31:24 PM
So I've popped the engine apart! I've discovered the head gasket was installed upside down, a whole load of gunge in one of the oil restrictors and two of the pistons' rings have broken. But, I consider this a bit of a 'win' as there doesn't appear to be any damage to the pistons, bores, valves etc.

I'm going to take the bits into a local motor engineering company, I called them up today and they said they'd give me some advice if I needed it, but bring the bits in to look at and stroke beards by.

All the pistons have 'Honda written on them, so I would guess they're original and thus I'd be getting the standard sized stuff from DS to replace the rings. Sound logic?

The bores are completely smooth, as you might expect in a 60k mile engine! Am I to expect the engineers to recommend a hone and just replace the broken piston rings, or does anyone think I'm being far too naive?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 11, 2019, 02:44:05 PM
At 60k, i would be expecting a lot of things to be beyond service limit now. Even if everything looks ok to the eye, everything needs to be measured, including the bores, to see if they are close to or beyond spec. A rebore is most likely at that mileage. Are your Honda pistons / rings standard size or oversize?. I'm assuming if the head gasket has been installed upside down, someone has been in there before.
And don't forget to fit new primary chain when you rebuild the bottom end and cam chain, totally false economy not to. And make sure your local engineering shop know about early Honda engines, the tolerances are very, very tight on these old girls.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 11, 2019, 04:12:41 PM
At 60k, i would be expecting a lot of things to be beyond service limit now. Even if everything looks ok to the eye, everything needs to be measured, including the bores, to see if they are close to or beyond spec. A rebore is most likely at that mileage. Are your Honda pistons / rings standard size or oversize?. I'm assuming if the head gasket has been installed upside down, someone has been in there before.
And don't forget to fit new primary chain when you rebuild the bottom end and cam chain, totally false economy not to. And make sure your local engineering shop know about early Honda engines, the tolerances are very, very tight on these old girls.
:) I was hoping you'd reply! I don't even know how to measure pistons to see if they're standard or oversize at the mo, so I expect I'll be leaving it with the engineers for a little while so they can measure stuff and advise. It certainly seemed like they were up for telling me what I needed to get, and letting them do the work I can't. I've previously experienced people getting a little testy when you say you just want them to do that. (Car stuff - "we can't give you a warranty, so don't come crying", etc)

I have used the engineers before for a couple little bits so I have a reasonable expectation they'll know what they're doing. I'm just keen to do as much as I can, and learn along the way.  8)
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 11, 2019, 05:41:25 PM
Yes, it's great to DIY and learn but it can be a costly exercise as well. You will need to take the Haynes Manual with you to the engineers as it has the service limits in. Also, if you found crud in a restrictor jet, you need to strip the complete engine, thoroughly clean all oilways and the main oil gallery as that crud had come from somewhere and was travelling to somewhere else so anything or everything could be blocked or full of sludge.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 12, 2019, 08:05:06 AM
Yep, when I noted the positive stopper had broken, I made a mental note it's all coming apart anyway. I've been following the youtube videos and comparing to the book so far, and there's been relatively few show stoppers. Combine those two resources with you lot here and I reckon I'm laughing! :)

Costs wise, I reckoned a rebuild would set me back about £1000 but that wouldn't include any massive surprises. So I think we're still good at this point!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on February 12, 2019, 10:25:58 AM
Re U-tube on this. There is a pretty good strip / rebuild thread out there but remember when I was taking clutch off, I referenced that bit in the video as I was wondering how he locked the engine. Haynes made no reference either. He said something like his mate had a special tool (that we all know you need). However the video then flicked straight into clutch having been removed, so you did not see any locking method used.

Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 12, 2019, 10:30:55 AM
See I was worried about that too, but in my case the large nut wasn't in any way tight. After I unbent the retaining washer thing, I could unscrew it without needing to even use the clutch socket thing I bought! I feel like it's one of those that you need to 'shock' loose if needs be, with an impact driver.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on February 12, 2019, 11:26:50 AM
See I was worried about that too, but in my case the large nut wasn't in any way tight. After I unbent the retaining washer thing, I could unscrew it without needing to even use the clutch socket thing I bought! I feel like it's one of those that you need to 'shock' loose if needs be, with an impact driver.
Just locked the gearbox via final drive as suggested on this very forum.  It was just if you are gong to do such a video and take all that time, why not cover difficult parts, assuming the idea was to help others. :P

I had mislaid my tool for the job but far too impatient, so fashioned a 2 prong version with some flat steel. Did the job with adjustable spanner for leverage.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Bryanj on February 12, 2019, 01:00:31 PM
Kawasaki had a workshop tool that was big molegrips with bent long legs that clamped into the inner splines, was quiet cheap when i was doing them so bought one
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on February 28, 2019, 07:02:42 AM
So after some flu and other 'life events' I finally got round to taking the most final step and splitting the cases. Stubborn front mount bolt still there, I worked around it with a spanner and have left a bolt in for the engineers to fix. Also there's what's left of a sump bolt still in the bottom half, I may have a go or I may let them deal with it.

As expected the camchain adjuster locking bolt thread has completely gone though, which is disappointing. I was so careful not to touch it until I'd split the cases! I wound it in, looked at the end for any sign of mushrooming, there was none. Extracted what I thought was a little loose gunge on the end, then gradually back and forthed it. Bolt looked ok, but the thread inside has completely disappeared.

I did note the bolt wasn't straight too, which I assumed was going to be a problem. But on inspection inside, there is a drilling hole in the casting that isn't straight, so I'm not sure that's actually a problem. Ah well, will let the engineers sort it out.

Overall was pleasantly surprised there was less loose metal in there than I was expecting, but I did find the source of the other mysterious swarf in the sump. Top gear. Seems like it could be a common issue too, judging by how many gear sets are for sale without this one, or with it damaged  ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on April 07, 2019, 10:23:45 PM
Have received the cases and barrels back from the engineers. Front mount drilled out with a long drill. Cam adjuster repair kit fitted (front case needed machining a bit to get the internals to line up properly). Barrels measured and would you believe were still within tolerance for a standard set of pistons. The guys told me I could probably put the originals back in with a new set of rings if I wanted, but they always recommend new ones on historic rebuilds like this. The grooves were just over tolerance on pistons 1 & 4. Anyhoo, ordered a full set of standard ones from cruzinimage after some research and will see how I get on.

Slight pause in proceedings now while I wait for a power supply for my zinc plating kit. Silly me thought my battery charger could be fooled into powering it. Didn't check until I'd acid stripped all the bolts for the oil pump, so even though Julie got me a set of O rings super quick (thanks again!!) it's gonna be a week or so before I can refurb it.

Have a set of gears from a 14k mile bike too, from USA. They look a great deal sharper than the ones that came out, so that's a good sign too. Oh, and I also got a horn from a CL360 which comes with the same cover and bracket. Shipping was astronomical but the part itself was about $9. Still no idea if it works yet though, the bike is up tight against the wall now while I concentrate on the engine.

Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on June 11, 2019, 08:18:48 AM
Quick update, I haven't stopped working on it!

Cleaning, cleaning and cleaning has finally meant I can't find any traces of dirt on a clean cloth when I touch any part of the cases, inside, outside, oil galleries etc. Some of those 90 degree bends inside are almost impossible to get to, but many cable ties and a couple clothes hangers put their lives to the cause!

Have decided to get all new bearing shells, a couple might have been able to be cleaned, but I figured I may as well get it all sorted once, rather than pull it apart again in future. An eye-watering £218 to Long John Silver in exchange for 18 bits of curved metal...  :-X

Crank is pretty much assembled now, torqued up the big ends slowly, then again the following day and a satisfying teeny blob of green paint on each nut. The little things that provide satisfaction!

The gear clusters I got from America have been knobbled. In the countershaft one of the oil plugs was missing, the other punched through with a screwdriver. Although the old one I had was complete, I had no way of getting them out. So I went to see the friendly engineers and am waiting for them to turn down some brass to fit. While I was there they did mention they look like 11mm core plugs (which I have spotted online for a few quid) but I feel like getting something engineered to fit properly is the safest bet.

Spent some time measuring up the piston rings in the kit I received from Cruzinimage. All within spec, nothing needed filing back at all. Managed to bust a black ring assembling one of the pistons though. Top marks for customer service from the seller though, I explained I did it and they came back with a pretty reasonable price for a replacement set (2 rings and a 3 piece oil control set).

Jury is still out on what to use to bond the cases back together. Hondabond, Yamabond, Threebond, Toothpaste, Silicon Sealer, Sand & Cement, etc... Answers on a postcard please...
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on June 11, 2019, 08:34:31 AM
Keep going 👍. Post some progress photos if you can. I use Honda bond for the cases.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: K2-K6 on June 11, 2019, 08:38:51 AM
"Jury is still out on what to use to bond the cases back together. Hondabond, Yamabond, Threebond, Toothpaste, Silicon Sealer, Sand & Cement, etc... Answers on a postcard please..."

I've seen a few that look like they've been assembled with sand and cement  ;D but you may need planning permission for that  ;D ;D

It's a nice step when you get everything clean and ready to go together,  sounds like good progress.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 11, 2019, 08:56:51 AM
Hondabond. But, I think any of them, yambond, suzukibond etc are all Threebond just in different tubes. Avoid white bathroom sealant, it makes such a mess 😀😀😁😀
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 10, 2019, 08:45:36 AM
So the engine is buttoned back up! No massive problems putting it back together. Last evening I cleaned up the exhaust studs and put the good ones back in. One was 'short' and one was an M6 bolt, so I've ordered replacements.
Looking forward to cleaning up the carbs, I have a Crusinimage kit I'll be breaking open in a couple days. Few jobs left to do before I fit the engine; new rear tyre, paint the rear wheel spokes, repair the master cylinder as it's puked it's guts all over my floor....
Then I think the real work starts!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on July 10, 2019, 11:04:04 AM
Good progress Sprocket👍.
I have the master cylinder to rebuild on my 400/4. That's going to be fun, the hardest part is removing the circlip. I modified an old pair of circlip pliers to do the job on the m/cyl a couple of tears ago.
Keep the photos coming.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mattsz on July 10, 2019, 11:40:04 AM
Good progress Sprocket👍.
I have the master cylinder to rebuild on my 400/4. That's going to be fun, the hardest part is removing the circlip. I modified an old pair of circlip pliers to do the job on the m/cyl a couple of tears ago.

I shed a few tears myself, trying to remove that circlip...
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 10, 2019, 11:53:41 AM
I have two master cylinders, so I can practise and cock one of them up while I polish my technique!  :o
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: paul G on July 10, 2019, 12:18:51 PM
Good progress Sprocket👍.
I have the master cylinder to rebuild on my 400/4. That's going to be fun, the hardest part is removing the circlip. I modified an old pair of circlip pliers to do the job on the m/cyl a couple of tears ago.
Keep the photos coming.
I did exactly the same thing just ground them down  :D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 10, 2019, 01:48:49 PM
Looking good 👍👍👍
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 16, 2019, 04:54:58 PM
Not much of an update, but I did 'have' to turn it round in the garage last evening...
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 16, 2019, 05:01:39 PM
She'll be up and running in no time now. Does look good. Have you tightened the lock nut on the cam chain adjuster?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 16, 2019, 06:30:37 PM
It's tight but not adjusted. I think start and break-in will be ok with it as is, what you reckon?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 16, 2019, 07:33:09 PM
It's tight but not adjusted. I think start and break-in will be ok with it as is, what you reckon?
It should be fully adjusted before you start running in the engine. If the cam chain is flapping around in the tunnel, its not going to do it much good. Also, the chain on the sprocket wheel pulls the camshaft down in to optimum position, therefore it needs to be fully adjusted to make everything work as it should.
Edit...I should have added that you still need to check it is fully adjusted when the engine is running. But, I found that by adjusting it fully before, it wouldn't take any further adjustment anyway.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 17, 2019, 08:43:14 AM
Ah right, the procedure in the book of words said to slack off the bolt (and let it adjust itself) when the engine was running. I suppose I could do that before I start it to get it most of the way there. I'm concerned the running in process is going to be a bit frantic enough though!

Carbs will have to be bench-balanced, sparks will have to be 'almost right' and hope everything holds together for 10 mins run!  :o
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 17, 2019, 08:56:11 AM
Agree, the book of words does say that. But, once you get the bike fired up, the last thing you want to do is have it sitting running, getting very hot, whilst you fettle and adjust things. It's best to do as much as you can before even starting the engine for the 1st time, so you can ride away, getting air round the engine to keep the engine temp down. Fine adjustments to carbs, cam chain etc can be done when the bike is well run in.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on July 17, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
:) Sheepishly looking forward to it now! Thank you!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on July 17, 2019, 09:06:04 AM
It will be very exciting for you. Dont do the first ride on a hot day. Just don't let her get too hot, I know you have new pistons and rings, so you need a lit of cool air around the top end to avoid over heating and seizure whilst running in. Just make sure when you fire her up that you have oil getting to the top end by removing a tappet cap at each end and watch for splashes / specs of oil. If you don't see this, stop the engine and investigate / rectify or you could cook your top end 😱😱😱
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Bryanj on July 17, 2019, 03:43:25 PM
If you adjust it the way i did for all my years in the trade it will be OK to run for quite a few miles.
1 loosen lock nut
2 loosen lock bolt
3 put weight on kickstart so that you can feel engine about to turn over
4 whilst holding this position nip up lockbolt
5 let go kickstart and nip up locknut

This pulls the front run tight and has all the slack in the side with adjuster blade so if horseshoe free and decent springs on pusher it should be OK
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 05, 2019, 08:12:56 AM
Seems like another lifetime ago this was in one piece. Happy (!) to report it is possible to get an engine in with just one person. Laid the engine on a mat, propped it up at a bit of an angle and then laid the bike over the top of it. Bit of shoving and humping around and then lifted the both of them together.

At that point I realised the good old powder coating issue. Rear bottom engine mounts are so tight, they won't accept the engine with the powder coat on. So, while on the main stand, with the front lowers in I jacked the engine up and chiseled the coat off around the insides. Slather with grease and try again - job is a very goodun'.

Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 05, 2019, 08:38:50 AM
Great progress.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on August 05, 2019, 11:02:58 AM
Well done, getting the engine back in the frame is a milestone moment.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 07, 2019, 12:18:15 PM
Small amount of progress, but momentum is building now...

Chain on. Adjusted the rear wheel. Chain guard on. Sprocket cover on. Gear lever on. Now can confirm the electrics seem to work, in that I have oil pressure and neutral lights. Horn was refurbed but now refuses to work. Most likely because of my awful attempt at re-crimping it. Think I'll have to admit defeat and buy a new one :(

Tank is currently outside as it's dripping occasionally. I had 2 tanks and took the best looking petcock and put in the better tank after cleaning with Phosphoric acid. I opened up the other petcock and can see some O rings that are probably the culprits of the leaks. Will see if I can get replacements.

Spent a while puzzling over the breather tube. There's a long pipe that goes from the collector under the air filter up to the top of the cam cover, but I can't work out how the air plenum connects to it, should there be a tee piece?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 07, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
There should be a white plastic attachment on the bottom of the air filter box with outlet spouts. The one that comes out horizontal takes the pipe to the breather on top of cam cover, the other vertical spout takes a pipe to atmosphere.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 07, 2019, 12:33:10 PM
Cheers Julie! So the connection from the plenum goes somewhere else?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 07, 2019, 12:34:24 PM
Cheers Julie! So the connection from the plenum goes somewhere else?
Yes, it goes to atmosphere also, it's just a drain tube.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: 10tenmen on August 16, 2019, 07:45:23 PM
There should be a white plastic attachment on the bottom of the air filter box with outlet spouts. The one that comes out horizontal takes the pipe to the breather on top of cam cover, the other vertical spout takes a pipe to atmosphere.
Lol just joined Julie and you have helped me solve a problem with the hose from the cam cover due to it not being attached.  Thanks Gary
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on August 16, 2019, 09:06:42 PM
There should be a white plastic attachment on the bottom of the air filter box with outlet spouts. The one that comes out horizontal takes the pipe to the breather on top of cam cover, the other vertical spout takes a pipe to atmosphere.
Lol just joined Julie and you have helped me solve a problem with the hose from the cam cover due to it not being attached.  Thanks Gary
Haha, you will find that most of the queries you have Gary will have been queried by more than one of us in the past.........This is an excellent forum for asking questions and getting answers.
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: mattsz on August 16, 2019, 11:31:15 PM
Welcome Gary!

Haha, you will find that most of the queries you have Gary will have been queried by more than one of us in the past.........This is an excellent forum for asking questions and getting answers.

Very true - in addition, you will (almost) never simply be told to do a search for an answer... this is a top-notch community!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on August 19, 2019, 09:02:18 AM
Finished putting attaching most of the important pieces on Saturday
[attach=1][attach=2]

Sunday morning I decided to actually try to start it.

Would you believe it was on the first prod of the starter?

No, me neither. In fact though - I think I can claim this... When you set the fuel tap to 'On' instead of 'Res' and you only have about a litre of fuel in it, then realise, and set it correctly ... THIS happens:

https://youtu.be/vglFIYK9DAI

I let it warm up for a minute or so, playing with the throttle and watching all manner of smoke appear from various places, but the engine was firing on 4 and seemed pretty dang smooth!

I took it up the road for a quick ride, got into 3rd and noted a bit of clutch slip, so gingerly brought it back. Could be because I cleaned the plates, or they could be at the end of their limit - they were thin but still had some life left, will try again at some point and report back.

Next job is to start at the front of the bike and work back, checking torque of every fastener and giving it a dob of paint.

Then I'll flat the side panels, stick the stickers on and lacquer - then we'll consider this job done! ;D
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 02, 2019, 11:44:36 AM
Well, I think this project has reached a significant milestone, in that I've been carried 85 miles under it's own power now!

I had the clutch out on Saturday to look at why it was slipping about 5k, seems the basket fingers were pretty well scalloped so I filed them flat and cross hatched the steel clutch plates. Fresh oil back in, and it's like night and day, proper strong clutch action.

Further running in about 50 miles tootling round taking the revs up to about 5-6k, mixture of hard work and varied speeds - all seems good so far!

Had a long chat with a farmer coming out of his gate who stopped and told me it was a really nice job. That perked me up a bit too, cos I think it looks a bit rough!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: taysidedragon on September 02, 2019, 11:49:55 AM
Looking good. 👍
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Greg65 on September 02, 2019, 12:27:23 PM
When we are close up and personal with our projects, we often get engrossed in our current problem and the next one on the horizon. I certainly forgot to stand back and look at what I had achieved. You need someone to remind you. Well done.

Greg
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Laverda Dave on September 02, 2019, 03:29:48 PM
Lovely job👍. You think it's a bit rough 😮!
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Nurse Julie on September 02, 2019, 03:33:28 PM
Very nice, great work. I saw on the USA forum you were having problems with it smoking, possibly valve stem seals, did you get that sorted ?
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 03, 2019, 08:21:51 AM
Er, not guilty m'lud! I haven't got the same name on that forum, I presumed someone else already had it. And I'm interested now, but can't see the forum - it's been up and down for a while.  :(
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Windycorner on September 03, 2019, 10:14:33 AM
Nice bike that, the paintwork looks lovely and glossy 8) 
Title: Re: 1975 400/4 project
Post by: Sprocket on September 03, 2019, 11:47:33 AM
The light flatters it! :)
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