Post by: K2-K6 on January 09, 2023, 09:18:53 AM
In an ideal situation these developments and consideration would have happened 20~30 years ago, in which case decisions wouldn't be in such a forced state now and with more evolved solutions to accomplish differences in end user profile.
I've put the race link here as I believe it offers more open comparison of raw capabilities in direct numbers than alot of the consumer facing fluff that's put out currently.
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 09, 2023, 10:44:25 AM
The actual screen area assigned to text that you can actually read is tiny.
I have given up completely on my local news websites.
Many years ago I was invited by Triumph to complete a questionnaire about electric bikes. They wanted to know what an existing Triumph owner would want in an electric bike.
If I remember, mine were:
100 mph performance (I don’t ever go faster than that nowadays)
200 mile range (I very rarely do more than 150 miles)
200kg
Tin hat ready. Awaiting incoming
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 09, 2023, 10:45:58 AM
I feel the same way about electric cars & bikes - as exiting as a dish washer.
Post by: Lobo on January 09, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
As for steam loco, I recently bought one!
A ‘00’ Hornby Live Steam Mallard - unused (as yet) and in its box from 2005. Literally awesome for me; that a genuine steam loco can be made this small. For those interested, the rails supply 17v / 7A to a heated tank in the tender, which then pipes steam to the loco, where it is then super heated and fed to the pistons. Control is via electrical pulses, and includes reverse. Easy to control if happy to be a mile short or long of the station platform 😂
(Full disclosure- I haven’t even a train set. Just ‘needed’ this 😀
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 09, 2023, 12:20:58 PM
It’s a wonder they don’t get welded to the track.
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 09, 2023, 12:54:02 PM
I have no doubt electric cars & bikes are very fast on acceleration - would I rather be on a a Steam Locomotive doing 80 mph or an Electric Train at 120 mph. Steam every time.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 10, 2023, 11:50:31 AM
Shame those websites are so difficult to read, what with pop-ups, pop-downs, sliders and auto-start video ads.
The actual screen area assigned to text that you can actually read is tiny.
I have given up completely on my local news websites.
Many years ago I was invited by Triumph to complete a questionnaire about electric bikes. They wanted to know what an existing Triumph owner would want in an electric bike.
If I remember, mine were:
100 mph performance (I don’t ever go faster than that nowadays)
200 mile range (I very rarely do more than 150 miles)
200kg
Tin hat ready. Awaiting incoming
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes you're right Steve about that site. I've read it for years as it generally stays current, but ever more junk litter all over the place.
The range thing I certainly agree with, it's just not particularly good and why I think this scenario with ducati working to produce a pinnacle product (matched against their acknowledged pinnacle of motoGP) offers such a reasonable view of where the capabilities are rather than the smokescreen of product promotion that just will not address this aspect in reality.
So many electric vehicles reviews start with "there's instant torque from nothing" then some idiot shouting "whaoooooo, that's incredible" while accelerating ::)
They (the industry as a whole) need to deal with reality of competent ownership for people that are going to stump up the money and "wear" the horrendous depreciation to not be a match for combustion vehicles, especially in motorcycles, to be credible.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 10, 2023, 12:00:07 PM
Interesting article, when we went from Steam Trains to Electric as a young boy I lost all interest in Trains & Trainspotting. I've been on a few steam trains since then - enjoyed the sound, smoke & mechanical marvels etc - nostalgia is a real emotion.
I feel the same way about electric cars & bikes - as exiting as a dish washer.
Its certainly interesting that which we find fits our requirements in technical/aesthetic measures from life influences.
My son is lamenting the withdrawal of diesel electric HST train units as his favourite. Only travelled on them briefly but formed quite a place in his appreciation for design, sound, pace etc.
I've a part to play in that when he was very young I'd take him in pushchair to sit on a little old riveted footbridge over mainline through wimbledon, many hours spent waiting for "just another train" before we went home. Just occasionally we'd get a class 66 diesel hauling agregate around london, waiting on the side there for clearance before spooling up from standstill to move, we could stand right above it as it went under our feet, made quite an impressive experience obviously ;D
Post by: Lobo on January 10, 2023, 01:11:25 PM
Conversely, actual owners, will GENERALLY say that their expectations have been far exceeded and that ICEs are a thing of the past for them.
It boils down to circumstances I guess; ie your government and incentives, recharge infrastructure, what daily mileage you do, off street parking versus home, solar panels, reliable sunshine, electrical tariffs… the list goes on. Consequently it’s perhaps unfair to universally criticise? Whatever we feel though, electric powered vehicles (battery / fuel cell / whatever) are coming, and will replace the ICE of that I’m personally sure. I’m also bloody sure that they won’t be cheaper to run as thems above us will have their fingers in the tills at all times, so I indeed accept the savings argument as a myth.
The most obvious bit of logic to me though, is WHY would you want 2000 moving parts when you can have 20? Nostalgia plays a big part for certain, but then we’re only nostalgic when we’re driving our horse and carts, steam trains, ICEs - and not having to deal with the smelly horse poo, hot oil, and grimy clearing out of smoke boxes at the end of stupidly short service cycles… let alone the time & £s expense of it all.
An interesting YouTube below by someone whose taken a great deal of time and investigation wrt CURRENT ownership costs wrt an EV vs ICE Mini. It may surprise you?
Alrighty… Tin hat on 😂.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKxruQ8XFX4
Post by: Oddjob on January 10, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
"Ouch"
"nope, he isn't"
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 10, 2023, 02:45:52 PM
To be fair the development of EV's has been rushed compared to ICE development. There is no standard battery voltage even basic stuff like radial or axial flux motors & windings are still in major development.
It's like the home video recorder markets of VHS v Betamax v Phillips 1900 etc.
Oddly enough the only electric car I like is the early 2018/9 BMW i3 with the range extender option. Seems such a simple idea having what is effectively an on board battery charger powered by a 650cc petrol engine. Sadly they ditched the range extender.
Knowing the issues of some hybrid batteries failing leading to a worthless relatively new car it's battery life rather than range that makes the idea of a EV a no go unless you can afford to lease from new.
I suspect private vehicle ownership will shrink not expand as the costs climb - probably what the government wants as it tries to make us use public transport.
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 10, 2023, 02:51:32 PM
Ted; have you actually ridden an electric m’cycle? I haven’t, but I’d do believe it’d give you more excitement than you can handle… Hearsay for sure, but my m’cycling buddy was recently telling me of a ‘friend-of-a-friend’ thrown off his electric charge due his mis-controlling the acceleration, I honestly believe this as owner of an EV (‘housewife’s shopping’) car which does 0-60 in 7 secs, and regarded as unremarkable in the EV world. (BMW i3)Man o man, I want that, what a fab distraction toy!
As for steam loco, I recently bought one!
A ‘00’ Hornby Live Steam Mallard - unused (as yet) and in its box from 2005. Literally awesome for me; that a genuine steam loco can be made this small. For those interested, the rails supply 17v / 7A to a heated tank in the tender, which then pipes steam to the loco, where it is then super heated and fed to the pistons. Control is via electrical pulses, and includes reverse. Easy to control if happy to be a mile short or long of the station platform
(Full disclosure- I haven’t even a train set. Just ‘needed’ this
Was it horrendously expensive?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: andy120t on January 10, 2023, 03:51:47 PM
Petrol 412 pounds pcm
EV 522 pounds pcm
...which I would class as quite a difference. (at about 5.17 in the video).
Post by: taysidedragon on January 10, 2023, 04:26:06 PM
Until they cost the same to buy as an ICE and the range / refuel issues are resolved I won't consider getting one.
I frequently drive my car on long journeys, up to 500 miles in a day, and or to destinations where there are literally zero charging points. I'm talking remote steading on a Scottish island, where even the mains electricity is dodgy. My bike rides can often be 250/300 miles in a day if the weather is good. (Got to make the most of the good days!) I do not want to be suffering from range worries, especially miles from civilization. 😟
I love the sound of an ICE going through the gears, electric just doesn't have that. The electric Audis on the Dakar rally or the MotoE bikes are prime examples. A petrol engine racing through the gears sounds fantastic, makes your hairs stand on end, the electric vehicles just sound like a Scalectrix car, not exciting at all.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 10, 2023, 04:57:04 PM
I drive around 3,500 miles a year in my car with Wendy's being under 3,000miles. Our capital costs 5 & 2 years ago were just under £5k for the Jeep the Freelander was £13k both bought outright.
Being retired the capital costs of an EV & a Heat Pump conversion are completely out of reach being on a pension that will not keep up with inflation even with index linking.
Post by: Lobo on January 10, 2023, 10:00:26 PM
They were a very short run by Hornby (4 yrs / 2004’ish?) I think the expense, complexity, relative lack of controllability, and most of all, incompatibility with your existing layout sealed the nail. The voltage and delivery thereof, is incompatible with standard 12v locos, meaning the LiveSteam range needed their own dedicated track. Folk who run them favourably comment on the smell; you are of course poking oil and water fairly regularly into them.
Post by: Lobo on January 10, 2023, 10:20:38 PM
YouTube is spooky, and lately has been throwing up clips of large Diesel engines cranking and starting. Often it’ll be a Deltic class loco, or better still, some old girl that’s stood years and being woken up. Fascinating, esp when the video gives a walkthrough of the ‘engine room’ of these Diesel-electrics. Mrs Lobo just rolls her eyes - not a glimmer of hope there… 😂
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 10, 2023, 11:03:39 PM
My brother, being a Train Ned' made sure it rubbed off on me and I always loved the steam but had appreciation for the big sooty diesels. The Deltic was and still is my favourite. I spent years being dragged about behind alsorts of stuff from Warship class engines to 08's and the small shunters that are still used today, up and down the Settle and Carlisle, North York Moors, East coast Mainline, and hundreds of hours on cold, drippy stations, waiting for summut to turn up
I've seen these start up videos and seen a few now, brilliant, what a din........and you gotta love the flames ;D I had chance to go into the engine room of a running Deltic whilst somewhere or other when I was about 8 or 9. I was staggered by the sheer noise of the thing and how much wind it produced inside the engine compartment with all the belts, fans, rads etc going like buggery even on tick over. AWSOME engine!
The phrase mentioned earlier 'Spooling up' made me smirk, it was the bit you were always waiting for. Daft really but just made me smirk having a think.
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 11, 2023, 06:52:57 AM
Perpetuating the thread drift here.
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2023, 09:01:57 AM
Not a train nerd, but didn’t the Deltic have some weird and wonderful cylinder layout?
Perpetuating the thread drift here.
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Yes, Deltic deriving from Greek Delta symbol, has a triangle inverted with crankshaft at each node (so one at base, two at top) each one running a set of rods/piston in vee formation, the piston crowns meeting at centre of each bore where combustion takes place ! phew :)
Each piston rod etc balancing itself against its opposed assembly at compression and bottom of stroke too. Also used in motor torpedo boats i believe.
It's quite a unique configuration and very light for it's power output too as so many power stroke are dispensed within a relatively small area. One hellavu size overall though.
Can only come in slices of three barrels and six piston sectors added together.
Post by: andy120t on January 11, 2023, 10:24:54 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2023, 10:42:32 AM
[attachimg=1]
And, do you think I've got the timing right on this ?
[attachimg=2]
Or, I've got a flat washer left over, does anyone know where this goes ? ;D
Post by: Lobo on January 11, 2023, 12:54:26 PM
Post by: andy120t on January 11, 2023, 01:05:43 PM
Post by: SteveW on January 11, 2023, 01:19:43 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2023, 01:43:34 PM
OMG. I’m saying nuthin…😱
Interesting how these things are looked at and where the detail is located, integral or remotely. I travelled on District line yesterday, wimbledon to nottinghill, although I'd guess the traction motors are relatively simple ? The absolute colosul miles of cabling far outweighs this aspect. Hadn't thought of it in that way before, but infrastructure outside the pure traction is immense, that in comparison to a diesel locomotive needing just rails and fuel tank to run.
Post by: Bryanj on January 11, 2023, 03:09:13 PM
Post by: SteveW on January 11, 2023, 06:38:27 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174945741665?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=dZr0ucJ5RwO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=DvCJAq6nRv6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2023, 07:57:42 PM
The NSU RO80 had way fewer parts than a reciprocating engine as did the rotary engined Norton. Didn't make them a seller or more reliable & it bankrupted NSU.
There's not much needed for me to post this again https://youtu.be/QtUEPwHnxmU as example of ice indoctrination. Quad rotor wankel, so 4 rotating main parts, one crankshaft and a bunch of bearings.
They started this one at goodwood fos one year, sounds like armagedon, has wierd doppler effect in soundstage (like the noise surrounds you) and had people walking towards it like zombies, not really knowing what it was. It's a freaky noise and possibly deep in our response cortex may resemble being chased by a mad bear ;D
Seems like a human brain development path, to chase fear as there lives progress. :D or something of that ilk.
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 11, 2023, 08:39:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdAiVIs0VZk
Post by: Lobo on January 11, 2023, 09:31:35 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2023, 11:02:46 PM
There’s a Deltic on EBay if anyone has a spare 25klooks quite a purchase, seems to be mod and wonder what for usage wise.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174945741665?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=dZr0ucJ5RwO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=DvCJAq6nRv6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
This one makes me laugh for looking at old engines https://youtu.be/l04qWEEPFEk with Robbie Coltrane and Don Garlitz of drag race fame "appreciating" a classic V8.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2023, 12:25:13 PM
Never particularly thought of it that way Nige; but the telling point is I guess, that cabling / pure electric appears to be the preferred option to Diesel-Elect where available? All before Greta Thunberg etc, so you’d have to assume the accountants are responsible?Its a measure of just how complex finding viable solutions maybe, everything with a cost to this planet but often not given in general discussion as focus is often on immediate environments.
Just that trip across London for us, district line to nottinghill gate, then hybrid double decker bus (sit up top at the front, as them's the rules :) ) electric pull away, fuel (possibly lpg) after about 100 mtrs, dont know if it's regen stopping, we crossed, all in one combination, Paddington approach route, you can see tunnel entrance to new Cross rail Elizabeth line, under the high level westway motorway, while simultaneously going over the Grand Union canal coming down into Paddington Basin from industrial supplying areas.
Certainly quite a sweep of all available transit/transport systems, and brings into focus just how long term decisions have to play out in reality. also with every city on the planet having this complexity of infrastructure built or building up.
Post by: andy120t on January 12, 2023, 03:04:18 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-64250566
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2023, 03:17:04 PM
We all need to eat more chips...that's how the RAF are doing it!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-64250566
We'd better get cracking, my local chippy is opening in a couple of hours ;D
Brings the possibility of good advertising slogan "help our defence, eat chips for Britain"
Or "Your country needs you.......to eat more chips" ;D ;D
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 12, 2023, 05:38:46 PM
https://youtube.com/shorts/R8rsIdxMILA?feature=share
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 12, 2023, 09:17:34 PM
The NSU RO80 had way fewer parts than a reciprocating engine as did the rotary engined Norton. Didn't make them a seller or more reliable & it bankrupted NSU.
There's not much needed for me to post this again https://youtu.be/QtUEPwHnxmU as example of ice indoctrination. Quad rotor wankel, so 4 rotating main parts, one crankshaft and a bunch of bearings.
They started this one at goodwood fos one year, sounds like armagedon, has wierd doppler effect in soundstage (like the noise surrounds you) and had people walking towards it like zombies, not really knowing what it was. It's a freaky noise and possibly deep in our response cortex may resemble being chased by a mad bear ;D
Seems like a human brain development path, to chase fear as there lives progress. :D or something of that ilk.
Just played the video clip of the howling banshee of an engine - our Chihuahuas all started barking as the noise hit them!