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SOHC.co.uk Forums => Other Bikes => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 06:55:06 AM

Title: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 06:55:06 AM
Having seen the Electric Harley Davidson on TV got me thinking about some of the latest technology in electric motors for transportation.
I am an ICE fan - I cant get excited about washing machine based engines but..................

Currently manufacturers of EV's use radial flux electric motors but a UK engineer Tim Woolmer has developed an existing design using axial flux technology. He has obtained 214 bhp & 266 lb ft of torque from an electric motor weighing just 24 Kg now developed to produce 800Nm of torque.

He is currently working on an in wheel design electric motor - imagine that on a front or rear wheel drive motorcycle. Sadly Mercedes Benz have bought out Yasa so the design might not be available to all. (YASA - Yoke and Segmented Armature).

https://www.yasa.com/

https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/front-engined-motorcycles-used-to-be-a-thing-ar192609.html
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: K2-K6 on May 25, 2022, 07:19:32 AM
Same here Ted, no interest in electric motion bikes from a very simple just liking it perspective. Guess the real problem is so much the energy storage though rather than ultimate motor force etc.

Some really interesting old engines around though. I looked at a Napier Lion W 12 engine in brooklands museum and tried to see how that worked.

[attachimg=1]

This triple conrod being the key to cylinder arrangement.

It was Napier I believe that originally designed the Deltic diesel engine too

[attachimg=2]

Quite a engineering feat  :)
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 07:52:03 AM
I liked the two stroke diesel engine that Commer designed for their early commercials I think it was a horizontal opposed flat 6 cyl? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3

Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: K2-K6 on May 25, 2022, 08:04:49 AM
Hazy memories as fairly young when we had Corona delivered by a little lorry that may have had that engine Ted

[attachimg=1]

Remember it sounded quite cool, more motorcycle than commercial sound, but didn't know what it was then.

Vehicle was a Karrier and part of Rootes/Comma group I can see by searching now.

We had a bottle of lemonade and one other colour, that's two whole bottles for family of five to drink on Sundays, bloody luxury  ;D
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 09:39:34 AM
Love the schematic model you posted.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 25, 2022, 09:56:32 AM
Corona cherryade was lovely.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: mike the bike on May 25, 2022, 10:17:42 AM
My mum worked as a wages clerk at Corona and got me a temporary job which lasted 9 months.  I worked on the syrup room making up the ingredients that went into the pop. Something like 3100 litres of sugar syrup, 30 litre artificial flavourings, citric acid (which rotted my bike boots) sodium citrate,  sodium benzoate, E211, E110 etc and made up to 6000 litres with water.  The first pop I ever made was Cherryade, which I'm not a fan of.  The fitters used to come in to the syrup room to scrounge the odd litre of syrup in exchange for a handful of stainless nuts and bolts.  Before long, I had replaced most of the fasteners on my 550four with stainless.  Happy times working there.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 25, 2022, 12:18:16 PM
My mum worked as a wages clerk at Corona and got me a temporary job which lasted 9 months.  I worked on the syrup room making up the ingredients that went into the pop. Something like 3100 litres of sugar syrup, 30 litre artificial flavourings, citric acid (which rotted my bike boots) sodium citrate,  sodium benzoate, E211, E110 etc and made up to 6000 litres with water.  The first pop I ever made was Cherryade, which I'm not a fan of.  The fitters used to come in to the syrup room to scrounge the odd litre of syrup in exchange for a handful of stainless nuts and bolts.  Before long, I had replaced most of the fasteners on my 550four with stainless.  Happy times working there.
Loving the trade off! Syrup for nuts.😂😂
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: K2-K6 on May 25, 2022, 12:33:01 PM
Love the schematic model you posted.

Quite a neat representation isn't it, just found it when browsing topic.

Technically a electric vehicle too as all traction was indirect via generating set, using "train petrol" though as energy scource  :)
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 25, 2022, 12:42:28 PM
Ted, I’m going to hazard a guess you’ve never driven a modern EV…. and my next guess, that when you do, & if with an open mind, you’ll be blown away.
And have got very excited about it all….

Just this week have seen 2 YouTubes with Clarkson & Hammond driving the Tesla Model X on separate occasions. Both were in absolute awe of the car; Hammond was on the verge of buying. Clarkson’s clip included a 1/4 mile standing start versus an Audi RS8 - which he won.
You’ve got to bear in mind the boggling ICE experience of these guys, and the inescapable fact that they’re petrol heads.

My missus has a BMW i3 - a wee & un-special town car. It does 0-60 in 7 secs, and with no effort, will always be first away from the lights - you just can’t help yourself. No noise, no kerfuffle… it’s almost embarrassing.

A version of the Tesla S is the fastest accel production car at 0-60 in 2.2 secs, and with a claimed range of 400 miles. Even if it’s 300 I’m impressed…

My CB750 engine is currently in multiple ziplock bags and boxes on garage shelving. As an EV owner my mind is sharpened as to just how heavy and unnecessary it all is; so many moving bloody bits. And it doesn’t have turbo chargers, radiators, pumps… crap.
And that Napier design Nige - cunning… but dear god the complexity.

Appreciate this is going to fall mostly on deaf ears, but honestly, EVs are like iPhones to old Nokias; once proper infrastructure is in place we’ll all wonder how ICEs lasted into the 21st century.

(full disclosure - live in a sunny climate with 13kW of solar panels, haven’t had a fuel bill in 3 yrs. Next service is for a Cabin filter change… last service was the wipers 😂)
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 05:03:06 PM
I've driven quite a few hybrids when I worked for MB Derby plus a stolen/recovered Milk Float back in  the 1970's when I drove one back to the Co-op depot so you have guessed right I have not driven a modern EV - quite simply they are very expensive and beyond my reach pricewise. I estimate I have 6 years of driving left in me at the most so it's unlikely I will ever own a full EV.

I've been a passenger in a BMW i3 a friend recently bought a used one - the earlier one with a small engine that can charge up the battery as he drives - a range extender is it called - great motor but pricey new.

I was impressed with the way the i3 drove, he had the phone app so he could do all sorts of things on his i-phone with it.
That is a car I could live with but I think they have dropped the range extender option on the newer ones. When his battery fails it's scrap as a replacement is more than the car is presently valued at.

If I was 20 years younger then I would probably have a small SUV on a PLP and forget a lifetime of being a petrolhead. Quite frankly I'm  more concerned about the current policy to ban new gas boilers in 2025.  Hopefully like the switch off of FM to make us go to DAB Radio  it will not happen in my lifetime.

PS I still use a Nokia 6310i as the battery lasts a week on one charge - in my Jeep as an emergency phone!



Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: mike the bike on May 25, 2022, 06:49:02 PM
In a previous job I repaired vacuum cleaners.  The lithium batteries in them failed after 4-5 years.  Not too bad with a Dyson,  replacements are £30 but GTech ones are £112.  I had a big bin of duff lithium batteries and looked into recycling them - hopefully for cash.   
They're not recyclable and neither are car batteries.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: andut on May 25, 2022, 08:25:12 PM
I have to agree with you Lobo !

I’m a petrol head who really appreciates a well engineered powertrain and I wanted to dislike driving an electric vehicle, but the reality is hugely impressive - certainly from a performance delivery perspective.  I recently had the opportunity to borrow a Ford Mach E for a week and whilst it had features I didn’t like, and it’s a style of vehicle that leaves me cold, I had to admit that the instant and effortless torque delivery is something an ICE just can’t compete with.

Charging via the public network was a pita and the range anxiety was definitely real for me in the short time I had the car.  It’s expensive and there are questions about future recycling etc, but honestly, after a week of driving, it’s easy to see how they will very quickly become the norm.

Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on May 25, 2022, 09:17:54 PM
I remember when I first had a bike in my teens my attitude was I don't want a car.

Passed car test and rode less but always liked revvy engine. Said I would never have a diesel.

Got a diesel when older and loved relaxed grunt for general driving. At the time my wife had a vtec Civic estate 160+ brake / 7k rpm (for a car!). What a nutter machine. Loved driving it as a treat for short blast but too highly strung for general use.

I had a petrol hybrid Toyota courtesy car recently  for a few weeks. Lovely when driving under electric power but engine assistance harsh and an intrusion.

I think as everyday transport I quite look forward to  an electric car. Quiet and easy to drive.

Or am I just getting old?
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Moorey on May 25, 2022, 09:28:25 PM

  Personally I think Evs will go the same way as Betamax with Hydrogen winning out in the end.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 25, 2022, 09:39:57 PM
I have to agree with you Lobo !

I’m a petrol head who really appreciates a well engineered powertrain and I wanted to dislike driving an electric vehicle, but the reality is hugely impressive - certainly from a performance delivery perspective.  I recently had the opportunity to borrow a Ford Mach E for a week and whilst it had features I didn’t like, and it’s a style of vehicle that leaves me cold, I had to admit that the instant and effortless torque delivery is something an ICE just can’t compete with.

Charging via the public network was a pita and the range anxiety was definitely real for me in the short time I had the car.  It’s expensive and there are questions about future recycling etc, but honestly, after a week of driving, it’s easy to see how they will very quickly become the norm.

The price of an EV for Mr Average is still  way too high imho. Ford Mach E great motor  but prices start at £47k to over £65k even on a PLP that's expensive if you are not a higher rate tax payer. Yes EV's will become the norm as new car buyers will eventually have no option as old ICE vehicles will be driven out of  the market by age, high VEL duty & fuel prices. I suspect the days of private car ownership for many will be consigned to history - probably what the Government wants but most cities are not like London in terms of public transport.

Were painfully short of extra electricity generation as it is so with the shift to EV's, the move away from gas heating to electicity dependent heat pumps things are going to get a lot more expensive. Not sure who is funding the charging infrastructure be it at home, workplace or at the re-branded petrol stations or "Energy Stations". We've shut most of our coal fired electricity generation, our old Nuclear Power Stations are getting long in the tooth with new ones bogged down with delays & massive cost overuns. I read somewhere the UK was self sufficient on Wind & Solar generation for one day in a year.

Every cordless power tool I have ever owned has after 4 or 5 years failed or lost it's ability to work the tool - it was cheaper to buy a complete new tool than a new battery when my last drill packed up. I run a 17 year old Jeep I cannot see any electric car having a battery that will last that long. If there was some sort of standard for battery voltage and fitting that might help bring down the cost of a replacement but clearly most manufacturers do their own thing.

There have been quite a few accounts of hybrids suffering from battery failure when out of warranty - costs vary from  £8k upwards to buy a replacement battery! Used EV's  do not look like a good buy when they are 5 years old - the're cheap for a reason.We need to re-think our manufacturing & transport policy as we seem quite happy to ship goods from the other side of the world then have a HGV chugg them up our motorways for items that could be made here in the UK.

This is a party political statement on behalf of the Retired, Grumpy, Old Gits  Party who have never had it so good.


Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 25, 2022, 09:56:47 PM
gotta love a Deltic noise,  possibly the best 'fire breathing start up' on any of the fleet that BR ran. My big  brother is 11 years older than me and used to take me down the goods yard and sidings at york on a Saturday morning so he could jot some numbers down as was the craze then and I could be an amazed 6 year old being asked regularly into the cab to work the glow plugs and undertake menial tasks that make a 6 year old freel terribly important. I was probably pressing the window washers  but it made my day every weekend if we were there in time ;D
I remember it was always so dramatic in the winter when the thick smoke would crackle and a 7 foot rod of orange flame would intermittantly leap out of the pipes like two angry snorts from a dragon out into the freezing air, as a young lad, I was totally in awe of the drivers and their space age machines ........As all small boys should be :D
..I was sold, trains were cool but to be fair, that was before my brothers mate, 'Telf'  wheelied his goldwing up passed Coppice Swimming pool to impress the girls and that was it for me, at 12 I had an XL185 or dubias reputation to blat round my mates farm on.  Those were the days!
With the two windows at the front on the Dellie's I always thought they had a happy face but squinted their eyes against the wind ;D ;D ;D
Still get the goose bumps when I hear one take off from the station an the diesel days we go to now and again, those and the warship class locos' and the monsterously powerful class 54's...........awesome!

A remarkable piece of engineering that engine and a hugely powerful one.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: MCTID on May 25, 2022, 10:01:39 PM
My Son in Law owns a Garage which specialises in Fleet Maintenance and up market German Cars.......he's a smart bloke and he's really into Engine Management Systems....he thrives on problems in this field and just loves taking on and solving the difficult jobs that the Main Dealers can't or won't take on because their hourly rates just won't justify what they would need to charge their Customers - for something which should never have been a problem in the first place ! Some Owners have so many major problems that they vow never to buy another BMW, Merc, Audi or Porsche ever again ! It's sometimes that bad.....but I suppose when you have paid 50K + for a swanky car, the very least you expect it to do is to start first time, every time and to run reliably !

He's getting more into Servicing EV's as his bread and butter line is Fleet Cars and Vans, but he just shakes his head when he talks about the cheapness and ease of Hydrogen Powered Vehicles........he's convinced it's just a conspiracy to deliberately hold back the development of Hydrogen Powered Vehicles as there is a lot more money to be made (screwed) out of EV's.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 25, 2022, 11:36:42 PM
It’ll be interesting to see which wins out in the Hydrogen versus battery race. My money’s on batteries; I suspect we’re on the cusp of some amazing electrical storage solutions.

One really exciting plus for battery EVs is the option to reverse power your home… ie the solar charges your car through the day, and your EV powers the house through the night. This is already happening, and in my case would be a great option. Next EV perhaps?

Saw a YouTube on the two technologies; the summation was that Hydrogen powered vehicles were no where near as efficient overall, ie if you factor in the manufacture of Hydrogen, transport, storage… and then conversion to wheels.

I’d have to agree with you MCTID; BMW Dealerships leave a lot to be desired - they really are too far up their own wotsits.  But, our i3, and it’s beautiful engineering leave me well impressed. Again on YouTube, I saw a video of some big newish ICE BMW with an issue… the mechanic spent a day tearing it down to access a wee component within the engine. Horrific, unbelievable… as this mountain of bloody bits slowly grew on his shop floor for a tuppenny part. (Basically, too much motor crammed into too little space.)
You’re son in law is ahead of the game - good stuff. This said, given what I see of the reliability and maintenance of our EV, I do wonder how future service facilities will make a living. I paid the BMW Dealership about £300 for 5 years parts and labour on our i3 - it’s a rip off. I’m learning…. in real life the car simply needs the odd wiper, brake fluid, cabin filter change. Interestingly it’ll likely never need new brake pads as 95% of braking is regenerative.

Mike - the battery is warranted for 8 years, at which point it’s guaranteed not to be below 80% (?) of original storage capability. I’d liken that to petrol engines becoming less efficient with age. To my knowledge, EV Batteries don’t ever fail hard, but rather just slowly get more and more ‘tired’. In difference to (eg) Dyson batteries, they are never ‘fully’ charged / discharged - software management sees to this to prolong longevity. There are plenty of stories around of 8yo EVS still performing very well, with every indication of years left in them. I did once read a proposal that you screw the old battery to your house at the end…. even then it’d far out perform a Tesla Powerwall!


Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 26, 2022, 12:35:06 AM
I estimate I have 6 years of driving left in me at the most so it's unlikely I will ever own a full EV.

Don’t say that Ted. At 88yo my dad wanted a new Honda Jazz. “Will this be your last car Dad?”, I asked. 
“I don’t know Si… never say never.”

So we went to the dealership, and had a good poke around one; a deal was done & they agreed to deliver it personally a few days later…

The suited salesman duly arrived in the new Jazz, with paperworks in his hand. My dad was on the driveway pop riveting a gazebo, I was in the garage taking the K2 tyre off the wheel, and my sister was covered in grease kindly cleaning the chain. His face was a picture.
My dad, vertically challenged in his old age, asked the salesman whether the seat tracks could be raised? He wasn’t sure. “Well, how many bolts secure it to the floor?”, asked my dad. Again, unsure. Dad wasn’t impressed & got down to have a count / look see… the guy looked embarrassed.
Shortly they began the paperworks, and dad was onto him about the warranty and serving costs. He wasn’t happy, and said Honda could do better. The salesman altered the contract…

30 minutes later, as he left, the Honda guy sidled up to me and commented; “Amazing old gent, I’ve never been mauled by an octogenarian before!”
😂😂😂
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 26, 2022, 08:32:02 AM
I estimate I have 6 years of driving left in me at the most so it's unlikely I will ever own a full EV.

Don’t say that Ted. At 88yo my dad wanted a new Honda Jazz. “Will this be your last car Dad?”, I asked. 
“I don’t know Si… never say never.”

So we went to the dealership, and had a good poke around one; a deal was done & they agreed to deliver it personally a few days later…

The suited salesman duly arrived in the new Jazz, with paperworks in his hand. My dad was on the driveway pop riveting a gazebo, I was in the garage taking the K2 tyre off the wheel, and my sister was covered in grease kindly cleaning the chain. His face was a picture.
My dad, vertically challenged in his old age, asked the salesman whether the seat tracks could be raised? He wasn’t sure. “Well, how many bolts secure it to the floor?”, asked my dad. Again, unsure. Dad wasn’t impressed & got down to have a count / look see… the guy looked embarrassed.
Shortly they began the paperworks, and dad was onto him about the warranty and serving costs. He wasn’t happy, and said Honda could do better. The salesman altered the contract…

30 minutes later, as he left, the Honda guy sidled up to me and commented; “Amazing old gent, I’ve never been mauled by an octogenarian before!”
😂😂😂

Wow Lobo that's an amazing narrative about your Dad & the Honda Jazz.

It triggered a memory for me from when I worked in the car trade back in 1973/4 I was a salesman at an Opel & Audi dealership running a demonstrator that back then was an untaxed perk of the job as was the free petrol that came with it.

A customer sought me out interested in buying our Opel Kadette demonstrator it was a special edition with Rostyle wheels etc launched as a result of the UK economy being in the doldrums post miners strikes, fuel crisis, power workers strike 4 day week etc, etc.

He was a recently retired School Teacher (65ish) looking to buy his "Last ever car" he bought the Kadette Demonstrator, even though they  were very good on under body protection he insisted on buying an aftermarket rust proofing treatment "Endrust" with a 10 year warranty - the car was an M registration.

I left the trade in 1979 I was delighted to see the car occasionally in Derby being driven by the same owner up until around the early 1990's albeit by then starting to show it's age.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 26, 2022, 12:12:33 PM
Never had a fuel bill? who paid for the 13k of solar panels Lobo?

That's not a dig, it's just that you have to pay through the nose to get them, they only last so long and then you've got to pay again, so it's like buying petrol, it's a never ending commitment.

Saying that, if I could afford it I'd have some panels on my roof but at my age I can't justify the cost versus the amount of time I'd get use out of them before kicking the bucket.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Sesman on May 26, 2022, 12:26:59 PM
PV. A 1000 volt fire risk. The firemen can’t isolate the PV output, so won’t go on the roof to put your fire out.

The PV will probably give 20years service with maintenance, but the inverters are only good for 3-5 years depending on quality.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: mike the bike on May 26, 2022, 12:52:44 PM
I hope so.  I wouldn't mind a hydrogen EV but lithium is an ecological nightmare on a par with TEL and CFCs
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: philward on May 26, 2022, 09:26:15 PM
I estimate I have 6 years of driving left in me at the most so it's unlikely I will ever own a full EV.

I was recently in my local with my wife and I could hear a conversation going on behind me about A10's, A7's, Rockets, high comp pistons, etc that made my ears prick up. When I turned round it was a father (turned out in his mid eighties) and son who had loads of BSA's and a few modern bikes. long story short, I ended up butting into the conversation and the old guy told me he still rides to Cornwall (from Wigan) a few times a year (on his modern Triumph). When I commented that he was a better man than I was (at 67), he said 'I don't do it in one go anymore! I stop half way for a butty break!. I suppose if you have your health, its all in the mind. He had 7 Beeza's inc a 1920's Sloper ny the way. (he didn't loke Jap bikes).
My missus is panicking if I'm out for more than an hour!

Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 26, 2022, 10:09:57 PM
Ken, Sesman.

The 40 panels attracted a healthy govt subsidy, we paid $20K for 40 panels. Here in QLD (tho’ not in the UK anymore I believe) there is a useful feed-in tariff, meaning the energy supplier pays us for the surplus energy. It gives us abouts $1000pa back into our hands, ie we never have a bill.
Add to this we’re saving $800 per quarter in ‘no bills’ - or $3000pa.
What all this means is that the panels are ‘cost free’ at the 7 year point, in their 20 year life. We then have 13 years of simple credit…. at todays rates this is getting on for $50k.
And in all the above, I have not factored in the free motoring.

Sesman. Why on earth would you think the firemen could not isolate the PV array?? By law they have to, and on all houses (here anyways) there’s big stickers on the switch box warning them, with an isolation switch inside. We bought a top quality German Fronius Inverter, which I bloody hope will last a lot longer than you suggest!
That said, I suspect we will be updating it at some point, as I’m interested in adding a battery…. which at this point in time, is still not financially viable. But soon…?
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 26, 2022, 10:18:26 PM
Yeah we have a scarce commodity here in Pome'y land its known as weather as opposed n
to a climate. lol😁😁😁
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 26, 2022, 11:32:10 PM
If it’s like the UK the feed in tariff will end up getting scrapped as it’s going to cost them too much. The shame is that as it’s the government and not a private company paying these tariffs they’ll be nothing you can do if they end them. Contract law doesn’t seem to apply to governments, prime example of that is the increase in retirement age, why that wasn’t challenged legally as it’s a clear breach of the contract we all made with the government I’ll never know.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Sesman on May 27, 2022, 12:10:07 AM
Not in the uk, mate.They let it burn…it’s the law. Health and safety…
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2022, 07:11:29 AM
If it’s like the UK the feed in tariff will end up getting scrapped as it’s going to cost them too much. The shame is that as it’s the government and not a private company paying these tariffs they’ll be nothing you can do if they end them. Contract law doesn’t seem to apply to governments, prime example of that is the increase in retirement age, why that wasn’t challenged legally as it’s a clear breach of the contract we all made with the government I’ll never know.

Wendy's OAP was moved from 60 then to 64 yrs 9 months then finally to 66 yrs the Waspi case failed in the Appeal Courts. The original contract must have been written in such a way that HMG could freely move the goal posts as they have yet again to 68 yrs by 2037-39.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Sesman on May 27, 2022, 07:21:38 AM
Ken, Sesman.

The 40 panels attracted a healthy govt subsidy, we paid $20K for 40 panels. Here in QLD (tho’ not in the UK anymore I believe) there is a useful feed-in tariff, meaning the energy supplier pays us for the surplus energy. It gives us abouts $1000pa back into our hands, ie we never have a bill.
Add to this we’re saving $800 per quarter in ‘no bills’ - or $3000pa.
What all this means is that the panels are ‘cost free’ at the 7 year point, in their 20 year life. We then have 13 years of simple credit…. at todays rates this is getting on for $50k.
And in all the above, I have not factored in the free motoring.

Sesman. Why on earth would you think the firemen could not isolate the PV array?? By law they have to, and on all houses (here anyways) there’s big stickers on the switch box warning them, with an isolation switch inside. We bought a top quality German Fronius Inverter, which I bloody hope will last a lot longer than you suggest!
That said, I suspect we will be updating it at some point, as I’m interested in adding a battery…. which at this point in time, is still not financially viable. But soon…?

Typical payback in the UK is around 20years. We don’t have your sun hours. However using net present value and the financials are much bleaker. Good luck with your inverter, the life is very much dependent on the installation average daily ambient temperature, which’s normally around 20deg C. I’m afraid the DC input and AC output switch disconnectors simply isolate the invertor, the PV is still ‘live’ while it’s receiving light.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Sesman on May 27, 2022, 07:25:07 AM
There you go….Zurich insurers report.

https://www.zurich.co.uk/news-and-insight/fire-risks-how-safe-are-solar-panels
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 27, 2022, 09:03:20 AM
Blimey. I stand corrected wrt UK installations: and can barely believe isolation switches are not mandatory and standardised as to where to find them.
It begs the obvious question as to how a fire brigade, on an especially high and flat roof, can know whether or not a PV array is up there? Nuts.

Ken, I bloody agree wrt feed-in tariff; it’s literally daylight robbery that the energy providers don’t pay the supplier - ie us in this case. I don’t know how they get away with it, and suspect it’ll be here (Oz) soon. Given how keen Boris is on ‘green’ you’d think he’d whip these providers into line to encourage Joe Public to fit arrays.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Sesman on May 27, 2022, 10:32:20 AM
I know…it’s crazy. Back in 2014 the German fire brigade adopted a non-attendance and intervention policy for domestic fires involving PV.They simply protected adjacent properties. Zurich even withdrew house insurance for properties with PV….for a while at least. We do have switch disconnectors for the DC input and AC output, but of course the PV is still ‘live’ on the incoming side of the DC switch while the sun shines. Some PV incorporates the inverter on each panel, which incorporates overcurrent protection.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 27, 2022, 11:32:43 AM
Wouldn't spraying foam on the panels cover them so they can't get sunlight?
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 27, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Blanket of foam really only works on a level surface and a contained area. Like your way of thinking Ken.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 27, 2022, 02:22:14 PM
How about expanding foam, sticks like hell to stuff, I know as it's hard to get it off  ;D ;D

They could have a fire extinguisher full of it, up on a ladder and just spray it onto the roof, plus there are fire retardant types as well.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 27, 2022, 05:16:47 PM
Nowadays with risk assessments there probably not even allowed up a ladder. We used to walk along ridges and stand on chimney stacks back in the day.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2022, 05:41:23 PM
I was shocked when we had a Sky Dish fitted - the bloke was not allowed to attach it on our chimney so he fitted it to a dorma side wall a heady 13 or so feet high - he drilled safety eyes in our wall to secure the ladder & attach a line!
I would climb onto the flat roof then walk up the slope in my trainers to  straddle the roof apex when repacing storm damaged ridge tiles - tbh that was 20 years ago when I could get my leg over the apex without my hip locking up.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 27, 2022, 11:20:30 PM
I was shocked when we had a Sky Dish fitted - the bloke was not allowed to attach it on our chimney so he fitted it to a dorma side wall a heady 13 or so feet high - he drilled safety eyes in our wall to secure the ladder & attach a line!
I would climb onto the flat roof then walk up the slope in my trainers to  straddle the roof apex when repacing storm damaged ridge tiles - tbh that was 20 years ago when I could get my leg over the apex without my hip locking up.
😂😂😂
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: mike the bike on May 28, 2022, 10:31:47 AM
I did a kitchen refit in a Fire Station and was surprised to find they don't use a pole to slide down, using the stairs instead.  I suggested using a slide, like kids use.  A lot safer than running down the stairs and more fun.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 28, 2022, 11:13:50 PM
Back to Ted’s starter topic, the landlord from our local pub, recently had a ride on a demonstrator Live Wire Harley EV. He described it as bloody incredible, with the linear torque just wanting to pull his arms out of their sockets, accompanied by an uncanny lack of noise.

I’ll admit an EV bike intrigues me, and honestly I’d like one when the range becomes a useful 150 miles. I did consider the Harley briefly, but am put off in that it only offers Type 1 or Type 3 charging. The first is extremely slow (via your 13A home socket) and the Type 3 a ‘commercial’ fast charge which homes are unlikely to have.
I’ve Type 2 charging in our house (3 phase wired)…. the HD wouldn’t accept this…. meaning a 12-16 hr wait between rides 🙁.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 29, 2022, 10:15:40 AM
Back to Ted’s starter topic, the landlord from our local pub, recently had a ride on a demonstrator Live Wire Harley EV. He described it as bloody incredible, with the linear torque just wanting to pull his arms out of their sockets, accompanied by an uncanny lack of noise.

I’ll admit an EV bike intrigues me, and honestly I’d like one when the range becomes a useful 150 miles. I did consider the Harley briefly, but am put off in that it only offers Type 1 or Type 3 charging. The first is extremely slow (via your 13A home socket) and the Type 3 a ‘commercial’ fast charge which homes are unlikely to have.
I’ve Type 2 charging in our house (3 phase wired)…. the HD wouldn’t accept this…. meaning a 12-16 hr wait between rides 🙁.

You have highlighted the lack of uniformity in the production of what are still early days in EV production  - no commonality in charging systems, electric motor or battery voltages.

I suspect that in another 10 years todays EVs will be compared to a Vintage ICE car with  Tiller steering.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Lobo on May 30, 2022, 08:29:14 AM
😂 Tiller steering.

It’s not so much lack of uniformity, but rather availability of infrastructure. Homes are generally not wired for the kind of power an EV needs for charging within a reasonable time; even using 3 phase (not common in the UK) we need 5 hrs for our small car (ie Type 2 charging). I agree that I can’t see any kind of future where home superchargers exist (ie 30 mins for a useful charge) - but then again, why would you need that?
I don’t know why HD only offer two rates, tho’ certainly they’ve covered all bases in giving Type 1.

One sobering realisation I muse myself with is that ALL of our 40 solar panels would be needed to power the car down the motorway …. as their combined output and car consumption is approx 13kW! Wow, solar powered cars are going to be a long way off 😂.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Oddjob on May 30, 2022, 01:30:11 PM
We'd all be stood at the side of the road with solar cars in the UK, the sun never shines long enough to get anywhere.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: taysidedragon on May 30, 2022, 02:08:25 PM
We'd all be stood at the side of the road with solar cars in the UK, the sun never shines long enough to get anywhere.

Rain power?
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: K2-K6 on June 08, 2022, 10:39:31 AM
It appears to policymakers that there could be one solution that will solve all situations, in reality that's likely never going to be the case.

https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

Interesting balanced overview and consideration of more nuanced approach.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: Laverda Dave on June 09, 2022, 07:36:55 PM
It appears to policymakers that there could be one solution that will solve all situations, in reality that's likely never going to be the case.

https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

Interesting balanced overview and consideration of more nuanced approach.

That was a very interesting watch Nigel. EV's are a blind alley with the present technology available and lack of real investment in the infrastructure required to charge them.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 11, 2022, 02:17:24 PM
It appears to policymakers that there could be one solution that will solve all situations, in reality that's likely never going to be the case.

https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

Interesting balanced overview and consideration of more nuanced approach.

That was a very interesting watch Nigel. EV's are a blind alley with the present technology available and lack of real investment in the infrastructure required to charge them.

Like the end of the road for gas boilers the UK Govt seems hell bent on forcing us to have these so called enviromentally better  alternatives. Hope it ends up like the end of FM with the replacement Dab timetable.
Title: Re: Electric Bikes - the future might be Tim Woolmers Yasa technology.
Post by: K2-K6 on July 07, 2022, 08:03:56 AM
https://youtu.be/N-yALPEpV4w

Another view to consider.
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