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SOHC.co.uk Forums => The Black Bomber Board => Topic started by: MrDavo on November 16, 2017, 07:29:31 PM

Title: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 16, 2017, 07:29:31 PM
Well seeing as we now have a board for all things Bomberage, the 1969 CL450 I just bought might as well have a thread....

As bought on eBay:

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvyrvsRH/s-l1604.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzMdkwyV/s-l1611.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxC2Fj1N/s-l1608.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQcBmBdY/s-l1610.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzzvcGLj/s-l1602.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YVj2Spx/s-l1601.jpg)

The bike turned up this afternoon, with a receipt and NOVA certificate. Mark said Summerbud was a very slick operation - 'which bike?' - wheeled into van, swap money and paperwork, thankyou, next...

(https://s5.postimg.cc/dn1nw405j/IMG_2140.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/c8037eehz/IMG_2141.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/79cksvq4n/IMG_2142.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/672eacmqv/IMG_2143.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/yl7tufcxj/IMG_2144.jpg)

No nasty suprises, other than some crash damage to the very back of the mudguard that if not hidden by a numberplate / mudflap could be trimmed off. What I feared was an acid burn to the guard's chrome started to come off with solvol and elbow grease, so a run of spilled grey paint then, phew!

A small scratch to the top of the front mudguard, other than that it is like brand new, same with the rims. OEM Japanese Dunlops, very original finish to some of the alloy, but very yellowed laquer. The shocks look original, and work.

Clean oil, compression, O/S air filter is AWOL, a shame cos they are expensive (cleanable type). I'm thinking I might buy a pair though, as if one is new and one is ancient it wont help getting the carburation right. The twistgrip is connected and moves both carbs smoothly, the clutch frees off when you pull the lever when it's in gear.

The rear heatshield is a bit scratched, I will see what the options are for getting it chromed if I could polish the scratches out. The earlier heatshield would not fit this later exhaust system, which is almost like brand new, so is staying, Uli, how much do you want for the new rear heatshield you have?

Scratching and shell damage to the top of the headlamp, incorrect speedo and front brake lever, plus the mudguard damage at the rear and front top, point to it having been wheelied right over, as well as explaining the stupid low indicated mileage if it got a new speedo out of it on an insurance claim. Both clocks are properly fitted, but from looking at photos and parts lists the tacho is the correct one, the bezel is wrong on the speedo. I could live with the non matching speedo, but if I came across the correct one I would be temped to buy it and get Marcel to fettle it, assuming he deals with these twin cylinder abominations.

My first purchase came today, the new grey front brake cable. Now where in hell do I get the round tank badges, they seem to be made from unobtanium?

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 17, 2017, 12:07:55 AM
I’m confused after looking at gauges on eBay - the plastic glass on the tacho is higher than the instrument, the rim around the speedo is higher than the glass - which is right?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on November 17, 2017, 01:03:12 AM
The plastic face sitting proud of the gauge body is correct - the body of the gauge should be plastic as well (very similar to 750 K0 construction). So the tacho is the original item..
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 17, 2017, 09:56:36 AM
Bugger. Add the speedo to the list of things I want then.

I note an OEM head gasket is as much as a whole pattern gasket set. Is this another case, like the CB750, where I’d be better using a real Honda gasket to avoid later leaks? I think my 750 head gasket (from CMS) cost twice the whole set, but is absolutely dry.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 18, 2017, 12:49:26 PM
If the plastic gauges are similar to the CB350K0 I have lots  ;)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on November 19, 2017, 05:52:54 PM
Are you planning on doing a full nut and bolt restoration?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 20, 2017, 12:44:45 PM
Quote
Are you planning on doing a full nut and bolt restoration?

Not in the OCD 'replace / refurbish anything that doesn't look brand new and check every bolt head has the correct symbol' way that I approached the CB750, more a 'sympathetic restoration', Roy.

I have realised I can't be too picky, although I wanted a bike with the K1 tank and side panels, checking out my VIN, CL450-1018xxx its actually a K2, it should have the tank with a white 'Honda' emblem, gold stripe  and the big gold triangular badges on the side panels. If the bodywork was as good as the chrome I reckon its been used to tart up another bike. It is a November 1969 bike though, so I reckon I'll get away with it, I'll also use an early seat, mine is the K2 version with pleats.

I think I'll go for candy blue, when I get my 750 stuff back from Menno I can use the box again to send him the bodywork. The fuel that came out of the tank was filthy, and it cant have run too well with a petcock filter full of mud. Better that than dry and rusty though.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5z1wbiap3/IMG_2162.jpg)

Ash, that's an impressive clock mountain there, I reckon the speedo gearing may be different on the 350 though, they are all a different part number to the 450 versions. Certainly the CB350 had an 18" front wheel, CLs were 19".

Any road up, the late speedo I have looks NOS, given that I'm not being over picky, before I saw your post I  ordered a used later tacho to match it to give me a matching pair, I hope, even if not strictly right they should look good. I do need a set of bars and that cable guide that annoys me when I see it on a CB750, I didn't realise it was a CL part. The bars are the same as a CL350 amd SL350 though, you don't have a set do you Ash? There are plenty in the States, but the postage is far more than the part cost, they can't be the easiest (or lightest) thing to post.

My headlamp shell is broken around the edge, but I found a NOS one on eBay Australia that will arrive one day.

I pulled the motor yesterday, the plating on the exhaust is almost as good where you can't see it, and looking at the carbs its hard to beleive they are nearly 50 years old! They have that 'mother of pearl' effect that has sadly been lost on my CB750.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ptnxxmxmf/IMG_2170.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vtbp1hl1j/IMG_2173.jpg)

At some stage the rear brake lever has been bent and someone has knocked it back to vaguely where it ahould be by beating seven bells out of it with a big hammer, all the marks are still there.

I've always said that the trouble with 'barn finds' is that as well as putting right the ravages of time, you still have to fix whatever fault that made Bubba put it in the barn in the first place. I reckon with my bike he didn't get so far, due to the lack of a decent 12mm socket - one of the super tight head steady nuts was completely rounded, the rest of the engine bolts were completely untouched, or at least undamaged.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/co8frqe3b/IMG_2175.jpg)

I cut the bugger off, I found that using an angle grinder very close to the wiring loom helps one concentrate.

He'd clearly never heard of JIS, most crossheads that come out for servicing are chewed beyond belief, some may have to be drilled out, and he had been in the clutch cover, or a real mechanic had, as all the screws are allen heads there. My guess is shagged gear selectors may have stopped the bike, they are known for it, and it's engine out and cases split to fix it - when he failed at the first hurdle in getting the motor out, he just gave up and got another toy.

Wriggling the motor out of the frame was a right PITA, probably there is a knack to it, I should have watched a Youtube video first, as it was we struggled (I borrowed my large mate Leigh, a 6'7" human engine hoist and veteran of CB750 and Harley engine lifts in the past).

Graham will be disappointed to find out I don't need a new engine stand, as it almost fits in the CB750 one, certainly enough to make it 'strong and stable' (Copyright T. May) enough to work on.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mljgkstev/IMG_2179.jpg)






Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on November 20, 2017, 02:03:33 PM
Great start there and looks a really solid basis to rennovate...good work.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MCTID on November 20, 2017, 03:55:30 PM
My thoughts as well.........although it's sometimes really surprising how well some of these old bikes have stood up to the ravages of 40 years of sitting in sh1te. 

Looking forward to seeing all the good (and bad) bits of this rebuild.

Bubba (and his mates) didn't take too well to Metric and JIS fixings did they ! but 'Nils carborundum bast*rdum' always prevails in the end.

Good luck and please post plenty of pics as you progress.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 21, 2017, 12:04:54 PM
Thanks for your comments, I only got an hour in the garage last night, I was hoping to get the head off but stopped when I realised my chain splitter hadn't a hope in hell of getting in the space available.

I started by taking the cam covers off, the points were as new (though the ones on the right don't seem to meet as square as you'd like), but numb nuts here took the inlet cover off with a bit of a struggle before realising I'd just pulled a camshaft bearing, and the cam was now cocked at a jaunty angle with one of the valves open! I hope I haven't bent a valve already, time will tell, anyway I put the cover back on so I can turn the engine over without damaging anything (else?).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6rrzqurmf/IMG_2181.jpg)

Like many other things, the cams were in remarkably good condition. As I turned the motor, fresh oil ran down the lobe of the r/h exhaust cam, so there is still pressure. (I haven't dropped the oil yet).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t3psk8yg7/IMG_2183.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/xcuimf9fb/IMG_2186.jpg)

I peered in through the plugholes, on the up side what I saw of the valves was good, nice seating surfaces, but now I am more anxious to get the head off, as all is not well with the right hand piston crown - not something I could get a photo of, but I can see multiple silver marks in the black carbon, either someone poking the piston with a pointy thing through the plughole (but why?) or detonation - maybe a consequence of running the bike with a fuel filter full of mud! While the left hand carb had crystals of crud from long evaporated petrol, the right hand side float bowl was clean and bone dry.

I am now worried by those photos of mullahed 350 heads we've seen on here recently, I don't mind shelling out for a new piston or a rebore, but please don't let the head be a mess..  :( Bubba was clearly after something with his ill fitting tool kit, before he slung the bike in a corner and walked away forever.

I found the soft link, and when it was on the position in the photos the cams were lined up with their timing marks.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4ag8jluvb/IMG_2187.jpg)

I will be fitting a new chain, from later reading on the twins forum, it seems I will be OK grinding the pin ends and drifting the link out - I will be cleaning everything anyway but I'll shove a load of paper or cloth into the cam tunnel to catch the swarf.

Feck knows what I'll use to re rivet the new chain but that's a long way down the thread from here.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on November 22, 2017, 08:14:12 AM
Do you have a photo of the original clocks. I may have a set in a box somewhere. Now that's going to be a search and a half, but at least if I have a picture of what i'm looking for it will help. Cheers.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 22, 2017, 12:06:42 PM
Hi Roy, don't worry about it for now, I have an alloy and glass tacho on the way from Canada to match the speedo, which is VGC, I reckon the original plastic speedo may have got broken and replaced when Bubba dropped it. I prefer the quality of the later ones, which match whats on my CB750K1. If I was going to show the bike I might think differently, but then I'd be after a K2 tank as well.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mj2r1timf/s-l1606.jpg)

You can also see the broken headlamp shell, apparently people dont realise you have to turn the rim to free it once the screws are out.

Anyway, I've owned this thing a whole week now, and the curiosity to find out what's inside was too much to bear.....

I got the head and barrels off last night, whatever mileage its really done, it's can't be a lot, and I'm fairly confident I'm the first in there, which means the internals last saw the light of day in Japan, when I was going to school on the bus, in shorts and a cap (which I was always getting in trouble for not wearing).

I was worrying I'd be in a world of stuck on gaskets and scraping and prising again, but it came apart very easily, maybe the CB750 was assembled using glue.

The first challenge was to remove the cover over the alternator rotor, so I could get a socket on the end of the crank to turn the engine over, Bubba had completely butchered the screws.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ernww59tj/IMG_2176.jpg)

Luckily his lack of adequate tools meant that the screws weren't that tight in the first place, a couple of carefull taps with a small chisel losened them enough to get them out with a small flat screwdriver! If anyone knows where I can get an ungouged early type cover (I think CB450 is the same) let me know.

The next obstacle was grinding the pins off the soft link on the cam chain, I removed the tensioner and used lockwire attched to the kickstart to hold it clear, to give me some room without the use of fingers. I also bunged all the orices up with paper to catch any swarf.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/s4mgl4cg7/IMG_2188.jpg)

No room to safely use the angle grinder, just as well I think, I found a small grindstone that fitted in my cordless drill instead. That nearly did the trick, I had to finish with a file when the stone broke - as it didn't hit me in the face or bounce off the 911 bonnet there was no health and safety issue at all.  ::) Luckily the drill wasn't going very fast when it happened.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvhqj1wd3/IMG_2189.jpg)

A tap on the pin end with a small punch and the link came apart, then just undo the nuts on the head studs. Inside the head, all looks well:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/s4mgl6pbr/IMG_2197.jpg)

I took the inlet cam out, hardly any sign of wear:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5sonrsxxj/IMG_2199.jpg)

It must have been stored a long time with a valve open on the right hand side, that air filter was AWOL too,  what I thought was piston damage when I shone a torch down the plug hole turned out to be the carbon going a bit mouldy. There was some rust on the rings in there too but not loads, whipping the barrels off showed the middle ring was stuck, I've just sprayed it all with easing oil and left it to penetrate for now.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lqxdhwa53/IMG_2194.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/cj5517xxz/IMG_2203.jpg)

The left pot must've had both valves shut, it was pretty pristine.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/le5zbpzl3/IMG_2193.jpg)

No lip at all in the bores, I reckon they'll clean up fine. A bit of a watermark where the rings rusted though.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/535vfg53r/IMG_2200.jpg)

Finally the pistons themselves, very little wear to the skirts at the front:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4qeh98k93/IMG_2195.jpg)

But nasty scuffs at the back, whether caused by poor oil maintainance, abuse from cold (my guess) or just turning it over with crud in the bores rather than oil I don't know. However I reckon I can reuse them, its the ring seal and bore that really counts.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/iwu84hajr/IMG_2196.jpg)

I can't feel any play in the small or big ends, which is a blessing. After the dramas I had with the barrel studs in the 750, despite being told to leave them alone, this time I'll leave these in if I can.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2017, 03:23:58 PM
Doesn't looks like it's done many miles at all by the markings within their engine.

Technically it's a very interesting engine and will worth watching to see how you get on with it.

Out of interest,  what spark plugs are in it?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 22, 2017, 04:23:05 PM
Quote
Out of interest,  what spark plugs are in it?

NGK B8E S plugs, marked as 'Assembled in USA from Japanese Parts' - at first I thought they were newer because the plating hasn't gone dull at all, but after looking in the float bowls I am sure noone has tried to get it running in recent years.

I was tempted to chuck a battery and fresh fuel in, and have a go, but decided I could do more harm than good. Besides until I get a pair of fresh air cleaners (ordered), the carburation would have been up the swanee.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2017, 06:36:55 PM
It doesn't look like you've much to sort out engine wise,  probably a good call not to start it with that corrosion on rings and bore one side.

Like that I think the components are recoverable with care as they don't appear to be damaged, If the bores will clean up without leaving any real marks it probably wouldn't give any issues.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 24, 2017, 03:53:42 PM
Thanks for that, I may have found a source for replica 80mm tank badges complete with '450' underneath, but the guy is away until December 8, we have exchanged emails.

The bodywork looks lovely - did Menno restore the side panel badges?, I  thought they were stickers until I looked at mine (which are quite faded) closely. The silver would be the tricky part I guess, it looks like a chrome finish.

Here's a link to a nice picture of a finished one in blue:

http://www.livablelandscape.org/CYCLES/450CLadds.htm

Menno, if you're reading this, don't throw the candy blue paint away, you're going to need some more, once I get my CB750 stuff back. :)

I may have to try and polish the nasty scratch out of my stator cover, though I fear its as deep as the lettering. Some chancer in the US seems to have bought them all up so he can bang them out polished at $300 a pop, the only other early style ones for sale are FUBAR, or at least as badly scratched as mine  >:( If anyone has one (the early CB450 and bomber are the same) let me know.


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 27, 2017, 04:10:44 PM
Remember I said:

Quote
My guess is shagged gear selectors may have stopped the bike, they are known for it, and it's engine out and cases split to fix it - when he failed at the first hurdle in getting the motor out, he just gave up and got another toy.

I found out for sure what caused the bike to be retired so early on when I dropped the oil.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7odqs5k4n/IMG_2212.jpg)

At first I thought it was the 4x8mm dowel that holds the selector cage to the drum, but as it measures at 4x8.4mm, and is dull with a small rough patch at one end I now think its one of the selector fork pins, broken at the groove for the circlip. I may yet sieve the oil to look for the rest, it depends what I find when I get the cases split.

It explains why the fault persisted despite the fact that the clutch cover has been off (all allen screws, replacing the originals he will have inevitably butchered), you can get at the selector mechanism to repair it, but not the forks and drum, you need to split the cases for that, and as we've seen, he failed at the first head steady nut.

I spent a lot of yesterday cleaning mud and grit out of the area aroung the drive sprocket, and oily crud off the area around the starter motor. I decided I might as well get things clean before the cases were split.

The screws on the alternator  cover and neutral switch were untouched and very tight, luckily I have an impact driver, unlike Bubbah.

I think I may have to join the Hondatwins forum, as someone there is asking about original case finishes on the CL450. As mine seems to be such a timewarp, I think I can help.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9sy3t916v/IMG_2214.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/4hj78j7ef/IMG_2213.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/aigw5njqv/IMG_2216.jpg)

Also I filled the combustion chambers with petrol, and watched it leak out of the rhs exhaust valve, my guess is that as this was the side with rusty rings (now freed and polished) that this valve was left open for years and has a rusty seat. Theres a mullahed crosshead still between me and geting a cam holder off though.

The starter was fine inside, little wear to the brushes, I just cleaned the commutator and put it back together.

Last thing before I packed up I got the clutch cover off. I'm bemused by instructions to get the filter out by removing the 6mm bolt and screwing in an 8mm one, as (a) hows that going to work in the same hole? and (b) there was no bolt there at all. Can anyone shed light as my filter doesn't want to come out (I have removed the big circlip).

(https://s5.postimg.cc/82f2r9yxz/IMG_2218.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hffnvm7wn/IMG_2219.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 27, 2017, 06:03:15 PM
I wouldn't expect the kind of response on HondaTwins that you get on here Dave .. or maybe it's just  me asking the wrong  questions.

Check the oil pump body..if it's steel with an alloy plunger piston then consider changing it to the later alloy body/steel plunger one from a later model. It's well documented that the flow from the early pump was insufficient and there is a tendency for the exhaust cam lobe/rocker/journal (final one in the oil delivery chain) to wear prematurely. Obviously, if you are only intending on doing a low mileage on it  then probably no need though. Roy Halliwell and myself bought the later alloy body one off eBay (the 500T pump also fits)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: hairygit on November 27, 2017, 06:10:28 PM
The cover of the filter has an internal M8 thread tapped into it, and the M8 bolt acts as a puller, the same way as getting the alternator rotor off of a Honda four engine (although the four alternator thread is much bigger)

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: UK Pete on November 27, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
Great project Mrdavo, as i am reading through yours and others posts its giving me the much needed enthusiasm to get back on with mine
pete
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on November 27, 2017, 08:16:05 PM
For the knackered crosshead,  you can with a wide pin punch,  peen the damaged metal back into shape.

After that you can then tap a impact driver bit into the reshaped head and it'll usually give you enough bite to then use the impact driver on it,  but tap it to do up first,  then reverse it as it should release it.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 29, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
Pete, if following this rebuild rekindles your enthusiasm for restoring your bikes, that is worth the trouble of making these posts on its own.  :)

That crosshead was a mean little SOB, with a tiny mangled cross on an unusual flat headed screw, I'm not sure if that's because it goes behind the points plate, anyhow my ancient (and probably non JIS) impact driver came to the rescue yet again - K2-K6 I usually do tighten them first, but by accident as it seems to jump into clockwise mode when I'm not paying attention.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/6mrhwif53/IMG_2221.jpg)

Ive got both cams out and all the cam followers out now, virtually zero wear anywhere. I didn't get the valves out last night though, as I couldn't see how to shift the torsion bars. Only on reading some old threads did I find out about the knock pins behind the torsion bar keeper bolts, they aren't mentioned in the manual. If I can get the torsion bar ends away from the heads enough to clear the knock pins, apparently I can turn them with a 14mm spanner, releasing the collets. And there was me wondering how the hell I was going to get my valve sring compressor in there, and what to do with it if I did.

I managed to get the spinner out of the oil filter by using a 6mm screw as an extractor, I thought I needed a special tool to get the special filter body nut off until I noticed on the ads on eBay it looked suspiciously like my CB750 clutch centre nut tool - result! Unlike the CB750, because of the restricted space, a hammer and screwdriver is not an option. It was all clean in there, I'm guessing it was cleaned when the clutch came off to try and fix the gearchange fault, and when that didn't work out the bike was never used again.

Ash, you're right about the oil pump, it has a steel body, thanks for the info - I knew from t'internet that oil supply was a problem, often evidenced by early yellowing of the laquer on the exhaust cam end covers caused by heat - mine had gone yellow anyway, but with age. I can see a couple of later pumps for sale from a breaker in the US (like DK, but using blue Terry Towels instead of chequer plate for the photos),  However I'm not ordering until I know whether or not I also need some of the gearbox parts he has, due to the horrendous postage charges. As for the twins forum, yes there has been a distinct tumbleweed vibe since I posted on there a few days ago - nothing!

The NOS headlamp shell arrived, all the way from Oz, although being red it has the same Honda logo and 'HM16' cast on it, plus the hole for the neutral light.

I have ordered a new early CL450 seat from Texavina in Vietnam, when I queried why it was $40 more than a similar seat listed I got a reply that it was because of the stainless trim strip around the base, plus a $20 refund!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/46poie24n/s-l1600p.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: UK Pete on November 29, 2017, 04:31:03 PM
Sounds like your getting stuck in, what is the benefit of tightening first on stubborn screws and bolts, i usually give them a swift tao with hammer first before undoing
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on November 30, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
As you do Pete,  I'd tap them first and then use a good fit bit to get them to move.

I'd usually rotate clockwise if they've been knackered by someone trying to undo them first,  very often the "doing up " drive faces are still intact so you can get any corrosion to release going that way abit with good drive.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 30, 2017, 06:18:15 PM
Postimage isn't letting me upload at the moment (after I recommended it in an thread about uploading pictures) so pics later, however there have been developments....

I split the cases last night, and was pleased but puzzled to find everything in the transmission in apple pie order, including all the hard to get bits like the stoppers with the wheels on rivets and the selctors, nothing to replace at all. Which begged the question - where the */-+ did that 8x4mm pin in the sump come from?

I had a look through the parts book online, and that pin is used twice in the 450 engine, as well as in the CB750 F2 oil pump somewhere. It connects the selector drum to the assembly with the plates and pins, as all that works it must still be there, though you'd have to pull it all apart to see it. The other I found out was to stake the camchain idler wheel spindle into the cases, 22 in the diagram below:

(https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/honda-cb450k7-1974-usa-cam-chaintensionerguideroller_bighu0029e6006_fdad.gif)

When I found this out at midnight, I went back into the garage to check if it was AWOL from where it should be, I wondered if I'd dislodged it as I took the barrels off, causing it to fall in the sump. What did floor me, considering I was so sure that noone had been in there before me, was that the spindle it knocks into, 9 in the diagram, was in there the wrong way round, so the pin couldn't have been doing its job of locating the spindle, as the locating hole was at the wrong end to the groove in the crankcase where the pin locates. It had once been in the right place once, as you can see witness marks on the barrel skirt and flange, but couldn't have got from there into the sump. It was either dropped in and lost, put in the right hole at the other end where it would have been able to work loose and fall into the sump, or in the right place but not located in the spindle hole - however to be damaged at all it must have been in the sump already, not fallen in when I took the barrels off.

 All very strange, I know for a fact that I hadn't had the spindle out and put it back the wrong way round. The chain roller (8) was tired and worn, they get hard and fragile - I think bits of it are in the sump, I've ordered a new Japanese pattern one from DS.

I had wondered why there was damage to the crosshead screw that holds the little oval spindle cover over the top camchain roller at the very top of the head (18), I'm guessing someone was investigating a noisy camchain.

The knockpin has a little burr and enough slight damage to stop it going back into the spindle. It could have been far worse if it had had a trip around the gearbox! Finding it to be made of unobtanium I was resigned to filing it to fit, then I googled the part number and found a dealer in Alabama with a couple. Usual deal with the USA, carriage was twice the part cost, but a bit of horse trading via ebay messaging and we reached an agreement.

I've ordered all the seals and a gasket set, on the grounds that if it ain't broke don't fix it, I'll start putting it together again when I have all the bits. 
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 01, 2017, 04:44:44 PM
Roy and Ashley, sorry to mess you about, but can you both have a look for a plastic speedo for me? I'm looking again for one to match the tacho on page 1 of this thread.

The later style rev counter came today from the USA, and I was disappointed with it, they must take the photos in a certain light so they don't look so faded. I should've paid more attention to the orange needle tip, which didn't look so great. At least I'll have a matching later pair to sell, the speedo is virtually NOS, which is why I was going to use it. I'd already ordered the late tacho when you both offered to have a look for a plastic speedo to match my original plastic rev counter, which isn't faded.

There are stick on guage faces available, but as a pvc sticker, not like the sort of thing that Marcel does for the 750, if it matched the speedo properly and din't look crap I'd be amazed.

Ashley, the CB350 one wouldn't be a problem ratio wise, apparently they are all 2240:60 mph, they tweak for wheel size at the speedo drive end. The plastic face measures across at 75mm, see if the 350 ones are the same, if you want a photo of underneath to see if the mountings are the same, here's a pair on a familiar chequer plate, I must have learned something today, as on these the orange tip has faded right off, so I won't be bidding.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/rUoAAOSwywRaHXPO/s-l1600.jpg)

The main criteria is an unfaded face, low mileage would be a bonus, I don't know how hard they are to get apart and reset though.

If you dig up anything suitable, pm me with how much you want plus p&p I can sort it via paypal.

This weekend I shall be mostly washing my lower crankcase half in petrol to remove the crud inside and out. There is a box of bits on its way via Fedex from Mr Silver, who can book his Christmas holidays now.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 03, 2017, 10:20:18 PM
Sorry Dave just picked this up  plus the new posts  don't show on main board.

Here  is  all I have but CB/CL350 plastic has lower speed graduations

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 03, 2017, 10:24:56 PM
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 04, 2017, 12:06:19 PM
The 350 speedo goes up to 110mph, as the CL450 was road tested at 105mph that will be fine, Ash. Low mileage fits in with what I found in the engine too. I reckon they only gave the CL450 a 130mph speedo to impress the 'how fast will it go mister?' brigade, imagine holding on to those high bars at 130mph!  :o I'll send you a pm, thanks for looking.

This is the exhaust valve seat from the side that had the rusty rings, it obviously wasn't turned over at all for a decade or two. I was pleased to find it cleaned up Ok using coarse grinding paste, I thought it may have to be recut with a special Honda cutter like what Graham has got. The rest of the valves and seats were pristine, obviously left closed. I'll finish them all with fine paste and decoke the chamber when I get as far up as the head on the rebuild.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3kob39x6v/IMG_2236.jpg)

This is the camwheel that needed replacing, as it had gone rock hard it would have continued to fall apart, worth the strip down for this alone. You can also see the slightly damaged pin that was in the sump, and the hole it should have been in but wasn't. A pair of new pins on their way from USA, then I'll have the only new spare one. :)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ite8h1j5j/IMG_2231.jpg)

Contents of the crankcases all safely contained in the box Ashley sent me a CB750 crank in, I hope those rollers go back in their cages Ok, I didn't expect them to make a bid for freedom like that.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qywaf7mtz/IMG_2237.jpg)

The cases were well protected by a layer of oily gunge which I washed off with the stale petrol from the tank, Also inside where I was surprised how much black sludge there was to clean out. I then applied paint stripper to the laquered top surfaces, got that off then with a brush applied a thick baking soda solution and left it for a while before rinsing everything off. See, I'm learning from the best.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8jbthtgfb/IMG_2238.jpg)

I then applied Simonize VHT silver engine block paint (which I'd left in hot water for a while, shaking from time to time), a bit too blingy for me but a vast improvement, it will look good with the polished outer cases when I've finished with them on the wheel, I made a start with them as well. Question, if I use spray on Simoniz clear laquer over the polished bits, will it likely go yellow with heat, do I need to find a heat resistant version, or just not bother, like I didn't with the CB750?

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rbnolekjb/IMG_2239.jpg)






Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Johnwebley on December 04, 2017, 01:40:23 PM
this is a brilliant thread,

 keep up the good work !!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 04, 2017, 02:04:19 PM
I was wondering if the 'gut's of  the 120 MPH (extreme RHS in my 1st pic ) metal body gauge could be transplanted into the plastic body one. Need to ask kent400 he's bound to know. Up to you Dave
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 04, 2017, 02:32:29 PM
I don't see what we'd gain from that, I've found that the internal gearing in the speedo is the same for all Honda speedos from that era, they tweak for differnet wheel sizes at the speedo drive on the axles, which aren't interchangable.

Chances of me going much over the ton on a CL aren't high, if anyone tells me 'I think you'll find that's not the correct speedo graduations' I'll tell them to get a life, so no the 350 one will be fine Ash.

Edit: That said if you sell me the plastic one, I'd still have the nearly new later type alloy bodied one that's on the bike now, so if they would swap easily once I'd prised the crimp off (not that easy to do without butchery I know), I could do it myself - so paging kent400 - in fact I'll send him a pm.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on December 04, 2017, 05:07:41 PM
Hi,

Nice build !

One word of advice regarding the crank of these bikes.

Please do yourself a favour and bring the crank to a specialist and ask him / her to remove the left and right oil way plugs, clean the oil ways behind the plugs, and put new ones in.
This is well worth the money, because good cranks are very hard to find. I can explain why you should do this, but that takes a while, but if you want me to explain, I will.

Jensen
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 04, 2017, 05:30:44 PM
Eww! Unexpected delay alert!

I've been following your thread on twins.net, so I do appreciate that you know what you are talking about. Can you give me the short tldr version of why I have to do this instead? :)

Can anyone suggest a UK specialist? If its one I can drive to from Manchester even better. They'll have to get the rotor off too, because I couldn't, but didn't have to until now.

I was going to start putting the bottom end back together, but hey, I can polish cases and start on the head.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on December 04, 2017, 06:11:10 PM
The reason is that the inner crank wall oil guide has a larger diameter then the spinner filter.

[attachimg=1]

The centrifugal force on a floating particle is depending on the circular speed of the filter and the weight of the particle and the distance of the particle from the center.

Fc= m*w2*r

Fc is the centrifugal force
m is the mass of the floating particle
w is the circular speed
r is the radius or distance from particle toward the centre

Since every other variable in this formula is the same (w and m), the Fc working on a given particle will be higher because of the larger diameter, which is the r in the formula above. So, if any particle is not caught by the spinner filter it will be caught by the crank walls due to this effect.

Since the oil is pushed from the crank walls into the oilway's to the big-ends, the particles will block this oil way slowly. By removing the plugs, you are able to clean the oil ways. The crank walls can be cleaned from the out-side.

In the picture below, I flush the oil ways with very aggressive fluids for weeks, but getting the plugs out is the best solution. The nasty stuff in the bottle is what's came out my CB450 K0 crankshaft, having just 1500 miles on the odo (and nothing on the bike says that this isn't the real mileage).

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 05, 2017, 12:32:37 PM
If I've got this right - Tldr: The crap is flung as far out as possible, the crank is bigger than the centrifugal filter, ergo that is where the crap ends up.

I wondered about doing it myself, but then I read forum posts where people were having nightmares trying to drill out and then retrieve hardened balls from the oilways, sod that for a lark.

These guys have a lot of experience making old Honda engines go well:

http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/

I emailed them last night and was surprised to get a reply around midnight:

Quote
Hello,
Yes we can do that for you. We charge £125.00 + VAT to remove plugs, clean sludge traps, remove both end flywheels, clean and inspect big end cages + crank pins + rods, and rebuild. The first step is to check the pins. rods + cages. If there is a problem at this point we would let you know.
Is your a 4 speed motor?
There will be return P &P also.
I hope this helps,

Sounds like a deal, compared to the cost of it eating a crank, decent ones do look hard to come by, plus after my experiences with both the Harley and the CB750 I'm done with sudden unplanned crank changes, so I'm now looking for a suitable box. Thanks for your input Jensen, without it I would just have got on with the rebuild not knowing I had another ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

On another topic, what do we think for the frame, rattle can satin black (over undercoat) or powder coat?

Honda seem to have given it a typical coat of black paint, no visible primer, looks great in the showroom, not so great 50 years down the line.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 05, 2017, 01:23:57 PM
Hi ...  is yours a 4-speed or 5-speed Dave ? ..I assumed  it was a five speed, which has a totally different (more conventional) crank to the K0 'Bomber' ones that I have. Great heads-up anyway Jensen as I have four of those early (K0) cranks to sort out.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 05, 2017, 01:48:09 PM
It’s a 5 speed, CL450 K2, I assume the heads up re sludge traps still applies.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 05, 2017, 02:50:09 PM
It’s a 5 speed, CL450 K2, I assume the heads up re sludge traps still applies.

Not sure ..one for Jensen ! His diagrams refer to the K0 4-speed crank I think.

Here is a pressed apart K0 for comparison (not mine !)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 05, 2017, 04:24:37 PM
Hmm, hard to say what's different with my crank, as its all in one piece at the moment. I'm guessing clean traps beat dirty ones whatever the model, there was a lot of black slime in the bottom of the cases, though nothing in the actual filter. Paging Jensen....

Meanwhile, as I was in the garage I just took these

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9qq7thv87/IMG_2241.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z9ik6imhz/IMG_2242.jpg)

I know what you're thinking 'But Dave, you've owned this bike for three weeks now, is that all you've done?'

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 05, 2017, 04:28:33 PM
Look at the weird main bearings on the K0 crank pic Dave !
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 05, 2017, 04:41:00 PM
Eww, that is wierd!, I just have a massive pair of ball.....races.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 05, 2017, 05:07:45 PM
Eww, that is wierd!, I just have a massive pair of ball.....races.

Your crank is similar to a CB350K crank Dave.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on December 05, 2017, 05:14:04 PM
Sludge trap is also at the 5-speed crank, there's not much difference. I would only let them bore out the plugs and let them clean the oil ways, the rest only when necccary, but also depends what your plans for the bike are. The 5 speed cranks are difficult to press together straight, so if not necessary don't go for it.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on December 05, 2017, 07:28:23 PM
A left field view of cleaning oilways perhaps but, I've  worked for a long time on one particular type of car engine which,  certainly prior to synthetic oils,  makes alot of sludge and baked oil deposits, to the extent when you get a very poorly looked after one,  you can dig out with a spoon the baked oil from the cylinder heads.

One of the only things I found would really clean them with ease was steam. That was on a more industrial scale, but is it possible to backflow through oil ways with a domestic steam cleaner?  Prior to preserving with new oil to avoid corrosion.

It's also used routinely for cleaning glass and apparatus in chemical laboratories,  including tarred deposits.

It may avoid dismantling possibly,  but I'm not familiar enough with layout to see if this is possible.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on December 05, 2017, 07:58:29 PM
It's an easy job, the plugs aren't hardened. The new plugs can be made from aluminium and pressed in. Never tried steam, but I don't know if I wanted water in my big end bearings  ;) as you mentioned. Next to solvents, patience is mandatory, but mechanical removing is always to prefer....
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 07, 2017, 11:07:28 AM
If you read this fascinating rebuild, linked below, Graham Curtiss (Gman) deals with cleaning cranks on his early CB72. Fascinating stuff. He also is going to show me his jig he constructed for stripping and aligning Honda pressed together cranks the next  time I am near Derby. The whole set of  posts makes a cracking good read for any Honda nut like me. But the crank stripping starts here:-

http://www.honda305.com/forums/1961-cb72-project-t7634421-525.html
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 07, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
I see what you mean about my crank being like the CB350 one. As the race shop who are going to clean the crank out do loads of them it will be in good hands. I asked about just cleaning, and got this reply:

Quote
Hello Dave,
We do quite a few 450 and 350 cranks and I do prefer to 'pull' the outer flywheels off, inspect the cages, rods & pins at the same time as cleaning the sludge traps. Obviously the oil passes through the middle main bearings as it is fed to the big ends and it is far better for cleaning if the crank is pulled down as I mentioned. We can then replace the blanks once we have cleaned and inspected the delivery holes.
Cheers

I'm going to leave it in his hands, I guess he will have also seen the kind of damage shown in that thread loads of times, that crank has had a hard life!

I found a plastic box the right size, but no lid. I bought 2 and cut the bottom off one to make a lid, its now in there with a load of bubblewrap. Tonight I'll seal it up, weigh it and look on Parclemonkey for carriage options, that worked well when I sent my CB750 stuff to Menno.

 Of course when i picked the crank up, rollers went everywhere, I rounded them up and put them in a freezer bag. I'm guessing grease is the word when you are putting the crank back in.

On another topic, here are my two tachos, never one for an easy life I'm now considering swapping their insides, to use the steel outer, matching my vgc speedo, and the unfaded guts of the plastic one.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/fidgxtqyv/IMG_2243.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: kent400 on December 07, 2017, 05:12:38 PM
When you do swap the tacho internals over do check the dial face screws are tight as they have a tendency to become loose on the types with a metal face and the small-headed screws. Also check the inside of the base is ensure there is no corrosion, if there is flakes of rust can be attracted to the internal magnet and jam the gauge. The light tubes can also come loose, they are only glued in and a spot of two-part resin adhesive will resolve that.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 08, 2017, 12:31:11 AM
Will do, thanks. My first concern is getting in and out without butchering the bezel.

Does anyone know what the difference is between CL450 and CL350 / SL350 handlebars? All three have different part numbers, but the difference is the three digit model code in the middle. I’m asking as I need a set of bars and some 350 ones have come up on the bay of fleas.

Maybe the 450 bars are wider because it’s a bigger bike, but I don’t know and can’t find out.

ETA: I bought a pair of round tank badges today with the '450' underneath, see 'Desperately Seeking' for a picture.

Here's the link in case James wants a more correct set   ;) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152820302352
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 11, 2017, 12:59:54 PM
I didn't get as much done this weekend - Saturday I went for a walk in the snow with the Mrs, when we came back (after a good pub lunch) it was so nice to get back in the warm I couldn't face the cold garage, fan heater or not. Anyway, my mate said on Friday night that I'd better slow down, or I'll be after another project in the new year :)

Sunday I did a bit, painted the headlamp shell and a guage case satin black (warmed the paint in hot water first) and started to get my head together, man. Remember that rusty valve seat on the last page, that had been left open for many years? Here it is after a dose of grinding paste and elbow grease.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/c90xkut93/IMG_2251.jpg)

While I had the head down off the shelf I couldn't resist unwrapping the barrels and trying them both on over the studs, to see how the cleaned but empty engine looked.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qs82mah93/IMG_2248.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/clsbr2e3r/IMG_2247.jpg)

A question regarding old rubber - the carb intake manifolds are cast in rubber, but have gone so hard over time that I thought at first they were fibre or even some kind of metal, until I thought about how the carbs were fastened on using a hose clip, which must be able to compress the manifold material to make an airtight seal. New manifolds are £50 a pair at DS, do I need to bite the bullet, or is there anthing I could try soaking them in to soften them?

EDIT: Just seen a post Ash just made, by concidence, adressing this very issue!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 11, 2017, 02:18:47 PM
See reply here: Dave

http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,13617.45.html
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 11, 2017, 02:20:04 PM
You ninja'd my edit!

Duinno if I can get that Refos stuff but I will root in the wife's potion drawer looking for wintergreen.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 11, 2017, 02:52:33 PM
You ninja'd my edit!

Duinno if I can get that Refos stuff but I will root in the wife's potion drawer looking for wintergreen.

Send them here if you wish.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 11, 2017, 03:23:13 PM
Thanks very much, Ash, it would be the 'green' thing to recycle the manifolds, they are perfect apart from being rock hard. I'll chuck them in a jiffy bag later in the week and send them over.



Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 13, 2017, 06:59:26 PM
My crank is ready! That was a quick turnround, Mike says he likes to squeeze these small jobs in between the big ones.

Quote
The crank has been stripped, cleaned, crank pin oil plugs removed, sludge traps cleaned, re-placement oil plugs fitted, crank rebuilt and trued.
It is now ready to be shipped back to you.

Yes the bearings were all OK to use. Obviously they are not new but from our experience all serviceable. There was no more crud that usual and the pins, cages, needles and big end eyes were all good to go. One of the small end eyes is getting towards the limit but tried it with a new pin and it should be good for a few more miles yet.

My carb rubbers have been posted of to Ashley, to be soaked in magic fluid, and I decided to send my two tachos to Pete for swapping the insides over as I wasn't confident I could get them apart and back together without messing them up, I'd rather pay to have it done right.

James is looking for some bars for me, as usual this board is proving to be invaluable, both for advice and services - my CB750 runs on what used to be Ash's spare crank, and I rebuilt that engine without major dramas thanks to the advice I got from here, for example when the oil pump wouldn't prime.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on December 13, 2017, 09:39:52 PM
My crank is ready! That was a quick turnround, Mike says he likes to squeeze these small jobs in between the big ones.

Quote
The crank has been stripped, cleaned, crank pin oil plugs removed, sludge traps cleaned, re-placement oil plugs fitted, crank rebuilt and trued.
It is now ready to be shipped back to you.

Yes the bearings were all OK to use. Obviously they are not new but from our experience all serviceable. There was no more crud that usual and the pins, cages, needles and big end eyes were all good to go. One of the small end eyes is getting towards the limit but tried it with a new pin and it should be good for a few more miles yet.

My carb rubbers have been posted of to Ashley, to be soaked in magic fluid, and I decided to send my two tachos to Pete for swapping the insides over as I wasn't confident I could get them apart and back together without messing them up, I'd rather pay to have it done right.

James is looking for some bars for me, as usual this board is proving to be invaluable, both for advice and services - my CB750 runs on what used to be Ash's spare crank, and I rebuilt that engine without major dramas thanks to the advice I got from here, for example when the oil pump wouldn't prime.
That was a good find for the crank people. The crank was one of the items that had me worried about my upcoming Bomber engine rebuild. Have kept a note of those people to use later, and what a decent price as well. By the way, Pete has done quite a few of my clocks now and does a first class job at a reasonable price. I have been very pleased with his work (have I done enough for my 10% yet Pete). ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 22, 2017, 04:59:09 PM
The crank came back safely, they even tied the bearings so all the rollers haven't fallen out (yet).

The carb rubbers are back from Ashley, they no longer feel like they are metal, cheers for doing that, Ash. I recognised the parcel tape straight away! Pete has been in touch about my gauges, just use the best internals with the steel case, Pete, cheers.

Finally I got a note from Parcefarce to say my seat is in the UK, arrived from Vietnam, and they'd like some money please. Less than I expected, just plus VAT and extortion fee, but who am I to argue?

There will now be a hiatus, as January is my busiest month work wise, hopefully I will be back in the garage in February.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 29, 2017, 03:12:01 PM
First of all here's what I started with, A later seat but with early tank and side panels, which I definitely wanted to keep. The seat is going up for sale if anyone needs one, by the way, I'll stick an ad up when I get around to it.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nvob0zqpz/IMG_2140.jpg)

A box arrived in the snows from a big white van late yesterday, my seat
 here at last from vietnam!

Here it is once I realised the missing strap was bolted to its mounts, but in the undertray for safe transit.  :-[

(https://s5.postimg.cc/enw2kardj/IMG_2140s.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ik9egbexz/IMG_2288s.jpg)

You can see on the chainguard the tasteful metallic purple the whole bike once was. probably when it got the cowhorns (Don't forget to look for the bars, James  :) . BTW those are the original Decarbon shocks (must  look for stickers again), I wonder if I can swap them with the CB750K1 (which wears replicas) for shows?
 
The imitiation alligators they use in Vietnam these days aren't as mature as the one they used to make James's patana 1968 seat, maybe it'll wear in with use.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y5qq09bgn/IMG_2287s.jpg)

While I was typing this, my doorbell rang, there was was a DHL van outside. It was my clocks back from Peter, excellent.  :) The steel tacho is the one that's refurbished, with no sign of my bodged paint job and a replated base.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/r7r789shz/IMG_2291.jpg)

I was worried I'd now need the other base doing, but as it seems to be newish old stock, the speedo finish looks fine with it, other than a bit of cable rub, that may well be hidden by whatever cable has done it, we'll see. These are mounted by finger, no rubbers or bolts, I just had to see.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/k4jbsjcqv/IMG_2292x.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mlv2ztc2v/IMG_2294x.jpg)

All looks splendid, thanks Peter!



He also sent two stainless bases as I hadn't got a matching pair, thanks.


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on December 29, 2017, 04:21:15 PM
Making good progress there well done mate. The bars are on a 500/4 that’s at my mate Andy’s place for storage - I’ve asked him to measure them so as soon as I know I’ll drop you a pm...
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 04, 2018, 12:46:31 PM
I was hoping to get on with the engine today, but no joy as I straight away had another knockpin knockback!

Firstly, this is where I'm hamstrung by the parts books available online being for the K0 or K2, and mine is a K1, according to the engine and VIN numbers - the K0 crank is quite different, as we've already learned. Despite parts books for the K2 listing 3 knockpins, and a different stepped one (which is what I bought from CMS), there are in fact holes for 4 10x8 pins - Grr! I mentioned before the originals went AWOL, possibly accidentaly chucked but who knows - anyway we are where we are. So I need another one.

If I had it I would still be stymied, as the rotor side outer cage is on the wrong way round! If I put the knockpin in, the oil feed wouldn't be anywhere near the corresponding hole in the case, see the photo. At least I have the sense to realise this, but it does p*ss me off. I should send the crank back for the builder to put right, but the packing, post delay and what have you mean I can't be arsed. I havent got a rotor puller, but I was going to buy one anyway, just a bit sooner than anticipated.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4n2fzrhbb/IMG_0423.jpg)

I decided to build the head up, and ran into a mystery regarding valve stem seals. There weren't any when I stripped it down, K2 parts lists show them, and they aren't in my gasket set. They are also £10 a pop from DS. WTF?

I just looked at the K0 CB450 parts list that Ashley put up and don't see them.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj3kxdzg2k8rklb/Honda%20CB450%20K0%20Parts%20List%20Manual.pdf?dl=0

I'm assuming that CL and CB 450 went through the same K0 -K1 - K2 progression at the same time, but I don't know for sure, I'm assuming they did it by the model season, as the CB750 seems to (again I don't know this for a fact, the board members who worked for Honda dealerships may know different).

Page 27 of the Honda manual shows the valve guide seals, but it is a 'catch all' manual covering all models.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/stqw7jm89xtt1rz/CB450%20Factory%20Service%20Manual%20.pdf?dl=0

CMS have them IN their parts list for both the K0 and K2.  :o

Maybe my bike was put back together without (remember the only sign that someones ever been in before me was the misplaced cam roller knockpin), I wonder if it then smoked like something out of a Cheech and Chong sketch?

(http://themightychallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/luxury-cheech-and-chong-up-in-smoke-quotes-cheech-chong-up-in-smoke-hey-man-am-i-driving-okay-cheech-and-chong-up-in-smoke-quotes.jpg)

I do need these seals in a K1 yes or no?

EDIT: Found an online CB450 K1 parts list. Assuming they are the same engine, other than gearing, I need to compare it with what I've got - page 9 part 16.

https://mafiadoc.com/queue/cb450-k1-parts-manual_59d80c8a1723ddac700463eb.html

Iffy hosting, the green buttons lead to spam, but it is a free download.

So today I will be mostly wet and drying and polishing the alloy bits instead. It needs doing and rewards the effort put in.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 04, 2018, 02:52:26 PM
Looking at that K1 download Dave there are no seals ...Looking in the Haynes manual they describe a 2 piece stem seal but I guess their bike they used as a stripdown  is a later than K1 model as it begins with a 3. So I would summarize that your bike never had them. There were none on the '69 CB250/350's either. If the clearance between your valves and guides is good you should be fine IMHO and I don't suppose your finished bike is going to do loads of miles. Trig or Bryan may know better though. Mick Taylor (kettle738) has  owned  & rebuilt K0 & K1's so I will ask him if you like.

Bummer on the crank not being done properly.. I think with my bomber crank I will just try to flush it out thoroughly with solvent without disassembly ..I will probably be shot down in flames for doing this but there ya go.

EDIT: Just checked '3' prefix is K2 so Haynes bike was a K2 and  so it looks like K2 had stem seals.

I have used a Fiat van wheel bolt as a rotor puller. Now I use an old CB250K rear wheel axle with a 'T'  bar welded to it. Seems to work OK.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Seabeowner on February 04, 2018, 03:18:53 PM
Great in depth restoration Dave.
If it's a K1 what's up with CMS for lists? Maybe you have as I haven't read the whole thread in detail.
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k1-1968-usa_model449/partslist/
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb450k1-1968-usa_model449/partslist/E++10.html#results
Not always to be trusted 100%, but pretty good.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 04, 2018, 03:47:22 PM
Appear to have been fitted on this guy's '69 CL

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/35824-valve-guide-valve-stem-seal-questions-pictures.html
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 04, 2018, 07:59:11 PM
I hadn't thought of looking for the CB450 K1 on CMS, as the CL parts lists go straight from K0 to K2. There you go, no seal on the CB K1 version, as I said the same engine, different cycle parts and gearing. That guy on the twins forum probably has a 1969 K2, which is quite different in some repects, the later tank seat etc, that does have a seal. I don't know when the change was, it must have been very late in the year as my K1 was made in November 1969, but the CMS parts list is specifically for the 1969 K2 CL450. All very confusing.

Anyway there was no seal, all the K1 listings I've seen show no seal, that's £40 saved.

Today I was mostly polishing:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/y1h0hs28n/IMG_2308.jpg)

The rear cam cover is an original looking silver paint finish, oddly, maybe it was easier to keep clean that way. I noticed the oil seal for the points drive shaft - I haven't already got a new one, so at least I won't be just ordering a knock pin from Silvers, it seemed a waste of the postage charge for something so tiny.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: hairygit on February 04, 2018, 08:07:00 PM
I hadn't thought of looking for the CB450 K1 on CMS, as the CL parts lists go straight from K0 to K2. There you go, no seal on the CB K1 version, as I said the same engine, different cycle parts and gearing. That guy on the twins forum probably has a 1969 K2, which is quite different in some repects, the later tank seat etc, that does have a seal. I don't know when the change was, it must have been very late in the year as my K1 was made in November 1969, but the CMS parts list is specifically for the 1969 K2 CL450. All very confusing.

Anyway there was no seal, all the K1 listings I've seen show no seal, that's £40 saved.

Today I was mostly polishing:

(https://s5.postimg.org/y1h0hs28n/IMG_2308.jpg)

The rear cam cover is an original looking silver paint finish, oddly, maybe it was easier to keep clean that way. I noticed the oil seal for the points drive shaft - I haven't already got a new one, so at least I won't be just ordering a knock pin from Silvers, it seemed a waste of the postage charge for something so tiny.
Before ordering the knock pin and oil seal from Silvers, check the part numbers on motogrid, that apparently shows all the bikes they were/are fitted to, always a possibility that a more modern bike uses them as well, then you may be able to get it from your local Honda dealer and save on postage!

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 04, 2018, 11:31:25 PM
Sure enough when I checked the CB450 K1 parts list, it was the one and only place where there are 4 10x8 knock pins, so definitely the same motor, no other parts list has this, ie not K0, K2 onwards or CB500T. It would have saved me no end of grief if I’d cottoned on to this earlier.

I did an online search last night for the knock pin part number 94302 - 06100 (the second part being 6 x 10 mm), 94301 was available cheap on eBay, but it’s used in a couple of cylinder heads, and could be hollow for all I know. As usual for Honda bits, loads in the USA, all plus an arm and a leg postage of course.

Edit: Futtocks. Just spotted, in the K1 list I linked to, part number 14791-292-000 valve stem oil seal. Superseded by 14791-319-005. £11.94 each. Better to find out now. I will have a look tomorrow to see what’s there on my head, when I removed one of the little fork shaped guide retainers, it was a sod to get the bolt back in, so I didn’t disturb the others. I really don’t recall a seal, but I may have just thought it was a fancy washer. Even if they were perfect though, with my recent experience of anything vaguely rubber and how a few decades turns it like iron, I’m having new ones.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on February 04, 2018, 11:37:26 PM
Try DSS... http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/by-part-number/partnumber_9430206100/
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 04, 2018, 11:50:49 PM
Already in my basket James, just waiting for me to figure out what else I’m ordering.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on February 05, 2018, 04:31:48 AM
Motogrid doesn't work any more think they may have gone out of business, did find another cross reference list but lost the link.

Try this link for x ref but only list bikes back to 77

https://www.dealercostparts.com/oemparts/c/honda/parts
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 05, 2018, 07:19:14 AM
These do 'used on' lists Bryan (Related fitment)

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/14791-292-000?ref=96ca83de01e1baab60cc43a67c4ceb8675c18969

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/14791-319-005

Knock pin :  https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/94302-06100

Knock pin as used on 500/4 I think
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 05, 2018, 05:20:19 PM
Looks like Honda use those knock pins on all sorts, including jet skis!

I ordered what I need from DS in the end, though they had to split my order as I also need a points shaft oil seal, and they buy those in from Honda, but I don't want to wait for the knockpin.

As I was curious I went to look at my cylinder head at lunchtime, what I thought was a special flat washer to retain the valve guide is in fact the mystery oil seal, it just doesn't look like I expected, ie like a CB750 one / every other valve guide oil seal I've ever seen, well they did say the CB450 was unconventional ;) I ordered them too, £ bloody expensive.

Anyhoo, once I have the knock pin and the rotor puller (dispatched today by the eBay seller) I should be good to get on with assembling the bottom end at last. I got a good used 500T oil pump on Ashley's recommendation from the USA, I'm assuming it will fit straight on.

Basically I want to finish the motor first, so I can store it out of the way, dismantle the (reinforced to take the CB750 engine after it broke :) ) workmate it's on, and use the same bit of garage space to restore the chassis. Only then can I get my Sportster back out of storage (normally it lives where the CL450 rolling chassis is now), if my CB750 stuff isn't back from Menno once spring is sprung I'll need a bike on the road.

What a tangled web we weave.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 08, 2018, 10:32:51 AM
It was freezing in the garage last night, I have a little electric heater, which is OK as long as you aren't continually handling things made of very cold metal... However the wife was watching soaps, and that means garage time!

The first job was to get the rotor and starter clutch off with my new puller, which worked fine. As an aside, the puller came from Roger Etcell at Honda Classics in Towcester, so I was a bit confused to find a David Silver Collection brochure (I have a few of these, you may have too) in the envelope, are they related in some way?

 Next job was to get the main bearing outer race off without spraying rollers everywhere. I put plastic sheeting under the cases to catch them in case that happened, but hit on the idea of using a zip tie to keep the rollers in their cage, see below.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nnhkatonb/IMG_2317.jpg)

Note the circlip pliers, I only have about three things made by Snap On, pilfered from work in a previous life, but they are the business. Before I had them, circlips meant time for some godawful butchery involving long nosed pliers and screwdrivers.

Race reversed and in the right place with the oil hole lining up now and the new knockpin installed, starter clutch and rotor back on and torqued up. Time to put the bearing holder in place, oh wait I nearly forgot the camchain. Then I found a snag, the new DID chain from DS was continous, with no soft link. Time to dig out the stupidly cheap camchain splitter / riveter I got from eBay, good job I ordered it well in advance of needing it. Post free though, from China, so why is everything from the US so $$$ to send, even the tinyest item?  :o

It came with a full set of instructions. In Chinese, no pictures.  >:( Anyway, I worked it out for myself, but I was very wary of buggering up the links either side of the one I took out. It seeemed to go OK, with a bit of trial and error.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qhkpo9bdz/IMG_2320.jpg)

Finally, I draped the cut chain over the sprocket, put the bearing carrier over it and torqued up the bolts. Job done, ready to put the cases back together, but next time, it was time to go in and get my hands warm.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wv9srinzr/IMG_2321.jpg)


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on February 08, 2018, 12:13:41 PM
Bravo Dave, great work as always - tell you what, it would have been so easy to miss the fact the cage was on the wrong way round & pay the heavy price for no oil feed.

What did the crank builders say when you told them you'd 'caught' their mistake?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 08, 2018, 12:35:17 PM
Yes  great work Dave ... I may get one of those cam chain tools if they are any good. I don't think I will get my crank stripped though..I will probably adopt the 'Jensen' method of flushing.

Roger is ex-Honda UK and set up DS Museum & is also a valuer for Bonhams. He's a nice bloke ...met him at Stafford and the museum.

I wonder if he got permission from Honda  to copy and sell  their manuals due to his previous employment with them ?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 08, 2018, 05:53:12 PM
I recommend the camchain tool, it did what it was supposed to and didn't break. Slow delivery, but free.

Thanks for your comments.

Edit: Long rant about CMS blaming me because their parts list is broken deleted. This is a rebuild thread, not therapy. If you have nothing good to say, say nothing.

I haven't taken up the bearing cockup with the crank builder, it was much easier to sort it out than send it back, but I wasn't impressed.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 11, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
A busy weekend in the garage, I went from putting the cases together to bottom end finished, pistons on rods, ready for the barrels to go on. There I ran out of steam, I think I'm going to buy some proper ring compressors, as I was struggling with the B&Q hose clips that were fine for doing the 750.


Ready to go, Harley bond on the far case.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/659hlyvbb/IMG_2322.jpg)

Bolted up and on with the the Trigger engine stand. Built for the 750, do all engines have the same bolt spacing to make it easier at the factory / dealers?

(https://s5.postimg.cc/t6q2rqi47/IMG_2325.jpg)

On with the gearchange machanism. The splines for the lever on the gear shaft aren't great (they slip when you fall off, cutting a nice arc in the rotor cover, there are loads like that) I'll keep an eye out at autojumbles. To my surprise I had all 5 gears first go. I've fecked around with Brit gearboxes for hours, and still only had one and a half gears (faulty Haynes manuals don't help). This is neutral, each red mark on the drum is a gear. Those stopper wheels wear loose on their spindles, causing poor selection, but these are perfect. Just as well because they seem to be made of unobtanium.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/x33enpvdz/IMG_2330.jpg)

Close of play Saturday, starter, final drive sprocket and alternator on.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5fqp9kzwn/IMG_2328.jpg)

Oil pumps, 1969 original on right, 500T (more pressure) on left.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/nijs0sgbr/IMG_2331.jpg)

Clutch outer, primary sprocket and oil pump all go on together. The clutch basket gives you an idea of the 'as new' condition of everything, witness marks but no notches at all, the plates were the same. For a two grand barn find I think I've been bloody lucky.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/lqqt5w4on/IMG_2332.jpg)

Clutch and oil filter back on. CB750 clutch tool fits the filter tube nut.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/i74vg3p47/IMG_2333.jpg)

That side finished pretty much. I haven't fastened the cover up yet because I realised I hadn't bought a new kickstart seal, and now is the time to change it. Hot chocolate (in a Yorkie mug!) sent in by the wife to stop me from freezing.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/52zb3g7d3/IMG_2335.jpg)

Pistons are on, but I gave up after a struggle with the barrels and rings. Not used to 180 degree twins is my excuse, even the CB750 you do the pistons in pairs.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rroi301lj/IMG_2336.jpg)






Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 13, 2018, 10:12:25 PM
I got some proper ring compressors off eBay, and though they were a hassle due to one piston going down as I pushed on the barrels, and a right pain to get off, the studs being in the way, the barrels are on!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/vfdy7f7p3/IMG_2339.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wufiw4tcn/IMG_2341.jpg)

I noticed on Sunday that the gear lever couldn't possibly have cut that arc into the stator cover. That's becuase its the wrong $%*! lever! The CL lever is an S shape, going around the stator. The bike has been thrown at the scenery at some stage, maybe it was to buggered to leave on, and swapped for something straighter. Anyway I ordered a new one, more sheckles for Mr Silver.

Its time to get my head together (man) next, as I'd got it down off the shelf and unwrapped it, I couldn't resist having a trial fit with the bare head to see what it would look like.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/slastyanr/IMG_2340.jpg)

Finally I was checking out the cams to see if the damping rings were OK. They were but I was shocked to see this damage to the exhaust cam chain wheel:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/qgqfsvw6f/IMG_2342.jpg)

It looks to me like the chain has been off and jammed up at some time, which would explain why someone has been in the engine at some time, evidenced only by the knockpin in the sump. Bubba's blunt phillips screwdriver had managed to chew up one of the exhaust cam holder screws behind the points,  and also the screw holding the bearing for the top chainwheel for some reason.  I wonder if he'd taken out the whole exhaust cam bearing, then for reasons we will never know tried to turn it over with the cam now on the p*ss, jamming up the chain as it came off the sprocket. It may even explain why it was then parked up without turning over (remember the rusty valve seat) for a few decades, it would have been locked solid, maybe someone finally fixed it up again before the bike went up for sale.

I doubt that the engine was running when the cam chain came off, as there would have been collateral damage to the valves, pistons and head, unless they were replaced.

Its an old break, I don't really see how it would hinder the running of the camchain as it runs on the damping ring, not the metal. Does anyone think different? I don't want to buy another cam, but now would be the time.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
Difficult one Dave and the exhaust cam is always the hard one to get as one of the lobes is more prone to pitting than the others. I would be concerned that the rubber might not be fully guided with that piece missing  but maybe I am just being devils advocate and there are engine guys on here more qualified to comment than me, so hopefully they will comment. You could try PM'ing Jensen. A common prob with CB250/350K cams is that the sprocket mounting lug breaks near the threaded hole and I have seen them welded or brazed up with some sucess. I wonder if that's an option? It would certainly give me peace of mind if it was my engine.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 08:36:42 AM
Bugger. There’s a K6 one on eBay that looks decent, but they changed the part number during K5 to end in 013 from 003. I wonder what changed?

I pm’d Jensen, so he should see this. You are right, I’d probably worry about the damper ring breaking up.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 08:42:49 AM
It appears to have witness marks on the next smaller diameter section of the cam suggesting impact. Is there any reason to thump it at all? Or could the PO have got it stuck in getting it in / out?

It's not the sort of material that lends itself to impact,  obviously, but that looks more likely than other means.

It's difficult to see without the item in your hands to judge it,  but from the photo it appears that it would be ok in service as so much of the flange remains to do the job it's designed for. Looks a bit drastic but low effect.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 08:53:33 AM
I think it happened while trying to get it apart, there definitely are witness marks around the centre.

I just checked and found a post on the twins forum comparing the K6 cam with earlier ones, the profile and tacho drive are different, which is why I found one easily 🙁

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: hairygit on February 14, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
Could have been the legendary mechaninc Bubba, maybe he tried to remove the cam without splitting the chain. (Seen it done on a CB175 years ago, what a mess!)

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 09:21:11 AM
My train of thought is that all thing's being equal and if you could just get a new spare,  then you'd change it as you don't have to make a judgment. Without supply though,  you're forced into the judgment.

They are pretty well sized for the job they've got to do and have to take very little sideways load. It's been produced with enough meat on it to not give problems during machining (they don't have to be too sparing here as it's so close to centre it's inertia is low in use). To break it like that would take many times any service load it would see, and in a direction that's not envisaged in the design. In other words it should just never be subjected to load in that plane generally. I can't imagine any more material falling off it in service,  so that shouldn't be an issue.

There seems to be a lot of the flange remaining to do the job without issue. As pointed out from the colour it's been broken a while. I feel the balance is in favour of using it, it doesn't look like it would fail.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
I think I have seen it mentioned on HondaTwins that those damper rings are more trouble than they are worth and some people remove them (bits break off and clog oilways when they harden). Worth searching and asking.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 09:33:15 AM
Found it.

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/60154-cam-chain-damper-ring-question.html

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/14405-450-cam-chain-noise-cam-guides-rubbers-research.html

Who the hell is Bubba was he the Vietnam vet in Forrest Gump?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Laverda Dave on February 14, 2018, 09:51:24 AM
Great thread and I don't even have a Bomber!
Just a thought about the lack of exhaust cams due to lobe pitting (and happy to be shot down in flames for my naivety) but could you get the damaged lobes reground by Newman Cams? They have done a lovely job on my CB250RS cam, two lobes built up and reground for £53.
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 10:38:33 AM
Great thread and I don't even have a Bomber!
Just a thought about the lack of exhaust cams due to lobe pitting (and happy to be shot down in flames for my naivety) but could you get the damaged lobes reground by Newman Cams? They have done a lovely job on my CB250RS cam, two lobes built up and reground for £53.
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?

I probably have a cam with good journals he could have to get pits removed from the lobe(s) by hard welding/regrinding but I imagined it would work out expensive. I think a member here has used Newman cams for a 450 cam too years ago and reported good results.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 10:51:18 AM
Quote
I guess they could also reprofile a cam from a different model 450 into the profile you want providing they have a pattern of the profile you need and providing the newer cam is the same dimensionality as the old one?

The K6 cam is the only one that's different, sadly the tacho drive gear is different too. If I can I'll run with what I've got, as the lobes and bearing sufaces are like new.

I could get goosed ones reprofiled, but I'd rather not if I don't have to.

Bubba is just used by me as a generic American name for the previous owner, but he's usually the one to watch out for when you drop the soap in the prison shower.
Quote
Bubba - name for a close friend or boyfriend. Originating from Bubs. Bubba implies someone special and close to your heart.

Bubba is a southern derivation on the word "Brother"

Urban Dictionary


From what I read in the twins forum, I wouldn't take mechanical advice from people who seem to always know better than Honda engineers (they don't), think all bikes run smoother without a head steady (maybe, then the frame cracks somewhere else that's now overstressed), and probably run noisy 450s without damper rings because they are scared to tackle splitting the camchain and taking the head off. That may have been the PO's problem, I agree. So instead he hit with a fecking hammer. Jesus wept. Perhaps he was trying to chisel the camchain apart on the exhaust chainring.

I have the cam on my desk, those damper rings, though in good nick, are rock hard. Given that my carb inlet rubbers were hard like stone with age, until Ashley put them in his magic fluid, I think they may be past their best. Should there be any 'give'?, because there isn't, they are like hard plastic.

Edit: See, I slag off the twins guys, then I find useful info on there, two faced $%*& or what?

Quote
And they're (the "rings") not plastic, but some sort of neoprene I think - when new they're very flexible.
They cannot be installed without tearing out the cams.

Another Edit: Nope, it was the sohc4.net forum after all, now they do know their onions. But these are dohc bikes, oh wait....  ;)

New ones being ordered today.

I think K2-K6's advice sounds good to me, its not a stressed area, if I could get a new cam then I probably would for peace of mind, but they are made from 100% unobtanium.

I also found this on the US sohc forum, dated September '17:

Quote
CL350 or 450?  450's are generally worth more.
What are his plans?
Does he want to keep it stock or mod it?
An intact stock exhaust on these bikes can be worth as much as the whole bike.


 8) Smug. See photos on page one.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 12:34:39 PM
Possibly of interest,  can't see exact condition from those images though.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB450-CB-450-Cylinder-Head-with-cams-Free-UK-Postage-AK/222732489449?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D38ad87f6fe5a4bc98b4e30f7395255ae%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D222834616179%26itm%3D222732489449&_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726

Could by worth a look if correct type.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 12:59:52 PM
Thanks for looking but no, a bit of a pig in a poke that one, if I lived nearer to the Frog dude I would maybe go and take a look, but not on just those photos.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 01:41:56 PM
I wouldn't recommend my softening brew for critical internal engine parts Dave. I wouldn't do it on any of mine.

I think I read about removing the damper rings initially from Chris Saxby on Honda Twins and he was given the info by Pete Watson who used to race them and is reputely the guy that Ken Ives copied the red 'Ken Ives' Special from and also prompted Honda UK to sort out the Bomber flat spot in the carburation. Sadly Pete is no longer with us but seems to be  held in pretty high regard by people I talk to who are multi-Bomber owners (I think one of them owns about 14 !). There is good and bad info on all internet forums I think, you just have to trawl around to get the best info filtered from the not so good stuff.

This is a letter between the two of them ...interesting reading (sorry if it's a slight hijack). Also in my file on the Bomber was this period photo with Lord's Denbigh & Litchfield on their Bombers ...The Litchfield one was a red 'Ken Ives' special. Lord D also owned the Brighton Bike 750 pp gold bike ...probably traded this bomber for it (he's the one with the trendy stripey pants on  ;D)

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 03:09:58 PM
I've been reading through the twins forum thread on setting the valve clearances,  no wonder there's so many issues reported about these. Seems to have quote a few traps built in that must catch out a fair proportion of people without specific knowledge.

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/55-engine-discussion/12171-450-500-valve-adjustment.html

Also seems that the exhaust (is the cam rotating across the follower towards the rocker pivot point?) would have its peak load go highest just as the spring load peaks in comparison to the inlet which is reducing. No surprise that any wear is first seen on the exhaust lobes!

Looks like you can set the rocker eccentric adjuster two ways also (180 degrees out), which would further raise the peak load if incorrect as the fulcrum moves toward the camshaft centre line,  which disadvantages the geometry.

Seems like the design is very near the knuckle load wise. Needs very meticulous setup to avoid problems.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 04:06:10 PM
I was going to scan through that now, but realised that its just the 11 pages?  :o It looks as if there is a lot to possibly go wrong.

I had wondered if I could set it up carefully on the bench first, then check it again once the head is installed. However the timing marks give me TDC left side intake stroke, not where I want to be. A bit of geometry would be needed to make your own timing marks to do the tappets, and then probably not accurately enough. I'm guessing I build it with loose clearances, then worry about it once the chain is timed up.

There will be a delay while I wait for the parts now, as some are coming from the US, some are on special order.

I just got back from a trip to the Parcelfarce  sorting office, another £20.26 to pay for the VAT plus collection fee on the 500T stator cover, and no they don't take cards, it is only the 21st Century after all, so it was off to find a cash machine.  ::) The cover looks nice though, much better than the badly scrawped one that came with the bike, if technically not the right Honda logo.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 05:07:26 PM
Pages 1 then 9,10,11 are the most interesting. The others are just problems around the core.

Seems that if you've moved the valves back into the head at all during grinding etc,  then you may run out of valve clearance so worth going through it before fitting head in case you need to alter valve length.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 05:33:47 PM
Playing around with the stem length sounds scary, what about the hardening? Lets hope not.

Anyhow, I suppose its not beyond the wit of man for me to mark the back of the cam base with small paint marks (I can use the yellow paint pen I bought for my CB750, that's another thread altogether) then see if I can get the gaps about right with the head off the bike, better than finding out once I've built it.

This looks good, valve gear assembly step by step, with photos that haven't been screwed over by Photobucket:

http://www.hondatwins.net/forums/1-project-logs/11792-cb450-cl450-valve-train-assembly-pictorial.html
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on February 14, 2018, 06:18:24 PM
That's a very good thread on the head assembly. I'm watching this thread closely as I'm about to start work restoring my Bomber. Was looking forwards to it, but am not so sure now. As your finding, there's a lot of learning to be done.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on February 14, 2018, 09:16:10 PM
Quote
I pm’d Jensen, so he should see this

A late response since work, work and work consumes all the time I have at the moment.

If the lobes are ok, just can re-use this cam. Make sure you polish the edges a bit, so that no extra material brakes out.
I can't give you an advice about using the rubber rings in general or not. I only can say that I prefer them, makes the head noisy without them, just replace them when re-build an engine with fresh, original Honda rubber rings. Personally I only saw issue's with these rubbers on old engines with no history of rebuilding what so ever. I think it's wise to replace them within 20 years or so  ;)

In this particular case I would't use them, there is a lot of material gone to keep the rubber in place, that could be a risk.

Jensen
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 14, 2018, 10:50:54 PM
Thanks for the reply Jensen, I appreciate your input. I have ordered new rings, these are nearly 50 years old and rock hard. It would be horrible if they started to break up in service after such a long sleep.

I am glad you think I can reuse the cam as otherwise it is perfect.

The valve seats were done with grinding paste but not recut. Let’s hope I won’t need to use your expertise on shortening valves and guides to get acceptable clearances.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 14, 2018, 11:09:11 PM
Just picking up on Laverda120 post earlier ( i wouldnt in this example here as the lobes area so good) but for others looking in its worth gaining the opinion of the indicated supplier to see what they could offer. Some of these services in the past have offered wildly varying results (I've no knowledge of that supplier though, so no reflection of their work) .

http://www.common-motor.com/Honda-CB350-CB360-CB450-CB500T-CB550-Rebuilt-Camshaft-Rocker-Arms

Found the above though which indicates some specialisation in these components, unsurprisingly if anyone has direct experience of them.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2018, 11:32:13 PM
Just picking up on Laverda120 post earlier ( i wouldnt in this example here as the lobes area so good) but for others looking in its worth gaining the opinion of the indicated supplier to see what they could offer. Some of these services in the past have offered wildly varying results (I've no knowledge of that supplier though, so no reflection of their work) .

http://www.common-motor.com/Honda-CB350-CB360-CB450-CB500T-CB550-Rebuilt-Camshaft-Rocker-Arms

Found the above though which indicates some specialisation in these components, unsurprisingly if anyone has direct experience of them.

I believe Kettle738 has used Newman Cams in the past for CB450 cam parts and said they were OK..  Mick is fairly picky so I trust his opinion and I think I would use them if needed.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2018, 12:03:20 AM
If I am interpreting Jensen's reply correctly he is advising that you miss off the dampening rings on the exhaust cam because of the damage but says engine is noisier without them. Pity the metal can't be built up and machined but I am no expert on brazing chilled iron castings or if it's even a possibility. I have definitely seen CB250K sprocket mount lugs welded up though. I wonder if someone like Newman cams could advise. The USA Bubbas would probably build it up with JB Weld   ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 12:46:50 AM
In that case I may look for another decent camshaft, there are a couple on the bay, the best ones are in the US, so subject to stupid carriage plus taxes, but I’ll keep looking.

I don’t want to build a noisy engine, it would bug the crap out of me. The alternative would be to build it with dampers but keep whipping the cover off to see if it is spreading, although they are a lot of work to install, they should be a 10 minute job to cut and pull out.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on February 15, 2018, 06:46:49 AM
If it was mine I think I would hold off on a cam replacement decision until the new damper rings arrive.....To my mind there's not much left to hold a very soft rubber ring in place. If they turn out to be a fairly hard rubber they may have enough integrity to hold in place....... But that said don't forget, even turning at half crank speed the cams are still fairly whizzing around, and with clearly brutal damage like that (looks like hammer rash from the photo) there could be hidden cracks that may lead to structural failure...... Although you could easily get the cam crack tested, my gut feeling would be to wait until something better comes up and change the cam for an undamaged item...... You have gone to so much trouble getting this engine mechanically and cosmetically perfect it would be a shame to compromise, and it's going to leave a nagging doubt in your mind.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2018, 08:13:18 AM
+1 Roy .. how about a quick call to Newman cams though Dave ?  They must have seen damage like that or broken bits ... bet they have seen CB250/350K and if its any consolation that cam is really rare in decent nick compared with 450 even though they made a million of them.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 15, 2018, 09:53:51 AM
Needs better photos to assess plus I'd to see if correct item.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/HONDA-CB-450K-Nockenwelle-Auslass-camshaft-ex-/253404326822?hash=item3b00132ba6

Any use?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2018, 10:43:14 AM
Needs better photos to assess plus I'd to see if correct item.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/HONDA-CB-450K-Nockenwelle-Auslass-camshaft-ex-/253404326822?hash=item3b00132ba6

Any use?

I got really nice CB72 cam & rockers from him but an overpriced rear rim, that I ended up not using .. wonder what he means by running marks?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 11:04:54 AM
If it's nagging doubt you want, try this:

(https://s9.postimg.cc/mqe9rwee7/IMG_2343.jpg)

A very familiar shaped mark in the wheel at 10 O'clock. Absolutely no sign of Bubba's hammer here, I initially dismissed it as a water mark or something. However now its in the good light on my desk, on closer examination..

(a) Its almost exactly the same shape as the missing piece
(b) It doesn't show up too clearly in the photo, but if you look realy close there is a tiny knick at the right hand edge of the mark, at the very corner edge of the wheel. I remember spending hours polishing conrods because cracks start from knicks.

 :-\ :-\ :-\ :'(

The thought of that piece suddenly making a bid for freedom and wandering around the engine would definitely spoil my riding enjoyment, more so than just a pice of damping ring.

Thanks for that German eBay link, I found that one last night but couldn't see it today. A shame they don't say what year it is, I'll check to see if he has other 450 bits, that might give me a clue. they change mid K5. I think the running marks refer to the bearing journals, which do look pretty scored Would this do any harm in my cam holders, or just hold more oil? I would imagine if the alloy parts were also as worn you would have a problem, mine are OK. However it is this side of the pond, and therefore not subject to taxes etc. (Don't get me started on #@%$, please, or we'll soon be on page 15!) It is the best on eBay at the moment outside the US probably, DK have a couple of mingers.

I did email to ask what year or model its from, however picture #3 shows a keyway. Mine has a hole there, no keyway, I don't understand what the keyway could be for (oil retention?), as this bit runs in the bearing behind the points oil seal. Maybe they changed the way they built it up at the factory. The advance retard runs off that knockpin, same as mine.

I notice on DS's site that the cam that ends in 003 is shown as superceded by the later K5 one 013. That implies that they are compatible yes? A post on the twins site said the profile and tacho drive changed, but the tacho drive spindle is a seperate piece, driven by the slot, so this might be BS.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2018, 12:56:55 PM
Wonder what the exhaust cam is like on this set Dave...worth a call

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Honda-CB450K-CB450-K-Twin-Pair-Of-Camshafts-Inlet-And-Exhaust-Cam/351903812324?hash=item51ef1a0ae4:g:Zv4AAOSwWflaA7Vx
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 03:00:31 PM
I made them an offer on just the exhaust cam, they are going to get back to me (the inlet cam is rough, as is the other exhaust cam they have). Its a lot to buy both considereing the inlet cam is dog rough, I'd struggle to sell it on (which makes it unlikely they will want to split them, but we'll see).

Another possibility is this one, about £46 delivered, no hidden extras. Rust wants cleaning up around the points seal, but servicable bearings and lobes as far as I can see:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB450-Exhaust-Camshaft-Cam-CB-450-CL450-CL/282824326730

The downside is a couple of weeks to get here from Georgia USA, but the stator cover came way before eBay's estimate.

What do you think? Slow to get here but less marking on the bearings than the German ones, the DK ones are a bit of an unknown quantity, but the cheapest if they'll split.

EDIT: DK won't split, so its an expensive cam that you can't see too well, with a free paperweight. Georgia then I think.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 15, 2018, 05:36:20 PM
Hmm .. the good think about DK is no quibble if you are not happy when you receive the item. If I want to negotiate anything I usually call and ask for Becky in eBay sales . The rest of them are usually too busy to talk to you but she's good at sorting stuff / deals out .. she may not even be there now but worth a try ....  it's about a year since I last 'negotiated' though.  They may even have other ones Dave, not listed yet. Always worth a try. If you have ever been there you really appreciate the tons of parts they have.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 05:46:54 PM
I spoke to Becky, she said she didn't think they would split them if they were being sold as a pair, but to message them so the partners could consider my offer, partners say no.

Hard tpo tell if its the light, but picture #2 seems to show one heck of a scuff on the lobe of the exhaust tacho side.

They have a couple of others but they aren't great. I appreciate the point about returns, they let me send an incomplete front brake cable back, no quibbles. I'd like to buy the best one I can first time if possible.

What do you think of the one in Georgia?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 15, 2018, 06:26:51 PM
From what you can see of the Georgian one it looks potentially good. It seems to have low to close to zero scuffing around the base circle,  indicating that it's been run with enough clearance / gap to avoid some of the problems they develop.

Has it any followers to go with it?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 06:48:45 PM
Quote
Has it any followers to go with it?

No, he had a set of CB350 ones, but searching through his other stuff, a very random selection, I found this cam:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1972-HONDA-CB450-EXHAUST-CAMSHAFT-CAM-DOHC-CB-450-CL450-CL/282847634324

Quite a bit more expensive than the other one, but probably the best one I've seen for sale. Pretty similar to the one I've got, apart from the bits missing on mine. 

Some of the extra may be because of the dampers though, which I will be replacing anyway. With carriage and import taxes (no surprises from Parcelfarce, which is how things should be) about £76 delivered. A lot, but with these things you should try to buy the best you can afford.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 15, 2018, 07:01:54 PM
That last one does look good.

It's a pain that often the depth of focus doesn't always cover the critical areas on them, but he seems to have caught it on that one. I'd agree with your assessment, that it looks the best of the ones seen so far. Although more cost,  if it offers the solution it gives a good resolution to your immediate problem.

It's a real shame that your original is so good, but bludgeoned. I don't know how they are assembled but there maybe (if you successfully replace it) a route for someone to modify that one to make it serviceable.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 15, 2018, 07:24:11 PM
Bought it.  :)

What on earth happened to my original we will never know. Once I get the replacement I am going to test how close to falling off that second chunk was. It could have really urinated on my French fries.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on February 15, 2018, 08:00:34 PM
Fingers crossed that it's as good as it looks.

Don't know if yove seen this https://m.facebook.com/Team-Hansen-Honda-116916108330930/ they're obviously getting the cams made,  so if the blanks are batch produced, could there by a supply route to get somewhere here to grind them with original profile.

Maybe a group buy solution if enough people could be interested and given that there's so much of a scarcity of good examples.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on February 16, 2018, 06:18:26 AM
I think I know what happened  >:(

Sometimes the cam bearing are stuck and the gasket between head and bearing like works like glue.
There are people out there who take a hammer and hit the cam sideways to get these bearings loose, instead of using a piece of wood and being gently.

I have at least 6 or 7 of these cam’s, 4 ex and 2 in. I think the ex cam bearing are sticking harder then the intakes, because of the heat.

Jensen
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: royhall on February 16, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
I think I know what happened  >:(

Sometimes the cam bearing are stuck and the gasket between head and bearing like works like glue.
There are people out there who take a hammer and hit the cam sideways to get these bearings loose, instead of using a piece of wood and being gently.

I have at least 6 or 7 of these cam’s, 4 ex and 2 in. I think the ex cam bearing are sticking harder then the intakes, because of the heat.

Jensen
Why do they stick Jensen, is it through lack of use?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 16, 2018, 09:26:38 AM
Jensen will correct me if I’m wrong but I think he’s not saying that the cam bearings have seized, but that they won’t come out, because the gaskets are stuck on to the head and bearing carrier. Heat and time make this much worse.

I had a huge problem with this with my CB750, when I couldn’t get the base gasket to unstick. At first I tried keyhole surgery with the barrel still attached to the crankcase, but eventually had to resort to force, fortunately without damage.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: jensen on February 17, 2018, 12:46:58 PM
Hi,

I won't correct you, you're right, that's what I meant  ;)
btw, sorry for my English, sometimes I can't find the right words or way to say it,
so it might be unclear what I'm talking about to someone else.

Jensen
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 01, 2018, 07:24:15 PM
I realise there are people freezing out there, but our current weather is frustrating- my cam has been on the other side of Manchester and due for delivery for the last two days, my parts order from DS is similarly somewhere out there stuck in a snowdrift.

If things can just get here by the weekend I can get on with the head.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 05, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
Very frustrating, as this weekend was the last chance for a while to be in the garage for any length of time. saturday we walked in the snows to a foodie pub, got there too early and carried on to another, for a few pints of Reverend James' and some crisps. By the time we floated back past the foodie pub, lunch was over, so we made do with the crisps we'd had.  :D  Sunday I mostly stayed in and watched the H&H auction online.

The cam came, eventually, all the way from Georgia, but my packet with oil seals, damper rings etc from D Silvers is somewhere out there in the postal backlog, so I can't fit anything yet.

As you can see, the replacement cam (nearest the camera) is in even better knick than my original, hardly a mark on it. Perhaps this is an upside of choosing a bike that was often used often as a 'toy', rather than commuting week in week out for years with indifferent maintainence.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/h3fbz7qx3/IMG_2351.jpg)

The stainless screws for the tank badges turned up, the first ones I'd bought were too short, although being the length Honda quote in the parts book. Anyhow I can now fit them to see how they look, one day the tank will be Menno's finest Candy Blue, of course. Badges are hard to find as it is (mine were long knicked), almost impossible with the '450' as well, so I'm chuffed with these, from California via eBay.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pyg69qnfb/IMG_2350.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on March 05, 2018, 06:27:59 PM
Nice buy,  it looks even better than the seller photos.

At least you can now be confident of the rebuild.

The original could still be useful to someone with the general condition being very good apart from the obvious. I suppose we look at it from a repair point of view as trying to reinstate to original, but it could be possible for someone to machine it down and make bespoke flanges to fit and make it useful again. I don't know the original construction method though.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 06, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Dave - did you sort airbox inners??:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F352297366516
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 06, 2018, 10:33:28 AM
What, you mean my new airboxes? Thanks for the heads up James, Ashley kindly offered me a pair of the plastic cases, but as these ones had both the mounting studs and those funny triangular rubber horns that are so $ extortionate to buy new, and were in the UK for a change (DK) I clicked 'buy it now' as soon as I saw them. The fact that the inlets are FUBAR doesn't matter, as I have new filters from the States.

My parcel from Silvers turned up yesterday, so I got the chance to nip in the garage last night for a bit while she watched 'Coro'.

I tried on the NOS gearlever, now the right shape to make those all too common curved gouges in the stator cover when you fall off, which I could also temporarily fit with the new screws (originals well butchered by the PO and his blunt random screwdriver) and o rings. I was disappointed that the screws aren't plated silver, by the way, they are black. I'd given the cover a polish, but it still has a 'spotty' finish, so I think I'll attack it with some P800 and repolish.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/7hm82agp3/IMG_2352.jpg)

I also fit the new kickstart seal and fastened up the primary side, then set about the cam damper rings. I thought they would take seconds to cut, but they had gone rock hard with age (actually, isn't that how they make rocks - take soft things and wait a VERY long time?) In the end I resorted to getting a part of each ring smoking with the blowlamp and piercing it with a small electrical screwdriver. Probably not best practice, but it worked.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/r0qtb4zvr/IMG_2355.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.cc/wc5pvuto7/IMG_2356.jpg)

In the bottom picture the rings on the exhaust cam have been changed, the inlet nearest the camera still has the originals. Its interesting that the inlet cam is all one casting, where the damper rings and sprocket on the exhaust is machined from a seperate piece of bronze material, I don't know why. The new rings are very soft, just as well as they have to stretch to fit, I'm sure they will work much quieter.

I'm sure my old cam could be reused, either without dampers or with the old rings, they are so hard I doubt they would make a bid for freedom. You couldn't remake just the retaining rings though as they are integral with the sprocket.

Finally I found some nice pictures of a restored very low mileage CL450 in the States to help inspire me, if I lived there I'd probably snap his hand off at $4,100, thats about three grand! Mine has the right tank badges on both sides though ;)

http://www.2040-motos.com/Honda/CL/honda-cl450-cl-450-scrambler-1968-k1-early-model-street-scrambler-7004/



 
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 06, 2018, 11:56:29 AM
Dave - sorry I meant the plastic covers. But I did notice the fittings / hardware so glad it helped...

J
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 08, 2018, 12:48:14 PM
It did help, James, thanks, my box from DK turned up yesterday so I got back in the garage last night to try them on.

I fitted one of my new copy filters into the plastic box, fine, then fitted it in place using the mounting stud and the front bolt.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wme75h387/IMG_2362.jpg)

Then the moment of truth, as I'm using bits off more than one bike, will the cover fit? Straight on, everything lined up including the new stainless screw, made in Italy, bought from California. If you're reading this James, where did you get your sidepanel badges? Does Piki do them or did you have to use the guy on eBay who sells a pack of 3 (in case you mess up) for a King's ransom?

(https://s5.postimg.cc/razakr9fr/IMG_2363.jpg)

Back to the engine, I was going to fit the oil filter cover, but I realised it had been chewed up by the brake pedal in an off (I got another, straighter pedal from DK as well, mine had been knocked back into shape with a sledgehammer apparently). The cover is scuffed too deeply to polish out, so I nipped back in and ordered a better one on eBay. 

The camchain idler wheel at the top had a lot of noisy sideplay and no rubber O ring between camwheel and spindle, so that got fixed, its nice and quiet now. Fit two O rings and it hardly moves at all, I must look more closely at the parts diagrams, and not waste money buying things I don't need.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/3wrb8v1t3/IMG_2358.jpg)

I then lubed and fitted the inlet valves, and fastened down those pesky oil seals. Then as I was in there, I fitted the torsion bars to the valves. There is a knockpin that locates the bar in the right place, a bolt goes through. I'd seen a post on the twins forum by Jensen saying not to force the arm over the knockpin, as that puts a sideways bending force on the valve, so I gently warmed the head to pull the pins out.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/uul8aleqf/IMG_2364.jpg)

It was then easy to turn the torsion bars so they held the collets in the right place, with a 14mm spanner, to get the knockpins and bolts back in.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/u52fy7r1j/IMG_2360.jpg)

Then in with the cam followers and eccentric spindles. I'd kept each valve and its hardware in a seperate freezer bag so nothing got mixed up. The red stuff is Redline assembly lube, buy the way, not my blood for once.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/e6tq834jb/IMG_2361.jpg)

This seemed a good time to pack up, but I was on a roll, and wanted to know if the inlet cam fit without any excessive sideplay, in case I needed a shim - there was none fitted on the inlet when it came apart, and it was the same cam and carriers, though the gasket thickness matters, that's how Jensen adjusts his sideplay.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/la1lnphon/IMG_2365.jpg)

I put the cam in with the backs of the lobes nearest the followers, it turns just as far as the timing mark. I found that taking all these pictures as it came apart came in handy to work out what screws went where, so  was glad I'm doing this writeup. Side clearance was 10 thou, within the acceptable range, so no shim needed.


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 08, 2018, 02:42:09 PM
Great progress Dave. Your posts do make me giggle... Looks like you've got good momentum now.

In terms of the side covers - I was really lucky with the blue bike. The side covers and badges were perfect. So before sending the covers to menno wit the tank I gently heated the reverse side of the panel with a hot air gun (to loosen the factory applied adhesive) and gently pried them off.

You might want to consider stripping/refurbishing yours?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 08, 2018, 05:09:49 PM
(http://You might want to consider stripping/refurbishing yours?)

I doubt I could as they are very weather faded. They aren't really stickers, more badges, but the hard part would be restoring the chrome finish on the silver bit.

I may have to give it a go with the silver polish though to see what happens, as $90 for incorrect stickers sent to the Uk is taking the mick, unless I can find two people who have an extra left from his set of three! :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-1968-CB450-CL450-SIDE-COVER-3-DECALS-EMBLEMS-GRAPHICS-AIR-BOX-COVER/292039903048

However that's cheap compared to the actual badges rather than vinyl stickers:

NOS Honda ones, only about £120 the pair posted  ::)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Original-Honda-1968-CB450K1-Side-Cover-Emblems/222858215635

I found another source of replicas http://kz900.com/emblems-hon.html $70 EACH plus carriage taxes etc - God's teeth!  >:( Are they carved from unicorn horns?

CMSNL list it for the CB450 K1 (same emblem) at Eu10, but at that price they have none of course.

You can get the whole bl**dy covers for less, but that doesn't help. I'm guessing not the easiest thing to replicate because of the metallic finish though, are you reading this Piki?

Thinking about it, it may not be beyond the wit of man to rechrome the buggers. I have a couple of other bits that need chroming like the cable guide between the bars, I found one but it's rusty.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: hairygit on March 08, 2018, 05:13:54 PM
I don't think Piki would have a problem with the chrome finish, he makes the chain info stickers for chain guards with that chrome like finish.

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 08, 2018, 06:01:51 PM
I just had a test rub with some Duragilt, and although the paint is very faded on the offside badge, the chrome comes up better than I expected.

I will persevere, as the paint is the easy bit due to the 3D nature of the badge, James may have saved me some serious cash by suggesting I restore them.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 09, 2018, 12:34:00 AM
What’s the badge made of, is it chromed monkey metal, in which case you could polish the finish off, or polished alloy?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 12, 2018, 05:48:32 PM
Dave - did you sort handlebars??... https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F112864587148
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 13, 2018, 12:52:13 PM
I know James, I got an eBay saved search alert on those this morning, meanwhile my much more expensive new SL350 bars have landed at East Midlands airport, from Long Beach CA, via Kentucky. Typical.

I see the UK seller fell victim to the smaller gap between the clamps on the CL350 - he should have used a jelly baby! I'll try my new ones first when they show up, but if there are problems I have these UK ones bookmarked. The chrome isn't as good but they are the right ones and in the UK - where were they when I needed them?  ::)

I was in the garage Sunday and last night, the engine is neary finished!

First I put the exhaust valve gear and cam in, then I set the tappet clearances on the backs of the cam lobes. I haven't checked now the head is on using the timing marks yet, it shouldn't have changed though. Left piston is at the TDC mark ready to time up the cams.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/mz0l1s5dz/IMG_2369.jpg)

Next I put the head over the studs, but I didnt want it to go all the way so I could thread the wires on the camchain though the rollers. I have no doubt that Honda will use a can of pickled crabs or something, and not Heinz Big Soup.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/coy62j7sn/IMG_2370.jpg)

Head on, chain up as far as the head, ready to thread the wire over the cam wheels and under the idler sprocket in the middle.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/b9wldsr9z/IMG_2372.jpg)

Once I had the chain in the right place and the cams on their marks I lockwired the chain ends together ready to fit the link. I used to use those lockwire pliers all the time when I did classic racing, they spin when you pull on a knob at the bottom.  Paper stuffed everywhere in case tiny chain parts fall in, which would be a disaster. The inlet cam was slightly pressing on a valve, which made it tricky to keep on the marks, it all wanted to jump a tooth.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/tph2b6xon/IMG_2375.jpg)

A moment of truth as I rivet the chain up, the tool's instructions in Chinese didn't help, I had to work it out for myself. There was just enough room, note the subtle but bang on cam timing marks on the right.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/pt3qf8f9z/IMG_2379.jpg)

The staking looks Ok to me, I turned it over a couple of times and the marks were right and it stayed tight.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/w6stihrvr/IMG_2382.jpg)

 I took the paper out of the inlets, fitted the inlet stubs ( softened from rock hard in Ashley's magic brew) and camchain tensioner, put the plugs in, kickstarter on - behold, compression!

(https://s5.postimg.cc/rm6n3gdaf/IMG_2385.jpg)

A bit more turning and oil came out of the filter housing, so the pump works.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9i3mivkrr/IMG_2383.jpg)

On with the filter cover I bought the other day on eBay, very quick delivery, very tight fit. New Honda screws.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/p3ky2u4fr/IMG_2384.jpg)

The kickstart return spring is a bit limp and rubbish, but it seemed to be on right, maybe I need to lubricate the new tight oil seal? I've found a few Honda Twins threads about this on the 450 and 350, so I'm not the only one, no definitive cure though.

I'd like to see if I can get oil at the top end, is there any reason why I can't use the CB750 battery direct to the starter?

Plugs in or out? (I don't want to burn the starter out!). I may strap the stand down to the bench if I do, I dont want the engine bouncing off the 911 bonnet really, that would take a lot of T-Cut to polish out.  :)





Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Johnwebley on March 13, 2018, 01:25:31 PM
I would go plugs out,and spin it up

 great pictures ,

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on March 13, 2018, 06:22:19 PM
Good progress,  and pictures.

I'd do the same,  plugs out and spin it if all set up ok.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 14, 2018, 02:40:46 PM
Looking at photos of the used CL450 bars for sale on eBay, I've realised that when my SL350 ones show up, the first thing I'm going to have to do is make a big hole in them, as there are no cables from the left hand  bar on the SL (there is a hole to locate the clutch lever peg). I reckon three large overlapping holes should give me the slot I want, I'll be mirroring what's on the other side. I may need to file any sharp edges I make though, I don't want to make a short circuit.

Last night I redadjusted the valve clearances with the rotor on the TDC marks, two were a bit tight, the other two were fine.

Then, as suggested, I took the plugs out and connected the CB750 battery direct to the starter motor and earth. I had cleaned and checked the starter, still it was probably the first time it had been used in years, so I was glad to find it worked OK.

(https://s5.postimg.org/9l6c88m3b/IMG_2386.jpg)

As suggested in the manual, I took one of the nuts off on the head studs where there is a copper washer, and waited until oil appeared. Then I kept turning until I saw it at the camshafts:

(https://s5.postimg.org/mckieqo5j/IMG_2387.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.org/ui2kcwrtz/IMG_2389.jpg)

I stopped once the battery was getting flat and the cables were hot. I was tempted to have another go once the battery is recharged, but I'm not sure what the point would be. I know oil is going where it should, it will get plenty more when it is running under its own steam I hope.

Next I'll fit and static time the points, I'm more or less done with the motor then.

I notice I'm missing a large O ring in the chaincase cover where the oil filter end cap goes in - theres a new one on the cap, but there should be one in the case too. I'm damned if I'm paying a £6 delivery charge on it though, so it will have to wait until I inevitably need more bits from Mr Silver. There ought to be better oil pressure with it in place, there wasn't one there when I stripped it, looking at the photos.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 16, 2018, 03:10:32 PM
I found there was an O ring in the clutch cover when I took it off, so I fitted that for now. I was disappointed to find the right inlet cam bearing cover (left) was leaking oil when I went back in the garage:

(https://s5.postimg.cc/hr424a4mf/IMG_2390.jpg)

That manky screw at the bottom wasn't the correct one, I found a longer one and swapped it. I couldn't take the cover right off, as it supports the cam, but pulled it out far enough to apply a smear of sealant with a screwdriver tip.  All tightened up I have cranked the motor over some more to test for oil tightness, it appears to be OK now. The last thing I want is a leaky Honda, my mates with Brit bikes at the BMPS would never let me hear the last of it.

My bars turned up from California at last this morning, for a 1970 SL350 they measure the same as James' CL ones in every way apart from the width, at 820mm the same as the ones on his 500.

Thery don't look over wide on the bike, and the reinforced centre tube will fit between the clamps OK.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/wn2lbvnqv/IMG_2392.jpg)

As predicted I will need to make a slot for the cables on the clutch side, as there are none on an SL. Top are my bars, below a photo I pinched from the listing for a pair of CL450 bars on eBay.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/8jbtnkpuf/IMG_2394.jpg)

(https://s5.postimg.cc/4myhrls07/cls-l1600.jpg)

I don't know yet if my existing pull backs (for sale if you need a pair) have holes drilled for the lever mount locating pins, the pins may have been ground off the switchgear. Once I start on the chassis I can have fun making holes for and pulling through the cables, at the moment they live outside the handlebars, which looks messy.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 21, 2018, 11:34:23 AM
Dave - have you seen these repro badges??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-CB450-K1-68-SIDE-COVER-BADGE-NEW-REPRODUCTION/301815653954?hash=item46459d6642:g:Pg4AAOSwDNdVpC~b&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 21, 2018, 04:18:28 PM
I’ve got them on my watch list, but considering the cost plus postage from Oz, I’m going to give my originals a go at restoration, once I’ve finished the engine. I’ve bought satin black and the nearest red I could get from the car spares shop.

Once I’ve used heat to get the badges off, it’s all down to what happens with the polishing wheel- is the finish just on the surface or will it polish up shiny?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: JamesH on March 21, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Haven’t tried refurbishing one yet - may be worth polishing the reverse side first (the glue side) to see how the material takes to polishing?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 19, 2018, 09:40:37 AM
I don't know why the photos are now taking an age to load, probably using a free service from postimage in a post photobucket world. Something has changed from .org to .cc, if you need anything reposted let me know. But lets not get cross about photobucket again....

I got close to finishing the engine, but at the moment it has no transmission. I removed the clutch and the alloy bodied pump, I'm damned if I can find the 'gudgeon pin' from the original pump though. It has to be in the gargage somewhere, but not where I can find it, its probably got dropped and rolled off under something, I'll find it one day, in the meantime I've ordered a new one.

Its time to have a go at the chassis, as I want to send the tank, panels, ears and headlamp off to Menno for some candy magic.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/74ekfqduv/IMG_2474.jpg)

I bought a couple of K70s from Vintage Tyres, only when about to fit one last night did I check to find they hadn't included the new rim tapes and tubes, and I don't trust ancient rubber for a moment with anything important. To be fair I  emailed them at 7pm, 7am this morning I got an apology and a message to say tubes and tapes are on their way.   

I got the front tyre off only after a physical battle. It turns out to be from 1990, a US ribbed Dunlop, and after getting comfy for nearly 30 years did not want to be evicted, It's off now though. It shows that bike was on the road much later than I expected because of the apparent low mileage on the engine, it was already 20 years old when that tyre went on. Maybe it got an engine issue fixed and ressurected for a while, as someone had been in there. I've wondered if that camchain idler wheel spindle that wasn't located with its knockpin made a row as it moved aound, there was a witness mark at both ends on the barrel skirts. It is quite possible that somene spent a bit of time and money on the bike, only to have it still make a horrid engine noise, and just gave up on it.

The rear tyre is a worn Japanese Dunlop, I haven't found a date yet, maybe its the original, I don't know.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5pczr0khj/IMG_2476.jpg)

Brake shoes were OEM Honda, lots of dust but in good nick, however I have ordered new Vesrah ones as I dont want linings going adrift.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 30, 2018, 11:20:31 AM
This has been taking a back seat while the CB750 got sorted, but now I have to get on with it, so I can get the front end apart and the fork ears off to Menno, along with the headlamp tank and side panels.

As they are steel, I was able to warm the panels with a blowlamp to get the badges off, which I am going to try and refurbish. Once off, there was a glimpse of original 1969 candy blue. It may be handy for Menno, though the brief will be 'the same as James'' as far as the colour goes.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/o1pqvr7w7/IMG_25130.jpg)

The motor came off the workbench, still on the stand its now wrapped in one of those charity bags that come through the door, and stored out of the way.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/ybs5uz2wn/IMG_2495.jpg)

One side of the front wheel, a fork leg and the brake plate are like new, the other side had caught the sun badly and all the laquer had gone yellow and crusty. It all came off with P400 and elbow grease, the hub plate polished up lovely on the wheel - they used decent alloy for all the stick they get about 'monkey metal'. Those spokes are as I got them, the bike must have been kept somewhere very dry, no rust at all.

Here it is with a new K70 being fitted, with a new tube and tape as well, of course.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/z1ay7cb5z/IMG_2498.jpg)

Every time I fit a tyre its like I've forgotten all the lessons I've ever learned before, if I did it all day I'd be good at it. I used to watch the Dunlop fitters in the Superbike paddock, they made it look like child's play, though the right gear works a lot better than my three knackered tyre levers and the 'borrowed' washing up liquid.

 
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Green1 on April 30, 2018, 07:37:10 PM
What are you on about James? Cable tie  ???
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Johnwebley on April 30, 2018, 07:45:28 PM


  James ,that bike looks great,
 Is it my imagination,but the clocks look the wrong way around ,the tacho drive is on the right of the motor,but the clock on the left,

 are most Hondas speedo left,tacho right ???
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on April 30, 2018, 08:06:06 PM
What are you on about James? Cable tie  ???

How to mount motorcycle tire with zipties: http://youtu.be/S6WPzRRJLpA

Probably this above as a method.

Just a small point about using washing up liquid,  it contains salts for cleaning usually which isn't in commercial tire products and may promote corrosion on old chrome rims or bare alloy.  A ready alternative could be car shampoo.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Green1 on April 30, 2018, 08:52:45 PM
Looking at some of those videos I'm not totally convinced its easier.
But when its time to change mine I will give it a go. I should think it helps with removing the rock hard prehistoric ones.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on April 30, 2018, 09:55:29 PM
What are you on about James? Cable tie  ???

How to mount motorcycle tire with zipties: http://youtu.be/S6WPzRRJLpA

Probably this above as a method.

Just a small point about using washing up liquid,  it contains salts for cleaning usually which isn't in commercial tire products and may promote corrosion on old chrome rims or bare alloy.  A ready alternative could be car shampoo.
Looked at that and I don't have enough tattoos to do it!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on May 01, 2018, 11:33:49 PM
Thanks for the pictures, James, I can confirm that my 1969 K1 has the clocks the same way round as yours. Last night I was just thinking what a lovely finished casting the top yoke was when I looked under the speedo bracket to find the mounting lug snapped clean off, probably in the same crash that wiped out the original plastic speedo.  :o

(https://s5.postimg.cc/5788tfdcn/IMG_2534.jpg)

Replacement found, £30 offer accepted on eBay. Covered in black paint, but with a less rusty cable bracket than the one I've got.

The tinware wrapped like an oven ready chicken, ready to go to Menno.

(https://s5.postimg.cc/9gcyvlobr/IMG_2535.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on September 24, 2018, 03:56:10 PM
Well here we are again, the CL450 hasn't been forgotten, but I've been busy.

Menno has painted the tank and panels, and is now straightening the headlamp ears. Here's the bodywork after the acid bath:

(https://i.postimg.cc/52PbnWkN/DSCF9336.jpg)

I had a go at the chainguard, that trendy metallic purple caused a reaction like a child's chemistry set, so the paint stripper is going to be needed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQdQvXD4/IMG_3238.jpg)

Next some tyre fitting. I got a bad back for my troubles, but we now have a new set of K81's on board. The orginal Japanese Dunlop rear tyre was made of / with rayon, apparently!

(https://i.postimg.cc/529fB2gR/IMG_3234.jpg)

The front rim and spokes are VGC, the rear spokes have lost their finish, and someone has scratched the rim, apparently fixing a puncture using a carving knife. However when I cleaned up the hub, I was greeted with this sight:

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqHrS3Wk/IMG_3235.jpg)

There are no new or restored parts here, just original 1969 finishes under a layer of dirt - confirmation that this bike saw very little service.

I had the frame upside down, to get the stand off and swap out the bent brake pedal for another one, so I gave it a cleanup and some paint.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVLMJH7t/IMG_3240.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on September 27, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
The chainguard came up well after stripping it back to bare metal, speaking of which, my enthusiasm for the project has been 100% boosted by these pictures of wonderfulness taken in Menno's garden, which arrived this morning.

(https://i.postimg.cc/q71M4BSK/DSCF9584.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpVFBRnc/DSCF9585.jpg)

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on September 27, 2018, 05:15:03 PM
Awesome!!!!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 01, 2018, 12:08:18 PM
Yesterday was a watershed moment for the project, as I ended the day with more parts attached to the frame rather than less for the first time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2qPb6hQ/IMG_3263.jpg)

I fitted the centre stand, a new spring and the brake lever, then the chainguard, with some hassle. Only this morning have I read what a bugger it is to fit with the swinging arm in its usual place, so I got off lightly by accident. I bolted up the shock lower mounts, there are no nuts (the mounts have threaded holes), but there should be, when I have an idea if what other bits I still need  I'll order them along with a new swinging arm grease nipple - the same knock in type as i fitted on the CB750, and just as bunged up. The shocks are the original Decarbon gas shocks - I guess I'll find out what damping is left in them when I get the rolling chassis together, if shot I'll have to replace them with modern pattern ones, unless they can be rebuilt by someone (deos anyone know?) They look the same as CB750 ones, if they measure the same I may get another set of TEC ones.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wxFDkP6W/IMG_3266.jpg)

I turned the frame the right way up and tried to change the head bearings for taper rollers, so I could fit the yokes. The top race popped clean out after some heat and a few whacks, but unfortunately the lower race is stuck after not coming wanting to come out square, I'm going to look for a small cutting wheel I can put in my drill to cut a piece out, as I can't get my angle grinder in there. I managed to lump hammer my thumb, which turned blue, as did my language.

The fork leg lowers aren't polished yet but I spent a couple of hours grafting away with P800 wet and dry to get a nice finish. I had a dilemma with the left one - if you look at the third photo on page one, it was in almost pristine original finish, but with badly yellowed laquer. I was tempted to leave it be, but in the end I want a matching pair, the other leg had lost its finish to damp over the years and needed refurbishing.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 01, 2018, 06:37:19 PM
Progressing well Dave ... I went to see the one DS had one but by the time I got to his building with all of the used bikes in it, he had just sold it. Evidently he sold loads of bikes during the 50th CB750 anniversary event .
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 04, 2018, 10:52:25 AM
Last night I polished the dirt off the rear mudguard, there was some surface rust at the front, behind the air cleaners, but the chrome was excellent where you can see it, no pits or scratches other than the patina (ie crash damage) at the tip, under where the number plate will go.

I haven't seen a used guard for sale on Ebay in as good condition, there's lots of rusty or dented mingers, and one thing that makes me glad I started with a complete bike is that when I couldn't find one of the special chrome mounting bolts, I persevered until I found it, as I knew it was definitely in the garage somewhere!

(https://i.postimg.cc/SQn6CCBT/IMG_3268.jpg)

This is how I left things, all the indicator / rear light wires just plugged straight back in again, and tucked up under their clips on the mudguard. I also successfully polished the rear lamp lens with Autosol to remove fine scratches and a layer of crud. The pattern seat pan doesn't have a mount for the 'prop' to hold it open (although the rear 'hinge' just bolted straight on, and the front catch works fine), I need to sort that seat prop out, maybe using a cable tie and a couple of well placed holes. Edit - maybe plus lockwire, or maybe just lockwire may be wiser - I'm nervous about drilling though. I don't want to take the new seat apart, I'm sure the cover would never fit the same again, but then I don't want to set it on fire, either.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 08, 2018, 02:46:32 PM
One of these things is not like the other.........

I fitted the new air cleaners into their boxes and fitted them to the frame, then I polished the fork lowers, and fitted the tubes into the lower yokes, after installing a taper roller bearing headstock kit. That's when I found out the replacement top yoke doesn't fit, it is only a smidgeon (1 or 2 mm) different in its spacings, but the new one definitely doesn't fit, while the original (with the broken speedo bracket) goes straight on - they clearly changed the geometry just a touch, so you have to use yokes in matched pairs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g29NMCj1/IMG_3288.jpg)

The difference isn't obvious from above, but its in the spacing between the recess for the handlebar clamp and the hole for the fork nut. It's more noticable when you turn it over:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbq5wNNM/IMG_3287.jpg)

My original (left) is noticeably smaller when they are next to one another, look at the webbing around the centre boss, and again the gap between the bar mount hole and the fork hole - in this case there is a small web on the larger version that is virtually non existent with the smaller one. I think (based on my 1018XXX frame number and late 1969 build) that my bike started life as a K2, but somehow got bastardised into a K1/2 mish mash - so I don't know for sure that I need a K2 yoke, but I think so. CMS have a couple of new ones, but I won't bite based on just a part number, because they can be a bit precious about taking stuff back, especially if you want to argue the toss about whose fault it was that you got the wrong part in the first place.

Listings don't make these things clear, currently DK has a smaller yoke (but sadly no instrument mounts) listed as '69 on', and one of the larger ones which purports to fit 68-69, but not mine. This is possibly K1 only. Later (k3 on) they went to a 'full size' hole for the upper fork leg, rather than a taper into a smaller hole which the top bolt goes through.

I would have posted this in 'desperately seeking', but it appears to have disappeared with Steve's reorganisation. Any parts, leads or insight would be appreciated.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: hairygit on October 08, 2018, 02:58:27 PM
Desperately Seeking is still there, I just looked. I'm on a computer rather than a mobile or tablet, there are limitations with mobile devices I've found.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 08, 2018, 03:15:15 PM
Tha's strange, it wasn't there earlier, maybe Steve was trimming the flux capacitor. I'll post this in there in the off chance that anyone has a K2 yoke lying about.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 09, 2018, 04:38:56 PM
Dave - that’s such a subtle (but annoying) change between the consecutive model years. I’ll keep my eyes peeled and If I spot anything will send a link. Have you tried calling DK and asking if they have or plan to break any K1’s?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 09, 2018, 05:06:32 PM
bummer ... I was hoping lugs be same on 250/350K0/1 Dave as they use very similar clocks but very different lugs.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on October 09, 2018, 08:32:55 PM
Changing that dimension,  the offset, will alter the steering feel if the rake/trail etc remain constant.

Further out would give move weight and resistance to moving from straight ahead compared to the smaller offset.

Could it be specific to CL kitted bikes compared to road orientated setup? In other words,  would the CL with lower gearing/less top speed,  have more agile geometry installed compared to other models.

If you can't find another,  is a bottom set available to match the intact one?

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 10, 2018, 07:51:22 AM
Have you tried Mark Gaskin at Govnors Bridge Dave? ... just that I bought a set of CL450 ' 69 coils off him at an autojumble a couple of months back... That guy has to be one of the fairest and decent blokes IMHO in the UK for used parts. The likes of DK out to take a lesson from his book ... price fairly and consistently and you will shift a lot of spares quickly.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 12, 2018, 07:27:07 PM
Dave...as per Pm.

James

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/e7973de51ab446a00c70094170104351.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/541ea2e0206fa68bf32888ed1b6f4c91.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/d0ecc1db9c3530783be44aba76780d93.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/9c46d1fdaedc4c8beb1be13858256724.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/65d39f74ad77ff08804cd455d78a19ed.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/fd359ec732d7ba08e51d29d45a9770e8.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 15, 2018, 11:49:57 AM
I didn't get much done this weekend, what with Marsden Jazz Festival and the PCGB's Peak District run on Sunday in the 911, but I did get the front end on...

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ScmmwLF/IMG-3296.jpg)

What we have established so far regarding the forks is:

There seems to be a difference between CB and CL yokes, probably different geometry as suggested by K2-K6.

To add to the fun they changed the CL yokes at least twice, my parts book shows the numbers change at 1012469, which is prior to my K2 number. We have established that my bike is a K2 in K1 clothing for some reason, which suits me as it looks much better for it.

My (sold as) CB450 K1 top yoke doesn't fit. Possibly its wrong on two counts, then, CB, and K1!

Although I have a broken instrument mount, what I do currently have is a matching front end which all came off the same low mileage bike. If for example I fitted James' K1 yokes, I'd definitely have a matching pair, but mixing K1 with late K2 may not work - the forks would (probably - there seem to be different fork tops too)) fit perfectly but would the front axle or the mudguard still fit?

I think you'd have to have the parts in the same room to be sure, can someone suggest an accurate way to measure between hole centres?

You see my dilemma, however I'm not too fussed for now. My project end date is next November, the bike's 50th birthday, I want her back on the road by then, someone will break a late K2 before that date, I will be watching the web.



Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on October 15, 2018, 12:03:34 PM
For centres measure from the outside of one hole to the inside of the other
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 15, 2018, 12:31:52 PM
Thanks Bryan, that makes sense.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on October 15, 2018, 01:59:57 PM
If using a vernier caliper,  you can just clamp it bore edge to bore edge then add one diameter to the measurement (as you are missing two radii) that'll give you the centre to centre number.

Just turn the clamp bolts on the yokes to set the diameter to that of the fork tubes first if they've been wedged open to get the stantions out.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 15, 2018, 03:56:40 PM
Dave - assume you don’t need the set I have here? J
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 15, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
James, would  it be possible to measure between the fork legs, and from the fork hole to the bar mounts?

If the top yoke measures the same (also stem forward to the forks), it’ll fit if the instrument mounts are the same, I definitely can use it, otherwise no.

I need to give my yoke a coat of measuring so we can compare what we have
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 15, 2018, 09:04:03 PM
Dave no problem, I’ll grab the tape measure tomorrow and pop to the garage and get some dimensions...
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 17, 2018, 04:35:19 PM
Thanks James, I appreciate it.

I fitted the front mudguard last night, it cleaned up nicely. a bit of dirt but no rust.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yNVzLjV/IMG-3299.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nhsnT42V/IMG-3300.jpg)

Menno's box is on its way from Germany, it should be here on Friday.
Title: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 17, 2018, 08:45:56 PM
Dave,

I measure the following:

Fork spacing (centre to centre): 175mm

Fork offset (stem centre to stanchion centre): 55mm (need to double check this in the am - could be 60mm)..!

Gauge mount hole separation: 100mm

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/185627d6794782a0ac058f56ad3a6e73.jpg)

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/ae620c10bfa30c01596b74ae455e4bfb.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/742027e564d84ec7f124c62bdee90fe1.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181017/7fbea706cf3d4cd2da436ea2a53cb983.jpg)


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 18, 2018, 05:59:01 PM
Mine are definitely also 175mm between centres, like you say the offset it hard to measure. I cant measure between the clock mounts as I only have one! The webbing looks to be the smaller type too.

It looks to be the same yoke James, I'll use it if I may. I'm guessing the one I bought was for a CB450K1, that's up for sale if anyone needs one. I don't need the bottom yoke, I've got the taper roller bearing on mine, and it would cost a ton to post anyway. Let me know by pm what you want for the yoke and where to send it, Ill send you my address.

I did some fishing in the bars last night, threading the wires through after starting with a string and a nut tied on the end. After getting that though, you tie in round your wires and pull gently.

(https://i.postimg.cc/65hScRr2/IMG-3301.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwC5chFq/IMG-3302.jpg)

So much neater than visible wires! Early switches are nice, like most things they took a few years to get ugly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qvMF5Rwm/IMG-3304.jpg)

I thought someone had painted the stanctions silver, until I looked closely and realised it was the original finish.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLrhThfX/IMG-3307.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 19, 2018, 07:43:22 AM
Drop me a Pm Dave with your number..


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 23, 2018, 05:29:21 PM
Rather than change both yokes for James' K1 ones I am sticking out for a CL450 K2 alloy top yoke, so I know there will be no unpleasant surprises. If you see one on the bay of fleas or anywhere else, let me know.

In the meantime the box of wonderful things arrived from Menno in Germany.

It didn't take long for me to go in the garage to find the box with the badges in,

(https://i.postimg.cc/02XwhXkD/IMG-3312.jpg)

After that, you try stopping me trying it on!

(https://i.postimg.cc/y8wS8JSN/IMG-3313.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxZq0C5t/IMG-3316.jpg)

As the bike is being built in a location officially described as 'in the way' I am forgoing fitting the back wheel and engine for now, just to keep the project managable as I move it around (and around it). You can imagine how tempted I am to put the engine back in and those lovely pipes on though.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 23, 2018, 06:56:18 PM
Looking great Dave. Who did the seat re-cover for you with the metallic piping?


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Davelu88 on October 23, 2018, 08:04:13 PM
Bikes looking good & paintwork  looks great , im hoping for my box from Germany will come soon  ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on October 24, 2018, 01:06:41 PM
Another shot showing the seat with the tank, it came new from Texvina in Vietnam, James, its extra with the silver strip, if anyone orders, the cheaper priced version doesn't have it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tgNsF7P/IMG-3314.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on October 24, 2018, 03:42:35 PM
Looks a very decent copy Dave. Good job..


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 06, 2018, 02:26:12 PM
Well we've been at this for nearly a year now, the first photos of the bike as delivered are dated 16 November 2017. I never wanted to finish it too quickly, as a man needs a hobby, I'd only go and buy another project ( classic VW camper van anyone?). However it is 50 next year, so it would be nice to resurrect her for her Golden Jubilee, it could even show up at Crich 2019.

I had a go at restoring the side panel badges, and soon realised that the best result I was going to get was 'less scruffy' - although the faded painted sections are recessed and therefore easy to do, the plated sections were very tatty and finely scratched.

In the end I decided that as the newly painted side panels were so nice, tatty badges were just going to let the bike down. At that point I picked up my iPad, and ordered the expensive new ones from BadgeReplicas Australia. That was Friday night, so I was quite surprised that they turned up with the postman today (Tuesday)! Postage wasn't cheap but obviously you get the service you pay for. It took me two days to get there myself. I also had constant emails updating me of progress. No taxes or duties, which was good. Cheaper badges are available on eBay, but beware, the ones sold in threes are stickers, not the same at all.

These are super quality, thicker than the originals but very nice chrome and paint. One of the originals is shown for comparison.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W35Dm0Jg/IMG-3387.jpg)

After that it was only a matter of time before I stuck them on. The new centre grommet and screw are from an Italian CB450 kit I bought on eBay, strangely enough supplied from California.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yMmqZP3/IMG-3388.jpg)

If my mate the human engine hoist (6ft 7) is available Saturday, I may lob the engine back in, which should really get me going again.

No top yoke yet, but I'm not fussed as James has a pair of K1 ones, and Silvers actually list the K2 one as available NOS! As my chassis is a K2 number I reckon it must fit, but we will see. Or eBay will provide, it hasn't let me down yet, apart from the odd non fitting part. Meanwhile I put the original on, if you fasten one end of the guage bracket you can't see the other end is missing, which is how I bought it. When I finally do something about it and fit the yoke / damper etc, any recommendations for fork oil? The manual says use ATF, but I've also read that its about SAE 5W and rubbish at damping.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on November 06, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
Fork oil is a bit of a mystery realy, back then specific fork oil did not exist and atf tended to be specified as it did not "froth" like ordinary oil. Personally i would try 10w fork oil and see how it works, you can then go thinner or thicker and, compared to what has already been spent, does not cost the earth.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 06, 2018, 06:21:36 PM
Thanks Bryan, I've ordered a litre of 10W - there's 295cc in each leg so 500cc isn't enough. I'm pretty sure that I put ATF in the CB750, without problem, but if I go off road on the CL450 its going to get a hard time.

I need to pm Nurse Julie and order an O-ring / filter kit for my petcock, as they will have gone rock hard.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on November 06, 2018, 07:04:27 PM
Dont forget to replace the washers under the holding screws or fuel will leak straight through. I have used 6mm dowty type with cap screws before now with sucess.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on November 06, 2018, 07:16:40 PM
They are basically the same I think. 

The reason for 5 viscosity is that it's easier to maintain that over a huge temperature range without intervention chemically.  So automatic transmissions and hydraulic systems (dampers) have the same properties demanded. The systems are designed from the beginning to work with lower viscosity rather than being a compromise.
Both also need anti-foam to prevent aeration,  this is usually some type of silicon polymer as I understand it.

To this point they could be considered the same.

Fork oil then adds PTFE (also named as Teflon if they pay money to use the trade description)  this is to reduce stiction,  the effect of still moving the fork's sliding bearings while trying to bend them backwards under braking load.

Most bikes are going to be ok on 5 or 10 but if you go too high it won't be the spring that resists compression of the fork but hydraulic locking.  It'll make the front bob up and down by using the tire as a spring.

Don't think ATF uses PTFE as it'll not help the clutches in the autobox.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 07, 2018, 05:58:24 PM
You learn stuff every day on here :)

In other news I am hoping to get the back brake drum polished later tonight, so I can refit the back wheel and have a rolling chassis again, but my plans to get the engine back in on Saturday may be put on hold as the engine hoist is broken - the wife visited him today with a Birthday present for his girlfriend, to find him laid up with a bad back!

Lugging around my CL450 engine probably isn't high on the things he'd like to do list at present, especially if wriggling it about to get the starter motor to clear the front frame tube at the same time as clearing the top rail is as much faff on the way back in as it was on the way out. I'm not doing it myself, as then we'd both have a dodgy back - older people and old bikes are a dodgy mix sometimes, I used to think nothing of pulling big Brit twin engines out on my own.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 12, 2018, 03:32:30 PM
Serious milestone on Saturday, as the engine went back in!

Here is my glamorous assistant, his back was better, and I did help as much as I could.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHW0m5B6/IMG-3392.jpg)
Considering the struggle we had getting the thing out, we were both a bit surprised as to how easily it went back in. I guess learning what snagged on the way out helped us avoid problems, also I didn't bother with loads of foam or material, we decided touching up any scratches would be easier.

(https://i.postimg.cc/25hCnfvP/IMG_3393.jpg)

Putting on a load of parts now, just to see what it would look like one day when finished, just to take them off again to get on with the rebuild, would be silly, but... oh sod it!

(https://i.postimg.cc/13L9gzgG/IMG_3395.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nz1ZwY32/IMG_3396.png)

Knowing just how good looking it's going to be will keep me motivated over the long winter nights. As good looking as any other CL I've seen, almost exactly a year since I bid on the barn find.

My mate, at 6'7" pointed out how small it all looks, I'm 'only' 6 foot, but sitting on it she feels small to me - it's a long time since I had a bike less than 500cc. The carbs have gone off to another mate for an ultrasonic bath - one was clean inside, the other full of fur.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 07, 2018, 12:47:33 PM
Not much happened this month, but I was rewarded for my patience when a 1969 CL450 top yoke popped up on the bay Stateside, its now on its way here but not expected until early January. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS6p6d1H/s-l1600.jpg)

It seems to be identical to the one on the bike, apart from the damaged bracket, here's hoping.

My accidentally bought CB450 K1 yoke is up on there now, but I won't break the rules and link to it.

My mate Mark, who is a professional bike restorer and trader, and picked up the bike for me from Summerbud in his van a year ago, came round on a rare visit the other day, he said he can't believe it's the same bike!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Andych on December 07, 2018, 11:02:11 PM
That is a wonderful colour.. and I just love the CL look, they are so classy with the high exhaust.
You are doing a wonderful job.. cant wait to see the fully finished article :)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 10, 2018, 01:18:28 PM
Thanks Andy. More news from the front, I'm trying to make the most of having room to work in the garage for a change, as my 911 has gone off to Cheshire Sport Classics, who are trying to find a new home for it. They sold two 3.2s last month, even though its hardly the right time of year for it. Their website has a large portfolio of photos that they took, and on their Facebook page are pictures of an ex James Hunt F1 car that they are restoring for a client, though sadly not on site so I haven't seen it yet (I think its the McLaren M26 that sold for $1.2 million a couple of years ago, the car he had his last win in). I wonder if it has an ashtray?

Although the bike looks more or less complete in the earlier pictures, that was just a rough build to see if everything fit Ok and what it would look like, the first thing I had to do was strip a lot of bits off again, but this time I'm doing it properly for keeps, so it all feels like positive progress now.

First I finished putting the engine in, there wasn't a toolbox on the bike when I got it, so I've fitted one from eBay, that came complete with the toolkit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d35NnXYk/IMG_3442.jpg)

Unfortunately, looking in the manual I've fitted the earth lead to the wrong bolt, it should be the upper one between the toolbox and frame lug, so it will have to come off again. I had wondered about the conductivity of the engine enamel.

There is an issue with the kickstart, it works fine but there is no positive stop to stop the lever going too far forward until it touches the engine or footrest, desite a new spring. I know its not right, but as the answer will be inside the cases I think, I'll leave it for now and see if its an issue when the bike is running. If a common problem it may explain why I've seen a couple of CLs with no kickstart fitted. Its not as though I need one, the Harley hasn't got one at all, although kickstarting a 1200 twin would probably give me a heart attack.

Next I decided that working brakes would help. I took the back wheel off and refurbished the brake, as it was working but sticking on. Cleaning up the spindles and reassembling with copper grease did the trick at the same time I cleaned up and polished the brake plate while it was bare.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pTY65rcB/IMG_3448.jpg)

I also ordered a chain, as once its fitted I can put the gearbox sprocket cover on properly and fit the clutch cable.

Next the front brake.

It didn't want to adjust at all when I fitted the new cable, then I realised the lever and linkage were on inside out, sadly revealing some hidden rust, so I need to do a little more cleaning and painting. All will be good in the end though, now I have a working front brake.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxgwBchV/IMG-3447.jpg)

I haven't got the front wheel spindle in correctly, as the wheel has a little lateral play, looking just now at the parts book to see if I was missing a spacer, I see that the spindle goes in from the other side, and that hexagonal spacer is back to front, so I think that's my problem.

Finally I put the coils and Ebay'd horn on (the original was missing), and stared to connect the wiring up. Good news is that the ignition switch works and the key fits the steering lock as well, I need to get a spare cut.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yjv8kN2/IMG-3446.jpg)

The bad news is that missing from the little tag to the right of the switch is the flasher relay. It and its mounting rubber, being the same part as used on the sandcast CB750 only seem available for silly money  ( an unforseen drawback when restoring a 1969 Honda), I'm wondering if I can fit one of these instead as it will be mostly out of sight: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turn-Signal-Indicator-Flasher-Relay-For-Honda-CB750-750-C-750-F-750-K-750-Custom/113275757693
For the sharp eyed, the missing head steady nut, by the way, is the one I had to cut off before I could get the engine out, I need to remember to order one when my 'parts still needed' list is ready to go.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on December 13, 2018, 06:03:44 PM
Dave - check out this video on Facebook...

https://www.facebook.com/Silodrome/videos/1049326548469289/

Look at 1:32 - wonder if that’s one of our CL450’s?


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on December 13, 2018, 06:04:30 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/476117316340788f770ea75a205efa89.jpg)


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 16, 2018, 12:22:28 PM
I've not seen it for many years, but I'm pretty sure that's a clip from On Any Sunday, produced by Steve McQueen's Solar Productions. Mert Lawill features a lot, a friend of mine has one of his Harley XR750s in a custom frame and gives it an airing on dirt tracks against modern bikes from time to time. Its not competitive, but sounds magnificent!

That could be one of your CL's James but not mine, its too young! (1969). One wonders why he fitted a CB exhaust, maybe he'd already crushed the original. Hillclimbing could explain why my rear mudguard has vertical gravel rash, as if the bike has been flipped backwards.

I've been busy in the garage again, I just had a disaster trying to adjust the clutch when the handlebar adjuster didn't want to move, when it did it broke the threaded part of the *&^% switch. Feck! I've just been looking on eBay, you can buy whole switches for daft money, I only need the bottom part, which I can take the horn switch out of. If anyone has a used one please let me know before I do something expensive. I'm off to post in 'Desperately Seeking' now.



Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 17, 2018, 12:25:53 PM
Switch lower half sorted, thanks Ashley, meanwhile here's some photos taken at the close of play yesterday. I know there are more parts on the bike in the earlier photos, but this time its not a rough build to see how it looks, these parts are on properly, for keeps, I hope.

(https://i.postimg.cc/65ftTJHG/IMG-1293.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHFmLWqC/IMG-1294.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkWGYkKW/IMG-1295.jpg)

There is now light at the end of the tunnel (hopefully not an oncoming train), I hope to be on the road in time for Crich, and of course the bike's 50th birthday later in the year.

A box of small bits came from D Silver this morning, I have nearly everything needed now, although I've heard nothing from my mate who I gave the carbs to for an ultrasonic bath. I have yet to buy a battery, but I'll wait until I'm ready to try and start her, phone camera at the ready of course.
Title: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on December 18, 2018, 05:41:57 PM
That’s looking really tidy Dave. Great progress...


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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 31, 2018, 03:40:55 PM
Thanks James.

I got the carbs back from the friend who was ultrasonically cleaning them, although they came back cleaner the jets were still blocked up and crusty.

After a bit more cleaning by hand I tried to get the jets out, only to find they were well stuck, rather than chew up the soft brass with a screwdriver or damage the carb bodies  I went for the heat option with my blowlamp. I didn't get off to a good start, applying a little heat to the posts that hold the pin for the float, the solder came undone and the float fell off its mounting tab! I could try and resolder it, but I think my float height could be right up the spout if it doesn't go back exactly right, plus the seam around the float may come apart. They are available new from DS so I have ordered one. The other pin came out cold, once bitten twice shy.

I've never dismantled carbs using a blowlamp before, it was quite nerve racking, but with careful heating and selection of the right screwdrivers I managed to get the jets and drain plugs out eventually, as well as being bunged up with crud the jets aren't standard size as per my parts book, the mains are 120 rather than 130, I don't know why, so I will order two rebuild kits with new ones to be safe. Individual jets don't seem to be available from Honda so I'm stuck with buying a complete aftermarket set from D Silver.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGynpXVZ/IMG-3497.jpg)

A question for James, on your two CL450s, is there anything attached to the negative side of the battery other than the earth strap? As well as the fused +ve supply to the loom and the +ve cable to the starter relay I have a black lead from the loom that has been joined to a non standard wire with an eye on the end that could go to either terminal. I think its possibly the feed from the regulator to the positive terminal, but I want to be sure before I connect it up, not that I have a battery yet. Photos in the manual and of bikes for sale on ebay are not clear about what goes where, so perhaps you could check for me? Thanks.


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 31, 2018, 04:01:15 PM
Not sure if these are suitable for K1 but can do you a 'forum' deal if they are Dave. Jensen is bound to know if you PM him. (he bought a set and tested them). They are definitely rocking horse poo parts.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143038522102?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

 
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on December 31, 2018, 04:38:10 PM
I think my carbs are different, Ash, the kits you link to are for 1965/66 black bombers. My carbs are stamped 14H, I just went to look.

My bike, strictly speaking a K2 which has ended up in K1 clothing somewhere along the line, doesn't have springs in the vacuum pistons either. They may be missing, but there's none shown in the parts book.

There may be an upgrade kit for the K2 too, but maybe the flat spot had been fixed by '69, I don't know. Could explain my non standard jets though.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on December 31, 2018, 07:40:47 PM
Dave - I should be doing some work on the red bike next week - so I’ll pull it out and get some reference shots for you/check the earth cable situation. James
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 07, 2019, 01:06:29 PM
i decided to order a battery, then I can start connecting things up one at a time. I went for one of those yellow gel ones, I have one on the Harley, no problems there. I also ordered a pair of new spark plugs, the old ones look fine but its one less thing to worry about. They were all of three and a half quid for the pair, posted. How can they make them for that little? I'll still need to know about that other wire from the loom, James.

The first thing I need to do is sort out an earthing strap for the bars, which are rubber mounted, I need an earth for the starter and horn buttons. I think it goes from a tag on the bottom of the bar mount to a bullet connector at the speedo bracket.

While I was in the garage I static timed it, I couldn't get the points to close at all at first, until I tried rotating the engine one full turn, not a wasted spark like on the 750. Thinking about it, the 750 points are on the crank, the 450 exhaust cam runs at half speed.

Before the carb bits arrive I can get the starter and sparks working, hopefully (I already tried the starter to get oil pressure when the engine was on the bench). As I may be in a position to try and start her up once I have rebuilt and fitted the carbs, I decided to check if the petcock was working OK, I had previously bought a genuine set of all the rubber parts and a new screen from Silvers.

Good job I checked, it was just a little bit blocked up!

(https://i.postimg.cc/K85ndwhZ/IMG-3498.jpg)

I dont know what all the grey stuff was, either someone had tried to run the bike on mud, or its just what happens if you leave alloy in contact with old petrol for a decade or two. Much poking about with a long thin electrical screwdriver was needed, but I eventually dug it all out and cleared all the holes and pipe. I also had to clear out the U shaped slot on the tap, which was invisible to start with.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr2QRjT7/IMG-3499.jpg)

I finally got it so I could blow through the tap in main and reserve, and cleaned the body and face plate up as best as I could. Not as pretty as a new one, but another original 1969 part saved from the scrap bin.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QjCQZQg/IMG-3500.jpg)




Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Andrew-S on January 07, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
The grey stuff is likely to be ethanol/old petrol residue. I recently rebuilt the SU carbs on my Triumph TR3A and found a grey silt in the bottom of the float bowls - when this dried out it turned to a very fine dust/sand, or maybe it was alloy from the inside of the carbs...... :o

Cheers
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 07, 2019, 03:17:56 PM
Dave,

I did manage to get to the bikes earlier this week - but the light in my storage unit is crap and to be honest it’s going to require me to tear into one of the bikes to trace back wiring and see where they go. At the moment I can’t really spend a load of time tearing into either bike.

But, I did snap pics of both in the battery area - do you have an owners manual??

I’ve photographed the wiring diagram from mine here..happy to email you a high res. picture...

James

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/9896e45d4d1be7b8cb7f92039e246207.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/b9533d0c9b73a4234b944a620c47833a.jpg)

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/6c8e5a3ce8fc40fca3d4648347044c0d.jpg)

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Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 07, 2019, 03:19:15 PM
On my red bike, there’s a green wire going to the loom (in addition to the main earth cable).

I think it’s the same on the blue bike.

Wiring diagram suggests the same.

Hope that helps..

James

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/79aa82a2bebad7f12ae29d604cbd1284.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 07, 2019, 03:27:27 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190107/cc29cc84589ef36fbbfaac10abeabd53.jpg)

Picture in owners manual confirms the presence of a second wire from -ve terminal
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 07, 2019, 06:47:28 PM
Many thanks for the photos James, I'll check against my bike later to see if the mystery wire was green when it came out of the loom before a black piece got spliced on. There is also  an unfused red/white to the rectifier, I need to check its not that. Confusingly I can't see the -ve wire on the blue bike, that's the same battery that I've bought, mine is starting to look very much like yours now. Have you ever ridden either of them, if so what was it like?

'REGURATOR' on the wiring diagram made me laugh.

Pics of the red bike with the tank off are interesting for the cable routing, for example my clutch cable is all on the left at the moment, yours crosses over above the frame tube to come out on the right side of the tank at the steering head.

Edit: I just looked at the parts manual, superbly drawn as ever it shows the wiring arrangement really well, with the extra negative wire visible as well as the arrangement on the positive side. I did technical drawing at school, and really appreciate a good parts book.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 07, 2019, 09:21:58 PM
Dave, if you want I can properly scan the wiring diagram at work tomorrow and send it to you as an A3 PDF to print out if that helps?

In terms of riding - i’ve ridden the red bike before pulling the tank off (have a red paint set from Menno here and done - but want to deep clean the bike first). It was a hoot to ride - you’ll love it.

But, I’m 6’3” and 16 stone (big boned) so I probably looked like a fat bird riding a kids bike
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 08, 2019, 12:18:27 PM
Quote
I probably looked like a fat bird riding a kids bike

Haha! (tempted to say LOL but that triggers some folk on here ;) ) I know what you mean, I'm 6 foot and haven't had a bike this small in years. It sounds fun though.

Yes if you can send me a pm with the pdf as a link if you can host it somewhere, or attachment if the technology allows, that would be great, I can print it out and keep it in the garage. failing that I can pm you my email address so you can attach it to an email. My Clymer manual has a couple of wiring diagrams for CB450 models but they aren't 100% correct for my bike.

I had another look at my wiring, and on the +ve side I can see the red fused supply to the loom, the red feed from the regulator and the cable to the starter relay, as it should be. The mystery earth wire has no sign of green on it, it comes out of the cable black, then confusingly got spliced with a repair piece in red, see the photo. Red and black make sense for + and -, what gets really confusing is that further up the loom, feed wires are black and earth wires are green, it beats me why Honda weren't consistent.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzDZFyfb/IMG-3501.jpg)








Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 13, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
Nothing to take a picture of really, but I reached a milestone today- after making an earth wire to the handlebars and connecting up the new battery, I pressed the starter  button.

The engine span, and there were sparks at the new plugs!

Next up is to rebuild the carbs, then we are really close to attempting to start her up.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 19, 2019, 09:33:25 PM
News flash - she runs!

Early attempts failed miserably, despite fat blue sparks, then I checked the float bowls and found them empty! The repair kit float needles are slightly different, I put the originals back in and got the bowls to fill, with a bit of fiddling with the float tabs. One is new, the original one is bent to buggery and will be replaced.

With fuel in the carbs I tried again and, probably for the first time since she had metallic purple paint and pullback bars, back in the seventies I think, she fired up!

Little smoke, no tick over yet but the settings were just a guess for now.

There is a video, when I work out how to work YouTube i’ll post a link to it. We’re having a bottle of bubbly left over from the wife’s birthday party to celebrate :)

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 19, 2019, 09:51:58 PM
Well done Dave......great work 👍👍👍👍
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on January 19, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Great news,  well done.

It's always nice to hear something going again after assembly.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 20, 2019, 10:02:55 AM
Awesome well done Dave. Scanner still down at work - should have wiring diagram in PDF early next week. James
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 20, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
Well done Dave, look forward to watching the video.
How's your head this morning...... 🍾🤕?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 20, 2019, 06:57:54 PM
Well done mate, have watched the thread closely and you have been very thorough and patient.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 21, 2019, 12:20:05 PM
Thanks for your kind comments. Of course the advice, contacts and parts that have come via this thread have been invaluable. Once I have the clocks fitted, clutch adjusted and connect up the lights and flashers etc she will be ready for an MOT, although exempt I presume I still need one on the VIN number to get an age related registration.

Question - given that, as a US bike, there is a plate showing a manufacturing date of 11/69, do I still need to faff around with a dating letter to get her registered? I can do it via the VJMC if I have to, but I wondered if a photo of the VIN plate would do? As an aside, are Honda US any more friendly than Honda UK, who were spectacularly unhelpful with my CB750, as they didn't sell it. I was wondering if Honda USA (if they still exist) records would show which dealer sold the bike, I only know it came from a state with red soil, as there was half a pound of it under the transmission cover. There was an auction number starting with KS painted on the forks and headlamp - Kansas? Maybe Summerbud would know, if they would tell me - I guess they may want to protect their sources.

Here's a couple of phone pics of the bike ready to start with carbs and new fuel lines - the originals had turned to stone but were handy for the lengths required. I tried to take a couple of shots with my SLR, but the lens fitted meant I couldn't get far enough away in the garage, I'll take some better photos once she is complete and out and about.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zXJH9yK3/IMG-3516.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rjDSXyP/IMG-3517.jpg)

I seem to have worked out YouTube, there is a video of my first attempt, with no fuel in the float bowls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrgyiuu3f3M

She wouldn't start to David Bowie (Planet Rock on the garage radio), but did for Hawkwind, and fuel of course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeriJFzG08U

Second (warm) start, choke now off, with dodgy upside down solo camera work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw5u1BkIe5k

I must work out how to do the embedded thumbnail type links, but I have work to do.





Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 21, 2019, 05:56:09 PM
Fantastic progress Dave.

You can use form V112 to register as MOT exempt (so you don’t need an MOT to register her).

The DVLA will want the original US title for dating purposes. They won’t accept a photo of the VIN tag.

If no title, VJMC dating letter will work, with a covering letter explaining why you don’t have the original title.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 22, 2019, 12:01:11 PM
If I don't need an MOT then I can get on with getting her registered really, also I wont have to do the dodgy ride to the MOT station definitely not temporarily borrowing the CB750 plate (because its a Honda already insured in my name, and no plate is asking for a pull) , as that would be illegal.  8)

I got absolutely no paperwork with the bike other than a NOVA certificate and a receipt, so I'll need a dating letter, however I am already a VJMC member, from when I had to do the same with the CB750. It will be interesting explaining to the wife why I am posting a letter to a dating service, let's hope it goes better than when I was doing bathroom repairs, and she poked her head around the door to see what I was doing just as I was looking, shocked, at my Google search results for 'ball cock'  :o :o :o

I downloaded the form from the VJMC, as well as close ups of the frame, engine and VIN plate numbers, they want side on shots of the completed bike, so they can judge that it is what it's supposed to be, and not, say a later bike built into an old frame.

So I put the clocks on, stuffed all the loose electrical spaghetti into the headlamp, and dragged her out, blinking, into the daylight for the first time in a long time, to take photos with a proper camera. I thought I'd share the results:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SbjFsXw/P1220005.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd286f2r/P1220006.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2019, 12:15:59 PM
I have ridden several bikes and driven a couple of kit cars to  MOT without plates and never been pulled yet!!!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 22, 2019, 02:11:29 PM
You may well have been insured though, I won't be adding the CL to my policy until it is properly ready for the road. I'm guessing I'll need it insured on the frame number when I apply to register, I remember having a falling out with my insurer with the CB750 when they charged me £35 just to amend the policy from the frame number to the registration number, robbing bunch of %*£!s.

I have applied to the DVLA for the V55/5 form to get a registration number, also a V355/5 which is a guide to filling it in.

I'm guessing that James does this rigmarole quite often, James how do you fill in the V112 (exemption from road tax) form when you don't have a number yet? Do you put the frame number in, or leave it blank for the DVLA to complete?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 22, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Dave - feel free to call me and I can walk you through the paperwork one evening. V112 yes just put in your VIN where it says registration number. The bike doesn’t need to be insured either to register. Email Ray Davis @VJMC with dating application with photos from 4 angles and of ViN/ Engine number . Simples.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Davelu88 on January 22, 2019, 10:42:27 PM
James , have they changed that as well as you used to need insurance to register and what about the £55 tax and registration fee.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 22, 2019, 10:46:28 PM
Still £55 first reg fee. But yes, no insurance required. Has been that way for 18 months or so now. James
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 23, 2019, 02:28:11 PM
Wiring diagram attached Dave (finally) - what a mission that was..
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 23, 2019, 03:23:10 PM
Being able to register it before I insure it makes life easier, I had to MOT and insure the 750 before I could even apply. The dating letter has been ordered.

Many thanks for the wiring diagram, it will help a lot - I have a couple in my Clymer manual but this is much closer to the wiring I have, although still as clear as mud in some places about what colour wire is what. I was having a bit of trouble last night getting my head round the tacho bulbs, for example the turn signal bulb has a feed from each indicator, orange and blue, but no obvious earth - it's in a rubber sheath and so isolated from the tacho body, which has its own earth for the instrument light.

I've printed the diagram out so I can use it in the garage.

I did get the 'elephant's ear' horn working, it is super loud, sounds like a truck horn!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on January 23, 2019, 03:52:11 PM
The indicator repeater earths through the side that isnt lit which is why if you fit led indicator bulbs and leave the idiot light connected all 4 flash!!!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 23, 2019, 04:17:09 PM
The indicator repeater earths through the side that isnt lit which is why if you fit led indicator bulbs and leave the idiot light connected all 4 flash!!!

I can see why that would happen, but why don't mine do that? Is it because it is earthing through the unlit side's bulbs, but the current drawn by the repeater light isn't enough to actually light them? A weird arrangement, but I'm sure you and Honda understand the logic better than I do.  :D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on January 23, 2019, 09:31:06 PM
Your logic is correct for 21w filament bulbs, no idea why things go wrong with led bulbs i just know it happens, maybe because lef draw a lot less current.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 26, 2019, 07:16:24 PM
I got the registration form and guide from the DVLA today, also heard from Ray Davis at the VJMC asking for a better picture of the engine number. It is a sod to take a good photo of because of the pipes, I only got the number to show up clear by rubbing a bit of copper grease into the digits.

I had her running again today, having a lot of trouble trying to get a good tickover, it only seems to respond to the offside carb screw, and sometimes ‘hangs’ at scary high revs. I’m tempted to get new throttle cables rather than persist with the old ones.

I also found out what a faff taking me tank off is, you have to drain the fuel first due to the pipe between the two halves of the tank. This is where I’d have been better off if I’d shelled out for an external bottle feed.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 26, 2019, 07:55:02 PM
Dave - I feel your pain. Worth getting one of these...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6mm-Automotive-Fuel-Line-Quick-Connect-Disconnect-Release-Coupler-Petrol-Race/172273142696?epid=2151475137&hash=item281c478ba8:g:iAoAAOSwHglcMx4o:rk:27:pf:0
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 26, 2019, 08:47:32 PM
Hell I’d forgotten all about them, when I was on the Honda Superbike team the RC45 race bike had them as standard in the fuel Ines. We called them ‘dry breaks’

I liberated a couple when I left for the Norton S Type I was building at the time, but that’s just what I want for that pesky balance pipe, i’ll get one ordered.

I’m not sure if I have a throttle cable problem or an air leak with no reliable tickover and revs that suddenly go mental for no reason. I tried tightening the band around the inlet stubs, not much else I can try. The twins forum is full of people trying to make these carbs behave.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 27, 2019, 07:47:42 PM
More progress today, I connected all the wires up, I had a surprise when I tried the indicators, the generic indicator relay I bought from eBay has a loud beep built in, not very 1969 at all!

Three flashed, and the repeater, the other wasn’t earthing through the headlamp ears because of the new paint. I soon fixed that, then I connected everything else up. Because of the clear colour coding and unmolested original connectors, much to my surprise I soon had fully functional lights, plus instrument lights as well as indicators and horn.

All I’ve left to do electrically is investigate the neutral light which doesn’t, and try to fit the headlamp without disconnecting anything in the bundle behind.

Tickover is still high and unreliable, but I now have both cylinders going at once, one of the new plugs was only firing intermittently so I swapped it for one of the originals!
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 27, 2019, 08:43:46 PM
Good work Dave. Sounds like you’re getting pretty close now...
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 10, 2019, 08:05:51 PM
The registration paperwork has gone to the DVLA, so I jump on the post each day, but nothing has come so far.

A long weekend working through my ‘snagging’ list  in the garage as she wasn’t running at all well, I can happily report that I finally have a reliable tickover and she has moved under her own power for the first time in many years.

I set and adjusted the clutch, then took the carbs off to change the cables for a new set from Silvers, pattern but from a Japan, in grey to match the other cables and good quality. I had to drain the fuel, but hopefully for the last time as I have now fitted the dry breaks to the tank balance pipe as suggested by James.

I refitted the original pilot air screws but with new rubbers, and checked the carb airways, all in search of the elusive tickover.

Everything got put back together, so I was then gutted to find her still running dreadfully, starting reluctantly on one pot, then with both firing refusing to idle, with popping and banging that made me suspicious about the timing. I had hoped to do it with a strobe, but neither of mine would fit so I checked where the points opened with a multimeter. Either I’d got it wrong or it had slipped, but the points were definitely opening late.

I readjusted, put things back together and tried again- what a difference! Easy starting and an idle at last. The tacho has steamed up, not sure if there’s an o ring in the cable that’s perished, I had a similar issue with the 750 breathing up the cable.

Before I came in I wanted to see if the clutch worked, I pulled the lever in and pushed the lever down, my newly fixed neutral light went out and I didn’t fire forwards as I’d worried I might. I let the lever out and rode all of a couple of feet, but under her own steam at last.  :)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 10, 2019, 09:11:27 PM
Wayhay......and he's off. Well done Dave 👍
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on February 11, 2019, 07:11:12 AM
Fantastic build Dave looks really spot on.

Did you manage to find the correct wiring diagram. I have a UK 1967 Black Bomber and the manual shows a diagram for that year. Unfortunately it shows only one coil and one set of points. As it's a 180 degree crank is that even possible? The wiring appears to have changed year on year. Do you by chance have a wiring diagram for that year and model.

Also, I was considering doing a build thread as I have only just got started on the Bomber but didn't really want to duplicate what Dave was doing. Does anyone have any interest in me doing a build thread?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Johnwebley on February 11, 2019, 12:37:01 PM


   great news Dave.

  anyone back on the road
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 11, 2019, 12:42:01 PM
Fantastic build Dave looks really spot on.

Did you manage to find the correct wiring diagram. I have a UK 1967 Black Bomber and the manual shows a diagram for that year. Unfortunately it shows only one coil and one set of points. As it's a 180 degree crank is that even possible? The wiring appears to have changed year on year. Do you by chance have a wiring diagram for that year and model.

Also, I was considering doing a build thread as I have only just got started on the Bomber but didn't really want to duplicate what Dave was doing. Does anyone have any interest in me doing a build thread?

I would be interested in a build thread Roy as I still have my 1967 K0 Bomber engine to build up. A lot of differences, as you know between the 4-speed and the 5-speed ...for instance crank is a totally different design. Plus I really enjoyed your build thread on the CB350F

Dave : looking spot on you should be proud...what's your next one going to be?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 11, 2019, 01:16:21 PM
Many thanks for your kind comments.

Dave : looking spot on you should be proud...what's your next one going to be?  ;D ;D

If all goes to plan and the 911, currently at a specialist dealer, gets sold  - big if, as due to #@%$ uncertainty I think, nearly all the classic cars for sale in November I've been watching are still up for sale - and if I can make a deal at the right price with the current owner, it will be this, a 1950's Alfa Giulietta Sprint. Worth a lot when done, it depends on what's missing or needs doing, the current owner is no mug and will have a good idea what it's worth, but it's going nowhere until I'm ready, I've been told. However that'll be a thread for another board if it happens. The CB750 K1 may have to go too if I need the garage space and cash.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkPsF7wq/phils-Alfa.jpg)

Here's an immaculate finished restoration for sale, note the eye watering price!

https://www.southwood.co.uk/showroom/67/Alfa-Romeo-Giulietta-Sprint-Series-1.html

I'd follow a thread on a 1967 Bomber rebuild Roy, as Ash says, many differences, sorry I can't help with a wiring diagram.

I had the CL450 running again this morning and once warmed up I got a nice strong tickover, but them as I stood back and watched the revs shot up for no good reason and I had to switch off! Not sure what that's all about, but fuel was dripping from the left hand carb. There seems to be a fine line with the float level between no fuel in the bowl and too much, I need to investigate.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on February 11, 2019, 04:42:20 PM
Think you may have cracked it there Dave. Carb flooding will do that if the petrol gets high enough to start being drawn into the engine. Would go very rich but with no load on the engine it will rev.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Allington (Steve) on February 12, 2019, 11:55:49 AM
Many thanks for your kind comments.

Dave : looking spot on you should be proud...what's your next one going to be?  ;D ;D

If all goes to plan and the 911, currently at a specialist dealer, gets sold  - big if, as due to #@%$ uncertainty I think, nearly all the classic cars for sale in November I've been watching are still up for sale - and if I can make a deal at the right price with the current owner, it will be this, a 1950's Alfa Giulietta Sprint. Worth a lot when done, it depends on what's missing or needs doing, the current owner is no mug and will have a good idea what it's worth, but it's going nowhere until I'm ready, I've been told. However that'll be a thread for another board if it happens. The CB750 K1 may have to go too if I need the garage space and cash.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkPsF7wq/phils-Alfa.jpg)

Here's an immaculate finished restoration for sale, note the eye watering price!

https://www.southwood.co.uk/showroom/67/Alfa-Romeo-Giulietta-Sprint-Series-1.html

I'd follow a thread on a 1967 Bomber rebuild Roy, as Ash says, many differences, sorry I can't help with a wiring diagram.

I had the CL450 running again this morning and once warmed up I got a nice strong tickover, but them as I stood back and watched the revs shot up for no good reason and I had to switch off! Not sure what that's all about, but fuel was dripping from the left hand carb. There seems to be a fine line with the float level between no fuel in the bowl and too much, I need to investigate.

Not sure if it's #@%$ or just a natural correction but some parts of the classic car market are very soft at the moment.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 13, 2019, 12:24:49 PM
Certainly nothing much is moving at the moment, a friend of mine is looking at E-types as they've noticeably dropped, that could well be because sellers were over optimistic in their expectations, as you say market correction.

Anyway, woo hoo! The post had a buff envelope from Swansea, I now have an age related 'H' registration, and can get on with ordering a black and silver numberplate.  :D :D :D Once that comes its a call to the insurance company and 'head out on the highway' time, now I have got my motor running.

Along with fitting a nice new pair of pattern mirrors which arrived from Thailand, It's just about finished, though I still have to play with the flooding carb, if playing with the float level continues to be elusive I may try different combinations of needle and seat, I currently have the original needle and an aftermarket  carb kit seat, with a new float. A real ball ache but I'm sure I'll sort it eventually. At the moment I can get no fuel in the bowl, or dripping out of the overflow. Looking at the Honda Twins forum it seems I'm not alone. Somewhere in between must be a happy medium.


Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 18, 2019, 06:40:03 PM
Up and running, but still waiting for a number plate to be made.

She wouldn't fire at all yesterday, I realised I'd flooded her and took the plugs out to dry, today I found still no joy, the offside plug wasn't sparking at all. A switch to the original plug she came with sorted that out, so BOTH new NGK's have failed, I got them cheap as chips off eBay and wonder if they might be fakes? She is now back on the original plugs that she came with! It reminds me of a lad I used to know with an RD250, his pockets were always full of spark plugs as he kept fouling them. Can anyone point me at a reliable source of NGK spark plugs?, I don't mind paying a little more for the guaranteed real thing.

Anyway I got it running, and took her out for a first ride, down a local ancient dirt road that has had no maintenance since the middle ages, but noone has told satnavs yet. You occasionally meet the odd stuck wagon with a very flustered driver.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLW13Nnp/IMG-3545.jpg)

The bike went OK, a bit of a handful on the really rough stuff, and the carburation isn't quite there yet. I may get the carbs off again (a real ball ache as you have to take the tank, side panels and air filters off first) and use the carboard float lever tool (I have a drawing in my Clymer manual) to get the float levels better than my trial and error setting, . At one point she cut out completely and I coasted to a halt, it turned out that the low tech bent piece of metal that rubs on the choke lever needs tweeking, as the choke had vibrated to fully on, killing the engine.

When I got back, with the bike up to temperature I got the screwdriver out and adjusted the tickover again, I was quite pleased with the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syREwh8kUys
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Woodside on February 18, 2019, 07:20:14 PM
My 450 would wet the plugs for fun..
I found when starting do not even touch the throttle not even a bit...let it catch on the choke then roll the throttle on...never failed...
When I sold the bike the guy called in a bad mood saying it wouldn't start....yup he had wetted the plugs..New plugs and he was away...

On a foot  note I've found that when the new  ngk plugs have been flooded they are toast and never the same again..
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on February 18, 2019, 07:58:46 PM
Thanks, after reading your post I’ve ordered 4 new ones, I can keep a spare inside the plug spanner in the toolkit, also I’ll remember to keep away from the twistgrip when I start up, I didn’t know that and have been giving her a touch of throttle when I try and start up.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 02, 2019, 07:23:10 PM
Hmm, having a couple of teething problems but I have put 8 miles on the trip meter.

First the indicators work fine in the garage but barely at all on the road. Either there’s a loose connection somewhere or the generic relay isn’t happy about something.

Secondly and more importantly I’m dammned if I can get a reliable tickover. I end up revving her like a race bike (mine never had tickovers, deliberately) at the lights. I have had her ticking over, see the YouTube video above, but on the road she died when the revs dropped. Today I set the float levels properly as per the book, so I can rule fuel levels out, but I buggered up the carb syncing- I had them working fine together but after I put the tank back on I realised  I’d pulled the cable ends out of the junction box. I may have to do the whole palaver of taking the side panels and air boxes off again just to correct things. I’ve tried adjusting the cables so they are both taking up the slack at the same time but it’s not right. The right carb is very sensitive to the throttle screw while the other isn’t, something wrong there.

In the end I gave up as everything had got very hot, so I was worried I’d do some damage or not get it right anyway. I’m sure I’ll get there in the end, but it was easier to get her running than getting a reliable tickover.

The dry break I put in the balance pipe between the two halves of the tank has made life so much easier, if I was still having to drain the tank every time I took it off I’d be tearing my hair out by now.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 05, 2019, 01:28:41 AM
It’s still not right, I resynched the carbs, checked the float levels, put some sealant on the inlet stubs and put it all together only to find it still wants to die or surge, rather than tick over.

Knowing now that it’s not flooding, when the revs suddenly skyrocket I think I must have an air leak, I suspect the inlet stubs. Rock hard with age when I got the bike, Ashley kindly softened them with magic chemistry, but I’ve bitten the bullet and ordered a new pair from Silvers, very uncheap. The Cb750 had a leak on one cylinder when I got it, that was turning the header yellow, despite nothing appearing wrong other than hardened rubbers, new inlet stubs cured the problem completely.

The only way I’m going to get to the bottom of this bad slow running is to be methodical and eliminate all the possible causes. It will all be worth it in the end though.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on March 05, 2019, 07:48:35 AM
First thing I look for these days is new inlet rubbers, had  the same issue too many  times.

Don't know if he has any left, but Ash was selling genuine jet kits and needles for the 450.

Have you checked the floats themselves as the soldered joints can go bad on these. A tiny amount of petrol inside the float will mess it up. Cruzinimage sell good quality reproductions.

I'm sure you will have checked all the above as you have done a top job with the rest of the bike. Good luck with finding the problem, there's nothing quite as frustrating as carbs. I'm fairly sure the new inlet rubbers will do the trick.

I send mine to Matt Harper to be done these days, and never had a problem since. Matt Harper - New inlet rubbers - Job done.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 05, 2019, 10:23:46 AM
All the jets are new, plus the float needles, seats and pilot screws. I had to use after market ones as the real thing was nowhere to be found.

The floats are new and genuine - one original was bent, the other fell apart, to my horror, when I used heat to unstick the float spindle - the solder melted instantly!

I couldn’t get the screws out that hold the needles in the slides, so they are still original, I hope they are in the original ( or at least the same) groove, but that’s farther up the rev range to be affecting my low rev problems.

I await my inlet rubbers, hopefully this will be the last time I have to take the carbs and air cleaners off for now.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 06, 2019, 03:45:32 PM
The new inlet stubs have come, and I'll replace them as soon as I make the time, however if that doesn't solve my problems, reading on the twins forum makes me wonder about air leaks at the felt seals on the throttle valve shafts, which I haven't been anywhere near.

They aren't listed in my parts book, they included in the whole carb body part number, but I've found them on eBay, complete with a video on how to change them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB450-and-CB500-Twin-Improved-Carburetor-Throttle-Shaft-Felt-Seals/261900707837

It's stuff like this that probably got many of these bikes banished to the back of the barn in the first place, but I'm a stubborn so and so, and won't give up anytime soon. We'll see what the new stubs do, they don't feel a lot softer than Ashley got my originals to be, but at least I can eliminate them and still have a plan if that doesn't work, other than to go and pour myself a large drink.

Does anyone here have any experience of these seals causing an air leak?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on March 06, 2019, 04:12:44 PM
Assuming all else is up to scratch,  it's almost without exception that it's air leaking in (effectively unmeterred)  that gives uncontrolled tickover.

Think you're on the right track by eliminating the most likely culprit first.

The felt seals, can you soak them in engine oil while you are fitting the setup? It's usually enough to get a temporary stay of execution to assess it. Although done at the same time as the inlet tracts wouldn't give you defined cause to be satisfied with.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 10, 2019, 07:41:15 PM
I fitted the new stubs this weekend, then found she wouldn’t start at all! Checking the plugs showed no spark at all on the left, using my multimeter I eventually traced that to the feed wire from the coil being slightly broken near a connector causing an iffy ‘on / off’ state as I bent the wire back and forth.

That meant a trip out to Halfords to buy a new soldering iron as my old one had become worse than useless. That fixed, and insulated with a bit of heat shrink I was back to sparks on both sides, I reckon I was lucky to catch the problem at home in the garage rather than breaking down miles from anywhere in the dark.

Trying again she started fine, the tickover isn’t perfect yet but much more reliable, I need to go for a ride when the weather improves and take s screwdriver to fettle the carb settings at normal working temperature.

The rev counter fogs up, I had trouble with the CB750 breathing up the cable until I replaced the oil seal in the cam cover. There is an oil seal in the tachometer drive that I will replace, I’m a bit reluctant to order one on its own and suffer the carriage fee for just that, I may wait until I need something else. If that doesn’t work I may need a new cable, mine is the original that came with the bike.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: hairygit on March 10, 2019, 08:02:27 PM
I have found that quite a few Honda oil seals are still available new from Honda, worth getting the part number from CMS and phoning your local Honda dealer, the number nay have been superseded or its listed for another bike, but if it's still available it will save the postage cost.

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 27, 2019, 01:21:32 PM
Thanks I ended up biting the bullet and ordering the tacho cable seal from DS, a couple of weeks delivery as they got it in from the US. The old one was a bugger to get out as there's a metal ring inside the seal,  I tapped the new one in with a 10mm socket, the same as I did with the CB750, and  job done, no more weather system in the tacho when you start up.

I wanted to take her out for a ride on Sunday, but she was barely running on one pot, much to my disappointment, however many times I fiddled around and swapped plugs etc. She had run better on first start up, however I got a clue from he right hand plug being very sooty.

Last night I had an hour and decided to pull the right carb to check it over, looking for a plastic tray to put the parts in, I noticed that one contained a little brass plug, the one that goes underneath the pilot jet, with a hole to let the fuel in from the main jet gallery. Hang on! I thought, I never had a spare one of those....  :o I whipped the float bowl off and sure enough the plug was missing - problem solved easier than I thought!

Out for another go at a ride today it still ran rough but at least on 2, so I doubled back - going up our hill it must have cleared the fouled plug, and suddenly joy!  :D It fair whizzes along, making a glorious row that would be quite legal in 1969, competing with BSAs and Triumphs etc (same applies to CB750 exhausts). I haven't revved her past 7k yet, but the redline is 9.5k or so. As James said, loads of fun. :) When I came back I was astonished to still have a reliable tickover too, unlike my first ride where it died at every traffic light. I don't know for sure if its charging yet, but the lights were still bright after a ride, however I don't see them get brighter when I rev the bike (my usual way of checking). How do I check it with a meter?

Snagging work needed, now I have put 30 miles on the clock:

I have to treat the brakes with respect, being used to discs, but the rear pedal fouls the case, I think I need to find and fit a big washer or spacer to move it outboard. Also. the speedo drive turns itself clockwise as far as the cable lets it - what should locate it? - do I need to nip up the nut on the axle a bit, or is it something to do with the crosshead screw on the drive? Although low mileage, the speedo needle floats around a bit, possibly the damping oil has escaped over the years. Next winter I may be sending it Peter's way if that's the case. Of course the tacho, which he has already had a go at, is perfect.

The indicators are strictly optional in use, they may or may not work, although they seem fine in the garage - I will investigate the switch. It is possible I'll get a NOS switch to properly match the lower half I got from Ashley, they do exist but ain't cheap, but I'll try and fix what I've got first. Also I'd need to take the bars off to do the faff with threading the wires through the holes again.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on March 27, 2019, 01:46:32 PM
Put voltmeter on battery terminals to see voltage static, running with lights off and running with lights on if charging second two dhould be higher than first and preferably about14 volt as to speedo drive it shoulhave a lug on the fork to stop it turning too far but tightening axle nut should also stop it turning.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 29, 2019, 04:07:46 PM
the good news is I sucessfully tightened up the nut on the axle, I had to drop the wheel as there wasn't room to get a 25mm spanner in. There is no lug on the drive or fork leg.

The bad news is, using that test, Bryan, the bike isn't charging - the volts stayed at 12v whatever I did. I will check all the connections are clean and intact first. A new rectifier is available from DS, but at just over £100 its an expensive punt if that isn't the fault. All looked to be well with the alternator when I stripped the engine. Ther's not much else it could be as far as I can see.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on March 29, 2019, 04:41:45 PM
I seem to remember that the switch that turns the lights on also connects alternator coils a bit like the old lucas system on brit bikes
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 29, 2019, 04:49:33 PM
My light switch is on the right handlebar, its the same switch as the dip, three positions, off, low and high beam.

I'll need to have a look at the wiring diagram that James sent me.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on March 29, 2019, 05:32:03 PM
Yellow wire and yellow white comes to mind mate.

If the system is holding 12v it may not be fully charging but it seems to be holding its own. You could put an ammeter in line on a battery lead as long as you do not use the electric starter, that would tell you if it is actually discharging.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 09, 2019, 02:07:49 PM
150 miles on the clock now, and 'bloody lovely, that' seems to be the consensus, even from non bikers and a local Honda hating 'outlaw' type.

All the snagging problems are fixed, I now have reliable indicators, a stable tickover and easy starting.

The only issues I'm keeping an eye on are

1) a drip of oil from the breather when left standing in the garage, possibly from slight overfilling, if its blowby I'm stuck with it, unless the rings need to bed in more in their new positions - I reused the originals as nothing seemed worn, but they aren't going to be exactly where they started. There's no visible smoke.

2) Charging, I've still never seen more than 12v running, but it came back from a long ride, with the lights on for the last few miles, still showing 12v so I don't think I've an issue, however I wouldn't be confident yet to go for a long ride in the dark.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on May 02, 2019, 04:00:07 PM
An annoying rattle has started in the silencer, I presume something has come adrift. As the silencer is made from weapons grade unobtanium, and welded to the right hand header pipe, there is nothing I can do but put up with it for now. There are a couple of pins that have pulled out and a small crack along the top, but that was there already, and I can't tell or certain if that's where the rattle is coming from.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8gTdb4g/IMG-3766.jpg)

I will keep my eye on eBay in case DK or someone break a CL and put a decent one up for sale, but I'm not holding much hope of that. There is the odd one in the states, but condition is a total gamble and postage and tax a potential nightmare.

I've had a chat with my mate the professional bike repairer /restorer about investigative surgery come next winter. I suggested we cut the back off the box, fix whatetever's wrong and reweld, he thinks that wouldn't work, due to baffles etc that are welded all round, and thinks that a couple of small exploratory holes will be the way to go at first, maybe even borrow an endoscope (Julie?). He also reckons we can save the chrome when we reweld by wrapping the silencer in wet towels.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on May 02, 2019, 04:32:03 PM
What a shame to have a problem like that already. There's always something on these owd uns.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on May 02, 2019, 04:59:07 PM
Well it gives us something to do, Roy.

I just found DK do currently have a set of CL pipes, £399.99, look nice from a distance, and B*ll*xed at exactly the same place as mine...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CL450-CL-450-K3-On-1970-On-Up-Sweped-Exhaust-System-Headers-Silencers/352635696361

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tAoAAOSwBUtcp4O4/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on May 02, 2019, 05:27:21 PM
You can get products like this to help you,  cheaper at other places if you search.

https://www.frost.co.uk/cold-front-heat-stop-putty-paste-welding-brazing-soldering-14oz-414ml.html

If a scrap pipe was available it could be used for surgical research prior to the critical operation.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on May 02, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
That's handy to know about, thanks.

Quote
If a scrap pipe was available it could be used for surgical research prior to the critical operation.

I thought we were talking about the potentially borrowed endoscope for a minute, I see what you mean though - knowing where to cut and look! I need to look at US forums etc to see if there are any pictures of what lies within.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Johnwebley on May 02, 2019, 05:39:22 PM


   I have an Aldi inspection camera,

  aprox 8mm dia,with LED illumination,about 36" long .

  with a about a 45mm screen.

 if you want to borrow,

  let me know,the carrying case is about 12" x 12" x 4"
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: K2-K6 on May 02, 2019, 05:50:29 PM
Yes,  I was searching for a photo of cut open pipe as there are some others out there,  draw a blank on that one.

A friend used putty on a fuel tank to complete a braised repair underside near the seam,  very effective and no paint damage on tank face. Surprised us both with its effective performance.

Wonder if you could get the scope down to that point, guess you could navigate on screen through baffle plates, bit like a krypton factor task  :)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on July 30, 2019, 04:59:27 PM
I found a photo of a CL450 silencer the same as mine cut open (who knows why), in an eBay listing. Like most CL450 projects up for sale recently it seems to have been left out in the rain for years, it makes me realise that I was lucky to find one that had been stored on the dry to restore.

(https://i.postimg.cc/90ZspVTK/s-l1600.jpg)

The pulled spot welds and crack on my silencer (see earlier photo) seem to be in the same area as the curved vertical baffle shown, so maybe its that which has come adrift. I'll keep it on the road until winter, and cut away the back to have a look then, I'll also giver her a good service and check all the tappets and timing then. I keep silencers (one piece with the upper pipe) on my eBay watch list, but only near scrap ones come up for sale

500 miles done so far, all running well and no real problems other than the silencer rattle and an iffy indicator switch, it requires a 'knack' to signal a right turn. New switches are expensive but available.

The original clutch cable is very graunchy, so I have a new grey one coming from the states (only black ones seem to be available new here), I just paid the VAT and extortionate Royal Mail 'collection fee', so it should be here soon. Question, my service manual says nothing about lubricating cables, am I right in thinking that  Honda cables (OEM ones at least) are nylon lined, so you don't have to / shouldn't lubricate them?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on August 12, 2019, 07:26:08 PM
I fitted the new clutch cable over the weekend, what a difference!

Now one finger operation and as light as a feather, remarkable compared with the British twins of the day, their clutches were like cracking walnuts with your bare hands. Also the full set of new grey cables look very smart.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on August 12, 2019, 11:21:06 PM
Deffo DO NOT lube genuine cables it makes them worse! Inner is rubber covered and outer nylon lined so oil makes them swell up
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: sprinta on November 08, 2019, 04:56:02 PM
Along with fitting a nice new pair of pattern mirrors which arrived from Thailand, It's just about finished, though I still have to play with the flooding carb, if playing with the float level continues to be elusive I may try different combinations of needle and seat, I currently have the original needle and an aftermarket  carb kit seat, with a new float. A real ball ache but I'm sure I'll sort it eventually. At the moment I can get no fuel in the bowl, or dripping out of the overflow. Looking at the Honda Twins forum it seems I'm not alone. Somewhere in between must be a happy medium.

An old post but wondering if these were the mirrors that you were referring to in your post that you got from Thailand:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB750-CB750F-CB750K-CB-750-F-K-10mm-Chrome-Steel-Metal-Mirror-Round-Pair/302394106514?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3De6d4e7fc7723492bbb7510fe52aaad3e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D401703099893%26itm%3D302394106514%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Acbeacbe5-0246-11ea-b481-74dbd1801ea2%7Cparentrq%3A4be5971d16e0a9e0f644e485ffff1730%7Ciid%3A1



If so how have you found them and did you get stung for import duty, VAT and handling?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on November 26, 2019, 10:06:35 AM
Yes they are the same ones.

They took a while to turn up, but hey, free postage from the other side of the planet, fit perfectly and look like OEM quality. No vibration dramas in use either, so much better than the tatty and mismatched pair that came with the bike. No VAT charged, which was a surprise, even the smallest items from the USA seem to cop for it.

My friend in the bike trade came round yesterday, he is going to operate on the silencer by cutting a panel out from behind, and has a cunning plan to secure any loose tinware he finds.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: sprinta on November 26, 2019, 11:05:34 AM
Yes they are the same ones.

They took a while to turn up, but hey, free postage from the other side of the planet, fit perfectly and look like OEM quality. No vibration dramas in use either, so much better than the tatty and mismatched pair that came with the bike. No VAT charged, which was a surprise, even the smallest items from the USA seem to cop for it.

My friend in the bike trade came round yesterday, he is going to operate on the silencer by cutting a panel out from behind, and has a cunning plan to secure any loose tinware he finds.

Thanks for the reply about the mirrors. You were certainly lucky with no import charges, VAT and handling.

I will see how I get on?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 10, 2020, 03:48:58 PM
A quick update, one year and 600 miles after coming back to life, she's still going strong, lots of fun to ride, and I've met plenty of people who are genuinely interested, never having seen a CL450 before.

I took the exhaust off last weekend, using a torch to look through the hole where the lower header pipe goes into the silencer, you can see a short piece of tube loose inside, causing the awful rattle. I have given it to my mate Mark, before cutting a piece out of the back to get it out, he's going to try and fish the loose bit over to the inlet hole. then try and cut it up somehow, so it can maybe be extracted without invasive surgery.

The bike ran fine despite the rattle, so it can obviously make do without the loose part.

New CL450 exhausts continue to be made of unobtanium, unless you are James, of course. DK had a fairly rough system on Ebay for £400 last week, I passed but it sold quickly. They have a K5 project bike up for sale at the moment, complete with comedy apehangers. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1972-Honda-CL450K5-Unregistered-US-Import-Barn-Find-Classic-Restoration-Project/312936621152
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 11, 2020, 04:38:56 PM
Well, as proof that there are still some clever folk around, I got my exhaust system back today, uncut, and the piece of baffle that Mark had extracted from it.

He'd hung the pipe from the ceiling, and coaxed the loose piece to the hole where the lower header pipe goes into the silencer. As the loose piece (a flat piece of steel, no rust so snapped off by vibration) was bigger than the hole it had to come through, he got two long thin pieces of steel and cut slots in them, longways. He attached a couple of bits of steel to the uncut ends at right angles, to make two 'T Piece' type tools. He then, after some trial and error, manged the get both slots over each end of the loose piece, and literally rolled it up, like an old fashioned sardine can lid, the type that came with a key.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBsdsPBF/IMG-4267.jpg)

Here is the pipe as returned, with a partly unrolled offending loose piece of baffle. Once i get a couple of new copper exhaust port gaskets I'll be back on the road, but without the eyebrow raising rattle that made most people fear the worst was about to happen.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: taysidedragon on January 11, 2020, 06:57:28 PM
Good work! Is he a part time gynaecologist as well? ☺
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on January 11, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
Is he a part time gynaecologist as well? ☺

Funny you should say that, indeed he does have a keen interest in that field, but strictly on an amateur basis.  ;)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on January 12, 2020, 12:13:15 AM
That’s a seriously good save. Nice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: taysidedragon on January 12, 2020, 01:14:13 PM
Is he a part time gynaecologist as well? ☺

Funny you should say that, indeed he does have a keen interest in that field, but strictly on an amateur basis.  ;)

Ha ha! 😁
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 01, 2020, 06:14:02 PM
I'm giving her a first service after a year on the road. There are 666 extra miles on the clock since her return to life, so I should be able to  remember the number of the beast for future reference. I's had a bit of an oil leak recently, not sure where from but somehow the sump plug had worked itself loose, I didn't need any torque at all to move it, it was practically finger tight. That could have had a very bad outcome, something to check in the future.  :o

When I took the cover off the oil filter, I was disappointed to see that the spinner part had a crack around the top, the circlip was still in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/m259CBYL/IMG-4288.jpg)

 I have no idea how that could happen. The spring loaded part in the cover seemed stuck, though, so maybe that had cracked the spinner rather than retract against the spring as it should. A quick pry with a small screwdriver freed it off, I cant see how or why it had got stuck in the first place, maybe it was a bit cockeyed.

I'm off to search the net for another one, probably from a breaker as I can't see that being a normal service item, unless anyone here has a spare one on a shelf somewhere?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on March 01, 2020, 06:46:37 PM
Might be worth checking part numbers as 250/350K twins had a similar filter
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 02, 2020, 02:28:30 PM
CSMNL had just one in stock, at a reasonable eu20, but the postage is (as usual) at least that, I also ordered new O rings for the sump plug and oil filter while I was at it.

DS also listed the part, £65 plus P&P!!! Feck that.

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 08, 2020, 10:46:20 PM
While waiting for the oil spinner and O rings, I decided to take the tank off and get on with the rest of the service. I can’t find my multimeter though, so checking the timing didn’t get done, I use it to see when the points are opening.

I did do the valve clearances though, and found to my horror that the left inlet valve adjuster spindle was 180 degrees out, with the ‘T’ facing inwards. I hadn’t noticed any rough running, but apparently it doesn’t do them any good to have them the wrong way round, the geometry is different, so just as well I decided to service the bike early. I was relieved to see that the cams are still pristine, with no scuffing, I readjusted the clearance as when I built the engine, at the size if my smallest feeler gauge, .005 mm. I think the book says .003, but it’s better than running it tight. Looking at the forums some of our US cousins do that, others set it by ear, which sounds like a stupid idea to me.

A couple of the inlet valve cover screws barely tighten - there is a metal plate as well as a gasket, I think a previous owner hasn’t taken into account that the screws are longer because of this, mixed them up and buggered the threads. It looks an awkward place to try and get a helicoil inserted in situ, though, so hopefully it will wait until some time in the future when the motor has to come out anyway.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: Bryanj on March 09, 2020, 08:28:01 AM
When you are doing valve adjustments every day 2 thou you can just feel movement and 3 thou you just hear a click
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 16, 2020, 02:33:11 PM
Ah, right Bryan, I thought they were suggesting setting the gap by ear with the engine running! Though I have seen posts from people who do their timing like that. Using my smallest feeler gauge I got it so I could just feel movement but not really hear anything so that seems about right.

My multimeter arrived in the post, so I checked the ignition timing too, it was firing a little late so I adjusted it.

Out for a test ride, all ran well, but the most noticeable difference was running from a cold engine. Previously the bike had misfired badly going up our hill with a cold engine, running on 1and a half cylinders, and not really run right until I’d done a mile or so. That’s all gone now, so the neighbours won’t raise an eyebrow and think ‘God, that sounds rough’.

I’m wondering if having the left inlet cam adjuster eccentric the wrong way round would have been affecting the valve timing enough to cause that?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on March 18, 2020, 12:32:14 PM
Another thing I decided on my test ride was that while it is all very nice having the original Decarbon gas shocks, at 70mph on the bumpy 'Isle of Skye' road over Saddleworth Moor, it didn't feel as if there was a lot of damping going on. Frankly it all felt a bit scary at times, the CL's shorter trail and higher stance probably doesn't help either.

Shocks listed for the CB450 and 500T also say they fit CL450's, whether the originals had a different spring rate or settings for occasional off road use I don't know.

I'll probably go for a TEC set, they look right and improved my CB750 no end, as well as being at a reasonable price. I have also seen EMGO ones that look close to the OEM shocks but cost a lot more than the TEC ones, and I have seen some not great reviews.

My originals would be great for someone who wants a show bike, using genuine OEM parts, and aren't too fussed about being stable at speed.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 16, 2020, 09:35:52 PM
The splines on my gearshift shaft are shot, the pedal (new) is slipping on the shaft. No doubt the offs that cut a nice arc with the gear lever into the alternator cover won’t have helped.

New spindles are unobtainable, the obvious solution seems to be to open up the slot in the pedal for a tighter grip. Unless anyone has a decent second hand shaft, anyone got a better solution?
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: the-chauffeur on April 16, 2020, 10:51:20 PM

Is this one (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1971-Honda-CB450-CB-450-K-DOHC-gearbox-selector-mechanism-shaft-wheels-gear/353046742635?hash=item523339c66b:g:G38AAOSwq5hekwl-) in any better condition than yours?  The teeth all seem to be intact if a little worn.  AFAIK the CB and CL mechanisms from that period are pretty much interchangeable (the part #'s are identical - 24610-292-030).

Might be worth picking up anyway for what's known as the pizza cutter selector part shown prominently in the fourth image.  Those things are the main weak point of the 450 gearshift mechanism and when they go, finding gears gets very hard.  Decent ones are very hard to come by now. 
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on April 17, 2020, 12:04:51 AM
The splines on my gearshift shaft are shot, the pedal (new) is slipping on the shaft. No doubt the offs that cut a nice arc with the gear lever into the alternator cover won’t have helped.

New spindles are unobtainable, the obvious solution seems to be to open up the slot in the pedal for a tighter grip. Unless anyone has a decent second hand shaft, anyone got a better solution?
Dave - only other suggestion I thought may work would be to drill / tap a hole on the underside of the gear lever itself and use a cone tipped grub screw to provide a bit more ‘grip’ on the shaft. You’d probably also need to run a drill tip part way into the shaft to provide a seat for the cone. Might be a bit convoluted.?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200416/712df4f971208f934e31e7f5dd31542d.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 17, 2020, 12:52:30 AM
Will a CB500T one fit ? it's a 292-040 part?

Could you take a shaft off another model and weld it to your existing mechanism?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Honda-CB-500-T-Bj-1975-1977-Schaltwelle-N1498/402048474746?hash=item5d9bf4de7a:g:xTMAAOSwdnNeKb7n

Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 17, 2020, 12:56:26 AM
Or how about this?

Owner of business Werner is pretty clued up on Honda  spare parts compatibility.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB-450K-Schaltwelle-shift-shaft-/373013202164?hash=item56d951c4f4
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 17, 2020, 02:52:54 PM
Thanks for your replies. Below is a picture of the shaft, it doesn't look that bad. frankly the lever splines are in worse shape, despite it being a NOS one I got from Silvers. Clearly slipping on the shaft hasn't done it any good. Of course even just whipping the lever off wasn't straightforward, as the footrest was in the way.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgnwP2dR/IMG-4338.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqzbqzVN/IMG-4339.jpg)

James' solution looks like a good last resort cure, however I'd need to find the right screw, as well as buy a matching tap.

the-chauffeur's ebay shaft looks in worse shape than mine. It may be worth buying for the pizza wheel in the long term though, however as with all my engine internals I was lucky that my engine appears to be low mileage, and mine was in very good shape.

Of the two that ash found, the CB500T one looks in good (possibly even NOS) shape, however with a slightly different number (040) I'd need to know it fit, as I found with the oil pump 'con rod', even a slight difference can lead to unforseen issues. I may search the twins forum to see if I can find out. Not sure if he posts to the UK as the ad is all in German. The other one, there's only 1 photo it isn't clear whether its any better than mine. I don't do welding, and a part that would leave me stranded if the weld failed probably isn't a good thing to learn on, though I could pay someone to do it properly.

I'm still tempted to try and cut the slot wider, as I tightened until it closed completely, but the lever still slipped.




Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 17, 2020, 03:34:13 PM
Dave ..... Werner ships to the UK all of the time .. he is shipping me a late CB550F cam cover with the pinned shafts next week. He may even know if the 500T one will fit plus he has a lot of stock not on eBay yet (like my cover for example).

You can ask him here and may geta better deal direct. He speaks very good English and seems to know his stuff on Hondas. Much easier to deal with regarding questions on items than DK.

sayonara-cycles@web.de
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on April 17, 2020, 03:37:12 PM
Sorry Dave that shaft is finished as far as the splines are concerned.

I would definitely go with the grub screw fix as a set of taps versus stripping the engine is a no brainer.

I have also fixed these on kick starts by drilling right through the lever and shaft and fitting a spring roll dowel. Worked very well and was a permanent fix and removable. Only, the rivet counters would be up in arms about a fix like that and would probably hang you.

The shaft has had it anyway so what's to lose. I know it's only a partial strip with engine staying in the frame but still a lot of work compared to a dowel.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 17, 2020, 06:21:36 PM
Grub screw it is, then, if Roy says its shot I'll take his word for it. It didn't look that bad to me, but he knows his onions (and Hondas).

I seem to have found a source, if so what size do you recommend? Obviously I want to get the screw first, then buy a tap. Somewhere I have the T piece part, if I can find it that is (Probably with my set of Whitworth taps, which I haven't used or seen for years).

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CONE-POINT-GRUB-SCREWS-ALLEN-SOCKET-BOLTS-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-A2-STAINLESS-STEEL/182216457364

As far as the rivet counters go, there is already such a grub screw retaining a large nut on the end of the non standard rear brake / centre stand bolt. If anyone's that picky I'll tell them to get a life (or point out it's actually a K2 in K1 clothing and really blow their minds).
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 17, 2020, 07:32:45 PM
Personaly I don't think that 'fix' is rivet counter territory. More like spot the bodge territory ..or Bubbas's been there.

 I  think I would do that fix as a temporary expedient but get hold of a replacement shaft and even if you never need to fit it you can hand it to any new owner and show your hand. After all you went to a lot of trouble to build the bike to a very high standard.

Nobody has mentioned two blobs of weld yet  ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on April 17, 2020, 10:49:27 PM
That fix would be going on mine to keep the bike on the road for the summer. Also gives you time to find a decent shaft instead of having to buy the first thing you see. Shame all the jumbles are cancelled. Nice little project for the winter months. Cheers Bubba Roy.

Not a chance a fix like that would stay on one of my bikes after the riding season was over. However I have done the dowel trick a few times for other people and every one has ended up a permanent fix.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 18, 2020, 01:56:53 AM
According to a couple of posts on the US twins forum, spindles off any 5 speed 450 / 500 are interchangeable, so I’m very tempted to order the 500T NOS looking one that Ash first listed, I’d rather do a permanent fix even if I do have to strip the primary drive to do it. The part number is subtly different however the 500t one fits the CB450 K5, and so does mine, according to CMS even though my 030 one isn’t listed for the 500T and vice versa, the 040 isn’t listed for the K2.

Update: just bought it! It was 44 Eu with postage, CMS listed it at 113 plus p&p, though not in stock. Here’s hoping it fits.

The other used ones are worse than mine, and if I don’t have to weaken the new shift lever by drilling a hole in it I won’t.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 18, 2020, 07:55:41 AM
Nice one Dave .. I have been looking at this and Roys 450 restoration logs  over the lockdown,  as I am getting everything together for my own '67 Bomber engine.
Quick question though .. when looking for an exhaust cam (mine has good journals but one quite deep pit on one lobe) .. at what year /model was there a change in design so that it won't fit an earlier 450? How do you recognise the changes?  I tried calling Newman Cams a few times  yesterday but no reply although they are still operating according to their FaceBook site. My general feel from talking to Franco Cappenelli is that any deep pit needs hard welding and I am not sure how cost effective that may be versus getting a decent used cam. Buying used is such a lottery though and at least with the one I have I know the journals and lift are good. Luckily the inlet cam is near perfect and I have 4 very decent cam followers.

Well ... not so quick question in the end  :D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 18, 2020, 12:52:37 PM
I can’t tell you exactly when it changed, but a point to watch is the drive for the points advance retard gubbins. Later versions seem to have a slot for a woodruff key, mine has a hardened pin, driven in at a right angle just outboard of the last ‘step’ which engages with a slot in the back of the advance unit.

As mine is a ‘69 bike it may well be the same arrangement as your ‘67, just make sure you look very closely at seller’s photos of that area as they are not interchangeable.

Some have, like mine, three diameters outboard of the left hand cam, later ones have four.

Edit: looking at the CB500T strip article you posted on your Dropbox, that still has the pin, but also the four diameters, maybe that’s the difference I remember, just look very closely at that area and compare with what you’ve got, as I had to.

I had a look at what’s available on eBay, some I wouldn’t even use as a paperweight. My original is on my office windowsill, perfect lobes but broken damper ring retainer, you are welcome to it if you don’t find a better one. However as I reasoned, there’s always a risk that the damper ring makes a bid for freedom and blocks an oil way somewhere.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 18, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
I can put of jobs around the house for years, literally, but if my bike needs me....

Although my selector shaft is yet to be posted from Germany, the bike is in bits ready. I also need a new shaft seal, but at least I seem to have found my oil leak at last (it was a new seal, but is clearly oily on the outside).

The shaft was in worse state than I thought, underneath the splines were practically invisible!

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zK3SMVG/IMG-4341.jpg)

Ashley may recognize the box I'm using to keep the bits together, I think its the one he sent me a CB750 crank in. Note the condition of the clutch parts, something else that points to this bike having done a stupidly low mileage.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdvL33rV/IMG-4342.jpg)

Here's a good tip for anyone restoring a 450, and something I'd completely overlooked. I had wondered why, when I serviced the bike that the oil spinner was cracked, so I had a close look at the oil filter rotor once I'd removed it, using the same tool as I bought to get my CB750 clutch off.. I had just refitted it straight from the parts box, it turns out it needed a serious decoke! The ledges that the outer and inner parts of the oil spinner seat against were invisible, covered by gunk from the oil that had gone completely rock hard over years of storage, and was as hard to shift as anything I've ever scraped from the top of a piston. It explains why the spinner was so hard to seat that I actually broke it trying to get it in far enough to fit the circlip.

At least I have the Heffalump-Dumpaloon to go out and do essential booze shopping while I wait for the parts to arrive.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on April 18, 2020, 11:35:04 PM
Glad to see your taking the time to repair it properly Dave. Hope the replacement fits okay.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 19, 2020, 02:03:13 PM
Yea Dave always best to do a proper repair on a project you spent so much painstaking effort on. Next time I ship you something large I will put it in the full one of those containers C/W sealed lid... the crank one was cut down !

BTW only other person to call me Ashley is the missus .... and only when she's mad at me  ;D ;D
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 19, 2020, 07:34:05 PM
Sorry Ash (?) I know how you feel, I’m only ever called David on forms and in court.

Which reminds me of an old joke, apologies in advance to anyone from Liverpool:

Q What do you call a scouser in a suit?

A The accused
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: JamesH on April 25, 2020, 08:01:35 AM
Sorry Ash (?) I know how you feel, I’m only ever called David on forms and in court.

Which reminds me of an old joke, apologies in advance to anyone from Liverpool:

Q What do you call a scouser in a suit?

A The accused
Ha this made me chuckle
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on April 26, 2020, 02:57:27 PM
Well the shaft turned up from Germany, via DHL, on Friday. By Friday Tea Time I was out on an (essential Journey) test ride. :) Slight corrosin in patches, but nothing a polish didn't fix.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RV4hZGLG/IMG_4366.jpg)

I got the verniers out and measured everything I could, as far as I could tell, the only difference between the 030 450 part and the 5T part was a different rivet where the selector pivots. The new oil seal for the shaft arrived via courier earlier in the week from CMS, It cost Eu 9 along with a new O ring for the oil spinner, the carriage was Eu14. Silvers had one of the seals on special order only and the other out of stock, so no choice really.

Anyhow, I think you'll agree this looks rather better than before. I had to use a small wedge to open up the slot in the gear lever to go over the new splines. Ash, thanks for finding me this part, really the chances of finding anything like that as NOS are getting exceedingly slim.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9F0hsPD/IMG-4367.jpg)

The test ride was a success, much easier to find neutral now, it must have been slipping around before. Nice evening and good to get out of lockdown for a quick spin.



Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 26, 2020, 05:17:08 PM
Great stuff Dave ... My first port of call is always Germany now.. sad to say but they seem to be much more honest and generally have nice parts. Maybe they used to change their oil more regularly than us ... dunno.
A used parts dealer  in Germany just found me a lovely late and fairly rare 550 rocker cover last week complete with the rocker shaft retainer pin mods for about 2/3 of the price DK wanted for a standard 500 one without the modification.

Top Tip .. special order from David Silver  usually means they are buying it in from CMS on a mutual agreement to sell each others parts. That way you can save CMS's high postage costs for small items by buying from DS.  I know this because I got DS to ship me a nigh on £500 CB250 NOS exhaust from their USA outfit at the end of last year. It arrived and they had cocked up the P/N so it was the wrong side and I sent it back. So then I was chuffed when I found CMS  had one at about the same price and free postage, as it was over their purchase limit where you get free post. Girl from CMS then emailed me and said they had to 'locate' it in an external warehouse to photo it. Turned out it was in DS's warehouse .....  the one I had just returned and wrong side part number. I think CMS used to also buy in from Western Hills Honda in the States until they bought up all of their stock.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: royhall on April 26, 2020, 05:30:16 PM
Your dead right about that Ash. I have had a lot from Silvers that turned up in CMS wrapping and also an item that was sent directly to me from CMS but ordered through Silvers.
Title: Re: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration
Post by: MrDavo on June 23, 2020, 07:02:15 PM
Just a quick update as she approaches 1,000 miles since rebirth...

In case it helps anyone in the future, recently I've been sensing that she doesn't have the power I thought she had, and a definite 'fluffy spot' around 3,500 rpm, that was so bad the other day that I thought I was going on reserve. I nipped to the garage to find the tank was 2/3 full, so not that then.

Definitely carburation in my eyes, as it was only certain throttle openings and not all the time. Luckily nothing has been messed with since I had her running perfectly, so no sense in fiddling with any settings. A look on Google for CB450 misfires didn't achieve anything other than making me laugh, at someone who thought it would be OK to have ignition condensors that just flopped around between the coils, rather than being earthed.  ::)

Anyway before I went out today I checked the filter in the fuel tap, by unscrewing the bowl underneath. A load of little flecks of rust from the bottom of tank in the bowl, being sucked up to partially block the gauze when the throttle is open no doubt, then settling down out of the way at lower openings. The brass mesh is very fine (OEM from Trigger & Julie) so I reckon nothing's got through into the carbs.

I cleaned the mesh and bowl out and went on my errand - problem fixed 100%, CL450 running as sweet as a nut. Time taken, 5 minutes, cost £0.00 - result!
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