Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Mikep328 on September 06, 2023, 08:17:29 AM
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OK...so is there any functional or 'quality' difference between the two? If this forum didn't exist, I would probably buy the "genuine" filter because it 'sounds better' but if there is no actual difference, I don't see the point in spending more money for the same thing.
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Well, I don't think I've ever had a genuine oil filter. I wouldn't be surprised if Honda bought theirs from different people down the line. Just don't go super cheap. There is a video comparing things here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ-W0_KZTbE
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Hi-Flow 401
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Hi-Flow 401
That's what I've got Julie, I liked the colour of it too! ;D
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"Well, I don't think I've ever had a genuine oil filter."
Sorry, I should have specified that the "Genuine" and "Aftermarket" are descriptions used on the DS website. Their Genuine filter is £10.66 and their Aftermarket filter is £4.95.
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On the DS filters, dont think anyone could make reasonable assessment without knowing spec etc.
Think in that choice I'd go manufacturer item unless someone could indicate why the other would match.
Check the service schedule for the bike too, as often it'll state two oil changes per filter, which reduces cost by half without compromise. Mainly the oil change interval on these is to cope with fuel dilution anyway, with the filter easily able to competently cover the stated service life Honda gave.
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"Well, I don't think I've ever had a genuine oil filter."
Sorry, I should have specified that the "Genuine" and "Aftermarket" are descriptions used on the DS website. Their Genuine filter is £10.66 and their Aftermarket filter is £4.95.
Just a thought, do you use cheap oil as well?
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"Well, I don't think I've ever had a genuine oil filter."
Sorry, I should have specified that the "Genuine" and "Aftermarket" are descriptions used on the DS website. Their Genuine filter is £10.66 and their Aftermarket filter is £4.95.
Just a thought, do you use cheap oil as well?
No. I use Westway 10 W40 T4 Mineral oil, good enough? :o
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"Well, I don't think I've ever had a genuine oil filter."
Sorry, I should have specified that the "Genuine" and "Aftermarket" are descriptions used on the DS website. Their Genuine filter is £10.66 and their Aftermarket filter is £4.95.
Just a thought, do you use cheap oil as well?
No. I use Westway 10 W40 T4 Mineral oil, good enough? :o
We can get into so much details about oil "tin hat" time :D but the highest priorty of whichever oil is used will always the be condition of the oil during it's service life.
Dilute (fuel from short running) it to any significant degree and it's fugged, first to be compromised is usually camshaft, on any engine. Makes filter discussion almost completely academic if the oil's not kept in good condition.
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I'm certainly with Nigel on that one,
When you look at the price of a gallon of fuel (do you remember gallons) and how far that will take you before you need another and then look at a gallon (or thereabouts) of expensive oil and how far that will normally take you - I think it doesn't make sense to skimp on oil and filter changes - and I was born in Yorkshire tha' knows! However if Graham reckons that Hi Flo filters are OK for an engine that he had to give a guarantee on, then I see nowt wrong with those.
Ian
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Check out motorcycleproducts.co.uk for prices, pages and pages and look at all of them as same thing on different pages, plus same filter on all fours and gl 1000
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After having an aftermarket filter completely collapse at high speed on a motorway I would never recommend anything but genuine Honda. The filter looked like it had been wrung out, spiraled in shape. The mesh filter in the sump was almost completely blocked with fibres. The filter came from my local Honda dealer BTW, they sell for profit, they don't seem to care whether it's fit for purpose or not.
The damage a faulty or poorly manufactured filter can cause and the expense of fixing the engine afterwards should point you to buy genuine IMO.
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I'm certainly with Nigel on that one,
When you look at the price of a gallon of fuel (do you remember gallons) and how far that will take you before you need another and then look at a gallon (or thereabouts) of expensive oil and how far that will normally take you - I think it doesn't make sense to skimp on oil and filter changes - and I was born in Yorkshire tha' knows! However if Graham reckons that Hi Flo filters are OK for an engine that he had to give a guarantee on, then I see nowt wrong with those.
Ian
Honda oil filters have always been at rip off prices and Honda don't even make oil filter. It is just a oil filter in a Honda bag these days ( came in boxes before).
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They stop at nothing now to fleece us of 'hard earned' - I got 2 genuine spin on filters for my new Forza - as it's still under warranty and I have slotted extra changes in - they each came with the extractor cap in BZP steel. I've already given quite a few of those away from the GoldWing and CBF days - grrr!
Ian
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A lot of the spin on types come with the tool these days. A lot of manufactures have a toque setting now because of the high pressure oil pumps.
The main Land rover dealer near me employed a guy in his mid 50's to be a service technician. After a couple of weeks of him working, they had a number of Range rovers and Land rovers returned with blown engines or massive leaks. He was putting the oil filters on and doing them up hand tight ( as he has always done ) The o'ring had been blown out due to the oil pressure :o
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On the DS filters, dont think anyone could make reasonable assessment without knowing spec etc.
Think in that choice I'd go manufacturer item unless someone could indicate why the other would match.
Check the service schedule for the bike too, as often it'll state two oil changes per filter, which reduces cost by half without compromise. Mainly the oil change interval on these is to cope with fuel dilution anyway, with the filter easily able to competently cover the stated service life Honda gave.
Been using Hi-Flo filters for a few years, they meet the stringent German TUV approval rating if that's anything to go by.
Although on most other critical engine stuff I prefer genuine Honda parts when possible.
http://www.hiflofiltro.com/catalogue/filter/HF401 (http://www.hiflofiltro.com/catalogue/filter/HF401)
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Been using Hi-Flo filters for a few years, they meet the stringent German TUV approval rating if that's anything to go by.
I was in Germany for years I remember the TUV as Germany's super strict MOT equivalent, I didn't realise it extended to oil filters. :o No wonder so many poor motorists have that sign in the back window that says until the TUV us doth part or words to that effect!
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I view it as a circular argument, if the oil does its job properly, then you dont "need" a filter.
Observing what's trapped in the filter, shows what failed in the lubrication abilities of the oil and system in which it's operating ;D
The oil is absolutely the primary protection for a running engine, the filter primarily stops SOME of that debris going round the system again, meaning the oil failed to what was asked of it.
The filter doesn't stop PRIMARY wear, the oil does.
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And what is the only neglected, important part of the system that uses unfiltered oil?
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The oil pump.
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Youm is too smartish Ken, how many rebuilds you seen when people havent even looked at the pump?
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A lot of the spin on types come with the tool these days. A lot of manufactures have a toque setting now because of the high pressure oil pumps.
The main Land rover dealer near me employed a guy in his mid 50's to be a service technician. After a couple of weeks of him working, they had a number of Range rovers and Land rovers returned with blown engines or massive leaks. He was putting the oil filters on and doing them up hand tight ( as he has always done ) The o'ring had been blown out due to the oil pressure :o
Interesting detail. I work quite a bit on VAG cars and haven't seen a spin on for years. They compromise of a "canister" into which the filter element is placed, then a top like a bowler hat shape with o-ring groove in the threaded portion that "sleeves" down inside the canister bore. No way out for o-ring, very easy to tighten, and low torque. Thought they were a bit M-Mouse when came across them originally, but absolutely excellent design and no metal filter housing to dispose of. I appreciate thinking that's really clever like this.
And 36mm socket fit to work them, same as my Triumph front sprocket nut ;D
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I view it as a circular argument, if the oil does its job properly, then you dont "need" a filter.
Observing what's trapped in the filter, shows what failed in the lubrication abilities of the oil and system in which it's operating ;D
The oil is absolutely the primary protection for a running engine, the filter primarily stops SOME of that debris going round the system again, meaning the oil failed to what was asked of it.
The filter doesn't stop PRIMARY wear, the oil does.
. Firstly, I will admit to only using genuine Honda oil filters, and keeping a written log of mileage/oil changes etc., and yes, living close to Silvers does help! Re. the need for filters, during the 60'and 70's I worked for London Transport buses, and at that time they operated 7,000 RT type vehicles equipped with AEC Diesel engines using a dry sump system and NO oil filter! A strict service regime was operated and they lasted an incredible long time.
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A lot of small Honda's never even had a oil filter. ;)
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Youm is too smartish Ken, how many rebuilds you seen when people havent even looked at the pump?
Quite a few Bryan. Seems it's something they overlook.
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Yet in the car world you would never rebuild a Ford, Vauxhall or BMC without repacing the pump
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On a lot of my CB750 oil pump builds, i would have to replace with new gerotors. Not a cheap rebuild.
Worked at Willesden engineering, rebuilding fleet Vauxhall and Ford engines which was so much easier and you were expected to do at least 12 units a day; Crank reground with oversize shells, rebored with new pistons, new valve guides, valve seats, valves, new cam shafts and all new rocker components, new core plugs, gaskets and seals,, new oil pump, new oil pump and so on. Which was cheap ;)
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Reminds me of the days when BL did Gold Seal replacement engines.
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Reminds me of the days when BL did Gold Seal rerplacement engines.
My brother was driving to work one day in his Austin Allaggro when it broke down. The RAC came out and said the petrol pump had failed. The patrolman went and got a new one fitted it and my Brother went to work. On the way home the car made a nasty noise and stopped. RAC came out and said the petrol pump had broken. Unfortunately the metal pump arm had broken off and dropped into the engine causing it to seize. When my brother told the RAC patrolman the pump had only been fitted that morning by another RAC patrolman they took full responsibility and fitted a new gold seal engine. However the car remained a heap of junk. He used to wear motorcycle gauntlets in the winter driving it because the heater took so long to heat up by the time it did he'd driven the 10 miles to work!
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On the DS filters, dont think anyone could make reasonable assessment without knowing spec etc.
Think in that choice I'd go manufacturer item unless someone could indicate why the other would match.
Check the service schedule for the bike too, as often it'll state two oil changes per filter, which reduces cost by half without compromise. Mainly the oil change interval on these is to cope with fuel dilution anyway, with the filter easily able to competently cover the stated service life Honda gave.
Personally speaking I have always changed the oil and the filter together. I know the book says change the filter at every second oil change but I could never get my head around sending lovely clean and expensive oil through a dirty filter. I used to use genuine Honda filters but now use Hi-Flo and change the oil and filter every 1000 miles. I change the oil on the 250RSA every 500miles (this engine only has a washable gauze filter).
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I agree I would never change the oil without also replacing the filter.
I'm also a fan of Hi-Flo & Mahle filters.
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There exists the delicious irony that if the oil performance is as you"d really hope it would be, any platform for judging a filter is not there ;D
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I've got to say I also never change the oil without changing the filter. Just seems wrong not to do and the cost was never prohibitive.
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There exists the delicious irony that if the oil performance is as you"d really hope it would be, any platform for judging a filter is not there ;D
About 8/10 years ago I came across a US site where a private individual looked at various brands of screw on type replacement oil filters on the market doing a pretty comprehensive job of dismantling them to show the different types of material used, how the drain back valves worked comparing what you got for your money.
Sadly I did not keep the link but it was very interesting reading some of the findings over a period of time as he developed his knowledge and improved his testing methods.
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I've also seen that Ted.
I seem to recall that the OE filters were made of better paper. The main difference was the filter paper and not many of the aftermarket filters came close. Some were pretty appalling at filtering TBH.
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Yes it was Ken, at the time we had a Nissan r3mR that came with a set of new fillter from the PO they were branded Boschi.
When I fitted the new oil filter the oil light took ages to go out after the car had stood for a few minutes. I did not move it off our drive I went to a local firm & fitted a Mahle one - problem sorted - poor valve unit in the canister.
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I was watching one yesterday with someone from Poland? doing the testing.
He said something pretty interesting which I didn't know. It sounds plausible so maybe it's correct.
One of the test was for flow rate, a litre of oil was suspended over a container which had a portion of the filter paper inside it, the oil was timed to see how long it took to pass through the paper using just gravity. What he did mention though was that the oil needed to be warm, 30 degrees I seem to recall. If it was cold the oil just didn't pass through, or it did but like 2 drops every minute. So he claimed the oil in the engine bypasses the filter via the relief valve until it's thin enough to pass through the filter, not something I was aware of but is it true?
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
How many PSI is gravity Bryan ;D ;D ;D
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
How many PSI is gravity Bryan ;D ;D ;D
There is a relationship there that has an effect. If he put more volume there, above the test site, it should exercise more pressure on the membrane from increase in mass. And why waterproof stats give hydrostatic pressure figure to illustrate this, I brlieve.
I've seen it the other way round, having to pump liquid up floors in a building, arranged for pump etc but it couldn't lift the liquid at that specific gravity the required amount, as soon as the tube filled up the pump head couldn't exert enough pressure to move that column. Had to use expensive high pressure stainless steel pump heads and reduce the pipe diameter to get it lifted effectively.
Also, if you reduce pressure in a pipe then even Mercury will be pulled up as you've reduced atmospheric pressure acting on that mass from 14.7psi to lower and let effectively made the Mercury mass less, how vac tube carb sync gauges work.
And another thing, where the moon is in relation to earth, it's own gravity in opposition to earth's then causes the sea water to rise, as in the tidal movement.
I'm nowhere near good enough at physics to place maths on top of this ;D
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Hiflofiltro has been manufacturing filters for the OEM motor industry since 1963. With the experience of more than four decades, constant research and development and modern production facilities they manufacture today some of the best quality filters in the world. Hiflofiltro is the complete range of motorcycle filters engineered to extreme quality standards to provide ultimate engine protection.
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The competent filter manufacturers should be able to produce filters that at minimum can't give any problems, structurally or other issues.
Cost is obviously a consideration through whichever channels they are bought, whatever their maker. But ultimately can't absolutely show technical performance just by that metric.
The question with DS choice more nuanced, which manufacturer made it ? And if we don't know that we can't have a reliable technical performance either. In addition, if that supply just buys any maker that is then sold on, are there any supporting analysis if there's a mix of these manufacturers? And how would DS know and corellate any failure with batch production identification or similar. Id doubt if there's anything in the way of report on real performance from their two lines offered, or could be wrong there.
It seems that both Honda and Hi-flo brands are well regarded and most definitely their experience is available to back up their manufacturing competency.
Unspecified brands, who knows in reality, and do you want to verify it with your own bike ?
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
How many PSI is gravity Bryan ;D ;D ;D
There is a relationship there that has an effect. If he put more volume there, above the test site, it should exercise more pressure on the membrane from increase in mass. And why waterproof stats give hydrostatic pressure figure to illustrate this, I brlieve.
I've seen it the other way round, having to pump liquid up floors in a building, arranged for pump etc but it couldn't lift the liquid at that specific gravity the required amount, as soon as the tube filled up the pump head couldn't exert enough pressure to move that column. Had to use expensive high pressure stainless steel pump heads and reduce the pipe diameter to get it lifted effectively.
Also, if you reduce pressure in a pipe then even Mercury will be pulled up as you've reduced atmospheric pressure acting on that mass from 14.7psi to lower and let effectively made the Mercury mass less, how vac tube carb sync gauges work.
And another thing, where the moon is in relation to earth, it's own gravity in opposition to earth's then causes the sea water to rise, as in the tidal movement.
I'm nowhere near good enough at physics to place maths on top of this ;D
This is basic biology and physiology surely 😂😂😂😂 For a pump to work at its optimum efficiency, the volume and viscosity of the given fluid needs to be at its 'standard' norms for it to pump correctly. If a pump is designed to do it's optimum job, as an example, with the heart and blood pressure, two factors need to be determined. The amount of blood the heart pumps (volume) and how hard it is for the blood to move through the arteries (force) . The more blood the heart pumps and the narrower the arteries, the higher the blood pressure. So by thinning the blood artificially by say Warfarin, although the volume stays the same, the less force is required to be exerted by the pump to give the same outcome.
Therefore, going back to the oil filter question, it would appear that the viscosity of the oil would be a major factor in determining the volume of oil moved as a PSI rate 😁😁😁😁😁😁
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... as an example, with the heart and blood pressure, two factors need to be determined. The amount of blood the heart pumps (volume) and how hard it is for the blood to move through the arteries (force) . The more blood the heart pumps and the narrower the arteries, the higher the blood pressure. So by thinning the blood artificially by say Warfarin, although the volume stays the same, the less force is required to be exerted by the pump to give the same outcome.
Oh Julie
Now you've got me checking my pulse and feeling dodgy!! :o ;D
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As i remember it you have tp put an apple on your head and get william to shoot it of, then measure the weight of the brown stuff leaking from your left trouser leg, double it, and the number you first thought of and go back to sleep after 50 hors and 3,000 km in 4 shifts
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
I assume when you say gravity you mean standard air pressure at sea level - it's about 14.7 psi or 34 ft of water in a manometrer pretty sure most pressure gauges already take this into account?
When you check your tyres at a garage & the reading is 30 psi that is not absolute pressure but the differance between the atmosphere & your tyre so its relative pressure.
With regards to oil flows fluid mechanics are pretty complicated as we tend to assume fluids are not compressible we make assumptions about changes in viscocity & density that change with temperature. Not to mention none Newtonion Fluids or one of my favourite subjects powders that can act like liquids and defy normal logic when you try to mix them & Thixotropic fluids.
At a fixed oil pump rotation speed the volume of oil pumped (as opposed to weight) should ideally be constant regardless of the viscocity of the oil assuming pump efficiency losses are as close to zero as possible at a constant temperature.
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Doubtful Ken the pump pressure beats gravity by a helluva lot
How many PSI is gravity Bryan ;D ;D ;D
There is a relationship there that has an effect. If he put more volume there, above the test site, it should exercise more pressure on the membrane from increase in mass. And why waterproof stats give hydrostatic pressure figure to illustrate this, I brlieve.
I've seen it the other way round, having to pump liquid up floors in a building, arranged for pump etc but it couldn't lift the liquid at that specific gravity the required amount, as soon as the tube filled up the pump head couldn't exert enough pressure to move that column. Had to use expensive high pressure stainless steel pump heads and reduce the pipe diameter to get it lifted effectively.
Also, if you reduce pressure in a pipe then even Mercury will be pulled up as you've reduced atmospheric pressure acting on that mass from 14.7psi to lower and let effectively made the Mercury mass less, how vac tube carb sync gauges work.
And another thing, where the moon is in relation to earth, it's own gravity in opposition to earth's then causes the sea water to rise, as in the tidal movement.
I'm nowhere near good enough at physics to place maths on top of this ;D
This is basic biology and physiology surely 😂😂😂😂 For a pump to work at its optimum efficiency, the volume and viscosity of the given fluid needs to be at its 'standard' norms for it to pump correctly. If a pump is designed to do it's optimum job, as an example, with the heart and blood pressure, two factors need to be determined. The amount of blood the heart pumps (volume) and how hard it is for the blood to move through the arteries (force) . The more blood the heart pumps and the narrower the arteries, the higher the blood pressure. So by thinning the blood artificially by say Warfarin, although the volume stays the same, the less force is required to be exerted by the pump to give the same outcome.
Therefore, going back to the oil filter question, it would appear that the viscosity of the oil would be a major factor in determining the volume of oil moved as a PSI rate 😁😁😁😁😁😁
Yes Julie, and very good contribution too. Some considerable time ago I put a link from someone on an USA forum that I believe is a consultant heart specialist, and with a view I hadn't readily considered.
Most informative he was too as he seemed to have collected some desirable high performce cars and was writing about the oil system characteristics and limitations based on his field of expertise. I learnt quite a lot from that.
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To give the tester his due, he did mention using the right viscosity oil in the engine as being something you should do as a matter of course.
I seem to recall he was using 30w but don't quote me on that. I suppose as a test to test flow rate it was as good as any, they all had to do the same test. The OE filter vastly outperformed the aftermarket BTW, oddly there were 2 OE filter manufacturers, one was Purflux and the other de Mann, the Mann was far superior, the Purflux was around the same or slightly better than aftermarket. Aftermarket BTW was K&N.
As for Hiflo being TUV tested, that's fine, but how many others have been tested and failed? If the answer is they haven't been tested then the TUV test whilst being good doesn't mean it's better than all the others. It just means they spent money the others haven't. That could mean something or nothing.
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Alot of the "testing" just seems to echo marketing bollux, thats all the stuff I've watched.
Does anyone know what criteria are tested for TUV accreditation ? and how that can impact an essentially obsolete Honda engine using oil now available that's substantially different in reality from that available when Honda designed it. Certainly it's very difficult to see how the TUV intent could cope with that. It's meaningless without knowing these things.
High flow (not hi-flo the named brand, I'll make that clear) and filtering to very low numbers in micron size are two diametrically opposed qualities, and extremely difficult to reconcile.
By it's very nature, a very low micron capability all but ensures low flow. And...it gets worse very quickly IF it catches much in the way of debris. This arrangement is emphatically not suitable for full flow systems like engine lubrication as flow is definitely king in the performance profile. Else you'd need a filter material area tge size of several football pitch.
Some claim "capable of filtering to X sized micron level" but with nothing to suport that projection in practical use while in service.
It may be that with an indirect pass through (separate pump just running a filter loop round to clean the oil) and not the main supply to the bearings, it could approach those numbers stated. But they don’t indicate under what conditions they test them to make that claim. Worthless unless that data is given, and in context of these Honda systems, which I doubt is being critically tested by anyone.
There's so many views of debris, in filters, in sumps, on components etc. But where do they think this comes from ? Only from failure of the oil to prevent wear in the first place.
Its not really a success to filter out all that muck, just demonstration that the oil has failed in some way. The filter, whatever it's manufacturing prominence, will simply not stop that happening.
Most reviewers don't appear to know what they are talking about.
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One of the reasons I liked my original Honda 250 Dream was the centrifugal oil filter no element fitted just had to clean it out - boy did it catch some muddy type particles.