Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: haynes66 on January 31, 2018, 07:46:07 PM
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just a quick recap. back in february last year, i started a thread about my prr/britain projects; the britain more or less complete but dismantled, and the prr something of a mishmash. the bulk of the bodywork, wheels etc came from ukpete on here, the genuine prr frame came from john white, our resident prr specialist and a suitable low mileage donor bike came from james down in sunny sussex. i intended to be well into both bikes by now but life sometimes comes along and punches you in the face, and it's been a long slow process to a recovery of sorts. at this moment i'm doing ok and i'm at the point where i am confident enough to tackle both projects. having been brought up on a diet of fordson majors, nuffields, massey fergusons and various other items of farm machinery, i am confident in my mechanical ability, but i've been really struggling with the confidence (and confidence generally) to tackle a 750-4 motor which i have never worked on before. but thanks to watching peter andersons very helpful youtube videos and gaining inspiration from a number of rebuilds on here, nurse julie's 400-4 restoration especially, i finally plucked up the courage to go for it. the three pics below are the prr as bought, the britain as bought (the prr frame also in the pic) and the donor bike.
(https://i.imgur.com/schrl3j.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JUdoVhr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DwK5551.jpg)
i'm using the haynes manual along with a printed copy of the honda workshop manual, essential if youre not over familiar with these engines, and i also tend to be a little OCD about labelling, photographing and making notes as i go along. i also lay everything out in the order of dismantling otherwise i wont remember the rebuild sequence.
(https://i.imgur.com/FvJnwQJ.jpg)
the barrels were seriously stuck on and it took a lot of persuasion to free it. once it came off, i was surprised to see that two studs were really corroded and the rust had bonded quite solid into the head. just goes to show that even very low mileage bikes can have a little surprise for you when they are opened up.
(https://i.imgur.com/qdSXatY.jpg)
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Great to see you getting stuck in there again. I'm sure I will learn a lot from this thread. Good luck with everything.
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ha, i dont think so!! but thanks.
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Great for you to restart the projects. Use the forum for help.and lots of pictures.
Best wishes
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What I have always found is focus on getting the frame done first, then the engine and everything else can just be bolted on. And off when you find out that it is not right ;D
In all my years, I have still not built a bike for ones self. I have a 750 engine has been built for the past 3 years, the frame in the front bedroom looking like a new pin, swinging arm fully rebuilt leaning up against a wall somewhere and the rest of the bike in draws and crates ??? I will get round to building it one of these days.
So, don't worry your not the only one.
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Good to see your back on it Pete - as Trig says, start at the frame. The number of abandoned projects on ebay that have resulted in failured as people do a bit of everything without seeing any overall achievement results in losing confidence. Small steps whilst achieving a finished item results in a buzz out of achieving something will drive you on.
Good luck!
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when i rebuilt a little TL125 a few years ago, i did get the frame and everything else done first. you feel as if youre over halfway there already. the problem with these two is the lack of space. the frames and pretty much everything else is hidden in the school where i work and they will be brought back bit by bit. once the engines are away for painting, i will get the frames done ready for the rebuilt engine to go in. my shed is 2 metres wide and 5 metres long. bit of a squeeze with two 750s and a little yam!
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Space is always a big problem. I moved out of my 15,000 sq ft place to 3 x 500 sq ft had to give away loads of machinery :'( But, I could never find anything in the big workshop. The more space you have, the more you think you need ;)
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Good luck Pete you will be fine there will be ups and downs but take your time and your be ok
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What I have always found is focus on getting the frame done first, then the engine and everything else can just be bolted on. And off when you find out that it is not right ;D
In all my years, I have still not built a bike for ones self. I have a 750 engine has been built for the past 3 years, the frame in the front bedroom looking like a new pin, swinging arm fully rebuilt leaning up against a wall somewhere and the rest of the bike in draws and crates ??? I will get round to building it one of these days.
So, don't worry your not the only one.
Exciting project Pete ..Will watch with great interest ..I wonder if Henry Cole will share a few restoration tips with you ;D ;D ;D
Graham ... You just kind of summed up 10 of my 11 bikes in that description :-[ :-[
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I am sure you will progress well now you have started. :)
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it's coming apart nicely so far, but the countershaft bearing holder screws are seriously tight. i have an impact driver but i wonder if that's advisable... any suggestions?
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it's coming apart nicely so far, but the countershaft bearing holder screws are seriously tight. i have an impact driver but i wonder if that's advisable... any suggestions?
I have drilled the heads off with a sharp 6mm drill on very low speed, has worked every time for me. Then just wind the remaining threaded part out with pliers or mole grips, it is always the head that causes the problem, and that sorts it.
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that would be a better option. i'm a little reluctant to use the impact driver around so much alloy
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that would be a better option. i'm a little reluctant to use the impact driver around so much alloy
That was my thinking first time I ever did one, the countersunk heads make it grip over a relatively large surface area, that's why they are so tight, once the head is drilled off I have never found the threads themselves to be tight / stiff, can usually be unscrewed with your fingers.
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More recently I've been using an impact driver bit that on its own I tap with a hammer into the screw head to make sure it's fully fitted ( if the screw's head has been butchered a little, I peen the damage back in gently with a ball peen hammer).
Then use a screwdriver / drill with the torque clutch set low and just buzz it to get the screw to release. Don't use one of the impact screwdrivers, you just need the clutching to give a rotary impact if that makes sense. It seems to get most things undone without putting much stress into the assembly.
You have to be able to lean on the drill to make sure the bit doesn't back out of the screw cross.
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I have a 80 per cent rate of getting these buggers out, heat up the machine screw, take a PH3 and tap it home to break the seal and turn it out on a wrench. It doesn't always work so as said before, drill it out with a left hand drill bit.
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thank you all. i combined the last two posts to come up with my own solution which removed three of the screws but i mashed up the fourth (my own fault). i did a quick search before posting this and came up with nothing, so i posted my solution on the 'tricks and tips' page for others to see.
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3 out of 4 is not bad ;). Some of these little buggers will fall out and the rest of the little buggers just don't want to move. This is what makes my job interesting, every engine is different even if it is the same model ;D
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the rest of it came apart reasonably quickly and i'm now at this stage.
(https://i.imgur.com/CYjCOdj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OqbTEsM.jpg)
it looks very good internally so i think it's just a case of making sure all the bearings are good and renew all the seals etc. it all has to come out over the next few days so that will keep me busy for a while. i'm on a diet but i think i deserve a nice coffee and some dark chocolate after all the dismantling work!
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Great progress and no nasty surprises like I had stripping my engine :'( :'(
Mm mm, Coffee and dark chocolate, the perfect recipe for a sleepless night ;D ;D
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So its not just me than can take a blurry photo ;D Looks nice and clean, check the primary chain tensioner, if it is hard and brittle then replace. Once these have gone hard, they tend to bounce and then chip away if reused ;)
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i will do, thanks. and it's not blurry, it's warm and fuzzy!
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I thought that may be a fuzzy instagram filter app you've been using all this time Trigger to give that artistic impression :) :)
Haynes66, good you've got them out and the main bearings all look pretty good too.
I didn't say back there, but I don't usually turn the drill torque up much but just keep going at it with what I perceive to be micro pulses of torque and they normally start moving as unable to resist the vibration.
Also if as you found, if you can't quite see the alignment clearly you can use a drill chuck to 1/4inch drive adapter, then put a socket set extension bar onto it to eventually drive the screwdriver bit. You get a much clearer view of the drill being kept straight on to the screw head then.
This also works on those little exhaust flange nuts that can get corroded and difficult to undo without shearing the stud on F2 motors.
As spoken on that motoring show "you're in over plum depth now" so you've got to keep going, doesn't feel too bad once you get stuck in.
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I wish I could see the pictures bit they are not coming up on my phone
So i am imagining it all by the description , I remember with my f2 numerous seized bolts and lots of stripped threads in cases and especially cylinder head
Which needed thread repairs, trigger mentioned once the name of the decent thread repair kits
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i've been really fortunate so far as its low mileage. engine no 2 shouldnt be too bad either as its only done around 24000 miles. my 500-4 engine will be more of a challenge as it is seriously rusty. it may end up as scrap but it's a long way off yet. these two will take me probably well into next year, i should imagine.
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everything is pretty much stripped engine wise, other than the kickstart quadrant. i've tried everything to try and remove the roll pin but it wont budge. i'm going to leave it there as it wont really be a problem. another issue is the two rusty cylinder studs. i've given them a soak in plusgas and leaving them for a while but it could be a little difficult to get them out.
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Them roll pins come out easy, I use a small pair of vice grips to squeeze it and pull it out. How bad are the head studs ?
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most of the studs are fine apart from the two rusty ones. if i heaved on them, they would definitely snap, so perseverance will be necessary, along with heat, wax, praying, anything but brute force.
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You could always try what Ian (Orcadian) suggested with my seized stud. Plenty of diffused heat, WD40 or similar, clamp stud in vice, still attached to casing, and turn the whole casing. More heat if needed and same with WD. Worked a treat with my corroded in head stud.
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i have done that in the past but these are quite thin in places and you tend to get a feeling if they are about to loosen or snap. by turning the casing, you dont get that 'feel'.
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Fair do's. I suppose me being a novice I didn't know what 'feel' I was 'feeling' for 😊😊. I wasn't going to remove any of the head studs but as one had to be mullered to remove the nut, I had no choice.
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novice?? i dont think so. not many people would tackle an engine rebuild. but believe me, i have butchered many a piece of machinery over the years to gain a little mechanical sympathy. it comes with age, i suppose..
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Age has nowt to do with it its when frustration kicks in!
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well, i got five out so far, including one of the rusty ones but the others wont budge. i've left it for now for two reasons. 1. it's always best to walk away for a while instead of pushing my luck. 2.my wife was cross with me for using up the gas in her creme brulee torch...
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well, i got five out so far, including one of the rusty ones but the others wont budge. i've left it for now for two reasons. 1. it's always best to walk away for a while instead of pushing my luck. 2.my wife was cross with me for using up the gas in her creme brulee torch...
They only need to come out if damaged or very rusty ;)
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i know. but i have this thing in my head that tells me that if i put a new one in, the others will be old!
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i know. but i have this thing in my head that tells me that if i put a new one in, the others will be old!
No Problem, get the two rusty ones out and I will send you two good second hand ones ;)
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sounds like a fair deal! i'll attempt the other one in the next day or so.
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These only need replacing to upgraded ones if you are going for a higher compression rating.
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I usually find the front middle studs are stubborn
I never fail to get them out with lots of heating double nut on top then taping with hammer while trying to undo
Like it has been said don't push your luck just keep doing it without too much force , last stubborn one took 3 days of this treatment till it finally let go
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finally got all the studs out after soaking them in coke. the rusty one was touch and go as you could see the shaft twisting before letting go. all the engine bits are having a good gunking tomorrow night ready for cleaning and painting.
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finally got all the studs out after soaking them in coke. the rusty one was touch and go as you could see the shaft twisting before letting go. all the engine bits are having a good gunking tomorrow night ready for cleaning and painting.
glad you could get some of the white powder,just don't sniff it !!!
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;D ;D
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bit of a set back as i dropped my engine cases etc for blasting and painting at a company in reading, but the wait is at least six weeks. never mind, i'll plod on with the frame etc while i'm waiting. on the plus side, i found the owner of the actual phil read TT winning bike which is incomplete, but i did touch the engine in a pervy way!! every cloud....
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In Reading?
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the blasters are in reading, the race bike is in the cotswolds area.
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Try I Cleenz Machines. They are based in Penge, SE London. They do a lovely job of vapour blasting and painting.
They also attend all the Kempton Park shows where they will collect and return parts if nearer to you.
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so here we are again, attempting to drag myself out to the shed. my engine cases are nicely painted so that's a bit of an incentive.
(https://i.imgur.com/oXRNK2b.jpg)
but i noticed after taking all the masking off that i made a classic mistake. i left the countershaft bearing in place. Doh!! never mind. DS will be pleased...
(https://i.imgur.com/46PeDU0.jpg)
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Looks very Black ;) Looks like the cases have been bead blasted ?
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they were aqua blasted but i'll be giving them a blow through and a wash before doing anything. there is no visible medium anywhere but the ali feels dusty, if you know what i mean. the outer case with 'honda' embossed will need careful sanding to get the original finish. going through my DS shopping list at the moment.
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The fecked bearing is just a STD NTN 6204 ;)
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Always an incentive when you begin to see the hard work paying off. Well done, keep posting the progress.
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thanks trig. i wasnt sure which one it was on the parts list.
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bit of a set back as i dropped my engine cases etc for blasting and painting at a company in reading, but the wait is at least six weeks. never mind, i'll plod on with the frame etc while i'm waiting. on the plus side, i found the owner of the actual phil read TT winning bike which is incomplete, but i did touch the engine in a pervy way!! every cloud....
I'm confused, i thought you lived in Carmarthen, but you dropped your cases off in Reading ? Is there not a company closer that can do the job ?
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i chose cox's in reading as they do allen millyards cases, so good recommendation. another reason is:- one son in uni in london and the other at oxford so sort of en route really. the Britain engine isnt getting the full treatment as i know it ran in 2013 or thereabouts, so the only parts for blasting will be the top end, by a company down pembrokeshire.
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Hello haynes66,
An alternative source of vapor blasting, and other restoration services, is Griff's Reality Motorworks in Bristol.
http://realitymotorworks.com/ (http://realitymotorworks.com/)
They do excellent work at decent prices and might be more more conveniently located for you.
Cheers Geoff
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thanks for that. i must say i am a little surprised at the work on these cases. as i'm removing all the masking tape, there is a fine pink dust in places and it does look as if the insides of the cases have had a blasting. it means a bit more washing down and blowing everything through with an air line. the bearing i removed also had fine grit in it. the finish is good though.
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finally dragged myself out to the shed and made some progress. i'm waiting some assembly lube to keep the shell bearings in place, but that's the bottom end done, mostly.
(https://i.imgur.com/FiooUA3.jpg)
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Keep going Pete. I have not got anywhere this year with my projects
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Looking good Pete, onwards and upwards now.
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Looks really good, I like the stage of building up when everything is all clean and ready to assemble.
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having watched the entire peter anderson youtube vids on his 750 rebuild, i followed his lead and loosely assembled everything, connected a cordless and spun the gears to see if all the gears work. very satisfying to watch the cogs change gear!
(https://i.imgur.com/8RcoVpN.jpg)
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assembled the other case. just waiting for a sprocket oil seal from DS before the 'hondabond' moment.
(https://i.imgur.com/JfHUJuQ.jpg)
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a Hondabond moment ?
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I think Hondabond is the joint sealer
Like Hydramar but posher
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If you are useing a jointing compound between the crankcase faces, will this not alter the bearing clearance ?
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its a very thin coating so shouldnt be an issue. it's what honda used during assembly.
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although technically, a hondabond moment is when you meet a fellow honda enthusiast and get on really well...
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although technically, a hondabond moment is when you meet a fellow honda enthusiast and get on really well...
You are on top form tonight Pete 😊😊😊😊
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i've got that friday feeling ;D
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i think i may have discovered why this engine has only covered 6000 odd miles. while reassembling the clutch cover, it didnt sit right and there were some odd gouge marks on the inside face. on checking my parts diagram, i noticed that a part was missing - the clutch lifter cam plate. a round disc thing with a pin sticking out of it. i had a look on DS and there are two different prices. £14 on the 'search by model' and £50 on the 'search by part number'. i shall ring them tomorrow unless someone has a spare.
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Looking Good Pete, not done a lot to my Phil Read replica, May put it up for sale on here.
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not done much to it for a while as i've discovered being a teenager again, riding my firestorm stupidly everywhere! i've become one of those blokes i used to 'tut, tut' at as they shot past me. i must be on my third mid-life....
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i've become one of those blokes i used to 'tut, tut' at as they shot past me
Made me laugh - I know that feeling - good on you and go for it !
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not done much to it for a while as i've discovered being a teenager again, riding my firestorm stupidly everywhere! i've become one of those blokes i used to 'tut, tut' at as they shot past me. i must be on my third mid-life....
Bloody Hooligan ;D ;D
It is the only way to clear all those cobwebs out ;)
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Just been reading about this project. looking forward to the next instalment ;)
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Have you got any fairing parts for the Honda Britain, I need the bottom bit and the left hand side bit as well many thanks
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Ask in the “Desperately Seeking” section John. If anyone has any or knows of any they will be along.
Welcome by the way!
If you are restoring one of these, start your own project thread. We need lots of pictures.
Steve
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Has anyone got the paint codes for the Phil read replica
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I'm sure they can help on here
http://www.cb750f2hondabritainoc.co.uk/index.html
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Thanks
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sorry ive not been on here for a while. there is a new honda britain owners club whatsapp run by john white. not sure how you join. i have his mobile if you need it, jonny