Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Project Board => Topic started by: royhall on May 02, 2015, 08:22:07 AM
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Hi all. Since we have a new thread for projects, and I cant sleep, I thought I would give it a go! Not done this before so stick with me, I will sort the mess later as I learn. ;D
The 350 was bought unseen (I know) off eBay due to it being fairly complete and VERY cheap. The speedo and the USA paperwork say the bike has done 8061 miles. I don't think so, personally I would put it at more like 38000. Hooked up a good battery and a few squirts of carb cleaner had it firing for a couple of seconds, so there's hope. Obviously the thing wont run as it's well gummed up, and wouldn't risk the engine trying anyway. But anyway, I think it's a good starting point.
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One item I am unsure about are the clocks. All the 350's I have seen so far have the warning lights mounted on a centre console. Mine appears to have just plain handlebar clamps. The frame number suggests it's an early bike so maybe it was changed later? Cant find any info on this so if anybody knows what that's all about, give me a nod.
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Got the strip going and the wiring is a mess!
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Anyway will have to sort the wiring at a later date. The bike came apart fairly easily mainly thanks to liberal amounts of PlusGas. Have got the engine on the bench now ready for a full strip down. Was hoping to just do the top end, but from what I have found so far I think a full strip down is the safer way to go.
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Will post some more as the restoration moves on and time allows. Let me know if I'm boring you or you've seen it all before. Cheers all.
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I reckon a PO has deleted the warning lights console. You've got to have a low warning light at the very least. Some of the earlier Hondas has them in one of the clocks, but not on yours.
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Cheers Mike. Strangely I got some replacement clocks from DK that look like they have the lights in the clocks. Have tried to check this but cant find any info at all. DK are insisting they are 350f clocks. Will post some pictures of the replacements this afternoon. May be imagining it. :-\
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Mystery solved, I think. The replacement clocks that DK sent out are not 350F although the insist they are. Guess they are going back and I'm on the lookout for some decent clocks and a Warning light panel & harness.
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Great project roy , although i know nothing about the 350f, i will be watching your progress
pete
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The CB350f gauges are angled drive, the ones in the image are straight ones and these have only one bulb to illuminate the gauges. As far as I recall there should be two. I would suggest the ones sent by DK are an early 350 twin and I would have thought with the number of 350F's that DK have though their hands they would know they were wrong. If you look on ebay USA there are quite a few 350f gauges so at the very least you will be able to see the correct ones, fair to say those listed are rough but could be restored.
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Thanks Kent (can I call you that). Strangely I have just posted a thread about these clocks to see if somebody in the know could identify them. We must have been typing at the same time. They are most definitely not 350F, I think they must have got wrongly labeled at their warehouse, as I have never had a problem with DK before. Just looking for a model range they came from so I can stick em back on eBay. Cheers.
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I reckon CB450K4 :D
See this for bracket ID
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB450-450-72-SPEEDOMETER-TACHOMETER-MOUNT-SPEEDO-TACH-/150985257417?hash=item23276c31c9
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Been a busy weekend of stripping bike parts and bagging up.
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Got then engine on the bench at last, doesn't look too corroded so should split okay.
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The head, barrels and pistons are burned black. Lots of evidence of piston ring failure. Think a re-bore and new pistons coming up soon.
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Gearbox looks good so just the cush drive rubbers and seals there really. Bearings feel like new.
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That's the engine apart, now for the frame to get it out for powder coating. Will need to look into finding a good painter for the coloured bits.
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Thats my favourite part taking things apart, then they tend to stay like that for a long time
pete
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Engine moving along nicely now, just waiting for the German guy to get the bits to me. Bit of a dilemma about changing the shells whilst its apart. The originals don't look bad and with the price being a bit hefty I'm tempted to put them back. Is that a false economy. Anyway, the casings have been bead blasted and cleaned, and are ready for paint.
Engine moving along nicely now, just waiting for the German guy to get the bits to me. Bit of a dilemma about changing the shells whilst its apart. The originals don't look bad and with the price being a bit hefty I'm tempted to put them back. Is that a false economy. Anyway, the casings have been bead blasted and cleaned, and are ready for paint.
Engine moving along nicely now. Just waiting for the German guy to get the bits to me. Bit of a dilemma about changing the shells whilst its apart. The originals don't look bad and the price being a bit hefty I'm tempted to put them back. Is that a false economy? Anyway, the casings and castings have been bead blasted and cleaned, and are ready for paint.
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Found a new cleaner/degreaser that's water based and works like a miracle. Cant really stress how good this stuff is, I was amazed. Have been using paraffin up to now, but its smelly and dirty stuff that's hard to get rid of when your done with it. Also the wife wont let me in the house when I've been cleaning parts, says I smell like a petrol station. It's a water based detergent that says non hazardous on the tub. But its not Fairy liquid, and its definitely not "Kind to your hands" wear gloves.
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While waiting for bits, I had a go at alloy polishing. The alternator cover was accident damaged with some very deep grazes in the bottom of it. Was going to replace it with a DK item, but thought I would have a go first as if I scrap it nothings lost. This is what 4 hours of work now looks like (the cover plate is new DSS). Love it when you can reclaim a scrap item back to looking like new again.
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Just waiting for the re-bore and the bits to come back. Next job is to paint the cases and prepare for the engine build. Any comments or advice on the shell bearings, or any other comments on anything would be very welcome (always learning from more experienced). Back soon with more.
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Good work Roy, I'm just waiting for the powder coating to come back then I'll start the next bit.
It has become quite clear that a lot of my 350 is junk. So it will take a bit longer and cost a few quid more.
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Post some pics of the bearing surfaces of the shells(make sure you know where they came from) and i will give you an honest opinion, and I am not a politician so it will be
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Will sort that tomorrow morning Bryan. Have got them in separate bags labelled top/bottom numbers 1 to 5. Wife says I'm obsessed?
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Definately not obssesed as they could well be different sizes between journals
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Bryan. Some photos of the shells. Cheers.
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A few score marks on those.
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Don't like No's 2 & 4 lower or 5 upper, rest i would reuse
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Thanks for your help guys. After consideration, I think I will change them all. Probably the safest way to go and hey, its only money. ;D ;D
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Hi all.
Going to order some new shells, but first I think I had better run the sizes past you first as its not exactly simple the first time around. The code on the back of the crankcases are as the photo.
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I am assuming from the Clymer manual that I will be ordering 6 Brown shells & 4 Green shells for the mains.
The conrods are all marked 2 on one side and C on the other side. Does that mean 8 Green shells? They also have a cast in mark of S2A on one of the rods and S3A on the other 3. Am I correct with the shells?
Many thanks. Roy.
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Cheers Oddjob, its more complicated than I first thought. I think I get it now though. Letters on the casting are the OD of the shells, on the cranks its the ID of the shells, so to speak. So the table refers to two measurements. By gad, I think the boys got it!!! ::)
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Okay guys, what happens when the lettering on the crank is just simply not visible. Have carefully miked the journals after checking the mike with slip gauges. They all mike the same at 1.2590" and that is the boundary between one colour and another. Now I'm properly stuck for what to do. I can only get 4 numbers off the crank 1A, 2A, !A, 2 and that's it? Letters on the back of the crankcase are BBBCC. How do I proceed. Cheers.
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Okay got some numbers, picture below. Its the picture from the other thread so ignore the white lettering mine is the black marker pen. Certain of them all except the very left one, could be a 1 or 2 but my guess is 2. That web is a bit messy as it's been weight drilled right where the marking should be. They all mike up exactly the same at 1.2590" mains and big ends. All the conrods are C2. Casing stamps are BBBCC. There are also some bits of colour left on the sides of the shells (not enough to be reliable) but will use to try to double check the left main journal.
So if somebody can check my homework for me, this is what I get.
All big ends are 2A (yellow)
Mains are: B2 (brown), B1 (Green), B2 (brown), C1 (brown), C2 (black), What do I do about this Black one as they are obselete.
Hope that's all correct. Thanks everyone especially Oddjob, man your a star.
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This site has some left
http://www.hondarestoration.com/partNumberResults.asp?partNumber=13314-333-003 (http://www.hondarestoration.com/partNumberResults.asp?partNumber=13314-333-003)
Due to postage it may be better and possibly cheaper to buy as many of the shells from there as they have, they have a couple of browns, some greens but no yellow rod shells
Checked your results and they seem spot on.
Checked them out, they are Blue AA not Black A. (13315-333-003). Blacks are discontinued everywhere it appears. The journal mikes up exactly the same as the C1 Brown next to it, so not sure why it should be a different shell. Perhaps Honda weren't that accurate in 1972? Not sure what to do.
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They don't have them either. Been through every website that Google threw up this afternoon, it was a long two hours. Appears that Blacks are completely discontinued every site says the same. Don't know why I cant just use a brown. Its a C2 on paper but it mikes up exactly the same as the C1 next to it. Pretty sure I wont be getting a Black anytime soon, so will have to make a decision based on actual measurements rather than 43 year old numbers. What do you think.
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The only supplier I have ever had success with for obsolete parts is WesternHills Honda. You will need to email them with a part number to see if they can get or even have them. Few years back they got me a couple of the difficult 500 selector and didn't charge over the top either
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I have had this problem recently with my 400 four.
Searched for days for 4No main bearing yellow shells, read some stuff and some folks seemed to think the tolerances were so fine it didn't matter. An engineer supplier I use told me it wont matter, he was totally sure and has worked on engine set ups for years.
I resigned myself to using a shell size down making the journal effectively loose, bought the shells.
Eventually found a supplier in the states with the shells I needed, bought and fitted them.
I confess I have never seen black or blue for sale but maybe brown.
I have 4 green ones if ya want em part number 13317-333-003.
btw nice project
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Couldn't agree with you more Col. Don't really trust the numbers and letters thing. I spent the first 20 years of my working life as a Toolmaker (precision engineer) and have virtually every precision measuring device ever invented. So tomorrow am going to measure the casing bores and crankshaft journals to the 1/10th thou then make my own decision on the shells. Honda used production (fast) techniques to measure these parameters 43 years ago, and without sounding like a clever dick, I can carefully measure these components better than they did. Will then compare my results to there's and see where I am then. I am willing to bet I find errors!!
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Honda used air gauges on the line mate, incredibly accurate
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Good point Bryan. But a good quality micrometer and a gentle hand are also incredibly accurate, and my measurements are not agreeing with there's. 43 Years of use may have made some difference. Going to have to go with the actual measurements not what they were historically as two of the crank numbers are so light and hard to see its really a best guess. Then the black shells are unobtainable anyway. Will do the sums tomorrow and see what comes out. They may end up tallying with Honda's numbers anyway? Cheers Roy.
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Problem you got is I think Black is the thickest shell so if the pins are worn you may have problems. I wouldn't bother with the casing holes as unless the shell has spun there is no wear and at least its not like Fords where they have a standard hole size and a plus 10 thou hole size for if the boring machine hiccups then they dont scrap a block---makes buying parts a b*tch
I have built several 500 and a couple of 750's(way back when) engines with all black shells and run in carefully with no problems and i know the race boys used to go one thinner than stated to get more oil round and not need bedding in.
When you work out the difference between smallest pin largest hole as against largest pin smallest hole i seem to remember you are in the tollerance range of a grinding machine anyway
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There's the AA Blue shell that's available in the States.
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If they are available, use them mate, only ever seem blue colour on Wing shells, but then never had to fit shells to a 350 or 400 either!!
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This place sez they have 7 AA shells in stock but $15 each(also 5 B 13316-333-003 but no black)
http://www.hondarestoration.com/photodetail.asp?hrPart=13314-333-003
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Hi all.
More on the shells later when I get a chance to measure up. Been using the fine weather to get the engine painting out of the way. Had all the castings bead blasted then a really good clean out with heavy degreaser and a flush in hot water. Got everything masked off ready.
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Spray painted everything with Simonize aluminium finish engine enamel. Looks okay and a nice finish. It sprays really well without runs etc and dries fully within 30 minutes. Gave everything 3 coats.
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Wife's away this weekend visiting daughter No.2. So whilst theres the opportunity to get it all in the oven to cure.
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What she doesn't know she cant complain about. Got in real bother last time with the 750. Had a price to stove enamel the castings £225 plus VAT so that's a big saving. £21 for the paint, £15 for bead blasting, £12 for degreaser. Well pleased with the results. Next installment will be the engine going back together.
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Okay. Back to the shells. Have done some very careful measurements. Have torqued up the crankcases and measured the two outside journals with telescopic gauge and micrometer. I agree with Honda they are B&C. Cant check the inners with a telescopic gauge as I cannot get the gauge out after the measurement. An air gauge would be perfect for this job. So will assume the other three journals are correct.
Measured the crank journals, mains and big ends, and they are all exactly 1.2590" not even a tenth thou in them. Checked for taper and ovality and all bang on. Top marks to Honda for managing to build a crank to those tolerances. Impressive. Torqued up the conrods and measured them, they are as Honda states all No.2s
Checking the tolerances in the manual with my measurements I get the following, Mains 1-3 are green 4-5 are brown. Big ends are all green.
Using the crank etchings, Mains 1-brown, 2-green, 3-4-brown, 5-black. Big ends are all yellow.
Colour coding on existing shells is still clearly visible (paint on side), Mains 1-4-brown, 5-black. Big ends all brown.
What an utter load of nonsense that lot is. Very little correlates together. Either Honda have put the wrong shells in this engine or (more likely) it's been rebuilt before and the mechanic used the wrong bearings (or whatever they had on the shelf). Well I trust my own judgment and measurements so am going with the top line which is what the ACTUAL measurements are. In any case if you go from the largest bore size to the smallest crank size there is only 1 thou and 8 tenths difference anyway. Just goes to show it's never wise to just trust somebody else, always check and double check. Mistakes get made.
Decision made now so I am going to get the shells ordered tomorrow. I've been so careful with this I am confident I am right. 8)
Checked through the rest of the engine parts and all appears to be in extremely good nick. All the bearings feel like new, no wear on the selector forks etc. Am very impressed with the engine in general, there are some very well made parts in there. Top marks Honda.
Now the engineers bits finished, time to put the mechanics hat back on (this is where things may get tough). ;D ;D
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Very interesting read Roy, I look forward to see the finished motor. Might be picking your brain in the future when I have my engine apart. That is a way off yet.
Tim
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Thanks Oddjob. I was just looking at the paint for further confirmation really, had no intention of using it for replacements. As you rightly say some of it has deteriorated, but some is still surprisingly clear.
I would rush to point out that I am no mechanic and have no experience with Honda four rebuilds at all. One week ago I had no idea about the colour codes on Honda's shells, but Oddjobs superb explanation sorted that out.
The real problem started when I could not really be sure about 2 of the numbers etched onto the crank webs. The first two could have been either 1 or 2, so being the engineer I wasn't settled with that. Then for No.5 the black shells don't exist any more. Then the actual Honda workshop manual does not even mention crank numbers, it advises to measure yourself. I realise that most people don't have the tools to measure a crank to a 1/10th thou, but with my previous job as a Toolmaker, I do (your local engineering shop would measure it for you cheaply). And when measured it revealed that the crank etchings on two of the webs were in fact wrong. If any member that lives near me a Blackpool would like to pop in (kettles on) and re-check it they are most welcome. I am 100% sure the original measurements contain mistakes.
On No.5 it was fitted with a tighter shell (black), and the amount of wear showing on that shell is more than on the others. The thing is though, the difference between the largest diameter case bore to the smallest crank journal is only 1.8 thou, not a lot. You wouldn't want to, but you could probably fit any shell to any journal and with careful running in it would be alright. That's possibly why you can only get Green and Brown now, the middle tolerance bearings.
For Honda to make a crank to such good tolerances is nothing short of superb, but they have Human Beings in the mix and that means mistakes. It is just impossible that Honda turned out every engine to perfection with zero errors. People make mistakes, that's why they put rubbers on the end of pencils. ;D By the way talking of mistakes, the Haynes manual has a mistake in the shell sizing table, misprinted tolerances.
I'm happy with my measurements, and all you can do is go with what the actual sizes are. If it seizes up first time out I shall fall on my sword. ;)
Big thanks to Oddjob for a top explanation of how the coding system works, cheer mate!!
PS. Just looked, and this has taken pages of the thread. Sorry, Just hope it helps someone else.
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Interesting project Roy and great detail ... I remember my first 400/4 rebuild way back in '81. I got a crank & rods from a breakers in Hull that had done less than 1K miles but I had to get main bearing shells to mach my crankcases so I genned myself up and went into the 5-Star main dealers in Hull for them to check if I had chosen the correct shell colours. None of them had a clue so I just ordered them and fitted them and they worked out fine.
and yes Honda do make mistakes like here:-
As far as I can make out they never corrected it until the 1977 Shop manual.
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Now I'm doing it as well. The mistake in the shells table is in the Honda parts book and not the Haynes manual. Bloody humans, keep making mistakes.
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Finally got back on the 350 project. Have got the black stuff out for powder coating at PX Wheels in Poulton-Le-Fylde. Had him do my 750F2 and he made a cracking job of it. Also says it will be ready Wednesday next week, that's a one week turnaround. Not got it back yet but he only took 10 days to do the 750 so its looking good. The chromings gone out as well, opted for RS Electroplating as he's a forum member and he gave me a good price with a 5 week promise. So until it all comes back its on with the engine.
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Quoted me £210 plus the dreaded for the chroming, not too bad as some of it is pretty rusty. The powder coating is £110 and no VAT for the frame plus all the brackets, swingarm, chain guard, battery box etc. Very pleased so far.
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That's a good price for the chroming and powder coating Roy.
I've still got to go through my chrome bits and decide to keep or replace.
Fork Stanchions are now at Philpots.
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As you can see from the amount missing from the picture Tim, most of mine was replace. To be honest most of the original brightwork was just scrap. Had a price to do the back mudguard and it was 50% more than a replacement as the rust pits were so deep. My fork stanchions are pretty rusty behind the headlight ears and shrouds as its not chromed but the working area is spot on, so think I will de-rust with a brass wire wheel and just treat them. To be honest I've got to economise somewhere as the rebuild is going to cost way more than the bike is worth ::)
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Started building up the 350 engine at last.
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Just about ready to mate the two halves, but cannot remember how many dowel pins were locating the crankcases. There are two 10mm at the front of the engine, does anybody know if there should be more. Cant find any other holes where a dowel would fit.
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Except for that, the engine rebuild is going okay for now. More later.
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Are there two at the rear of the engine.
Part number 15.
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb350f1-four-1974-usa_model434/partslist/E++18.html#results
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Yes I think there are two at the back. I have some 8mm dowels but I cant for the life of me find where they fit. Should be the same on the 400 so somebody will hopefully know. With a bit of luck somebody will put me straight before tomorrow so I can carry on getting the engine finished this weekend.
Should be picking up the powder coating tomorrow. So hopefully if I can get the engine together tomorrow and Saturday, will try and get it back in the frame.
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Don't know if this is any help ....
The 400 Parts List does appear to show 4 dowels (2 off 8x14, 2 off 10x14, parts 330 and 331). Not clear where they go though.
The Haynes manual in the section on reassembling the crankcases says 'replace the two dowels' (section 44.3).
Member andut is rebuilding his 400 engine, maybe he can help.
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I cant trust the Haynes manual for the 350 as its written for 350/500 and the engine they are using is a 500. Although for the main components they are the same, you cannot trust the detailed stuff as there are just so many differences. The Clymer manual is similar in that its written for 350/550, although in that one there are separate diagrams for the two.
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I know what you mean about Haynes manuals. I think it was the one for the CB450 (Black Bomber) that neglected to mention putting the kickstart shaft back in when rebuilding, then you realise there is a spare hole in the crankcases and some bits left over .... fortunately before I had gone too much further. Wish I still had that one.
The Haynes manual for the 400 is written for the 400 and 550 and has pictures specific to both. Unfortunately there seem to be none that show any dowels. I mentioned what it said as I saw it and it was the only reference I found.
Best I can suggest is contacting andut to see if he can offer any suggestions.
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Cheers Chris will send him a PM. Was hoping to get on with it this afternoon. Never mind its better right tomorrow as wrong today.
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Powder coating came back today, 9 day turn around is pretty good I would say.
Looks a nice quality job and all for £120 and just 10 minutes from home.
Am very pleased with it.
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Should look smart against the re-plated and stainless fasteners and the new chrome.
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Looking good Roy
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So would I Royall well chuffed with it nice one
Cheers
Bitsa
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Did you get an answer on how many crankcase dowels there should be?
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The general opinion is two 10mm dowels at the front corners. As I couldn't find anywhere else to put a dowel I went with that. Appears to have gone together okay, but would have been happier with one at the back. Wouldn't mind but I stripped it, didn't think I would need to photograph it or make a note as that was one of the obvious things. Two months later I cant remember a thing about stripping it, good job I photographed just about everything else.
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Got the engine together over the weekend. Looks like two dowels are all that's required after all. Very pleased with the way it went. The engines had the full house: Main/big end shells, gearbox bearings, primary chain, cam chain, cush drive rubbers, pistons/re-bore, 2 valves, 2 rockers, all gaskets and seals etc.
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Used loads of graphite assembly paste on all the shells and cam gear. Used a bit of oil as well as I just couldn't stop old habits. Belts and braces so should be okay.
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Can you tell it was just Fathers Day!
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Was a bit nervous about getting the gear selection mechanism back correctly. Don't know why I worried, turned out to be the easiest part.
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New pistons and re-bore went together no problem. The rings appear much easier to get into the bores than on the 750. Remembered to give the oil control jets a really good clean this time. ::)
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So that's the engine back together, went much easier than I had imagined. The 350 appears to be a well built and thought out engine. Next challenge is getting it back in the frame. More soon.
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Decided to tackle getting the engine back into the frame. Should really have waited for my mate to give me a hand on Friday night. But sorry I cant, like an excited child on Christmas night. Had a bit of a think about how to do it myself, and this is how it went. Now I'm just off to get some back ache pills.
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Got the engine on it's side and chocked it up with a block of wood. Then lifted the frame over the engine on the bench.
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Levelled the frame up a bit and pushed the front footrest bolt into position. Bit of pushing and pulling got the two lower front bolts into place. Just slipped the nuts on to stop the bolts falling out, then stood the frame up on the bench. Note the 6 pan head screws in the sump fixing holes, this was to raise the engine slightly because the starter gear protrudes just below the casting and scrapes on the bench.
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One Herculean effort saw me single handed lifting it off the bench onto a piece of carpet on the floor.
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I rebuilt the 750 sat on an old bear crate with some 18mm ply and carpet on top. Unfortunately the 350 wouldn't work on it as the side stand bracket hangs down on the left. So out with the woodworking tools and a few modifications followed. The missus says I need to get that driveway redone. Cant see anything wrong with it myself.
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All now safe as houses and high enough off the floor to get the wheels on and make working on it a little easier. Got a second bear crate there for sitting on. All the perfect height. Am running out of reasons to buy crates of Warsteiner.
Need to find a painter now and get the bits off to them. Recently realised that I cant get the bike rolling on its wheels without the painting done first. Headlamp ears and fork shrouds will be holding the job up.
Still plenty of other stuff to be going on with.
Stay tuned for the next adventure.
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Looks fantastic Roy. Your putting my slow build to shame, not had a lot of spare time recently.
I realised the same problem with assembling a rolling chassis. Painting parts has jumped to the front of the queue.
Who did the rebore for you?
Cheers
Tim
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Your well on your way with it Tim, were just approaching the jobs in different directions. You'll be there soon (I know what you mean about time, I'm getting some flack for always being in the garage. Apparently I'm obsessed) ;D Gardening this weekend. :(
The re-bore was done by a small machine shop near where I live. The guys called David Burton, he's a real eccentric character but a superb engineer.
I get a fair few bits done by him. He re-ground the back disc on the 750 as it was a bit tram-lined, came back literally better than new for £40.
Cant just remember what he charged me for the re-bore (possibly £80 getting old ya know), but I know it was much less than another quote I had and the job he did was fantastic.
If you want to when your ready, you can post your bits to me and I can drop them in to him, its no problem as its only about 1/4 mile away.
Cheers Roy.
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Your well on your way with it Tim, were just approaching the jobs in different directions. You'll be there soon (I know what you mean about time, I'm getting some flack for always being in the garage. Apparently I'm obsessed) ;D Gardening this weekend. :(
The re-bore was done by a small machine shop near where I live. The guys called David Burton, he's a real eccentric character but a superb engineer.
I get a fair few bits done by him. He re-ground the back disc on the 750 as it was a bit tram-lined, came back literally better than new for £40.
Cant just remember what he charged me for the re-bore (possibly £80 getting old ya know), but I know it was much less than another quote I had and the job he did was fantastic.
If you want to when your ready, you can post your bits to me and I can drop them in to him, its no problem as its only about 1/4 mile away.
Cheers Roy.
Looking good Roy..
You have just answered mine and JamesH's question. How much is it to re-surface a CB 750 brake disc? The 750K0 disc is different than the later bikes. My bike had the later wheel hub/disc (K1-K6) so I bought a K0 front wheel complete with correct hub & 'rotor' (disc) from the States but it's surface is slightly scored. I also have the original K1-K6 disk (not badly scored) and a K7 one, (not badly scored) . What do you reckon I should eBay them for BIN ?
Can you also find out the re-bore costs, as I may have some barrels to do off a twin.
Cheers ... Ash
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Thanks Roy, that would be really good of you.
I've just had a quote of £500-£550 from Andy bike paints to do the 350. A mate of mine used him and was very pleased with the end result. He has a website with previous work on it.
Cheers
Tim
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Blimey that sounds like a lot of money. May be learning the art of painting at that price. Was expecting under £300, don't know if that's realistic. But to be fair, there's not that much of it to paint. Going to ring a guy tomorrow I shall see what he says. Cheers Roy.
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Not really oddjob I live at the Fleetwood end of the Fylde at Thornton cleveleys.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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Painting candy colours is an art and a "cheap" tank alone is normally £3-400
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Painting candy colours is an art and a "cheap" tank alone is normally £3-400
Agreed .. it takes a real pro to spray Candy particularly Honda Candytone Gold. The going rate for a 750K has always seemed to be 500-550GBP (that's what I paid) so I would think 400 is about correct for a 350, as less components and particularly if the pinstripes are transfers because the 750K0 stripes are painted on.
I often wonder whether on colours like Candy Antares Red that there isn't a close match in straight modern metallic. OK it may not have the candy sheen to it but it's probably less noticeable on the darker shades. I sprayed my 400/4 and painted the stripes on myself way way back in 1986 using a metallic and it looked OK. I also know a sandcast that was sprayed blue/green with some old and now obsolete Vauxhaul (I think) colour rattle cans and it's used on the backdrop at the IOM on the Sandacastonly site. Looked pretty awesome to me when I saw it in the flesh, for that kind of paint !!
The 400/4F2 tank is here:-
[attachimg=1]
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Wouldn't mind paying £550 on a sandcast that's going to be worth the money in the end. But at the rate the quotes are going I am on target for spending 4.5k on a bike that's worth about 3k, so some things are going to have to be cheaper.
I like the sound of the more modern metallic paint. What colour would be closest to Candy Bacchus Olive?Or I may be better going for the other colour for my bikes year, the red colour (not sure what its called will have to check it out).
Can anyone recommend a good painter to do metallic that will do a good job at a reasonable price? Think me and Tiny Tim (he's also looking for a painter for an identical bike) will have to get some recommends on this.
Cheers all.
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Came across an article that said that Honda offered the 350 Four in two colours for the first two years — Flake Matador Red and Candy Bacchus Olive.
Someone somewhere will surely know if there is a modern equivalent.
I'd ask Mr Google ....
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I came across this today Roy.
http://www.ct70paint.com/honda-cb.html
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That's an American site, Try RS paints
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That's an American site, Try RS paints
Tried RS paints twice and both times the paint they supplied was c*#p, never again.
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Well here's the decals http://www.cb-4zylinder.de/cgi-bin/shop/__Tankzierstreifen-Honda-CB-350-F-in-orange-weiss-f%FCr-roten-und-gr%FCnen-Lack__370065024391-06d_01.09.html (http://www.cb-4zylinder.de/cgi-bin/shop/__Tankzierstreifen-Honda-CB-350-F-in-orange-weiss-f%FCr-roten-und-gr%FCnen-Lack__370065024391-06d_01.09.html) I can do all the prep work, whats needed now is somebody with a bit of skill that can shoot red or green metallic and clear coat. Anybody.
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Tried RS paints twice and both times the paint they supplied was c*#p, never again
That's worth knowing.
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Not made that much progress in the last week due to illness and commitments, damn it. The engine is nearly finished, just need the polished parts fitting. Polishing is the part that I really hate doing, such a time consuming and messy job.
[attach=1]
Finished painting the yokes and idiot lights and got them mounted in the headstock. Even took the time to grind the lettering off the top of the stainless handlebar clamp bolts and polish the heads.
[attach=2]
Swing arm went in no problem, fitted with new phosphor bronze bushes and new lower shock mounts. The new chrome on the shocks looks really good against the shiny powder coating.
[attach=3]
The picture from behind makes it look like the frame is bent, it's just the camera angle though honest. ::)
Got the battery/electrics/air filter box fitted. I found I've got no indicator flasher unit (something else to add to the growing list for Silvers). Also discovered that the ignition coils are damaged, does anybody know if the pattern coils that Silvers are selling at £29 plus vat are any good?
[attach=4]
The oil pump is still missing, am waiting for a new seal kit for it that's taking a while to get to me.
[attach=5]
That's all I managed to get done for this thrilling episode. Really need to knuckle down and get the polishing done this week. Wheels are next on the list, have found a local-ish chap that will rebuild them for £35 a wheel. Was going to learn to do them myself, hey maybe next time.
Chroming is finished (Mark at RS) and on it's way back. Will post some pictures when it arrives.
Bye for now.
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looks good,
about DSS coils,I fitted two 703 ? style coils to my 500,they fit and work well,with lots of HT lead length,
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Thanks John. Will go for them then, as they are a superb price. Cheers.
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Who/where did you get the rear shocks from?
Looks very good so far.
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Cheers Tim. Believe it or not they were an eBay purchase all of £60. They will probably bounce all over the place but at least they look good.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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Been neglecting this thread for a while whilst working on the bike. Now I have a spare hour I shall try and get a bit more up to date.
A few items have returned recently, the first was the chroming from RS Electroplaters in Manchester. Had a good look over it and all I can find wrong is a little bit of rust still on the rear brake pedal. As its only under the footplate cup and not seen, I fixed it with a rub down and some silver Hammerite. £210 plus vat and a 3 week turnaround is not too shabby I would say. Well done Mark Bray Cotton.
Talking of Mark Bray Cotton, Mrs Royhall saw his name on the desk and it turned out they lived next door to each other as children. Small world eh, didn't get me a discount though. ;D
The kickstart lever is missing from the photo as I had already fitted it before the picture was taken. Also the clock cups were just polished as they are stainless.
[attach=1]
Sent the clocks off to Kent400 who's well known on the forum. The original clocks were a bit of a mess so I tried to get some replacements off eBay, these turned out to be as bad. So I sent all 4 clocks off to Peter to make a good set from the lot. Turns out the eBay speedo was the best, that's why the recorded mileage is different.
A couple of before and after shots.
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
The first and last picture of the clocks really shows the difference.
I cant thank Peter enough for the great work he did, these clocks have literally come back like new. I wont say what he charged me as he is a forum member, but I will say, in my opinion it was very reasonable and worth every penny. I will have no hesitation sending my next set of clocks to Peter. A true craftsman. Thanks.
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Next job up, I decided to tackle the wheels. Like the rest of the bike these were a hell of a mess.
DSS must be making a mint out of selling the retainer removal tools for the front and back wheels. Still helps make the job go smoothly ish.
The front retainer came out quite well, but the rear took 3 days of PlusGas and heat before it would come all the way out. As is usual with fine aluminium threads it had "picked up" totally destroying the retainer and damaging the hub.
Got new retainers for front and back then took the hubs to my local superstar engineering shop (David Burton again). He put the hubs in the lathe and carefully re-cut the original threads. Did it while I waited and charged me a tenner, absolutely brilliant place. Afterwards the new retainers screwed all the way in with just slight resistance. Cant praise David Burton Engineering enough.
[attach=1]
With that out the way, I cleaned and re-polished the hubs. Decided not to lacquer them as it tends to go yellow, so gave them a liberal spray with ACS50 instead. Got two set of AllBalls bearing kits and pressed them in, the new retainers fitted like a dream.
I really need to cut the escalating costs of this build so decided to use the Union Cycle rims from DSS and standard spokes. The standard of the rims turned out to be really good so am pleased. With cost saving in mind I was going to have a go at building the wheels myself, but found a guy that does them for £35 a wheel. So it was not really worth me buying the kit to do the job (not really got room for any more gear either). I used Alan at Southport Wheel Building for the job and he was great (0151 234 9831).
I think the pictures speak for themselves.
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
Had a bit of luck and found a NOS speedo drive plate on eBay for £20 as mine had perished and was in three pieces. As is becoming the norm for pattern parts, I came to fit the rear sprocket and the drive pins wont fit without the sprocket being re-machined. These pattern parts are getting to be a pain (Bitsa will be smiling down). Another huge stroke of luck found me a NOS sprocket/pins/backplate assembly on eBay for £24. So just waiting for that to arrive.
I was going to have the brake disk re-ground but on closer inspection decided to have a go at polishing it. I think it came out really nice.
[attach=4]
Okay I think I'm up to date now. So signing off, more soon.
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Brilliant rebuild thread Roy and great that you are sharing restoration tips/restoration services/costs with us.
Ash
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I second what ash says, i am getting a bit enthusiastic about my bikes again and reading through your thread gives me inspiration, at one point i nearly threw the towel in and almost sold the sandcast, and k0, i did sell my f2 though
pete
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This is all looking very nice Roy. Looking forward to seeing the finished job.
Have you worked out what to do about your paintwork yet?
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Stunning stuff Roy.... making me jealous. And hear / hear to Peter (Kent 400) who's working his magic on a couple of clocks of mine - inc the Fizzy speedo.
I did my 400F wheels earlier in the year - polished hubs, new bearings, spokes, rims, the works - just wanted to look at 'em all day...
Thanks for the thread,
Lobo.
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This is all looking very nice Roy. Looking forward to seeing the finished job.
Have you worked out what to do about your paintwork yet?
Thanks Chris. Not had a lot of time recently to find a painter, but as each bit goes on it's getting more urgent. Got an idea I may go with Ashimotos suggestion of a modern metallic with the colour matched. I may be able to find a local car shop that will do that. Have ordered a set of decals and warning stickers etc from the states, a company called AFE Graphics. So am really waiting on these arriving then I can tour round the paintshops. Maybe get lucky who knows, but am going to have to keep the costs down. £550 is just too rich for this project, as I'm trying not to spend in total more than the bike is worth.
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In my experience 550 is about as cheap as a good paint job comes, a quick blow over with minimal prep would be about 250,
pete
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The paint makes or brakes a bike ;)
Mick
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Braking with the paint sounds exciting. I hear the MotoGP boys get their head down now as well as their elbow and knee...
Maybe that's what Scott Reddings had in mind :)
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Typo I'm not really that dim ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq-OMUwg2Gw
Miick
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Looking good Royhall!
I've been following this thread closely as seems very similar to the 400.
Out of interest, how did you refurbish your brake disc?
Andy
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The brake disk wasn't too bad so not worth the cost of a re-grind. Just cleaned it up with a course Scotchbrite wheel in the pedestal grinder. My rear disk on the 750F2 was re-ground by David Burton Engineering at Thornton-Cleveleys for £45, came out like brand new.
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Cheers Royhall, might give that a go myself. DSS are asking £125 for a new one, not including vat or delivery!
I just started a new thread, but probably should have asked you first, did you put any grease in your hubs when installing your wheel bearings?
I'm installing the same bearing kit, but wondered if the axle needs greasing first?
What gasket kit did you use on the engine build? Are DSS any good?
What graphite paste did you use and did you coat any other components other than the ones you mentioned previously in your post?
Or are there any good resources out there for newbie engine rebuilders?
This thread is proving very helpful and I'm loving your attention to detail.
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Hi.
The axle question is answered on your other thread.
This time round I used a gasket set from Cruzinimage (you can find them on eBay). As they come from Japan its best to order everything you need from them in one hit as they will combine the postage (email them first). Don't buy the front disk pads from them though, as mine don't fit.
Resources (I assume you mean books etc) a good parts book is more important than a workshop manual. Most have exploded drawings clearly showing where everything goes. It also has details such as bolt sizes which is very important on a 400/4 as some of the bolts need to be the exact correct length (ie. front engine mounts and engine case bolts). Unfortunately the available 400/4 parts book is probably the worst I have seen for a while as the drawings are very small and over stuffed with writing (PM Ashimoto he usually has a good stock of PDF documents). I find the Clymer manual to be the easiest to use, but that's down to the person, some swear by Haynes or the genuine Honda?
This is the first time I have used a graphite assembly paste, I usually just use clean engine oil. It is called Graphogen and its not cheap. It was recommended by Trigger so no reason to not trust it.
Glad this thread is being of use to members, and thank you for all the positive comments about it. Not sure about being an inspiration though, but just glad it helps. It makes the time spent doing it worthwhile.
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Just finished rebuilding the carbs. Got that carried away with it, I forgot to take the stage by stage photo's. All I have are the before and after shots.
This is what I started with.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Bit of a rusty clogged up mess I think you will agree.
Stripped the carbs right down and sent all the component parts off for polishing and re-plating where required. Had the bodies ultrasonic cleaned at the local lawnmower repair shop. A really nice old chap.
Totally rebuilt the carbs using new seal kits. They were really cheap, £25 for all four kits, so am hoping the quality is okay. Should add that they fitted really well so expect they will be good.
These are the after shots.
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
The pictures don't really do justice to how much better they look. Wish I had remembered the during shots, O well.
Am going to polish the tops again and possibly the float bowls as they still look a bit pock marked.
Not had petrol in them yet, but will bench test them before fitting.
Next project is to try to complete the back end.
I would say this bank of carbs (although a bit fiddly) was easier to do than the dreadful PD carbs fitted to the 750F2 that I did on my last project. So hope they will be easy to set up as well.
In all, I would say the rebuild took me about 20 hours in total. Would probably be less than that next time as this was the first set of 350/400 carbs I have done. Without all the re-plating and polishing, may be less. Worth it though if the bike is going to run well.
Bye for now.
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Looks v. vice roy. Do you do your own plating or outsource?
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Wish I could do my own plating James. It can be a bit of a mare sending stuff out (more getting it back really).
Maybe something I can have a go at on the next project as most of the plating on the 350 is done now.
Had a problem getting the carb bits done as nobody appears to want to be bothered with all the little pieces. Got it done in the end at an aircraft parts company in Preston, had to push them a bit to get them to take it on. When I collected it they said they would not do any more as its just not worth the time.
I really wish I'd had the carb bodies vapour blasted now as the dull alloy is letting them down. Would probably go back to the same over time anyway I guess.
Back looking for suppliers again I guess.
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Hi again.
Decided to do the pictures full size after Steve's recommend on another thread. Saves all the clicking I guess.
Not fitted the rebuilt carbs yet, thought I had better have a go at routing the wiring loom and making a few connections. Can be a bit fiddly to do with the carbs and airbox fitted. Also got the back brake finished.
[attachimg=1]
Had the back brake all assembled then couldn't get the brake arm back onto the splines. So had to strip the whole lot again. That resulted in two days of "toys out the pram" and garage door staying closed (sometimes it just pisses me off). ;D
Anyway the wiring routing went fairly well, just need a few clips and a new rubber for the indicator relay. I'm never that certain when it comes to bike wiring so making the connections took a bit of time. Better to be careful now I reckon than having to search for fuse blowers later.
[attachimg=2]
The back mudguard was a completely different problem. As my original was so rusty it was close to holes, I decided to get one of the pattern replacements that are for sale everywhere. Got it from M&P eventually (not there fault they are probably the same everywhere), wish I had found a good used one and got it re-chromed.
The front top bolts lined up okay, but when I tried the side bolts the left one was miles out. After some deliberation I extended the slots with the Dremmel. The bolts went in but the mudguard was off centre to the wheel. More Dremmel with the left side extended forwards and the right side backwards. That got it lined up and all tight. Will do the inside of the mudguard and ground out holes with a good coat of cold galvanise before it's finally fitted.
Then for the back light. O dear!! >:(
[attachimg=3]
The bolt holes on this thing are a joke. After careful measuring the lines indicate where the problem is. Check out how badly out of line the light is to the mudguard.
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Not sure what to do with this now. Do I try for a refund from M&P and look for a good secondhand one, or plough on with a fix. Really the holes need welding up and re-drilling in the correct place but that will destroy the chrome. Not sure what to do with this at the moment so am putting it on the back burner whilst I have a think. Ralph will be up there wetting himself now, "Bloody Pattern Parts" etc. ;D Wouldn't mind but this is the third attempt from three different suppliers, all have been crap.
On a more positive note, I have managed to find a local painter that comes highly recommended. He's got my parts at the moment and has given me a price of £380 for Candy Bacchus Olive but I have to supply the decals. Not a bad price, just hope his work is top notch. Will report back when its finished, probably about a month or so.
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Well, I have managed to sort out the back mudguard problem. Easy really, just throw another load of money at it. ;D
Got a genuine used mudguard off eBay. It's a lot less rusty than the one off my bike so should re-chrome okay.
Gave it a test fit before sending it off, but as it's genuine there wasn't really going to be a problem.
[attachimg=1]
O look. Fits nice and straight at the first attempt.
Who the hell makes those rubbish pattern parts anyway. And who owns those feet.
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Bike looks good Roy.
I sent my rear mud guard off with the rest of the chrome bits.
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Cheers Tim.
Only bought the reproduction back mudguard as the one on mine was completely rotten. To be fair it was only £75 from M&P and they have given me £30 back for the inconvenience. So its only stood me at £45 and may be of use to somebody at that price.
Got a good (surface rust only) genuine replacement off eBay for £25 and that's now at the chromers. Should have done that in the first place.
Jobs stopped now for a couple of weeks as its IOM Classic TT time again. Hopefully the painting and chroming will be ready when I get back.
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Been a while since the last update.
Just collected my paintwork from Thornton Paints. Am really pleased with it. Not sure if it's actual Candy or a mimic with metallic paint ( forgot to ask him), but either way its a spot on match with the scrap part I gave him.
He has done the tank, 2 side panels, 2 fork shrouds, 2 headlamp ears for £380 plus the cost of the decals. The whole lot was stripped back to bare metal to ensure the correct quality.
Here's a few pictures. Not the best as its twilight and they don't really do justice to the depth and finish of the paint.
This is the mess I sent to him :(
[attachimg=4]
This is what he sent me back 8)
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Will post some better pictures when I get a chance. Not the best close up.
[attachimg=5]
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Looking good Roy, your be finished soon.
Should get my chrome back early next week.
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Lovely.....can you post the phone number/ E Mail address/ Website of Thornton paints please?........and where do you get your chroming done......and do they Zinc/ Galvanise parts.
Ta mucho.......
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They look brilliant Roy. That's the colour mine is supposed to be. May have to get there number off you when it comes to paint time. Where did you get graphics?
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No problem will post Thornton Paints details tomorrow. He's that close to me I didn't need his number so will get it when I pass tomorrow.
Had my chroming done at R&S Electroplaters in Manchester, Mark Bray-Cotton is a forum member. The chroming was good, but the second batch was chroming and BZP (clearly labelled) but it all came back chromed. Not really bothered as it looks better anyway.
The decals came from AFE Graphics in the states, they came as a full kit with all the warning labels etc. £58 including postage and I got lucky with the import duty, they must have missed it. ;D
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Lovely.....can you post the phone number/ E Mail address/ Website of Thornton paints please?........and where do you get your chroming done......and do they Zinc/ Galvanise parts.
Ta mucho.......
The details your asked for are:
Thornton Paints. Guys name is Alex, 01253-851040, www.thorntonpaints.co.uk, thorntonpaints@hotmail.com
R&S Electroplaters. Guys name is Mark, 01616834908, www.rschrome.co.uk, sales@rschrome.co.uk
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Made a start getting the front end together so I can get it back on its wheels as I need to move it around (very limited space in the garage, or is that too many bikes).
I was hoping I was over the pattern parts disaster that was the back mudguard (should be back from the chromers any day now). Well I was wrong, the front mudguard was nearly as bad. The mudguard itself is fairly good but the stays are a good 10mm too long, this means force to get the bolts in. Had to use a piece of aluminium bar levered against the tyre to get them in. Although now its on it looks pretty good, it's not acceptable at the price they charge for these parts. Big lesson learned, from now on I will look for better OEM parts and get them re-chromed (should have listened to Bitsa).
Anyway, enough moaning here's the pictures.
Really pleased with the way the forks came out. The alloy polished up well, and Mark did a good job with the re-chroming. Didn't bother sending the tubes out to Phillpots as the working area was spot on, so I just cleaned up the rust behind the yoke area.
[attachimg=1]
It was a fairly straight forward job getting the painted parts fitted and the forks into the yokes. I already filled the forks with 125ml of 10 grade suspension fluid whilst the forks were on the bench. That iconic horn cleaned up really well. Unfortunately the bracket was supposed to be redone in BZP but a mix up at the chromers saw the whole batch I sent being chromed. I'm leaving it though as it looks good (it will probably upset the rivet counters though).
[attachimg=2]
Finally got the bike stands back on and lifted it of it's assembly box (it's got a bit heavier since I put the frame on the box).
[attachimg=3]
Got the wheel mounted and temporarily fitted the handlebars. Started tightening everything up from the bottom so I can get the correct alignment of the front wheel and handlebars. The top yoke and headlamp ears are coming off again soon due to a monumentally stupid error on my part, more on that later.
[attachimg=4]
Now here's a big tip. Don't say to yourself "I've put the front wheel on and it's not coming off again" ::) That's what I did and what a struggle it was to get the mudguard and brake on. Don't know why I do these things. Put the mudguard on first then the brakes then the wheel, that way you wont get stressed out and say a lot of things the neighbours shouldn't really be hearing. :D But I did prove that it is possible to fit the mudguard with the wheel in place.
[attachimg=5]
Any comments on the front mudguard, looks a little bit too far off the wheel. Not sure, but it's staying on now whatever (see I'm doing it again).
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I'm back into waiting for parts yet again, so had a go at assembling some other bits and pieces.
Got the new seat out of it's box to have a go at the Honda logo. I was dreading getting this out as it's a pattern part, and we all know how that story goes. Gave it a dry fit before starting the logo in case it was heading back to silvers, but thankfully it fitted really well. 8)
Got a logo template from Piki (what a really nice chap, he had a couple of goes at it to get it spot on). The logo went on well and I carefully masked off everything else. Following a recommend on here I decided to use silver Rustoleum upholstery paint. This paint I would not recommend as its as thin as water. Due to the seat being a grained PVC it gets behind the template and leaves a load of "star crazing" that needs to be cleaned off with a scalpel afterwards.
[attachimg=1]
I ending up spending over an hour carefully scraping back the overpaint to try to get a good edge. It's not too bad but am going to have another go when my patience reservoir has re-filled. Next time I'm going to find a much thicker paint (so it doesn't run into the grain as badly) and probably carefully brush paint it though the stencil.
[attachimg=2]
Will report back later when some more parts have arrived, and I've got round the disaster with the headlamp ears.
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Was that a brushed or sprayed paint you used for the logo Roy?
I used the Rustoleum spray (from Homebase) and it was fine for me. Slight bleeding but nothing like yours appears.
Trick seems to be to make sure the stencil is well stuck down to the seat, using a fingernail or similar, and
apply the spray paint in thin coats so it dries quickly and doesn't bleed into the grain.
My template wasn't from Piki but suspect they are all much the same type, seat fabric is grained much like yours.
Hope you manage to clean up the excess OK
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Cheers Chris.
Yes it was a spray. I haven't done this before as Honda have only just finished having there hissy fit and they used to come ready done. But like all thing it's a learning curve and wont happen again.
The template from Piki was actually very sticky and pushed into the grain really well. The problem was that the Rustuleum spray was very very thin and penetrating. A thicker brush paint version would probably be a better option. It's cleaning up okay though, will have another little go with it later today. All will be right in the end.
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Try spraying some clear varnish on the edges of the mask, this should seal the edges and stop seepage.
Cheers
Dennis
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Try spraying some clear varnish on the edges of the mask, this should seal the edges and stop seepage.
Cheers
Dennis
Now that's a top tip. Thanks Dennis.
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Dennis, can you clarify what you mean please - it's Sunday morning and my brain is not fully working yet.
Do you spray the mask before applying or when it is in place, before applying the fabric paint?
If the latter is there a risk of the paint not adhering to or reacting with the varnish?
The seat I did was my first so I am still on the learning curve too.
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It's what we do with masks used on scale models, you place the mask on the object, then seal the edges of the mask so that paint cannot seep through, you do this with clear varnish, if the varnish seeps through it will be clear which is better than silver or white paint. It does not take a lot of varnish, it's only needed on the edges and yes test out the clear varnish with the paint to make sure it's compatible.
Cheers
Dennis
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Back mudguard has returned from Mark at R&S Electroplating, done a very nice job on it. This was a £25 eBay item that had a fair bit of rust on it. Just to make sure the rust was gone I had it bead blasted all over. It didn't touch the good chrome but removed all the rust especially from underneath where it doesn't get polished.
I gave front and back mudguards a liberal spray with Cold Galvanise before fitting to help protect them from corrosion. Don't know if it will work but it cant do any harm.
[attachimg=1]
Got the back mudguard fitted. As it was an original Honda piece it went straight on without hassle. the chrome looks really good.
[attachimg=2]
Just got to do a bit of electrical soldering and fit the back light. Now the tyre pressure labels are on, looks like it just came out of the factory.
[attachimg=3]
Bit of soldering to finish the new rear loom and on with the light. That's the back end completely finished.
[attachimg=4]
Those USA back lights always look huge to me. But it is the correct one, may look smaller when the seat is on.
Will post some more pictures when the bits arrive. Thanks for tuning in.
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Spray some underseal on it as it sets 'rubbery' and helps the stones to bounce off rather than 'shotblast' the paint off.....IMHO.
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Cheers for that Alan. Unfortunately I have used underseal before many years ago. After a while it tends to loose its adhesion to the metal and draws in water underneath which becomes trapped and rots your mudguard. With the Cold Galvanise it will stand scratches and dings and still protect. Hopefully (if it really does what it says on the tin).
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Bike looks very good so far Roy.
I'm still waiting for stuff to come back from the chromers, painter has all the tins etc.
It's all at a stand still at the moment.
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Thanks Tim. Your chromers are taking a while aren't they. It seems like weeks since you sent it out.
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I've never found a chromer that's good and quick. If you know of one let me know.
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I've never found a chromer that's good and quick. If you know of one let me know.
Good point Mike. Come to think of it, No I don't know one either.
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Good ones are always busy.....that's cos they are good.
I have a brilliant Triumph T120 Restoration Guide which notes that as parts are taken off the bike during a rebuild......they are separated into lots.....one to go for re-chroming, one to go for zinc plating etc etc so as you are getting on with the rest of the strip (engine, carbs etc) the long lead items are being worked on and by the time you need them they have been returned all bright and shiny.
Good philosophy methinks.
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Worked really well for me this time, until you find all those little bits that should have gone with the chroming still in the boxes. ::) ::)
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Hey mates, REMEMBER FINE LAYERS!!!!!!!!!, if anybody have any problem with the Stencil, let me know, and I will send other free!!!(Only for members of this site ;) ;D)
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Finally got over the disaster that was the headlamp ears. The originals that came with the bike turned out to be from a 350 twin, although I didn't discover this until they were painted. I had also bought a NOS headlamp shell from Germany that was also wrong, think it may be CB450 so no headlamp shell either.
[attachimg=1]
Had a bit of trouble sourcing NOS headlamp ears but managed to find one in the USA and another was found by Chris. Strangely, both are red ones and neither of them had been lacquered. They could possibly be a batch of seconds that never made the production line, and that's why they are available today? Anyway, got them off to the painters along with a used plastic headlamp shell.
[attachimg=2]
Now any eagle eyed viewer will spot the latest mistake. Due to a mix up at the painters the headlamp shell should be black and was painted green. As he didn't charge me for redoing them I am going to repaint it black myself.
Whilst that gets done I am going to tackle fitting the exhaust. Hopefully that will go without a hitch (touch wood). More soon.
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Why not leave it green it looks great
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I could leave it green Bryan, but that would stir the wrath of the rivet counters. So shiny black it's going to be.
Whilst I sort out the headlamp shell, I thought I would have a go at the exhausts. If you remember from earlier in this sorry tale, due to the very poor standard of the original Sankei exhausts the system I ended up with is a 4 into 4 made by MIVV in Italy (discontinued 5 years ago). The kit included 4 header pipes, 4 silencers, 4 tube clamps, and a rubber stopper for the centre stand. All as in the picture.
[attachimg=1]
According to the instructions the silencers are mounted first on the rear footrest mounts, then the header pipes slide into the silencer and are bolted up. Sounds really simple, unfortunately as is the case with pattern parts its never that easy. Firstly the header pipes are not identified so its anyones guess which pipe goes to which cylinder. That took a lot of experimenting to sort out. When I offered up the first header pipe this is what I found.
[attachimg=2]
Yes, your seeing that right. A system made for the CB350F and costing £700 you have to finish off yourself. All four pipes are way too long and needed cutting down to suit.
Two of the pipes have a short bend on the silencer end that had to be cut off (no idea why that bend was there) almost like they were made for another bike and just thrown into the the kit as they are near enough? All fairly poor really, pattern parts yet again. This is what had to be cut off across the 4 pipes (note the bends that were cut off). Another thing I noticed is whilst cutting the pipes (hacksaw) the chrome was flaking. They have been chromed directly onto the steel. Guess they will be coming off again at some point to be re-chromed.
[attachimg=3]
With lots of time and patience, and a whole lot of measuring and taking on and off, I finally got all four pipes on and looking okay.
[attachimg=4]
I then managed to find a fault on one of the silencers that I previously had missed. The black end cap on the lower left silencer is missing (never been fitted at the factory, so much for quality control).
Not sure how to get over this problem as its a pressed steel part that will be hard to replicate. Tried emailing MIVV who did reply quickly, but to say it had been discontinued for five years and they had disposed of all the remaining parts.
I'm thinking these were still available after 5 years as they were seconds? If that's the case they should really say so.
I have contacted the German supplier (named earlier in this thread) and they think I may have been supplied with CB500/550 headers by mistake. That would make sense. They are also searching the stores to try to find an end cap for the silencer as they used to keep them. So there's still hope for an easy fix. Looks like the header pipes are not made by MIVV (just the silencers), this could be correct as the quality of the silencers is way better than the headers (except for the end cap obviously).
[attachimg=5]
I will sort it out somehow, it needs a bit of thought so I will leave that for now. When I think back, I only decided to do a CB350F as exhausts were readily available. That came back and bit me I think ;D .
Next job is to finish the headlamp shell and get it fitted. Then on with the handlebars and on to the bit I dread, the bowl of spaghetti that is the wiring in the headlight.
I am up to date now. More to follow.
PS. Just discovered that the centre stand completely misses the rubber stop and slams into the silencer. No damage done, but another unnecessary job to find a way around.
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I can hear Bitsa laughing agaim about pattern parts! Sorry it's causing you so much aggro, you haven't had much luck with exhausts. The issue with the poor chrome plating is one of the many reasons I would not go near anything italian made, it's all so shoddy and badly made/finished (remember 70's fiats and lancias for rust!) The bend on the silencer ends were probably part of the bending mandrel operation at the factory, and should have been cut off before chroming. Terrible shame as you have done a great job on the rest of the bike, but don't get despondent, you'll find a way to sort it!
Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk
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Thanks Hairy for the kind words.
Will sort it out somehow, just another challenge. By the time it hits the road nobody will be able to spot it.
Am thinking I may mask it off carefully and paint the inner of the silencer with the same High Temperature Matt black and put some same size pop rivets in. Don't think anybody will notice it even if prompted.
But will look first for a metal dish the correct diameter that I can drill out to look correct.
Pain in the arse really but the Sankai's were way worse.
Cheers.
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Sterling work Roy........the photos don't do this machine justice but as I saw it in the flesh a few weeks ago, I have to say that it is real credit to your skills and talent, and I would be proud to own it. I can't say fairer than that. I was also impressed with both your CB750F's, but the CB350F is just stunning.
Lets hope your main obstacles are now over and the remainder of the build goes smoothly.
Could you advise which Simoniz paint you used on the crankcases as that's how I want my CB750K4's to look.
Looking forward to the next batch of photees.
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Hi Roy,
If you know of a good jobbing turner, it would not be too much hassle to make one by spinning. I made a similarly shaped but smaller cover for the top steering bearing on my Model 50 Norton. It's described on my web site under that model, part 8 I think. Mine was stainless so took a bit more 'persuading' over the corner than mild steel would. Let me know how you get on.
Ian
Btw, your restoration of your 350 is stunning - I thought mine was good but looks like an oily rag job compared with yours. They really are lovely little bikes and although I have a couple of 400/4's, the 350/4 is still my favourite.
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I have finally managed to get over the problems with the exhaust fitting. That ones now all buttoned up.
Had a problem with the centre stand stop being so far off that the lever on the centre stand hit hard against the bottom silencer. A home made bespoke part has sorted that one out.
[attachimg=1]
Then the German supplier came through with a used end cap for the silencer that I bead blasted and painted with black engine enamel. That was then riveted in place with some large pop rivets. Looks pretty good really.
[attachimg=2]
The next job is to get on with the front end and get the wiring in the headlamp done.
Cheers.
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Today's job is the front end and handlebars. Don't know if it will come back and bite me again, but I am using pattern switchgear to replace the seriously damaged stuff that came with the bike.
It took a while to get the cables threaded through the handlebars, bit fiddly but got there in the end. For pattern parts they appear to fit well.
[attachimg=1]
I carefully cleaned the paint out of the handlebar mounts so they grip better on the bars.
[attachimg=2]
Strange to get the handlebars on finally, it suddenly starts to look like a bike again. There's not really much you can write about that so I shall just keep the thread up to date in pictures. I'm sure you wont miss having to read all the waffle anyway.
As usual with the indicators, I took the time to make up hard wired earth links for each one. It usually pays off with fewer electrical gremlins later on.
[attachimg=3]
Got the clocks fitted whilst there was still some good access, saves fiddling to get the mounting nuts on. The headlight is now black as Honda intended thus avoiding the comments from the purists. Doesn't look bad for one of my paint jobs (I don't have enough patience to be a painter, I want it done now so always put too much paint on and it runs).
[attachimg=4]
Just a quick photo from the side of how things are looking so far. I'm generally quite pleased with it, although I'm actually a little further along the road than the pictures show (still trying to catch up with the thread in a chronological order). As a few of you will already know, the storm clouds are gathering above the garage and it all comes to a sudden stop.
[attachimg=5]
Nice to leave on a cliffhanger, just like Dr Who. More soon!
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The bikes getting close to finished now, but the Gremlins have crept in and caused some problems. I ended up with a list of issues to be resolved that was growing faster than I was fixing them. The list is here:
1. Ran the engine on the starter and found a large oil leak from the crankshaft seal on the timing end.
2. Centre stand hitting the exhaust rather than the stop (pattern parts again).
3. Missing end plate on one of the silencers.
4. Rear axle fouling the bottom silencer when on the centre stand (pattern parts again).
5. Huge drag on the clutch.
6. Throttle cable 'A' wont stay in the quadrant.
7. Throttle cable 'A' too long and wont adjust up enough (pattern parts again).
8. Headlamp shell cracked when the rim was tightened up.
9. Clutch cable fouling the threads on pattern control on handlebars (pattern parts again).
[attach=1]
The headlamp crack was due to an area of damage that I repaired before painting. There was a chunk out of the front that I repaired with Araldite and sanded back. I thought I had got away with it but the crack appeared straight away. I have managed to source a NOS item from Italy that strangely is a pressed steel item instead of moulded plastic. Its in a sealed Honda bag with the correct number, guess they had a problem with the cracking and changed it.
The clutch issues turned out to be an historical error made by the previous owner. I covered that on another thread so wont bore you with the details again. It was in this thread: http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,9205.0.html (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,9205.0.html)
The problem with the oil leak (now sorted) was a home grown thing due to stupidity on my part. I tried but I couldn't think of anything or anybody else to blame for that one. ;D I also covered that on another thread: http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,9150.0.html (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,9150.0.html)
All the exhaust issues are now resolved, thanks should go to the suppliers in Germany who were very helpful.
The problems with the throttle cables are this afternoons project. If I can get that sorted, the next big hurdle is engine start. I am planning on making a video of this momentous event so everyone can see me go up in a cloud of smoke and shrapnel. Will be selling tickets for the big event later on, and DVD's can be pre ordered. ;D ::) ;)
Bye for now.
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Got the front end completely finished this morning.
Thought I had better get some brakes before I start the engine just in case it takes off. ::)
Got some really nice braided hoses in a bespoke length from Honda4NL in the Netherlands. A wee bit pricey but well worth the cost as they improve the braking no end. Another one that will probably upset the purists, but when that car pulls out I would rather stop than know (when I'm sailing over the bonnet) that my brakes are authentic. ;D
[attach=1]
The rest of the braking system has been overhauled. The caliper was rebuilt with all new seals and a new piston. The swing arm mount was freed off and polished and put back together with a nice dollop of CV joint grease. There's a replacement master cylinder at the handlebars (pattern I know), but they are very good quality so should be okay. The pads are the organic flavour as I am told they have better feel and they are grippier. All in all it works extremely well:
[attach=2]
Sorry if I'm boring anybody, just want to get the thread up to date and complete.
Engine start day is fast approaching. Getting a bit nervous now. ::)
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We're not bored, keep it coming.
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Nothing boring here Roy. It's been a real pleasure reading about your progress with this bike. Thanks for sharing - it's what makes this forum such a good place to be / participate. I personally prefer stock parts but I think your brake hose upgrade is a subtle and clever upgrade that I'd be happy to use on one of my bikes. Keep it coming...J
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Front end is looking nice there Roy. Shame about your headlight bowl :(
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+1 ..love to see resto details .. would never get bored with them .
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+1 ..love to see resto details .. would never get bored with them .
+ 1 as well
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Spent Sunday afternoon attempting to sort the throttle cable problems. Along the way I have found a problem with the carb re-assembly.
I guess this should be problem 10 on the list then.
This ones home grown, but not surprising as carbs are my weak point. Was hoping I had it right first time on this one. Anybody that followed my 750F2 build will know that the carbs on that were on and off so often I could do it in my sleep.
Anyway, for some strange reason the carbs are not closing correctly. Meaning that the cable quadrant is not rotating back fully. Not sure what it is, so rebuild number 2 is about to start. Whilst I'm doing it I am going to change the worn quadrant for a spare I have. That should correct the problem of the cable not being retained.
[attachimg=1]
You can just see in the picture that the throttle stop screw is right out and there is still an gap of about 10mm. This has the effect of making cable 'A' appear too long, and cable 'B' appear too short. The over-return stop is also miles off the quadrant. Not doubt when I get back in there it will become obvious whats wrong.
Second problem with the carbs. Although they were carefully cleaned and rebuilt with all new parts, 3 out of the 4 carbs are deluging petrol out of the overflows.
Engine start is now put back again. Never mind, nearly through the extra challenges now. I would rather have everything done correctly before I attempt to start it.
Cheers all.
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You havent got the adjusters too tight have you ? got the tee shirt for that one
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Yep agree with you Bryan. It's probably a setting issue but got to strip them again as the quadrant, where the cable bobbin locates, is so worn that it wont hold the cable in. Didn't notice it when I was doing the carbs or I wouldn't have bothered getting it re-plated. Not really the sort of thing I was looking for. Never mind I will get there in the end. Cheers.
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Hi all. Been a while since the last update. Have had to remove and rebuild the carbs a second time. Also had to change the cable quadrant as it was worn out. Well that's all done now and the carbs are back on the bike with the cables fitting perfectly, and the petrol staying where it should be. BryanJ was right it was to do with the setting up.
Sorted a few last remaining bits and finally its time for engine start.
Just by chance Alan (Mctid) was calling round with his 750K4 engine so decided to wait until he got here before the big event. Somebody to man the fire extinguisher. ;D Anyway now Alan the 'glamorous assistant' has arrived its time for the main event. I would like to say I wasn't nervous but that would be a lie.
So here it is, give you all a good laugh if nothing else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawweCajv3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nawweCajv3Q)
I should say looking at the video that I need to loose some weight. Fat t**t. ;D
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Well done sir .
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That went real well, and what a peach of a tickover when it settled down
pete
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Well done Roy, great result, even better to "Be there" with you at the crucial moment, thanks for sharing the video, wish you many fun and hassle free miles, roll on spring!
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As you can see, it started that fast it took me by surprise.
I was expecting to have to crank it for a while (although I did crank it with the cutout switch off to prime it a bit). Still got to strobe the timing and check the advancer, then balance the carbs. Was very surprised it settled to a very steady 1000rpm tickover without any adjustment whatsoever. I don't think its going to require very much tweeking to get it spot on. Think I may have got the carb rebuild correct second time around.
It's a bit quieter than I was expecting. It sounds on the video like its noisy but that's the camera's mike inside a concrete garage. There is absolutely no mechanical noise from the engine at all. That was the biggest surprise after doing two 750's that rattle like a bag of spanners.
Tank and seat next, them polish off all the millions of oily hand marks. Will post some pictures of the finished thing soon.
Cheers all.
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Spot on resto Roy you should be a very proud man :)
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Superb restoration Roy........it was a privilege to be there - if only to give moral support.
The Video doesn't really do it justice, but I can vouch for the great skill and attention which this beautiful machine has had lavished upon it. It's a long time since I heard a CB350F up close and it certainly sounded as smooth as it should be.....almost like a sewing machine - I mean that as a complement, not as a derisory remark.
I couldn't believe how well it ran - for the first time and how it settled into a nice steady tickover straight away.....I was expecting clouds of exhaust fumes, oil and petrol dripping everywhere and lots of cursing!
It's a real pleasure to see a restoration carried out so well........there are many 'Specialists' out there asking top dollar for cobbled together bikes which are not a patch on your's (including your two restored CB750F's) and you should be extremely proud of your achievement.
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That was impressive, for a first start up it was mind boggling, I had to drag mine into life, well done
Cheers
Dennis
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I'm pleased it all went to plan and started without any aggro. It's a good omen.
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Did the tune-up work on the 350F this afternoon.
Checked the timing with a strobe lamp and it required no adjustments at all. With the engine warmed the tickover was at a steady 1100rpm. Vac gauges on and the picture tells the story. Just a very minor increase required on cylinder 1. Guess the static settings I did were pretty good.
[attach=1]
Had a ridiculous last minute problem that has caused some minor damage to the plastic bulb holder on the 'idiot light' console. I got four new bulbs from DSS that fitted perfectly. They should be 3W at 12 V, the ones they sent me (that stupidly I didn't check) were 3W at 6V. They got so hot they melted the bulb holder. So changed the bulbs for 12V items and its good for now. Got new parts on the way, not too bothered as the harness was a bit tatty anyway. Caused a lot of smoke though. I should have guessed something was wrong as the indicators flashed too fast, that's right now.
It should be finished tomorrow with a bit of luck.
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The bike is finished. Nothing more to say, so just some winter wet day pictures.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Five more on the next post.
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Five more pictures.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Thanks for following the thread. Can hardly believe its been viewed nearly 6000 times.
Will follow up with MOT and DVLA registration feedback after Christmas.
And a special 'thank you' to all the people that helped this build along the way, be it services, parts, or simply help and advice.
Thanks for viewing, and I hope you all have a very Happy Christmas and Santa brings you all the SOHC parts your hearts desire.
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Absolutely gorgeous
Cheers
Dennis
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Well done Roy, a stunning piece of work there. You should be very proud.
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Superb Roy ! You should be very proud !
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Pick the best shot(s) and put it (them) in the Gallery Roy.
Steve
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Top job Roy , what a gem of a bike
pete
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WOW great build ;)
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Looking great. Good work. :D
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Looks awesome
Noelia
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That looks really lovely Roy, it's a credit to you and keeps another old girl on the road
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Bike looks fantastic Roy, well done.
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very pretty bikes the 350!
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Hi all.
The saga isn't quite finished after all. The bike was all setup and ready for testing on the road prior to taking for its MOT, even had the bike in the drive and my helmet on the wall. I was warming it up when I noticed smoke from cylinder 4 exhaust. On checking pot 4 was hardly running, so it was a 3 1/3 cylinder Honda.
Back in the garage I checked for a good spark and No.4 was very weak compared to the others. Unfortunately I couldn't swap 1 & 4 as the leads wouldn't reach, so I stripped off the coil to have a look. On inspection the HT lead to 4 was very loose in the coil body. The smoking gun!
Decided, after a false start with DSS pattern coils, that I would go with a full Boyer Bransden electronic kit with the micro coils. This would also replace the mechanical advancer that was previously freed off after being rusted solid.
When the kit arrived it was clear that the fitting of it was a bit DIY, with no way of mounting the coils and instructions to cable tie the control box to the frame. Sorry that's not going to happen on this bike, a slightly more elegant solution will be required.
This is the story in pictures:
These are the micro coils. They look to me to be the same as fitted to a standard Hinckley Triumph?
[attach=1]
My new DSS supplied plug caps are perfect for the job.
[attach=2]
As I say a bit DIY, you even have to solder your own HT lead fitting on.
[attach=3]
I reversed the original coil mounting brackets and drilled out the threads. If I want to go back to standard I can use a longer bolt with a nut. I made up some aluminium pieces and bolted them in. I then mounted the coils to one side, and the control box to the other.
[attach=4]
Had to make loads of patch leads as the bullet connectors were not really Honda size and all were loose. Got there in the end though.
[attach=5]
The result was a really fat bright spark on all four cylinders. Strobed the timing at 4500rpm as per instructions, which is a bit unnerving, but all went well.
Guess what, still a 3 1/3 cylinder Honda. The real culprit was a blocked idle jet in carb 4, the whole exercise was just chasing a red herring ;D . Goes to show, even when you are sure the problem has been found it's still worth double checking everything. "O well" at least the bikes now done to the best spec possible, and the dodgy HT lead has gone. I'm sure that would have come back to bite me at some point in the future.
Hopefully now I can road test it and get it MOT'd and registered ready for spring.
Cheers all.
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Glad you got to the root of the problem in the end Roy, you must be well chuffed with the end product. Not so impressed with the way you had to make patch leads though, every additional joint in the wiring is a potential problem for the future ( loose connections/corrosion causing resistance etc.)
Sent from my X5 using Tapatalk
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Just a couple of patch leads really (lazy writing) the rest I cut off and replaced. Crimped and soldered obviously.
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Tiss a proud day to be sure.
The CB350F just sailed through its first MOT.
Only thing he could find wrong with it was the retaining spring on the back brake pull rod was missing (turns out it was sat in the box of left over bits). Still, they have to find something. On the 750 I had forgotten to put the split pin in the back axle nut.
Like an inspection that's thorough when its been down to every last washer, peace of mind that its all good. It ran absolutely superb on the way to the test.
Now for the tedious bit, getting it insured then registered.
Should be on the road for spring.
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Amazing work,my congrats!
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Well done Roy. FYI you can now register without insurance and it's a pretty quick process assuming you have the title or a dating certificate..well done, lovely job.
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Well done Roy. FYI you can now register without insurance and it's a pretty quick process assuming you have the title or a dating certificate..well done, lovely job.
Now that is interesting James. How do you go about doing that, I have the USA Ohio registration document. I was just filling in the V55/5 and I assume I can leave blank anything that says Certificate of Conformity. Cheers.
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Roy if you pm me you email I'll send you a pdf explaining it, and my contact details to discuss
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PM sent. Thanks.
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A lovely job you done there. Congratulations. ;D
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The application to DVLA for a V5 has now been sent.
DVLA signed for it on Saturday 5th March, so lets see how long it takes them to sort it out. Should be straight forward as I had the USA title document. Only minor issue is the title says 1974 and its really a 1972 bike, but I didn't think it was worth the hassle changing it as its tax exempt anyway.
James. Sorry I didn't ring you about the no insurance registration thing. I decided to insure it as I had a free spot on the multi bike policy. Thanks anyway.
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Thats one beautiful bike Roy! I don't have a lot of knowledge of 350 - my knowledge of the 70's bikes come from my biking in 70's and as not being imported to UK can't remember much about them. What 4 into 4 exhausts are available and at what cost - quite fancy the 350 being a future resto after CR project.
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The registration with DVLA took 9 days to complete (not too shabby). It's now registered 1974 on an M plate. Should have been on a 1972 K plate but I didn't feel the need to go the extra mile. The V5 arrived the day after the notification letter with it correctly classed a Historic. Well done DVLA, nice one.
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Do the DVLA send you back the USA title document.
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No, they keep it.
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Just read this whole posting Roy, and that's a fabulous job you have done there, well done.
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Truly stunning level of attention to detail. I love this bike. Jolly well done Roy.
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Hmm!, I thought it would turn out a lot nicer than that Roy.
Only kidding, it's brilliant, well done, another bit of motorcycling history saved.
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Thanks for all the kind words guys. Unfortunately the bike is off the road again with carb troubles, will post again when I have it resolved. Should be within the next three weeks. Cheers.
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It is a pattern seat. The one that came with the bike had a rotted out base. Am on the lookout for a decent used one, or a good repairable base that I can get re-covered.