Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: ozzybud on January 14, 2024, 10:06:05 PM
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Hi all i am going to start this thread documenting my recently acquired CB400F Restoration project.
I picked up this bike a couple months ago locally in Seattle for a Very good price. It has just over 20K miles on the clock. It had lots of corrosion and wear that you would expect from a 49 year old bike.
I was able to ride it over the last couple months to make sure it runs good and does not smoke. great compression and pulls very strong. Didn't know it was a six speed until my second ride. also nothing sounds like these small SOHC 4's.
I have been collection new parts,pieces and fasteners from EBAY, CMS.NL and David Silver Spares. I love to restore back to Factory Original as possible
here are a couple pics before and in progress
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This was my first accomplishment last week. cleaned , restored and re-faced the gauges
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Well done
Looking forward to many more posts and pictures
Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk
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I started in on the front rim restoration this weekend. I have a new DID rim and Spokes from CMS.
I always start with the the rubber still on and clean up the disk by spinning the tire and using 220 grit on a sanding block until all the black marks and glazing is removed. I hold the axle up with 2 boards bolted to the bench sticking out about 18". I don't have a lathe to face them off so this is the next best method for me to make them look like new.
The Bearing were howling when i was cleaning up the Disk. The Spanner nut has 2peen marks that need to be drilled out ever so slightly , after drilling out the peen marks, I then heated the hub up with a heat gun. Nut came out with ease and both bearings tapped out with ease. I ordered new bearings and a seal. they should be here by tomorrow.
I use aircraft stripper to remove all the factory clear coat from the hub. the pictures i posted are post clear removal only. I will sand with 400/800/1500 before polishing.
I will sand and polish the hub tomorrow after i install the bearings,i'm hoping with using heat they will drop right in.
I will then clear coat the hub. i always use catalyzed automotive clear. just 1 coat so it will protect and not chip off.
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Nice work. Which clear coat do you use on your alloy parts ?... I use MIPA CA . DTM (Direct To Metal) 2k
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I will sand and polish the hub tomorrow after i install the bearings,i'm hoping with using heat they will drop right in.
As you will know the bearings are a press fit, I found putting the new bearing inside a small zip lock bag then into the freezer overnight that they would drift in quite easily.
A member here put me onto an inexepensive drift tool set that comes in handy for gearbox bearings as well. I'm afraid of heating up alluminium plus my hubs were powder coated so did not want to risk the finish.
.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Piece-Bearing-Driver-Metric/dp/B00G6KHULU/ref=sr_1_8?crid=UFKYELM2PSY8&keywords=alloy+bearing+removal+drift+set&qid=1705316495&sprefix=alloybearing+removal+drift+set%2Caps%2C70&sr=8-8
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Yes they are a press fit. But thermal expansion and contraction is your best friend when it comes to installation. Freezing the bearings and heating the structure will make everything a lot easier. .
Using a heat gun should not affect and finish you might have. Unless it spray can paint.
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That's a very nice starting point, it's all there for starters!
Nice work with the gauges as well 👍.
My rat bike project has about 45k on it and unfortunately everything inside the engine appears to be worn out although the wear may in some part be put down to the PO using a sand blaster on the complete engine prior to spraying it black. I'm sure some of the sand got into the engine.
Looking forward to the rebuild posts👍
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Nice work. Which clear coat do you use on your alloy parts ?... I use MIPA CA . DTM (Direct To Metal) 2k
This is the Clear I use. It is made by PPG but less than half the price. Sprays,Smells flows out just like the PPG 2K Clear. It seems a lot softer. polishes out nice but on dark colors it gets scuffy faster.Not sure the Manufacturer will Guarantee DTM use. I have used it for years on side covers without failure or yellowing. I have used it on Wood as well. Also I have sprayed it over any kind of poof can(including the Honda Silver Cloud color) and i have never experienced lifting.
I will use this clear coat when i paint the tank and side covers. The good stuff is so expensive and the clear will last a long time but the Hardener has a short shelf life after opening. so i will end up tossing out a couple hundred dollars.
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A little update on my progress. I got the front wheel re-laced and trued. Detailing the parts and pieces as I go. Using as many new Honda Fasteners and Parts as possible. Replaced the seals in the front forks and polished up. I have a really nice uncracked headlight bucket that i need to paint and then i will be complete with the front clip. I bought 2 NOS headlight rings for the CB360 a couple years ago. Nice to find out its the correct part for the CB400F as well.
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Why Honda thought it was a good idea to paint the upper but not the lower crankcase is beyond me, looks awful imo. Didn’t do it on the 750 or 500/550 models, not even sure they did it on the 350.
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I know it's not original on these Honda Models but I do like black engines always thought they would keep cool better in black.
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I know it's not original on these Honda Models but I do like black engines always thought they would keep cool better in black.
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Excellent job going on there. I agree with Ken though, why did Honda leave the lower crankcase bare, just crazy. I've decided to get my cases fully painted for practical reasons.
I wish I could travel back in time time Ted and meet up again with the guy who was busy with his sand gun blasting my mates 400 engine before painting it black. 'You'll damage the internal parts of the engine using a sand gun and not covering the ports' I said. I thought to myself how I would pity the poor sap who would buy that bike at a later date and suffer the carnage caused by the stray sand within. How I laughed when 42 years later I bought that very same bike and guess what was inside it :(. I dont think there is much left of the original innards, complete gearshafts, big ends, mains, valves, guides, chains, tensioner, pistons, rings, clutch, cush drive all binned so far. Mostly as a result of the engine being painted black! I've got say a big thank you to you though Ted for having the complete gearshafts and the NOS Honda piston kit :)
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I absolutely agree about the blasting. I only media blast parts/pieces that am 100% sure i can get all the media out.It would not be wise to blast the case halves there are too many nooks and crannies for media to hide.
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Why Honda thought it was a good idea to paint the upper but not the lower crankcase is beyond me, looks awful imo. Didn’t do it on the 750 or 500/550 models, not even sure they did it on the 350.
On some earlier Honda models Both case halves were left bare aluminum. This is true on my 1200 mile unrestored 1973 CL200. since the finish does not affect operation , Might be as the 70's progressed the customers were more concerned with aesthetics?
My passion is to restore bikes as close to the way the factory produced it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It might not look Pretty but it looks correct! And that is what i am aiming towards
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Got some minor bodywork and a nice shiny base/clear coat on the procured headlight bucket today.
Also started in on re-rimming the rear wheel.
This is very satisfying work for me, just to be able to do it and go from rusty and corroded to like shiny new. It looks like the bearings had been replace recently so we are going to roll with the existing ones.
Learning new things in retirement makes it all worth it!
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I got The top Bridge completed today and made sure all the electricals were back in working order.
I also Got the rear wheel re laced and trued. polished and clear coated the hub over the weekend.
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Coming on very nicely. 👍
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Nice shiny looking Instruments / Dash.
Respect that you are lacing your own wheels.👍👍👍
Did you replace the hub drive rubbers it's hard to tell from the picture, mine were rock hard.
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Thank you!
I am not replacing the Drive Rubbers . They seemed okay and still flexible.
Are They easily replaced?
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It depends on your definition of easy - I managed it okay. Might be in my rebuild thread.
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Thanks for all the encouragement..
I got the clutch basket rubbers installed tonight.
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2 Coats of duplicolor DE 1615 and 2 coats Of Omni MC161 clear
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Cases are looking good Ozzy, nice to see the progress.
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I made a lot of progress today. A lot of the parts and pieces i had detailed before i joined this forum. first thing i was going to do was get the clutch cover on. come to find out CMS sent me the wrong seal.. another is on order. next comes re painting the tank and side covers
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Looking great! Your using PPG omni clear coat? If so I’d like to pick your brain on setup as I’d like to start shooting “real” paint.
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Looking great! Your using PPG omni clear coat? If so I’d like to pick your brain on setup as I’d like to start shooting “real” paint.
Absolutely anytime.. I am retired and live near Seattle PST
I have a favorite little baby HVLP gun that I use for these small jobs. They are still $21.00 on Amazon. When done I only clean by running solvent though 3 times. They last a couple years. When they get plugged up. They get tossed.
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It's either much warmer in Washington or you have a heated workshop.
Great progress - if you finish it too quickly you will need to find another project.👍👍👍
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Sunny and 70⁰ F in the shop. The spray booth is the room behind the bikes
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That’s a very nice collection of bikes. Whats your favourite motorcycle brand ? 😁
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If only Henry had made motorbikes.
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I got the side covers painted this morning for comparison to the original paint on the tank.(Tank in the background is untouched original) I am using 1983 Toyota color code 8A1. It was said to be a perfect match to Honda Varnish Blue. Looks like it is spot on to me. now some minor bodywork on some dings in the tank and get some color on it. I have the decals ready to go as well.
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I got color on the Tank this morning.
Stripped tank to bare metal
Minimal bodywork(6 small dings)
2 Coats epoxy primer
3 Coats primer Surfacer
Block sanded smooth
2 Coats Base coat
3 Coats clear.
I will sand and polish the Clear coat tomorrow and get the Decals on.
I cant wait to fire her up!
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After sand and polish.
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Wow, looking amazing! Full paint booth eh? Are you in the business or is this serious hobby territory?!?
I do want to pick your brain on ”basic” paint setup. I work for a PPG paint distributor but I’m not in the paint side of the business. Would like to know what your preferred products are for the bikes I find there’s so many different options in the professional paint world it’s hard to know where to start!
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Wow, looking amazing! Full paint booth eh? Are you in the business or is this serious hobby territory?!?
I do want to pick your brain on ”basic” paint setup. I work for a PPG paint distributor but I’m not in the paint side of the business. Would like to know what your preferred products are for the bikes I find there’s so many different options in the professional paint world it’s hard to know where to start!
More of a serious hobby. I used to Paint cars as a hobby. Since i Retired 5 years ago i have been focusing on motorcycles. Taking on a complete car again might not happen. its a huge commitment. I average 250-300 hours on a auto paint job.I would tell people just to paint a door is.... 20 hours prep, 3 to paint,5 to sand and polish. so we have close to 30 hours into a door. So my Motto now in retirement is i do stuff for others for "fun and for free"
I would love to chat and exchange knowledge anytime
this Mach1 is my last paint job and the only car i have painted for myself.
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Nice paint job on the tank and side panels. That’s a sound looking car as well.
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Great looking Ford Mustang - takes me back to my days in the car trade in 1973-79 - my Boss ran a Ford Gran Torino white with the red side burner stripes.
He swaped for a Ford Fairlane Coupe as they were RHD for the UK built in Australia iirc. Then he switched back to LHD with a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. All great cars for pulling a twin wheeled horse box around the midlands.
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I got the tank painted a couple days ago. Polished and applied the decals today. Very happy with the results
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I got the tank painted a couple days ago. Polished and applied the decals today. Very happy with the results
Hello, with all due respect, why ruin a good paint job with those stickers?
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I got the tank painted a couple days ago. Polished and applied the decals today. Very happy with the results
Hello, with all due respect, why ruin a good paint job with those stickers?
Thank you for the compliment on my paint job!
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I'm here to learn what is wrong with the stickers?
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I got everything back together this morning, started right up! Went for a cold and Moist ride around the Block.
It was nice and quiet.. great to not have the clutch basket rattle anymore.
Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?
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'Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?'
Yes, it can.
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'Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?'
Yes, it can.
Thank you Julie
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Very nice work ozzybud.
When contemporary there were so many different bikes around that these didn't look out of the ordinary, but recently working with someone on their 400, having some time up very close to get something fiddly worked out, then it repeatedly shows what a brilliant piece of production engineering they were at that time, even more appreciated now.
Lovely bike to own and ride.
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'Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?'
Yes, it can.
The head & block can also be removed with the engine in the frame - you just have to ensure the camchain does not fall inside.
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Very nice work ozzybud.
When contemporary there were so many different bikes around that these didn't look out of the ordinary, but recently working with someone on their 400, having some time up very close to get something fiddly worked out, then it repeatedly shows what a brilliant piece of production engineering they were at that time, even more appreciated now.
Lovely bike to own and ride.
Thank you! Very well said.
When doing my restorations I am constantly amazed at the great engineering these bikes had. One simple feature that always comes to mind is the Passenger Footpegs. Using The Rubber Pad as the SPRING That keeps them in Place( Up or Down).. There are 100 more examples i am sure.
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'Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?'
Yes, it can.
The head & block can also be removed with the engine in the frame - you just have to ensure the camchain does not fall inside.
Thank you Ted!
The bike pulls strong , doesn't smoke and has good compression. so i wont be messing with the internals.
I Plan on pulling the cover to detail it, while i am at it clean up the carbs and clean up the fins on the head and Jug.
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:-*'Can the Valve cover be removed in frame on the CB400f?'
Yes, it can.
The head & block can also be removed with the engine in the frame - you just have to ensure the camchain does not fall inside.
Thank you Ted!
The bike pulls strong , doesn't smoke and has good compression. so i wont be messing with the internals.
I Plan on pulling the cover to detail it, while i am at it clean up the carbs and clean up the fins on the head and Jug.
Just make sure that you slacken off all the tappets/rockers before you loosen the cover screws.
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The P.O. of this bike said he put a re-jetting kit in. He said it included instructions to drill extra holes in the exhaust, Throw away the air cleaner cover and new Main Jets and likely messed with the factory needle Position. ( I cringed a lot when he told me of this) Why didn't Honda think of this?
I rode the bike prior to tearing it down just to do some test and tune and make sure the engine was solid.(about 100 miles) It ran great pulled hard and had equal compression in all 4 cylinders.The carbs did not require synchronization. Plugs 1,2,3 were dark tan #4 was light tan.
The only changes i have made to affect engine performance was install the repro exhaust.
Took it for a longer ride yesterday about 10 miles. ran great at first after 5 miles it started missing on some cylinders. when i got home # 1 was coldish.
removed the plugs 1,2,3 were black and sooty fouled or on there way to fouling.#4 was fine
I removed and cleaned the plugs. All of the idle mixture screws were out 4-5 turns? what? almost ready to fall out... lol Reset to 1.5 turns out.
Took it out today with similar results ran good a little longer.like 7 miles. removed the plugs and they looked similar.
I am assuming at this point that the P.O. removed the #75 jets for something larger. I ordered 4 OEM Used #75 jets and a gasket o-ring set.
I will Check out everything else when i get the carbs off.
Is there anything else I am missing? I spent a lot of time on my CB360 getting it to stop fouling plugs. It ended up being the Chinese needles were smaller diameter and a little bit shorter than oem.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
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Have you checked the condition of the coil leads?
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I suggest you have a read through some of the posts by fogrider. He put a sensor in the exhaust of a 4 into 1 and discovered all kinds of things about the fuelling. Several people have found aftermarket needle jets and seats have been the source of their problems.
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While the carbs are off, worthwhile to check the float heights,
Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk
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Your photo had me confused (I'm easily confused) - is it a close up of the old silencer end?
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While the carbs are off, worthwhile to check the float heights,
+1 on that suggestion. I don't know why but these carbs can be a bit of a nightmare especially if they have been messed with in the past. I have used Keyster kits in the past and it was those that caused all my issues together with sticking floats where the float pin had been very slightly bent by p/o's. Stick with the original brassware wherever possible even if you have to give it a good clean. And obviously whilst the carbs are off the bike give them a good going over and bench sync.
Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk
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The P.O. of this bike said he put a re-jetting kit in. He said it included instructions to drill extra holes in the exhaust, Throw away the air cleaner cover and new Main Jets and likely messed with the factory needle Position. ( I cringed a lot when he told me of this) Why didn't Honda think of this?
I rode the bike prior to tearing it down just to do some test and tune and make sure the engine was solid.(about 100 miles) It ran great pulled hard and had equal compression in all 4 cylinders.The carbs did not require synchronization. Plugs 1,2,3 were dark tan #4 was light tan.
The only changes i have made to affect engine performance was install the repro exhaust.
Took it for a longer ride yesterday about 10 miles. ran great at first after 5 miles it started missing on some cylinders. when i got home # 1 was coldish.
removed the plugs 1,2,3 were black and sooty fouled or on there way to fouling.#4 was fine
I removed and cleaned the plugs. All of the idle mixture screws were out 4-5 turns? what? almost ready to fall out... lol Reset to 1.5 turns out.
Took it out today with similar results ran good a little longer.like 7 miles. removed the plugs and they looked similar.
I am assuming at this point that the P.O. removed the #75 jets for something larger. I ordered 4 OEM Used #75 jets and a gasket o-ring set.
I will Check out everything else when i get the carbs off.
Is there anything else I am missing? I spent a lot of time on my CB360 getting it to stop fouling plugs. It ended up being the Chinese needles were smaller diameter and a little bit shorter than oem.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
As already given in other posting, these are extremely sensitive to such small changes, volumes, jetting accuracy of manufactured parts etc.
Not over sensitive, just really accurately specified and built, resulting in very good running when all is in order. Fine tooth comb is the way to go through them to understand just whats in there and getting back on track, not dismissing even the smallest observation.
A thread here http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,14609.0.html that looks at what the practical implications of jetting on them may be of interest.
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Your photo had me confused (I'm easily confused) - is it a close up of the old silencer end?
Yes it is the silencer end
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I chased my tail jetting my 750 for quite some time, what really frustrated me is a lot of carb tuning states to get the main jet sorted first and work your way down…
In my scenario to get it to run right wide open was too lean at idle and to get it to idle the main was super rich, I played with countless needle positions and float heights and in the end a bigger idle jet sorted things out.
I will second what others have said about non genuine brass, even in sport bikes I’ve jetted I try and avoid non genuine jets/needles.
Just another thought, where are you elevation wise? We have from sea level to fairly high base elevations in the pacific west coast to deal with, and small bikes have less hp to deal with jetting that’s off for your ‘base’ elevation. My snowmobile actually had a dial to lean out jetting as I climbed to keep it running optimally as I climbed. I’ve also had dirt bikes with ‘mild jetting’ changes from stock that are widely used elsewhere but would foul plugs at my elevation. Maybe your bike was ‘ok’ or slightly rich at sea level and you’re too high for it to run well now?
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I chased my tail jetting my 750 for quite some time, what really frustrated me is a lot of carb tuning states to get the main jet sorted first and work your way down…
In my scenario to get it to run right wide open was too lean at idle and to get it to idle the main was super rich, I played with countless needle positions and float heights and in the end a bigger idle jet sorted things out.
I will second what others have said about non genuine brass, even in sport bikes I’ve jetted I try and avoid non genuine jets/needles.
Just another thought, where are you elevation wise? We have from sea level to fairly high base elevations in the pacific west coast to deal with, and small bikes have less hp to deal with jetting that’s off for your ‘base’ elevation. My snowmobile actually had a dial to lean out jetting as I climbed to keep it running optimally as I climbed. I’ve also had dirt bikes with ‘mild jetting’ changes from stock that are widely used elsewhere but would foul plugs at my elevation. Maybe your bike was ‘ok’ or slightly rich at sea level and you’re too high for it to run well now?
I am at or near sea level
Seattle Washington
My plan is to get everything back to stock settings and jet. #s then go from there. I have 4 OEM #75 jets on the way
After what I went through on my CB360 I am leary of using anything other Than OEM especially the needles.
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I chased my tail jetting my 750 for quite some time, what really frustrated me is a lot of carb tuning states to get the main jet sorted first and work your way down…
In my scenario to get it to run right wide open was too lean at idle and to get it to idle the main was super rich, I played with countless needle positions and float heights and in the end a bigger idle jet sorted things out.
I will second what others have said about non genuine brass, even in sport bikes I’ve jetted I try and avoid non genuine jets/needles.
Just another thought, where are you elevation wise? We have from sea level to fairly high base elevations in the pacific west coast to deal with, and small bikes have less hp to deal with jetting that’s off for your ‘base’ elevation. My snowmobile actually had a dial to lean out jetting as I climbed to keep it running optimally as I climbed. I’ve also had dirt bikes with ‘mild jetting’ changes from stock that are widely used elsewhere but would foul plugs at my elevation. Maybe your bike was ‘ok’ or slightly rich at sea level and you’re too high for it to run well now?
I am at or near sea level
Seattle Washington
My plan is to get everything back to rather stock settings and jet. #s then go from there. I have 4 OEM #75 jets on the way
Well then it’s not elevation related unless you went straight up snoqualmie pass on your test loop! It’s crazy how sensitive some bikes can be to changes. That dirt bike I got to run great, but with a spark arrestor would still foul plugs so I needed to be leaner than stock for the elevation and modifications I had to ride in the woods here.
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Hi, great looking bike! Which clutch basket rubbers did you use? Which dealer/brand? Kind regards, Emiel
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i ordered these from the UK
https://www.ebay.com/itm/156080700060?itmmeta=01HSHKFBZTS2FDQZR7835J6AZ1&hash=item2457227a9c:g:2MgAAOSwNetloepT&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8JuGvduuE6KzzeGdWVTIKHG8yM1kafSVMCQtNMKEGWBgih9OeKWIuYacbVWT0D4wjNvC7ntLpzpXneD%2BIiiIpd69UTE4MlOKGuVr9D2Q%2F0pc2S7qr5nfJeGBAPc%2F7EOeR5Ykxsw0Yd%2Bt3s8R9BLeLo%2B7b6XiV0gM26rpeGRTcTiEYzdYLOIs%2BkpJ2S0I8n2APopOvN9oqOER57G66FHYX04uKEKlygdL5NJCuebGPZWTitWfMFy45NYRs2yiFuq2KqeXxSNtyKQYT8TH05PFDHeeW0WaS5gSilz4an9bvIO6vxptT1XIBn7gMz9zEccrRA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4jAvbPMYw
Mine were type "B". it is my understanding that Most 408 cc bikes use Type "B" and the 398cc motors use Type "A".
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I finally received the rest of the correct Keihin brass from CMS yesterday. I got the carbs assembled and setup on the bench as close as i could get them synchronized.
As I suspected the previous owner put in some larger Jets and messed with the Needle position. There were #90 main Jets #44 slow and the needle clip was at the bottom groove. pulling the needle up to full rich. I replaced with #75 main #38 slow and clip in the middle position .
Took it out yesterday between showers. Wow what an amazing little bike. ran like a Swiss watch.
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I finally received the rest of the correct Keihin brass from CMS yesterday. I got the carbs assembled and setup on the bench as close as i could get them synchronized.
As I suspected the previous owner put in some larger Jets and messed with the Needle position. There were #90 main Jets #44 slow and the needle clip was at the bottom groove. pulling the needle up to full rich. I replaced with #75 main #38 slow and clip in the middle position .
Took it out yesterday between showers. Wow what an amazing little bike. ran like a Swiss watch.
So glad to hear you sorted out the jetting! Congrats!
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Nice work to get it back on track.
As many of the threads indicate on this topic, these carb are deadly accurate for jetting, with such importance in really, really clean installation air passageways.
Assuming no mods to motor and intake, then they carburate with great accuracy.
Another consideration if needed for minor adjustments, the size of the idle jet and subsequently the ultimate airscrew setting cover a very significant range of response and quite high up into the rev range on anything much below 3/4 throttle opening.
As with this original jet specification fitted by PO, a larger main jet is often fitted which completely stuffs the overall running scheme.
As you find though, a real delight to ride when optimum setup is done. A lovely small,capacity four indeed.
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Thank you..
I have been taking the bike for shorts rides around the neighborhood doing test n tune and feeling it out before i go any distance.
I waited a few rides to get the RPM's up and go a little faster. i noticed On WOT it was bogging at about 6500. so i ordered some slightly larger main jets #78 They still have not arrived. I noticed it was getting a little worse and doing it at about 5000 .
Not sure if anyone has had this happen? For 1 the rear brake light was stuck on. The battery was Not getting charged with my short little rides.I charged The battery overnight.
The first test ride it made it to redline and smoothly accelerated in all RPM ranges! Rode it for about 20 miles. all the plugs are a nice Amber. So I will not Be Yarding off the carburetors again to re jet.