Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: alexdecker on July 31, 2022, 03:18:28 PM
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Trying to source a left side oil leak, either from the pump or the shift shaft seal. Both the pump and the shift shaft has gotten new seals in the rebuild, but when taking the first ride, it leaked rather a lot still.
Noticed a tiny bit of lateral movement in the shift shaft. Is that normal?
Is there a place I can source all five o-rings for the oil pump in Europe? I noticed that you can not get new screw nor the o-ring for the oil pump, and it’s not in the part list either?
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Have you tried Nurse Julie I bought my 400 pump kit from Julie?
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Have you tried Nurse Julie I bought my 400 pump kit from Julie?
I will write her!
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I got the kit, its spot on and dead cheap Alex
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Is the gear change seal flush with the case ? If you push it too far back, there is a oil channel that can be blocked by the seal and if this happens the oil is not feeding the internal parts. Engine will not last long and the seal will leak ;)
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Is the gear change seal flush with the case ? If you push it too far back, there is a oil channel that can be blocked by the seal and if this happens the oil is not feeding the internal parts. Engine will not last long and the seal will leak ;)
I think I put it in the right amount. There was a slight size in diameter from where the seal should sit to the oil passage, indicating how far in it should go. Shot a few pics of it today. Doesn’t it look okay?
The seal is completely dry though, but starting the engine up, the oil pump cover seal started dripping almost immediately, so pretty positive that’s where the leak is. Ordered a new complete set from Julie, so hopefully I will kill this soon, and no other leak will surface when I rev this thing up and put it through some pressure!
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Looks like an O-Ring chain, make sure there is clearance for it.
Seal looks ok, looks dry as well.
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Looks like an O-Ring chain, make sure there is clearance for it.
Seal looks ok, looks dry as well.
Mmh. I don’t know if it is. I have not had any problems with it. Where should it need clearance? I can’t hear any rattling noise again any metal when I run it.
EDIT: Just googled the matter. How in the world can you spot the difference? Mine does not have a master link if that means anything. Only one of the links have some dimples in the end of the small pins holding the links together.
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The O-Ring is a thicker chain than standard so check where the rivet pins go as it goes around the front sprocket, there are some reports of them gouging a track in the crankcase, hitting the chain guard that you're after and on the 500 breaking the clutch push rod. See if you can spot any shiny areas where it might be touching.
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Hi, I was comparing this (550) to my 500 and I think I can just see on Alex’s pic where the deeper part of the casing ‘swells out’ maybe about 15mm deeper in.
On mine I have no pic further in, but the seal is recessed only about 2mm in, which is where it was gently pushed to, and stopped.
It can just be seen in the attached pic, does that look normal for the 500/4?
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Looks too far in to me but the pic is really small and I can't expand it to see clearer.
The seal should sit flush with the casing.
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Thanks Oddjob. It’s in by 1-2 mm, the edge of the seal is just visible to the right of the tip of the arrow.
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TBH it looks deeper than that but pics can deceive. As Graham says there is an oil hole behind that seal to keep the gear shaft lubricated as it passes through the casing, if the seal is too far back it blocks this hole and the shaft can start to seize inside the casing and the seal doesn't get lubricated either so the edges of the seal lips wear, the internal seal spring can go rusty and fail.
I'm not saying replace it, it may not be deep enough to fully block the oil hole, just keep and eye on it and see if it starts to leak. If it does, replace and don't make the same mistake next time. Live and learn, at least it's not an expensive mistake.
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Understood now good call thanks Oddjob.
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PS any idea how far back the oil hole is? then I can judge it as I can recall the thickness of the seal.
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I've got some bare cases around, I'll take a pic, seem to recall it's right at the back. I'll measure the depth of the hole and see if I can find a seal (just removed 2 from some old cases but threw them in the bin, maybe a little dig around in the bin will find one) if I can find it I'll measure the seal and we can see what sort of clearance we have before it's blocked.
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PS any idea how far back the oil hole is? then I can judge it as I can recall the thickness of the seal.
Here is an image from Matthews video, showing the seat for the seal and the oil passage behind that.
(https://i.imgur.com/MHXKyKV.jpg)
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The O-Ring is a thicker chain than standard so check where the rivet pins go as it goes around the front sprocket, there are some reports of them gouging a track in the crankcase, hitting the chain guard that you're after and on the 500 breaking the clutch push rod. See if you can spot any shiny areas where it might be touching.
Holy s*** am I glad you caught that. Just went down to the bike and looked. The chain has eaten into the case, and already started eating into the new seal I put in during the rebuild. Don’t know how I could’ve missed this. It took a pretty big chunk of the piece of metal right below the seal (hard to see in the image though).
Two questions: What is the proper chain I need to put in? And also, the seal that has been eaten into is the transmission seal - I can’t replace that without taking cases apart, right?
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That is a blanking plug and will be fine as is.
You need a 530 HD chain NON O RING OR X RING
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Alex, that is a very clear and helpful picture thank you.
My problem with the o-ring chain exactly the same. New push rod from Trigger, seals from Julie, and chain from DSS, although they need to know the number of links as they initially sent one too long thinking I was going to remove the extra links.
Attached is my 500 showing the ‘old’ push rod and seal using the 550 blanking plug position.
If Oddjob or anyone has a pic similar to your case but of a 500 showing if the oil feed hole is there or not that would be verrrrry useful.
One thing I have spotted is a pic on eBay of a case with the seal flush with the case……. :o
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Not sure what that white stuff is on the push rod Jezza? PTFE?
Whatever it needs to come off, where it is means it will get pulled into the push rod seal and it will destroy the lip edges or at the very least force them apart so oil leaks through.
Alex, so long as that seal isn't penetrated it will be fine, it doesn't look bad TBH, good job you found it early though.
There are O-Ring chains that fit, I've run one for ages and had no problems, although the standard size is normally a 50 chain there are chains stamped as 50 but they are thinner. DID seemed to have a habit of supplying Honda with chains that aren't the same size as what they sell to the public, my DID OE 1300 chain for instance isn't the same as a normal DID chain for the 1300. You need different rivet links as the OE uses thinner pins which aren't as long.
Just fit a standard non o-ring chain with a split link and you'll be fine. If I can find the size of the O-Ring chain that does work I'll post it so you can investigate next time you need a chain. I took mine off a CBX550 I was breaking out of a crate, it worked fine and it's still lying on the garage floor so next time I go round to the garage I'll measure the links/pins etc and do a comparison.
I'll take a pic of my spare 500 cases but I'm fairly sure that seal opening is the same on the 550 cases.
Fair amount of casing damage on Matthews pic Alex, clearly had a drive chain breakage at some point.
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Thanks Oddjob it’s Lithium grease. Not been on long, I’ll remove it when/if I need to do the seal, or just remove it shortly.
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Grease is ok, looks like plastic to me.
Just checked the 500 cases, it has the same oil hole, same diameter. However after refitting an old seal it appears it's not possible to drive the seal in enough to block the hole, the hole is lipped as you can see and the lip stops the seal before it goes to far in. It's possible to sink the seal a little if you drive it right down to the lip, so that would explain yours Jezza, however it won't block the hole.
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Many thanks Oddjob. I notice the castings vary quite a bit between models too so comparison not easy, like the thickness of the surround which varies as it goes round in Alex’s pic, also the shape of the ‘bracing piece’ going off it etc.
I recall the seal went in pretty easily, so minimal force used, not enough to go over the lip, and happy it’s in a bit given it wasn’t overly tight. It’s stayed put as I’ve had the cover off a couple of times, including the pic doing the pump seals.
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Grease is ok, looks like plastic to me.
Just checked the 500 cases, it has the same oil hole, same diameter. However after refitting an old seal it appears it's not possible to drive the seal in enough to block the hole, the hole is lipped as you can see and the lip stops the seal before it goes to far in. It's possible to sink the seal a little if you drive it right down to the lip, so that would explain yours Jezza, however it won't block the hole.
It is possible to block the hole Ken, i have had engines here were the owner has put a socket on the seal and wacked in with a hammer. As suggested on a You tube vid on how to drive a seal in ;)
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All good advice thanks gents.
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I tried Graham, hit it with a hammer and I couldn't get it past the lip. If you just tap it flush then you'll be fine.
They must have used a lump hammer to get it in that far ;D ;D
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Just a quick update that Julie’s oil pump rebuild kit solved all my leak problems. Buy with confidence 😊
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Just a quick update that Julie’s oil pump rebuild kit solved all my leak problems. Buy with confidence 😊
☺️☺️☺️☺️☺️☺️
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I’ll second that! 👍