Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: alexdecker on March 17, 2022, 03:55:44 PM
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Mine looks like this. Like paint is flaking off. We’re they originally painted?
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Painted and lacquered Alex. If you've ever sanded the lacquer off instead of using paint stripper you can see the layers as they come off. The paint hides quite a few casting faults in my experience.
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Hmm... I know they clear lacquered and prior to that, the bare alloy treated with a 'conversion' surface treatment on the Honda 4's (like Alodine used in the Aerospace industry ) and I think based on a chromate system. But never heard of them being painted with silver. Exceptions are the smaller and 1960's bikes like the S90 and 450 bomber that were painted. May be wrong of course but it's definitely not what Vic World uses on sandcasts.
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Still doing it today Ash, the casings are also painted and lacquered.
If you've sanded as many casings and such as I have you can see the layers as they sand away.
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Mine looks like this. Like paint is flaking off. We’re they originally painted?
Mine were just lacquered on my 400/4 so I stripped the yellowed stuff off then just polished them.
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That's my point Ted, if you use stripper you never see the silver layer as it comes off with the lacquer. If you look at the pic, the bright areas is the paint, the dark areas are the alloy.
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Hmm... I know they clear lacquered and prior to that, the bare alloy treated with a 'conversion' surface treatment on the Honda 4's (like Alodine used in the Aerospace industry ) and I think based on a chromate system. But never heard of them being painted with silver. Exceptions are the smaller and 1960's bikes like the S90 and 450 bomber that were painted. May be wrong of course but it's definitely not what Vic World uses on sandcasts.
You are right Ash. I have never seen any painted from the factory. Even up to the 90's, the fork manufactures were just a lacquered surface treatment.
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This is what Vic World does :)
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Why not just try sanding one and see?
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I would agree with Ken on this one. Having stripped many alloy casings myself in my time you will notice the surface imperfections that just didnt appear to be there before, because they were hidden by silver paint. :)
Costs would have prevented Honda investing the time and energy into polishing the castings to a good enough standard to then cover them just with clear coat.
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Spot on Ken, the castings are actually not as good as they appear to be, when it's stripped you can see all the little surface imperfections that the paint covered up, getting some of these out so you get a nice polished look can sometimes be extremely difficult. Same applies to frame parts which were painted, strip them and you suddenly start to see weld splatters, parts of welds missing etc that the paint covered up. It was Hondas way of disguising sub standard parts, not sub standard in that the part was dangerous, just unsightly. It also gave a consistent look to the parts which I doubt you could get with bare alloy, even with great care you never get the exact same standard of metal everytime.
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Is there a matching silver paint we are aware of?
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I'm not sure Phil As I've never looked. It's quite a bright silver, maybe it's the same as the engine paint but the lacquer makes it look brighter?
Funny how nobody disputes the engines are painted and yet those are the same alloy as the casings yet they think the casings etc have been polished, which when you think of it would be an incredibly time consuming process for a result that a layer of paint would achieve far simpler and at a much greater cost.
I'm doing a carb mounting bracket at the moment and the tooling marks and casting faults are excessive, yet they look so good when mounted.
Another thing the paint covers is alloy welding, we think the fork sliders are cast in one piece and they aren't. The front caliper adjusting screw mount is welded onto the slider for instance.
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Why not just try sanding one and see?
Are you sure its silver paint and not the chromate conversion coating that was used to make the lacquer adhere to the alloy?
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It's a layer Ash, would chromate conversion do that? TBH I've never heard of before you said, I'd expect it to be really thin and as such not really be much use in covering up tooling marks etc.
I've just bought a NOS fork slider for the 500 as the one I was working on I wasn't happy with. I'd take some pics as I sand the lacquer off and maybe that will help clarify what it is, whatever we are seeing is NOT the alloy underneath no matter what anyone says.
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This may help in appreciating what happens https://aerospacemetalsllc.com/what-is-aluminum-chromate-conversion-coating/ it effectively alters the surface of the material and can look like a paint finish.
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And this one https://www.besttechnologyinc.com/surface-finishing/what-is-alodine-chem-film-chromate-conversion-coating/
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If you think the Honda castings are rough check out 80's Suzuki castings. They are so rough I had to use files to smooth them out after a brake fluid bath to remove the factory coating. Then I sanded them with 400grit. For the final pass I don't sand them with linear strokes, only around the circumference. It gives a nice satin finish. Here's before and after.
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If you think the Honda castings are rough check out 80's Suzuki castings. They are so rough I had to use files to smooth them out after a brake fluid bath to remove the factory coating. Then I sanded them with 400grit. For the final pass I don't sand them with linear strokes, only around the circumference. It gives a nice satin finish. Here's before and after.
Nice job!
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Interesting K2 but reading that makes me more certain it's not Chromate conversion, firstly it says there is a yellow/green iridescent tinge to it, that's not present. Secondly it also states the colour and uniformity will vary from one alloy to another, that means that for all castings the alloy must be exactly the same and that's not really possible as it can vary from batch to batch even if only slightly, in which case you'd get different results and that's not the case.
The NOS fork slider I got today was off a 750K2-K4 and you can clearly see it's been painted, some parts look polished and some are really rough like the Suzuki slider, on the rough parts you can see how the paint has pooled in the ripples in the casting, the bottom axle clamp (also NOS) is painted and not even well, it's orange peeled it's that thick. Also according to the article it doesn't have any measurable buildup so why the orange peel?
I still don't see why you can't just sand a casing etc and see for yourself, then make up your own mind. If you can think of anything besides a layer of paint after I'd be pleased to hear it as that's what it looks like to me. Go on, prove me wrong. It won't be the first time, or the last ;D ;D
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Here you go Ken ...clear chromate conversion coating ... like Vic World uses
I can't just sand a fork leg 'cos all of my forks here I stripped and polished years ago. I think I have some 1969 forks off a 5k mile CB250SS at my stash though .. so next time I go there I will dig 'em out. From memory the lacquer was still on and in pretty good nick.
[attachimg=1]
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Perhaps Vic Worlds does use the coating, doesn’t mean Honda did though Ash. Maybe they couldn’t find the exact colour that Honda used and that gave a close enough result.
I can’t see that word Hexavalent Chromium without thinking of Erin Brockovich
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Perhaps Vic Worlds does use the coating, doesn’t mean Honda did though Ash. Maybe they couldn’t find the exact colour that Honda used and that gave a close enough result.
I can’t see that word Hexavalent Chromium without thinking of Erin Brockovich
It's generally accepted, particularly in the aerospace industry that normal paint/lacquer will not adhere reliably to aluminium because of the oxide layer that immediately forms on bare metal. Honda were pretty advanced and probably used a lot of ideas from other industries. If you sand back a CB250K frame you will not find any evidence of a solvent based primer but a definite light grey coating which I guess may have been some form of phosphate etching or other metal prep chemical process.
If Honda basically 'painted in' the pits in the alloy, why is everyone on these forums sanding the hell out the original finish to get a uniform satin surface like the showroom finish (or highly polished ..yuk). why not just spray the pitted alloy with a can of Duplicolor DE1615, flatting off and then lacquering?
I think hexavalent chromium chemicals are pretty much outlawed everywhere now .. although I suspect and know of at least one chromer who stockpiled enough of the stuff for 'special jobs' to see him into his retirement. But back in the day Honda or their sub-contractors, would have readily used the stuff along with cyanide in the zinc plating and asbestos in the gaskets, brake linings etc.
Maybe I have been lucky Ken and had fork bottoms that were decent enough, with no surface imperfections, that they were never painted to hide the pits but I am still of the belief that non of them had any silver paint applied (talking Honda CB250k's and Honda 4's here .... Most of my 60's bikes were definitely painted finish when they left the factory, apart from my 175 sloper.
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I can't see that it's painted either. The grey as far as I'm aware comes from the chromate process inhibiting the natural corrosion from taking place within the outer layer of the casting.
It doesn't last for ever though effectively being sacrificial in protecting the bulk of the casting, it ultimately turns grey and prevents propagation through further into the material if left alone.
If significantly breached, the casting then starts to go furry as most raw aluminium does if not ultimately protected.
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Well whatever it is it's something between the lacquer and the alloy. That's essentially my point, all those people who kept saying it's polished alloy just lacquered are incorrect, it's not and never has been.