Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Johnwebley on August 23, 2013, 11:29:27 PM
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hi all,
forgive me,but this is pick your expertise time,
I have a standard single disc setup,
I would like to go to twin discs,
can you advise me on the pitfalls,
I guess I shall need a new m/cylinder,caliper,caliper mount,2 bolts,disc,6 extra long disc bolts,hoses,flexi and pipe,
what about new rh fork leg? speedo drive?
are these available,source of parts?
thanks all,
John
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have a look at these links to get you started John:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=53532.25
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68423.575
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John, helps if you say what bike mate
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John, helps if you say what bike mate
the bike in my profile pic,
1974 M reg K1 Cb500-4
thanks
John
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In that case you will need the slider from a 550 or a PAIR of forks from a 550 (internals vary so fitting just one complete fork is not advisable) plus if you look at the other thread on twin discs I linked a word document with a How To.
Always worth putting in what bike mate as avatars don't always show up
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Put your bike in your signature. Simples…
Steve
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hopefuly my pain and agony and oddjob's and bryan's comments in my post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.0 are helpiing .. hopefully not confusing or putting you off have a go yersel John ???
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I was under the inpression that 550 forks were slightly longer than 500 ones - they'll swop over as a set so that is ok. Where I am puzzuled is my 500 has capacity to carry twin disks but as far as I know it has 500 forks. One to worry about when I recommission the sidecar outfit.
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500 never had twin disc capacity so it must have had as a minimum a 550 slider but more likely 550 forks
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hopefuly my pain and agony and oddjob's and bryan's comments in my post at http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=5571.0 are helpiing .. hopefully not confusing or putting you off have a go yersel John ???
thank you Ewan,and all of the posters,it seems that i need a 550 front forks first,then lots of bits -)))) ;D
I will explore the availability and cost,
thanks all
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In that case you will need the slider from a 550 or a PAIR of forks from a 550 (internals vary so fitting just one complete fork is not advisable) plus if you look at the other thread on twin discs I linked a word document with a How To.
Thanks Bryanj, I downloaded your instructions,and am sourcing parts,are 550 fork tubes the same Diameter as the 500,and will they
fit my original yokes?can I just swap the 550 sliders onto my forklegs and internals?
thanks for your help,
all of you
back to feebay to explore more ;D
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You can fit either complete forks as a pair or just the sliders if your tubes are good, I think going back 30 year i only fitted the one slider but memories can be wrong
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looking at parts
disc £35
caliper and bracket £90
master cylinder £35 + brake light switch £15
hose etc £40
forks £90
HT bolts FOC I hope
plus odds and sods,new seals ,bolts etc
that should be about that,
also new set of tyres about £160
jezzzzz
september is going to be expensive,and petrol at £1,37.9 a litre !!
I shall let you know what happens
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some stuff on eabay just now John:
caliper arm, £32
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CB450-K-Bremssattel-Halter-caliper-holder-CB500T-75-Schwenkarm-CB350F-CB550-/151045760481?pt=Motorrad_Kraftradteile&hash=item232b0765e1
forks, from £60... this one shows a caliper arm attached:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-CB-550-4-FORKS-/251163168887?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3a7a7dd077
master cyinder (comes with integrated switch) £35 (new):
http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/GL1100-GOLD-WING/part_160384/
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thanks Ewan,
I saw the Master cylinder,but decided I wanted the older round resevior type,like
http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/GL1000K2-GOLDWING-1977/part_126548/
the caliper and bracket are
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-cb-550-four-brake-caliper-1977-/271228605178
the forks look a better bethttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-cb-550-four-forks-1977-/271228589227
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB500-CB-500-Four-4-Brake-Disk-/350845499406
and this disc
thanks for your help
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worth putting some posts in "desperately seeking" ... if you do go with two wheel spares my experience is that they will go with a lower "offer" on ebay than their stated starting price.
If getting a second hand caliper you probably want to budget for new piston and seal ... as well as being wary of the bleed nipple issue oddjob points out. DSS has a compete caliper with piston seal, pads etc for £118
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thanks for your helpful advice,Ewan and Oddjob
I have got the caliper and bracket,pipes and mastercylinder,(ex CB550) ,looks far better condition,and cheaper,
Oddjob,if you have a disc,please let me know,
we can work a deal , ;D
deciding on which forks to buy,the scruffy,or the bright blue ??
thanks
John
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I've got 3 sets of forks .. one set for cafe, one for the basket case and one spare. I was hoping that I'd go out an measure the bottom half sliders/cover hoping they'd all be the same ... they're not !
Set 1, off a 500K1 I think. this set only allows a single disc and have gaiters. The covers are 315mm long from centre of axle hole to top of cover
The covers have the following marking just above the axle seat:
Left cover, on one side: 5 (and barely legible: 2726) & on the other side: HF 5
Right cover, same markings as right hand side.
If we knew for certain which covers are interchangeable between which models we could maybe extend your choice and look at condition of covers only on the basis that this would be all you need if you can determine which are interchangeablle with your own ...by referring to the number markings on your own fork covers ?
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Set 2, this set allow for dual discs & has gaiters. Again the covers are 315mm long from centre of axle hole to top of cover. This set are marked "341" half way up the lower cover , so presumably off a 750 or 550. According to motogrid the covers are common to the 550 and 750, part numbers 51521-341-701 (left) and 51421-341-01 (right). None of the other sets are stamped half way up the covers.
The covers have the following marking just above the axle seat:
Left cover, on one side: L1 5 + some very lightly stamped imperceptibe text & on the other side: HF 5 + some japanese characters
Right cover, on one side: 55Y 14R & on the other side 5 HF + some japanese characters
.... cover possibly interchageable with set 1, above .. (what I think is a 500K1 set) given that covers are same lenght and are all marked HF 5 ???
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Set 3 , pretty sure that these are off a 550K3. Have no gaiters and covers are 350mm long from centre of axle hole to top of cover. These are the ones on my cafe build
The covers have the following marking just above the axle seat:
Left cover, on one side: L 4 (L party gone) & on the other side: 3 P
Right cover, on one side: R 5 & on the other side: 4 Q
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I do recall that the k3 lowers on my k3s were longer than my 500(74 vintage) for some reason though the 500 still has dual disk capacity but no trace of fittment ever being carried out. I'm not sure the the 550f followed the 500 or the k3 pattern and I'd suspect mix and match could end up being a headache in terms of parts being different. I have a few spare sets of forks but not where I can get at them easily. Nor could I say what bike they were off as I've tended to buy when the price made sence in the knowledge that stuff breaks eventually - My first 550 - the brake mounts just decided to crumble - I think some chemical influence or frost plus corrosion but the mount just looked cracked and when I tried to undo the bolt the mount turned to dust :o
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I think that its only the K3 that is different, can't remember what 550 i got my other slider off but it was from a breaker in about 78 so i am pretty sure it was not K3 as they did not have new write off bikes.
Again NONE of the 500 that were offical honda imports to UK had a second caliper mounts as they were all officially K1 models
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. Don't even remember buying them, weird.
:) ... I'd take the 0.5 overs off you if you're interested in disposing of them oddjob
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I think that its only the K3 that is different, can't remember what 550 i got my other slider off but it was from a breaker in about 78 so i am pretty sure it was not K3 as they did not have new write off bikes.
Again NONE of the 500 that were offical honda imports to UK had a second caliper mounts as they were all officially K1 models
Was there a 500K3 ? .. I've a 500K3 / 550K3 original parts book . In this both models use the same forks that allow for dual discs . Maybe the 500K3 never got imported to UK ?
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500K3 was european mainland only and never officially came to UK, But have seen a couple in the last few years
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I've had 2 cb550k3's the first was known to me and my mates as 'box of cogs' as that was how it arrived. I learnt a fair bit re assembling the rusty pile of scrap into a workable machine - it came with 2 engines - one the camchain tensioner had let go and the gearbox was full of metal that had scored all the selector groves and forks - the other engine wasn't much better, I bought a 3rd that was so rotten the cluch casing had litrally turned to oxide and only bits were left and the entire thing was full of mud but the top end was perfect under the thick mud. It unsurprisingly seized it's crank on the first outing - was a bit on the rough side) That bike had a sticker from a dealer in 'little leaver' Bolton on the sidepannel both were T reg and I had them over 10 years ago. I sold the frame of the other after it snapped a camshaft - it was my first big bike after passing my test and was £220 including 6 months tax and test and had all the chromework appart from the front mudguard painted gold ::) It did however thrash my mates superdream on economy on motorways and match it penny for penny on A roads and was armchair comfortable.
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( John .. sorry for the thread hijack , but got prbs with PM sanding at times ! )
Odjob , I've PM'd you re 0.5 oversizes)
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ok,update coming,
forks arrived,they must have been for a 550k,so the slider was the same length as my 500.,
think the internals are different,but I am expecting to just fit on my existing stanchion,and use same springs and internals,
disc ordered,
and caliper,bracket hoses,etc
I intend to use a double length banjo to join the brake pipes,so I don't need to worry about brakelight switch,
hopefully the new bolts,and speedo drive mods will go OK
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I fitted twin discs to my commuter 550F1 & they made the world of differance. I also drilled the discs & used a set of Vesrah pads on one side & Ferodo pads in the other caliper. This was so that, in the rain it would act like a single disc but in the dry like twin discs. I used a standard 550F2 master cylinder with Aeroquip lines feeding to both calipers directly from the splitter under the headlight.
Sorry I can't post up any pics atm but photobucket say I need to upgrade my account as i've used all of my bandwidth this month >:(
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starting to get all the bits together,
cleaning and checking
ordered new master cylinder ,and various seal ,
servicing caliper,
HINT !!
a broken piston ring is perfect for cleaning the seal groove in the caliper !!!!!
more posts as I go along
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lower r/h fork changed,caliper mount sorted,needed a little work to make the arm swivel smoothly,
only about 85mm between r/h and l/h mountings,means I need to remove bolt to fit wheel !! and refit after,
is this normal ??
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lower r/h fork changed,caliper mount sorted,needed a little work to make the arm swivel smoothly,
only about 85mm between r/h and l/h mountings,means I need to remove bolt to fit wheel !! and refit after,
is this normal ??
Hi John, the distance between the r/h and l/h bottom pivot arm mounting bracket bolts on mine is 86mm. I can just squeeze the 100/90/19 tyre past them , but only when deflated. The caliper on one side does have to come off first though
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thanks Ewan,
just had a set of Dunlops fitted, 3.25 X 19 front,4.00 X 18 Rear, done about 70 miles to scrub them in,feel different from the Avons
but growing in confidence -))))
about 12mm chicken strip both sides so far,
great straight line tracking,light handling feel,
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thanks Ewan,
just had a set of Dunlops fitted, 3.25 X 19 front,4.00 X 18 Rear, done about 70 miles to scrub them in,feel different from the Avons
better / worse or just different ? ;)
sure I'm daft .. but whats a chicken strip ? :-X
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Aka chicken bands - the bit of the tyre at the edges not being worn indicating the bike doesn't get leant right over - should see my dead tyres collection, some are down to canvass on the middle and still as new round the edges - sidecars do that as does lots of winter riding.
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Aka chicken bands - the bit of the tyre at the edges not being worn indicating the bike doesn't get leant right over - should see my dead tyres collection, some are down to canvass on the middle and still as new round the edges - sidecars do that as does lots of winter riding.
I'll let the poultry know in the morning ;)
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Aka chicken bands - the bit of the tyre at the edges not being worn indicating the bike doesn't get leant right over - should see my dead tyres collection, some are down to canvass on the middle and still as new round the edges - sidecars do that as does lots of winter riding.
after riding on Avons 90/90 X 19 f.and 100/90 X rear for over 10 yrs ,I found the centre rear seemed to go quicker on each new tyre !!
the front lasted about 3 rears,great grip,inspires confidence dry,wet or greasy,
the Dunlops are the traditional size,3.25 x 19 F,and 4.00 x 18 r,both sets running 29 psi F,and 36 psi R,
these have a taller profile,larger rolling diameter,so apart from the feel of new tyres,,I also feel it drops in to the corner/roundabout
more,and after 70 ish miles feel very good,
also,
just ordered a speed drive plate 44641-300-000 as I thought it easier than modding the dished original
40 euros from Cmsnl
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Just hope they send you the correct drive plate as the original number superceeded to the new style one and you had to have a new style chrome plate
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Just hope they send you the correct drive plate as the original number superceeded to the new style one and you had to have a new style chrome plate
I thought they were unobtanium , be really interesting to hear if they dont send the superceeded version , ie the kind with the lugs that fit in the chrome cover. The one with the lugs that fit in the chrome cover is the one on the right in the second and third photos below. 44641-300-00 shape is the one on the left. Also, there's two versions of the type that has the lugs that fit in the chrome cover ( ie the one on the right). One is solid and one is a two part one with the two parts joined with rubber. I used the former to make my equivalent 44641-300-000.. if I recall correctly I seem to remember seeing somewhere that you cant use the two part one to modify to a 44641-300-000 shape (maybe because the heat from the grinder would melt the rubber ?? ). One more thing ...the one I made is only suitable for a twin disc conversion if the hub you have has the cut away flat sections .. see the first photo below. If you have the hub without the cut aways the approach taken is different .... you still need to modify the speedo drive plate, essentially by cutting of the lip, leaving a flat surface on the bottom without any tabs which is then screwed / riveted / glued / JB welded to the face of the hub. There's a few posts about covering these.
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if the worst comes to the worts and they do send you the wrong part .. and you do have the hub with the cutaways ... then its pretty easy to modify a speedo drive plate (see picture)
1. use a hacksaw to cut slots down beside the existing lugs (red lines in photo)
2. Use a bench grinder to grind off all the side wall material shown in blue in the photo , so that you are left with a flat base with two tabs for the hub.. like the one in the left of the photo
3. Cut / grind the tabs so that they are the right depth to slot into hub cutaways
4. Tidy up any rough edges with a file
Theres also another method that involves milling depressions in the disc so that the drive plate tabs sit in the disc
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thanks guys,
I am also hoping they send the correct drive plate,
I could have modded my original plate,but figured it is easier to buy a replacement,
I ordered it by the part number,no comments about it being superseded,
fingers crossed,
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I do have the hub with twin cutaways,
re the gear drive
went on order tracker,details as follows,
ordered 12th sept,original dispatch 18th
latest dispatch date 23rd,
I await developments
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YEAH !!!!!
the drive retainer arrived,
It's the right one !!!!!!
fitted,with a few mods to disc center and all looks great,nearly all done,
just need to swop master cylinder and bleed the system.
I got the part from CMSNL.com,,,
ordered 12th,arrived 20th,via UPS,
paid by debit card ,in euros,
and,best of all
got a cute little CMS key ring !!!
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YEAH !!!!!
the drive retainer arrived,
It's the right one !!!!!!
fitted,with a few mods to disc center and all looks great,nearly all done,
just need to swop master cylinder and bleed the system.
bloody hell , ignore all of above expressions of doubt :) :)
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Yeah !!!!
finished !!
hope the pics are self explanatory
you welcome to ask
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well done John , you seem to have had a lot less pain than me ;) ... in your photos it looks like you had to cut a couple of clots in the disc to allow the cpeedo drive tangs in .. is that right ? . Weird, I never had to do that on mine. Did you need any washers / shims on the caliper arm bracket to get the right hand caliper aligned right ?
Speedo cable clearing the new disc okay ?
You just need an adjuster spring for the right hand side now ?
Let us know what its like on the road
cheers,
ewan
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well done John , you seem to have had a lot less pain than me ;) ... in your photos it looks like you had to cut a couple of clots in the disc to allow the cpeedo drive tangs in .. is that right ? . Weird, I never had to do that on mine. Did you need any washers / shims on the caliper arm bracket to get the right hand caliper aligned right ?
Speedo cable clearing the new disc okay ?
You just need an adjuster spring for the right hand side now ?
Let us know what its like on the road
cheers,
ewan
hi Ewan,yes ,I did need to file the disc center,so glad it was alloy !!!
also had to remove about 4mm from the rim of the drive retainer so it fitted inside the disc center,
needed 1 washer on the lower bolt (8mm) this was mainly to let the arm swivel freely,
speedo cable is about 4-5mm from the disc,so far,no contact,
I have always run my brakes without a spring,to let the arm move freely as the fixed pad wears,its an mid 70's mod.seems to improve
the braking,
need time for the pads to bed in,then I'll let you know how they work,
thanks
John