Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: Orcade-Ian on April 29, 2021, 06:26:21 PM
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Just taxed the Wing today for 1st May - £96 (our Honda Jazz is £30) Anyway, there is a feedback/comments box which is probably never even looked at but I thought I'd have a rant anyway. Complained about the fact that they charge buyer and seller for the same thing at change of ownership - if I tried that, say on eBay, it would be called fraud. The other thing I outlined was the charging by the month rather than by the day as nearly every other organisation does - even council tax. Also if you declare Sorn with months left it applies immediately, so again you have paid for something you are then not allowed to use. If you are declaring Sorn with no complete months left, it can be done from the end of the month. We know it's done in their hope that folk forget and suddenly realise a new month has started that they will now lose.
If we sit on our hands and say nothing, it will definitely not change.
Ian
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It's a money making machine, political pressure though your mp or court action might get some movement, it was someone standing up to them in court over scorn fines that got the automatic sorn fine changed. They basically took a freedom of info request on how many letters dvla lost internally and the courts then found that a system that automatically fined us as soon as a sorn isn't done on time wasn't legal, now we get a reminder to sorn. Dvla can be a beurocratic nightmare and the system won't change unless they are forced, if you can get to talk to the staff they can be ok.
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I'd be up for a petition, but I doubt it would do any good. I'm the same as you, my car, a 160 bhp Beemer costs just £30 a year to tax. All my bikes are over 600cc so as you say it costs £96 a year now to tax each one and I can't ride them all at once! I think there should be another intermediate group for bikes between 600 and 999cc. I have a 175 bhp 1077cc Aprilia and yet someone with a 47bhp Enfield Interceptor pays the same road tax as me. A level playing field is needed methinks.
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Cars are taxed based on emissions.....which is fine by me.
Bikes are taxed on loose engine sized groupings. Which is out dated and frankly dumb.
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Problem is bikes make up less than 1% of road traffic in the UK, (but account for 30% of road fatalities according to insurers) so we are the minority on the roads. Which is why successive governments have got away with screwing us over. Road tax used to be about how much damage vehicles did to the roads, which is why HGVs get stung for thousands each year, but bikes do not damage the roads, so really they should all be tax exempt. Truth is we Are a minority, governments know that, so we will always get stung because the votes they risk losing are negligible, but they make 3 times what some cars pay for road tax from us, and we can shout and stamp our feet, but won't be heard.
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Sorry folks,
My fault with the opening comment having just taxed the bike and a car - that was just a throw-away statement and realise that disparity will probably never change - my apologies!
My gripe is not about the differences between vehicles but the almost fraudulent way they collect 2 months tax on the same vehicle at change of ownership. If they calculated VED on a daily basis like other organisations can, then the most you might lose is 1 day each - fairer.
The other part of my annoyance is declaring Sorn which applies immediately if there are refunds but at the end of the month where no refund is applicable.
As far as a petition goes, perhaps it might do no good but not having a petition will CERTAINLY do no good either!
Ian
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I know what you mean Ian. I sold a car to my son at the end of the calender month, intentionally so neither of us lost any money (i.e. a months tax) but the b*****ds said I hadn't informed them I'd sold it prior to the end of the month (which I definitely had) and charged me anyway for the following month. With hindsight I should've cancelled the direct debit (I paid monthly for that car) but I thought it would end automatically when I sold the vehicle.
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I just read this and I feel sorry for you guys. I'm not sure what sorn is or how your tax system works but it seems confusing. We have a one time fee vintage license plate for vehicles 35 years and older in our state. My friend and I have ten bikes between us and all but two are old enough to be on vintage plates. Without the vintage plate system there's no way we could have ten bikes to choose from when it's time to ride.
One thing is the same though. Battling the department of motor vehicles is a pain in the butt no matter where you live. 8)
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My two pennyworth (for what it's worth).
Golden Rule number one: ALL Government Departments are crap ! If they had to run their Departments like a normal business, most would be out of business or bankrupt within months ! Fact.
Governments, Ministers and MP's are elected (supposedly) to represent their Constituents, but don't actually have any interest in mundane stuff like Vehicle Tax, Registrations and MOT's etc as they are too busy running the country (Government and the party of Government) or they are too busy telling the party in Government how to do their jobs (H.M. Opposition Party). We - the Voters therefore have no voice, no say and no chance !
Most Government Departments have little clue about running a business so their Systems and Forms are mostly 'not fit for purpose'. Designing a Form (online or paper) is an Art which few can manage well. When you are designing a Form that 66 Million Users can easily follow is nigh on impossible because in an audience of 66M, there will be many thousands who simply don't fit the model it was designed for. Sitting down face to face with a human to explain why your situation is unique and needs special attention is simply not allowed, so you have no chance of getting a fair hearing.
The concept of making the 'Customer' tell the truth, getting their problem resolved ASAP and if they tell lies they understand and accept they will be severely punished is alien to Civil Servants, so the onus is on the Department to ensure that everything is 100% rather than it being down to the 'Customer' to make an accurate - and legally enforceable declaration just isn't allowed.
Most Civil Service Departments employ a large number of 'Agency' or 'Short Term Temps' as the Government wants us to believe that the Civil Service is not 'Top Heavy' with Staff (although it actually costs more in the long run, but these costs are hidden or come out of easily disguised 'other' funds) which takes the pressure off Government, Ministers and Heads of Sheds in the Civil Service. As such workers may not be with the Department next week or next month, their training is minimal, and as I have already pointed out, where the Systems and Forms are unworkable or so cumbersome or difficult to follow, even their own personnel can't understand or apply any consistency when out of the ordinary situations crop up.
I have spent many years as an Accredited Lead Auditor and have audited many leading Companies in many different fields. I have also undertaken many Accident and Incident Investigations (to find out exactly what went wrong and to put suitable controls in place to prevent it happening again) and have been responsible for writing and developing Management Systems (including Forms and Monthly and Annual Reports), and over many years I have reached the conclusion that the Civil Service is inept, and 'Not fit for purpose' ! My simple solution - if I was reporting to the Transport Minister - would be to streamline the Systems and Forms so that 90%+ could use them online and for the other 10% where things are not so easy, have local or Regional Offices where the Customer can speak to a skilled and experienced Operator or make a face to face appointment, pay a reasonable Fee to talk through their situation and leave with the problems resolved satisfactorily and everyone would be much happier. The Fee would pay for the Offices and some Operators could work from home using Flexible Working arrangements which as this Pandemic has shown, is a thoroughly logical and desirable option in today's world.
Lastly, they only get away with such a crap service because we let them ! WE pay the wages of these people. I will happily write a 'round robin' letter for sohc Members to send to their MP.......I'll happily do it, but to have any effect, a lot of members will have to send it to their MP's. What do members think ?
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Thanks for that very frank and thorough reply,
It is much more than I had hoped for - even though I knew there were like minded folk out there. Most of us are members of other forums too and I have heard this rather unfair situation (and others) being discussed regularly. Even today, Philward is having hassle regarding the intransigence of the 'computa says no' brigade. A situation I have had before.
I would be very happy to send a letter to my MP and distribute it to as many as possible. He acted successfully on my behalf a few years back over a DVLA registration document issue - no need to expand on that unless anyone is especially interested.
I think the Gov petition system has to reach 100,000 signatories (Hm, signaTORIES!)
before it would be looked at - surely we can achieve that?
Ian
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Talking of not getting a full refund, a few years ago I decided to pack up with newer motorbikes and just keep the classics. Had a ER6N and "sold" it to my lad for a song. Rang agent to cancel the insurance (think the premium was about £150 PA and the was about 4 months to run) and was expecting a small refund. They said that will be an EXTRA £20 then thank you very much!
After much discussion I told them if the wanted it their name would be mud.
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It should be streamlined to the point it doesn't exist.
All the negative arguments over the years of putting road duty onto fuel have disappeared with systems they have in place now.
What's the point of making an offence for the sake of it? Simplifying it to combine with collection through fuel purchase avoids millions in unwanted administrative activity.
You can't use a vehicle without fuel, by default they would all pay, while being used, in proportion to their status.
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Count me in Ian.
I've just had a response back today regarding another petition I signed about the impotation of honey bees into the UK from countries with known bee hive mites (a very bad situation if you keep honey bees).
Petitions do work if enough people sign them.
Dave
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The other 'issue' with the DVLA taxation revolves around all the foreign registered cars I see on the road. Bulgarian, Albanian, Lithuanian, Romanian.... why would people bring cars all that way to use them here. Simple. The taxation system doesn't pick them up. They are supposed to UK register them after a shoprt period, but that is never enforced.
The total reliance on ANPR is probably also sending parking tickets and other offences off to an empty apartment in Bucharest, Yuri Bugarov supposedly lives.
Charging such tax on fuel would avoid a large reason to dodge tax, remove issues with simple non payment, ensure those whose cars are not registered in the UK even though they live here pay the same, and actually charge people based on the amount of fuel they burn. Surely that is as fair as such a scheme could ever be?
Instead, we have the SORN ripoff, the double payment month every time a vehicle changes hands, and taxation whether you are using a vehicle or not.
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Well it certainly looks like I've touched a raw nerve with this one, so I will liaise with MCTID and see if we can get something together - preferably as a petition or even just as a letter to our various MPs.
I'm not entirely sure about putting the VED on fuel, my reason being that a few years ago 70 odd percent of all cars registered were company vehicles, so they will just pass that extra cost onto us, the consumer. This would mean that the private motorist would pay twice. Btw, in that same year under 30% in Germany were company vehicles.
I had forgotten about the foreign vehicles - a good point worth including. As Brits, if we travel to Austria and Switzerland we have to pay to use the motorways, so why not sell the foreigners a compulsory ticket to use ours?
As I said previously, it might come to nought, but doing nothing will certainly not improve anything.
Ian
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My objection to VED on fuel is we would lose out as most of our real bikes are currently exempt, so putting it on fuel would be detrimental to most of us on here!
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No good sticking it on fuel as not all fuel is used only in vehicles unless the tax is removed at the point of sale as can be done when buying LPG for cooking/heating. Also as more and more EVs hit the road fuel sales will reduce greatly and the Gov need their pound of flesh from somewhere.
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Not sure I want to pay fuel gathered road tax to mow the lawn, or cut some bricks with my Stihl saw, or use a speedboat, or leaf blower etc etc.
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The original intention of my post was to see if there might be any support for 'having a go' at the DVLA and the two gripes were:
Their inability to use a daily calculator for VED (even more simple now we don't get a disc) and double charging VED at ownership change.
I never mentioned putting the duty on fuel for the reason I outlined earlier but would certainly add charging foreign vehicles to use our roads, just as some countries do with us.
We'll see what we can come up with and let the masses decide if they want change.
Ian
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To get to 100k signatures needs a planned approach, so firstly what do you want a debate in Parliament about and who will then chip in ( ie our MPs). And aim for far mote than 100k.
Then, social media campaign or awareness... Is a start point to set up petition then all of us share with all/ any vehicle clubs/ village websites we are in to try to raise interest and get petition numbers up? Then something broader eg approach all vehicle magazines to support it too...car and bike. Maybe some human interest, stories eg 'in lockdownnInlost my job and sorted or tried to reg tax back and was ripped off by the DVLA etc..and I only have one kidney et al. The Mail might like that angle.
Before we know it our most photogenic supporters (any offers?) are on the evening news talking about it..and how those funds are being used to decorate Downing Street.
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It should be streamlined to the point it doesn't exist.
All the negative arguments over the years of putting road duty onto fuel have disappeared with systems they have in place now.
What's the point of making an offence for the sake of it? Simplifying it to combine with collection through fuel purchase avoids millions in unwanted administrative activity.
You can't use a vehicle without fuel, by default they would all pay, while being used, in proportion to their status.
A big driver for VED is to keep ownership records as up to date as possible and ensure vehicles are MoT'd & Insured.
I spend about £2k a year mainly on Diesel so despite paying £800 ish a year on VED on 3 vehicles (all old so high emissions) we still pay a lot of Tax on the fuel with VAT & fuel duty. When electric car ownership becomes the mainstream it will be interesting to see how they raise the missing fuel duty revenue from the remaining motorists. I am unlikely to be around when that happens !
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Easy, they will increase the vedon electric vehicles, remember calor gas conversions cos duty on gas was low!!!
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Pay per mile for electric vehicles (eventually) and a tax on the use of roadside chargers (not domestic ones) IMHO. It's already built in to Jan's electric vehicle, the manufacturer knows when you charge it, the mileage and when it's due for service.
I/C engines will be with us for at least 50 years, as will petrol and diesel. excise duty on both is likely to increase above inflation.
All IMHO and it could of course be bolleaux.