Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 06, 2020, 11:14:59 AM
Well I saved our old kitchen oven at work for curing the paint on my 500 & 750 crankcases .. for my smaller engines we have big enough lab type ovens at work and I don't need to work on those yet anway. However, my old oven is at work and the premises are closed for at least another two weeks and I want to get my 500/4 engine put together during the lockdown period.
I have plenty of engineering bricks and wall coping stones plus I bought a NOS fan oven element off eBay yesterday .. only bidder .. won for £2 plus I have an industrial type hot air gun (designed for plastic welding etc). So thinking of trying to mock something up outside once I have gone in my loft to see if I have some kind of thermostart / temperature controller. Thinking of using the hot air gun to provide air circulation.
If anyone has any 'make-do & mend' ideas, I am all ears. Using our new kitchen oven is out of the question, as my wife suffers from asthma so using that is definitely out of the question.
Post by: mike the bike on April 10, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I would add a thermostat so your paintwork doesn't over heat and burn off.
Also I would angle the hot air gun past the fan element, otherwise it will just glow red and burn out. Consider a vent as well, you'll have air going in from the air gun, if there's no exhaust, you won't get more air in and you'll overheat the air gun.
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 10, 2020, 10:32:45 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 10, 2020, 12:32:00 PM
Sounds like you're on the right track with all that kit.
I would add a thermostat so your paintwork doesn't over heat and burn off.
Also I would angle the hot air gun past the fan element, otherwise it will just glow red and burn out. Consider a vent as well, you'll have air going in from the air gun, if there's no exhaust, you won't get more air in and you'll overheat the air gun.
Yes agree . I ordered a 16 Amp capilliary type thermostat off eBay yesterday ... still polishing cases etc anyway so still not applied the paint yet. The oven electric element arrived too and it's 2.5kW so should provide a bit of heat in addition o the head gun.
Post by: Rob62 on April 10, 2020, 09:11:29 PM
Post by: Seamus on April 11, 2020, 08:27:27 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 21, 2020, 07:08:50 AM
I was initially going to sneak into work and, being an electronics engineer, I have loads of fancy pant's stuff at my disposal at work for controlling/monitoring temperature etc... but that's no use if anyone else wants to do the same as me ... so I set myself a target to spend a tenner on eBay and buy domestic oven parts. I did OK.. I only broke the budget by £1.
I got an old computer fan as Seamus suggested to create airflow but in the end I decided that the crankcases are such are large thermal mass of alloy that it wasn't reallly necessary ... after all it's not a Mary Berry Victoria sponge I am baking ;D
I bought a capilliary type thermostat capable of switching 16A max and a cooker oven 2.5 kW element all from eBay ..... all generic parts from standard domestic ovens (see pics.). I put the thermostats temperature sensing bulb inside the oil gallery of the crankcases in the 'oven'.
Like all good bakers I was up at the crack of dawn getting the oven on ;D Actually I did it early as the missus was in bed and the slightest whiff of solvent type paint fumes is bad for her asthma. In fact there was very little smell as there was a fair wind blowing but I have to be mega careful.
Good thing is, once I have finished baking all of my parts, I can bung the bricks back behind the shed and the heating bits fit inside a shoebox for next time.
There is a great debate on all of the forums about the type of paint/baking the paint on crankcases for petrol resistance. Some bake, some don't. I don't really know if I am honest... I just went with the type of paint and baking temperature that others have recommended on here and other forums. It's one of those tasks that if you didn't do it you may have a nagging doubt. But if someone said b*llocks Ash .. I ride my bikes in anger and I will let the running engine temperature do the curing .. I wouldn't argue with them.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 21, 2020, 07:33:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie_ZL2SHqFI
Post by: Allington (Steve) on April 21, 2020, 08:30:40 AM
Post by: Oggie400F on April 21, 2020, 10:43:04 AM
Just a few of questions
Are they ordinary house bricks or oven bricks (is there a difference)?
Could you do a simple wiring diagram for us non-electrical engineer types?
How is the engine case supported, I assume not directly on top of the element?
This would be a good solution for myself, and many others I suspect, to prevent major upset with, and personal injury from, our wives or girlfriends or partners. :D
Many thanks
Ian
EDIT:
I think I've answered two of my questions by looking more closely at the pictures.
House Bricks and Case is supported on the aluminium box section therefore will sit above the heating element.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 21, 2020, 11:36:00 AM
Circuit as below
Someone mentioned element would burn out if not using fan...mine seems to have run for about 4 hours and OK without a fan plus grill elements don't have fan, so maybe a grill element may be better if not using fan. Whatever ... you need about 2.5 to 3kW (just capable of being run on a 13A socket). I just really used what I had. Top was a sheet of tiling cement board .. not asbestos based !
[attachimg=1]
WARNING !! if anyone builds a similar setup it's best to house the thermostat in a sealed plastic electrics box. Also if your house doesn't have an RCD earth leakage breaker type fuse box (Consumer Unit) then use an additional plug type RCD for safety. Also connect and earth cable to to any metal parts.
Post by: Oggie400F on April 21, 2020, 03:50:56 PM
Hi Ian ... yea you sussed correctly .... house bricks .. sitting on aluminium extrusion (could use old oven wire shelf though)
Circuit as below
Someone mentioned element would burn out if not using fan...mine seems to have run for about 4 hours and OK without a fan plus grill elements don't have fan, so maybe a grill element may be better if not using fan. Whatever ... you need about 2.5 to 3kW (just capable of being run on a 13A socket). I just really used what I had. Top was a sheet of tiling cement board .. not asbestos based !
(Attachment Link)
WARNING !! if anyone builds a similar setup it's best to house the thermostat in a sealed plastic electrics box. Also if your house doesn't have an RCD earth leakage breaker type fuse box (Consumer Unit) then use an additional plug type RCD for safety. Also connect and earth cable to to any metal parts.
Thanks Ash
I'll order the element and thermostat and give it a whirl.
Can you send links to the items you bought please?
Also regarding the image, just to clarify, Is the Thermostat the thermostatic controller and is the Pilot Light the capillary bulb you placed in the oil gallery or am I completely wrong?
Ian
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 21, 2020, 06:00:14 PM
Hi Ian ... yea you sussed correctly .... house bricks .. sitting on aluminium extrusion (could use old oven wire shelf though)
Circuit as below
Someone mentioned element would burn out if not using fan...mine seems to have run for about 4 hours and OK without a fan plus grill elements don't have fan, so maybe a grill element may be better if not using fan. Whatever ... you need about 2.5 to 3kW (just capable of being run on a 13A socket). I just really used what I had. Top was a sheet of tiling cement board .. not asbestos based !
(Attachment Link)
WARNING !! if anyone builds a similar setup it's best to house the thermostat in a sealed plastic electrics box. Also if your house doesn't have an RCD earth leakage breaker type fuse box (Consumer Unit) then use an additional plug type RCD for safety. Also connect and earth cable to to any metal parts.
Thanks Ash
I'll order the element and thermostat and give it a whirl.
Can you send links to the items you bought please?
Also regarding the image, just to clarify, Is the Thermostat the thermostatic controller and is the Pilot Light the capillary bulb you placed in the oil gallery or am I completely wrong?
Ian
Capilliary bulb is part of the thermostat ..the pilot light is just a neon lamp to show you that the element is switched on or off and not entirely necessary.
I got my heating element in an auction one off for £2 but this one is the same and up for an offer and there is also a link to my style of thermostat.
******** Please don't harm yourself !! ************
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hotpoint-Oven-Heating-Element-2-5KW-Circular-C00199665-Ariston-Creda-Cannon/174238601028?hash=item28916e0f44:g:ASAAAOSws4NeheIA
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Oven-Knob-Style-Thermostat-Disjunctor-Temperature-Control-Switch/164129581004?hash=item2636e2a7cc:m:mybV1kpohzZrT8d7qF_irvw
Post by: Oggie400F on April 21, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
Parts are on order. I promise I will be careful and will not hold you or anyone else responsible for any outcome.
Believe me I would come to much more harm if I tried to use our kitchen oven again! ;D
Post by: Oggie400F on April 21, 2020, 10:28:34 PM
Thanks for the clarification Ash.
Parts are on order. I promise I will be careful and will not hold you or anyone else responsible for any outcome.
Believe me I would come to much more harm if I tried to use our kitchen oven again! ;D
EDIT.
Everything ordered bar the cable to connect from my controller box to the heating element.
I assume that this cable needs to be heat resistant. If so what spec do I need?
Cheers Ash. Hopefully this is the last question. 🤞
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 21, 2020, 10:34:33 PM
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 10:02:40 AM
Post by: taysidedragon on April 22, 2020, 10:56:58 AM
Paint was unbaked, about 12 months from painting and engine had done about 500 miles.
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 11:01:49 AM
Post by: Trigger on April 22, 2020, 11:06:58 AM
Well what a bunch of little liars at Simonize. On their say so I haven't baked the black bomber cases. Just have to hope the engine heat does the job. I specifically asked them the question as the cases would be stood for months before use. Bugger.
It tells you how to cure and to cure on the can ;)
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 11:59:12 AM
Post by: bobv7 on April 22, 2020, 12:40:47 PM
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 22, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
I haven't checked your Bomber rebuild but the crankcases on the 450 (like CB250/350K also) were only painted on the top half. Lower half was bare alloy. I guess it was the same with the K1 etc and CL's but not sure. (JamesH and MrDavo will know)
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 02:50:50 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 22, 2020, 03:23:25 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/8f9af3acb86521272c32716f2083c841.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/0ac6f078dafba95b5700b08fb84b024d.jpg)
Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 22, 2020, 03:53:00 PM
Bet that looks good on the Mongrel, throw your paint away Ash.Yea, it looks OK being two tone on Millie Roy but I would be bloody pissed off if it were on a stock bike. I'm pleased we used my bike to trial it on for the customer and not one of our 'proper' bikes.
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 22, 2020, 04:16:04 PM
Simoniz VHT on the left and the American paint on the right. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eb32b26207c6500aae6ce621a3daa022.jpg)
Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 22, 2020, 04:36:53 PM
Ask RGP750 what he used on his prize winning CB750K0 ?
I deliberately didn't initially mention the paint I am using as I knew it would cause controversy ;D but there ya go .. Horses for courses I guess.
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 04:41:58 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 22, 2020, 05:12:17 PM
Not telling you what to do at all Ash. Just light hearted comment, your bike to do with as you wish. I'm sure you have checked it out as your usually pretty thorough.
Threw a curved ball in there deliberately Roy as I didn't state the actual brand or colour shade I am using plus I am doing the barrels and head etc in a completely different paint from Germany that a guy on the Sandacast forum used and has run his engine in anger for several years (bl**dy expensive paint though).
Post by: royhall on April 22, 2020, 06:07:02 PM
This picture shows the difference betterI know it's no use to the purists but that bronze colour looks fantastic, ideal on a special. What make did you use Julie, just so the rest of us can avoid it.
Simoniz VHT on the left and the American paint on the right. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eb32b26207c6500aae6ce621a3daa022.jpg)
Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 22, 2020, 06:35:50 PM
It's Dupli-colour Engine Enamel with Ceramic Resins Roy.This picture shows the difference betterI know it's no use to the purists but that bronze colour looks fantastic, ideal on a special. What make did you use Julie, just so the rest of us can avoid it.
Simoniz VHT on the left and the American paint on the right. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eb32b26207c6500aae6ce621a3daa022.jpg)
Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk
I like the colour too, on a Mongrel but if I were to tell the truth I would prefer that all my engine was all the same colour but it was a good bike to trial it on.
The Simoniz has a maximum heat range protection up to 800°c where the Dupli-colour only protects up to 288°c. But, its really designed for car engines, not air cooled motorcycles with cooling fins. We found that the fins actually get that hot on the bikes that the Dupli-colour chips off where the Simoniz VHT just stays on perfectly.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on April 23, 2020, 08:17:00 AM
This mornings bake off challenge was my Oct 1969 CB750 crankcases ... the 'oven' was a tad too small but six bricks and 5 minutes later we are up and running again. So it's a truly 'modular' oven. Next up are my '67 Bomber cases (well the top one as the bottom half was never painted)
I was hoping that with this thread, rather than drifting off into a paint preference discussion, I would be have been challenged. "What about health and safety though Ash".
I must admit I work with electrics / electronics all of the time and my missus is always telling me I am too complacent .. and she is right to a large extent.
So please, please.... if you make one of these ovens, or similar with your own modifications.... be really careful. Here are a few tips but I would really appreciate others chipping in with do's and don'ts regarding safety.
1) Use a mains supply protected by an RCD earth leakage protection device. If your house electrics consumer unit doesn't have this feature .... then buy a plug in one from the likes of Screwfix... always best to own one anyway if you are using 240v mains power tools outside and they are fairly cheap nowadays.
2) Use an extension lead that is capable of carrying the full 13A of a domestic mains outlet and .. very important FULLY extend the cable otherwise if left coiled it will overheat on the reel ! A lot of cheapo extensions are only 10A maximum current rated, which is borderline for a 2.5kW load.
3) Fit the thermostat (and indicator if you choose to use one) in a suitable enclosure and if it's metal then connect the earth wire of the plug to it.
4) Connect an earth wire to any exposed metal.
5) Make sure the cooker element exposed terminals are covered with some heat resisting sleeving (usually glass woven or silicone ) If you can't find any PM me.
6) Make sure you stand the heating element well off the floor so that the connections are above the floor by at least 1".
7) Always use in dry weather or better still assemble everything in a garage (not an option for me as my garage is linked to my house and the fumes always find their way into the house).
8 ) Connect the element to outside of the oven with heat resisting cable (usually glass woven or silicone insulated) capable of carrying 13 A .. loads of places on eBay sell it cheap.. just Google 'oven cable'or 'heat resisting' cable. If in doubt PM me.
9) When inspecting the paintwork .. switch the mains off first at the mains outlet. Same when you are finished baking before taking the parts out.
10) Use the oven when kids and pets are not around (e.g. get up like a true baker at the crack of dawn).
11) If you have the storage space and remote location from the house, just buy an old kitchen oven secondhand for next to nothing and use that.
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on April 23, 2020, 09:03:45 AM
Item 2 - it is really important to fully extend any cable that is under significant load. If you leave it coiled on the drum it will overheat and ultimately melt.
Trust me on this
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 23, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
Yes Ken, I had to force him in to submission to fit non standard bits to this bike, my 550 Mongrel. I was on a budget but he wasn't happy using non standard fixings and I haven't heard the last of it 😁😁😁😁.This picture shows the difference better
Simoniz VHT on the left and the American paint on the right. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eb32b26207c6500aae6ce621a3daa022.jpg)
Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk
OMG don't tell me Graham actually used allen bolts on a Honda engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sacrilege ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 26, 2020, 08:42:08 AM
They are just the standard alloy tappet caps Ken that Graham polished.
Julie, did you polish the tappet covers or get them chromed?
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 26, 2020, 03:39:23 PM
Mention it to Graham Ken, I'm sure he has a box here with at least 100 original tappet caps in.... Maybe more 🤔🤔🤔They are just the standard alloy tappet caps Ken that Graham polished.
Julie, did you polish the tappet covers or get them chromed?
Ta Julie, I had my old ones chromed but they won't do alloy these days generally. I might just buy some new ones and polish the hell out of them then ;D ;D
Post by: cantarauk on October 06, 2020, 09:38:15 PM
Will test on oil pan first and see how I get on.