Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: royhall on February 19, 2018, 05:56:43 PM
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Has anybody any experience with the Dyna-S system. In this case it's for a Suzuki GS1000 not a Honda but looking at the instructions they are all the same. I have been trying to get the timing right with new pattern points but it just will not time correctly across both sides. It's probably crap points causing the trouble but I am not going to pay £33 a side for genuine Suzuki so I think it's time to change to electronic. Just wanted to know what the best system for GS1000 was before I spend the hard earned. Cheers.
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Roy I have a ’79 GS1000 that came with a Dyna ignition fitted (std coils I think). Runs very nicely indeed...
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Cheers James I think I will go for it. Does your GS have any of the "cam end float knock" issues at idle. Problems not there when the engines cold and goes away above 1800 rpm. I'm told by a few people it's normal and harmless. But I don't like it and am searching for a cure if you know anything about it. Cheers..
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Hi Roy, i have the Dyna-s on my 78 Z1000 and i can highly recommend them, the cam end float knock is fine, my thou has it, not as bad as when i first got it as i changed a cam cap that had less wear laterally, it is just a characteristic foible of them, a friend of mine has had his Wes Cooley rep from new and has been accustomed to the tick for many years.
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That's good to know, thanks Kev.
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Fitted one on my 400four. I can recommend it as it has improved starting and going up a steep hill by me.
Also,there's no need to fit an extra ignition unit somewhere.
A tip though is to threadlock the pickup coils securely as I had one work loose.
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Going back to the previous post about the Suzuki cam end float problem, I found this online. Very interesting write up. I may give it a go if the knock proves too much to live with. Hope it's of use to someone else as well.
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Seems quite a detailed explanation Roy, advanced fettling to get the clearance needed. Interesting the bit about two of the cam lobes being off centre to the cam buckets, guess it's trying to move the cam in an arc as the lobe attempts to rotate the follower bucket resulting in duress on the thrust faces.
You get something similar on V8 Rover engines. The cams are ground with a scew on the lobes to intentionally rotate the follower and distribute wear evenly, this pushes the cam into moving. http://www.v8tuner.co.uk/product.php?id=638 as link they put a ptfe button into front of cam to stop it "walking" back and forth.
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Another thing that can give the tick is the cam chain guide rollers, these have also been known to go from side to side creating the noise.
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This sound is a very pronounced knock. As per description it only does it at tickover engine hot, then disappears at 2k revs. Does it every few seconds. Am leaving it for now as it's normal will see how it progresses. The write up was done on a GS850 so the cam offset may be different on the 1000.
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Just been recommended to change my engine oil on the Suzuki GS1000 from standard 10W-40 (diesel) to HDEO 15W-40. I'm told it stops the cam shaft end float issue. Anybody know what this oil is and where to get it, and is it okay with the clutch and gearbox. Cheers.
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I think it's a term (heavy duty engine oil) HDEO used collectively for petrol derived light diesel engines, in other words car and light commercial diesels.
Bigger commercial stuff had specific oils that didn't match usage in much smaller engines as they came more into general car use. So petrol type oils where effectively modified to cope with extra loading. Making HDEO categorised oils. So looks like you are already there in my view.
Curiously, after reading your thrust mod post the other day, I was thinking if there could be any benefits to using a very specific oil type to help out.
Do you know what properties the person recommending to you is after? Or is it just a general feeling of more protection?
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Just general advice from the old guy that does my bike MOT's. He's been in the trade 50+ years and reckons changing to the 15W-40 calms down the Suzuki cam issue. He was talking about "heavy duty truck oil" whatever that means. I can understand the switch to a slightly heavier grade oil making things less noisy and it's within Suzuki's recommended grades ie 10W-40 to 20W-50. But never heard the term HDEO before, and cant seem to find any for sale. Maybe I should ask him where he gets it from. Got to be worth a try if I can find some.
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To be honest it would depend on how much lateral movement you already have, a heavier oil may just mask the problem and increased wear, if i had a one of the Suzukis i would do the modification, on my big zed the thrust surfaces are in the insides of the caps unlike the Suzuki which has them on the outside, i have to put up with mine, you however are a little more fortunate and can do more about it if need be.
A lot of truck oils now are model specific, some of these tips from the older fitters are not always best, sawdust in the gearboxes was always a favourite of the old boys.
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This one has very specific blend for highly loaded camshaft applications VW 505.01
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5W40-FULLY-SYNTHETIC-DIESEL-PD-ENGINE-MOTOR-OIL-5-LITRE-VW-AUDI-SEAT-505-01-/262014414928
Original spec for these motors stops at the lower end of 10w as mineral oils weren't generally available to get lower than that. This should exceed anything made then in most areas.
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Thanks guys. Sawdust in the gearbox, I had forgotten about those stunts. ;D Not too sure where i'm going with this to be honest. As the knock is only present when the engine is warmed up shouldn't I be going for a heavier oil not lighter to stop the knock. I've strayed into a subject here that I know absolutely nothing about. :-[
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Had another word with the MOT guy over a pint last night. This is the oil he's talking about, reasonable price as well. What's the verdict guys. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-German-Fuchs-Titan-HD-Universal-15w-40-Oil-5LTR-15w-40-/122808657692?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
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But is it wet clutch compatible?
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That is what used to be transfleet oil and is all i ever use, but i have still got 40 ltr of transfleet left!!
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That is what used to be transfleet oil and is all i ever use, but i have still got 40 ltr of transfleet left!!
So you reckon the Fuchs Titan oil is good with the clutches Bryan?
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All I can say is the Transfleet is fine and when i asked Silkolene now Fuchs they told me the Titan was the replacement, nowhere does it say it is synthetic so it should be OK. You can still get Tesco Mineral oil from petrol station forecourts but not the stores for some reason
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All I can say is the Transfleet is fine and when i asked Silkolene now Fuchs they told me the Titan was the replacement, nowhere does it say it is synthetic so it should be OK. You can still get Tesco Mineral oil from petrol station forecourts but not the stores for some reason
Thanks Bryan will give it a go. It's had a hone and new rings so will use use the 10w-40 oil thats in at the moment for a couple of hundred miles. I shall report back in Spring if this oil makes the cam knock go away.
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Just a quick update. The oil change did not make a scrap of difference to the cam knock situation. Going to whip the cam cover off and have a little look.
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That oil in the link is listed as Mineral - I used Fuchs Titan Unimax UltraMC 10W/40 in our old Jeep - trouble is its synthetic so could cause clutch issues.
Only thing I have used that has ever quitened an engine noise on an engine (Alfa Guiletta Sprint GT back in the 1960's) is Molybdenum Disuphide (Molyslip) it makes the oil more sticky - looks horid as it is black. It takes a good 15 minutes to circulate & coat everywhere - in reality hides the problem so I doubt that would not suit you Roy.
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The Fuchs Titan oil is fine with the clutch. I would be very reluctant to use a Molyslip type oil as that will cause clutch slip, if it was a dry clutch it would be going in right now. The cam end float on Suzuki GS is a very common problem and causes no engine damage long term, I was just trying to tone it down a bit.
I really don't like the idea of the so called repair in the above post. The reason the cap is stepped back from the cam is to allow the oil flow to lubricate the cam lobes as there are no drillings to do that job. On the "fix" you are making the end float bearing face continuous which then becomes pressure lubricated like a shell bearing and prevents end float, but it will starve the cam lobes of oil and eventually cause engine damage. I will have another look and check the cam chain pulley sideways action whilst I'm in there.
Shame really as it's the only problem on the bike. The thing is reliable, starts at the touch of the button, runs well and goes like stink, and also sounds awesome with the Delkevic 4 into 1.
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Same here with molyslip, view it as accumilative for clutch friction and should be avoided.
It'll be interesting to see what you can find regarding cam movement Roy when you have a look inside.
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Just a thought Roy, categorized as "GS cam end float" are you certain of that and have you tried loading transmission with is held on rear brake to observe if if changes at all when pulling slightly?
What I'm getting at is that it's assumed to be that stated reason, but is there certainty in that diagnosis that's floating about?
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You may be correct there. I shall try loading the engine and see if it stops.
The cam end float I have measured previously. It was 6 thou on the intake and 5 thou on the exhaust, roughly the same as the guy in the "fix" had measured. I measured this with the head removed and the camshafts just sitting in the head. I set up a DTI and whilst pushing the cam one way I zeroed the dial then took the reading pushing the other way. So the clearance is 2.5 to 3 thou per side. There are visible marks on the head surface where the cam has been running for 55,000 miles but you cannot feel any of them with a finger nail. I think that clearance is what Suzuki intended as when it heats up the steel cam will expand by more than the aluminium head. I would love to know what the clearance is meant to be but cannot find that information anywhere and nobody appears to know.
I think I may be looking for something else as I have just rebuilt the top end and it has been perfectly quite for 300 miles. The knock came on suddenly after a long hot run rather than a gradual increase. I used Graphogen compound on the cam bearing faces during the rebuild but I doubt any of that would still be in after 300 miles of hot running. The oil in it at present is Fuchs Titan 15W40. The clutch basket was rebuilt by Grumpy1260 with welded rivets (the usual Suzuki mod) so will check that is still tight, there was a new starter sprag clutch fitted so I will also check all that is still tight. I will take the cam cover off and re-check the shims as the valves were re-ground and the seats re-cut so they could have closed up. Also as mentioned earlier in the thread (although the GS1000 does not have tensioner wheels) I will have another look at all the cam chain parts (cam chain itself is new), plus the auto tensioner appears to be working okay.
Then after that I'm stuck. If I can get it quite enough I will part exchange it for a new 1200 Triumph Bonneville. Happy days.
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"I used Graphogen compound on the cam bearing faces during the rebuild but I doubt any of that would still be in after 300 miles of hot running. "
Had a bit of a think while wandering around today :)
That's really interesting. OK a speculative theory, the camshaft rotation of valve buckets I doubt they have used in that geometry as it requires thrust faces to resist. And so it must be running a non biased lobe to bucket geometry from original design with no attempt to turn the buckets for evening of wear characteristics.
But, and it's a big but, if through mileage it's created a wear pattern on one or more of the load faces such that it now tries to rotate that bucket, then the contact point initially of the cam as it comes onto the static face will now attempt to prescribe an arc in spinning the bucket (still with me?) Which will shunt crossways load onto the camshaft to give longitudinal travel "knock" just as it flicks the camshaft left or right.
This the graphogen may have prevented as that's what it's supposed to do. Now fully removed into the oil, including remnants in the surface texture, it has seen a rise in stiction just sufficient to flick the cam.
Testing;- put some more graphogen on each cam load site and run it again to see if it improves. Further action, inspect all the buckets for flatness to see if you can observe any discrepancy.
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I think I'm with that? The problem with the wear theory is that this is a shim over bucket design and all the shims are new giving a fresh flat face. I can easily check what wear is on the old shims that I took out. My first target when the top comes off is to check the new shims as there could be a faulty one not heat treated correctly or something. It will be a few weeks before I can open the engine up as I have house renovations to do now (on threat of castration if it doesn't happen). >:( >:(