Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: mickwinf on August 06, 2019, 05:15:09 PM
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fed up with rusty bits from the tank getting through to the carbs so decided to de rust (again) and use a tank liner. I have got the flowliner rust remover and the liner, has anyone used these products and did they work?
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I have never come across a tank liner that worked long time, they will fail in a year to two. ;)
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Best advice I can give: do NOT do it yourself but look for a known good company that knows how to do this. Ask around.
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Mine failed within months on my CB750, the only viable solution was a new tank.
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The liner on my GS1000 failed after one fill up.
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hmm interesting, i have used a liner before and it seemed to work ok but i didn't keep the bike for long. The problem is the rust returns a short time after being cleaned. I have not been able to ride my bike for weeks and had to remove carbs to clean them out, so what do i do?
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You could try running it with a tank of 100 to 1 two stroke oil mix to see if will prevent rust establishment in the tank.
Its not enough to make any significant difference to running the engine but may help out with corrosion.
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hmm interesting, i have used a liner before and it seemed to work ok but i didn't keep the bike for long. The problem is the rust returns a short time after being cleaned. I have not been able to ride my bike for weeks and had to remove carbs to clean them out, so what do i do?
I am going to try the hydrolysis method discussed on the internet a lot. My only twist is that I am going to make the electrode a piece of 6mm Bowden cable (316 stainless) and enclose in in the plastic netting you get to protect machine tools and parts. That way there will be metal exposed for electrolysis to take place but also an insulating barrier to prevent contact of the electrode with the metal of the tank. The flexibility of the electrode will allow you to 'snake' the assembly aound inside to parts not easily reached with a non-insulted electrode. Going to try it soon so I will keep you posted :)
BTW I agree with tank linings being decidedly dodgy and never used one .
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There's a place in Dorset that has good results with liners, will get the name when I get home tonight.
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These are the guys. Never used them myself so far but am considering sending the GS1000 tank when it's back from the welders. I have heard good reviews about them and I got the link from a recommendation. But as I say I have not used them personally yet. https://www.biketankrepair.co.uk/ (https://www.biketankrepair.co.uk/)
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A liner is temporary repair and a welded or brazed is a permanent job so, why try to put a liner in after :o
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I have lined many tanks and there are some points of attention:
If you line a tank make sure it is completely dry on the inside.
A tank which has been lined before will be very difficult to line again.
Often the new liner will react with the old resulting in lining failure.
After lining uncountable amount of tanks in the past only the ones with a previous liner still in them failed.
Lining is a way to extent the life of a tank for a couple of years.
How long exactly depends on the correct way of lining.
At the moment I have a BMW tank which has been lined in 1983 with lining still perfectly in place.
I do however strongly advise only to line if the tank is leaky.
If a tank is not leaky simply de-rust and fill it up with gasoline.
If you store the bike for a longer period make sure to replace the gasoline once a year.
The chemicals nowadays in gasoline attract water.
As soon as the gasoline 'turns' the tank will - even wenn completely filled up - start rusting.
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Any treatment of steel surfaces has risk attached to it.
When it was originally produced in a steel rolling mill, the final surface of steel sheet is effectively close to forged from being rolled to it's guage. That finish is reasonably resistant to corrosion and more so than interior structure.
Once that surface refinement has been compromised it's effectively been more prepared to corrode. That would include corrosion, acid dipping, electrolysis etc. From an ongoing perspective you are really on the back foot to prevent more corrosion taking place, there's not an easy answer.
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I have good results by draining the fuel off and filling with diesel for storage ;)
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I have good results by draining the fuel off and filling with diesel for storage ;)
Agree that some sort of oil may be easiest way rather than more invasive method.
It may be worth weak two stroke mix for low usage if they are not drained down, worth an assessment maybe?
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Thanks Menno. Just the other day my neighbour asked me if I could help derusting his Puch 50cc Moped (1964) tank. Maybe you can give some advice on de-rusting. I once threw a handful of balancer leads in the empty tank and shook it for a couple of minutes, hoping the lead would remove the rust and maybe even coat the surface with some soft lead in the process. I rinsed the tank with diesel. Is what we Dutch call petroleum better? Make sure you wash your hands afterwards!
As for modern fuels, I'm not so hysterical as some are on the international SOHC site. To some extent ethanol containing gasoline is even better as it binds water where conventional gas inevitably will have a puddle of water at the bottom of the tank. It's only when the ethanol containing fuel starts separating, there will be a (serious) problem. Its effect on elastomers is another story. I invite you to read the attached text (it's in German which will not be a problem for you, I guess). You may find it an interesting read. Years ago I have translated it in English and published it over the net.
Our motorcycle tanks are even more vulnerable to rusting, located as they are over a hot engine that inevitably cools down, accelerating the condensation. Being exposed to direct sunrays doesn't help either. There's no escaping this condensation and all our CB tanks (no exception) will suffer some degree of rusting. The article below was published in 2011. Feel free to comment if there have been new developments.
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so now i don't know what to do, i need to de-rust again but have done it previously and the rust came back almost immediately. I cant ride my bike as is as carbs keep blocking up. Will try the flowliner rust remover at weekend and see what happens.
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I often think old school repairs are often the easiest and the best depending on what the outcome you require. Many petrol tanks can be repaired very successfully on the bottom using a solder repair and will not cause any distortion or damage to the original paintwork on the top of a tank. Even large areas full of pinholes can have thin copper patches soldered on. But they must be done correctly. No good trying with your average electric soldering iron, you need a big copper one able to carry enough heat to do it successfully.
This method often crops up on the welding forums as young welders just don't know how to do it.
Remember early petrol tanks were often riveted and then sealed with solder long before the brazing and welding of petrol tanks.
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Well Mick, what did you do that made your tank started rusting immediatly again?
Best trick is what Trigger said as well: as soon as you have emptied the tank rinse it with diesel.
The diesel will stick to the steel preventing rust.
After you emptied the tank completely the inside will have a thin layer of diesel preventing rust.
You can safely fill the tank up with gasoline and ride immediately.
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so now i don't know what to do, i need to de-rust again but have done it previously and the rust came back almost immediately. I cant ride my bike as is as carbs keep blocking up. Will try the flowliner rust remover at weekend and see what happens.
mick if you want to borrow the k3 tank while you get yours sorted it’s just sat in the garage
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If you are using acid of any type to clean, make a final rinse with bicarbonate of soda to neutralise the interior, then oil/diesel of some type to protect.
Don't mix the two in any quantity, just a mild wash out after the cleaner solution has been emptied completely.
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If you are using acid of any type to clean, make a final rinse with bicarbonate of soda to neutralise the interior, then oil/diesel of some type to protect.
Don't mix the two in any quantity, just a mild wash out after the cleaner solution has been emptied completely.
I guess most tank sealer de-rust solutions will be orthophosphoric acid based which leave a phosphate coating on the steel. Hydrochloric etc. are a totally different matter ... surface will flash rust in no time.
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the stuff i used before was an acid based rust remover which did say on the bottle that it prevented rust re-forming but it did not! This flowliner product comes in crystal form and claims to be bio degradable and doesn't mention any acid content. The tank is sound and does not leak at the moment so will try this new product and swill with diesel as Graham suggests then report back.
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I followed this method a few years ago and no issues afterwards. Relatively cheap and available products. Bit of a faff on, but as I say, no issues since doing it.
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the stuff i used before was an acid based rust remover which did say on the bottle that it prevented rust re-forming but it did not! This flowliner product comes in crystal form and claims to be bio degradable and doesn't mention any acid content. The tank is sound and does not leak at the moment so will try this new product and swill with diesel as Graham suggests then report back.
It's probably something like Deox-c by Bilt Hamber
https://www.bilthamber.com/deox-c
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I followed this method a few years ago and no issues afterwards. Relatively cheap and available products. Bit of a faff on, but as I say, no issues since doing it.
Files coming up as empty Jon ... anyone else had any success?
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I followed this method a few years ago and no issues afterwards. Relatively cheap and available products. Bit of a faff on, but as I say, no issues since doing it.
Files coming up as empty Jon ... anyone else had any success?
Should be good now :-)
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I followed this method a few years ago and no issues afterwards. Relatively cheap and available products. Bit of a faff on, but as I say, no issues since doing it.
Files coming up as empty Jon ... anyone else had any success?
Should be good now :-)
Yes fine now Jon... interesting article and I like the Caustic soda/Hydrochloric and then phosphoric process ... seems very logical to me. My own take on that method, which is extremely dangerous, is to tip the caustic soda granules (1kg = £1 at the pound shops) into the tank and then put a hose into the top so that you can pour in nearly boiling water at a safe distance and then stand back and watch the fun begin. That method totally stripped the old liner from my 500/4 tank because there was such extreme gassing and heat from the violent exotherm ..... BTW I am not recommending this method as it is extremely dodgy, contravenes every health and safely rule and is downright blo**dy dangerous.
I still also want to try hydrolysis with sodium carbonate (washing soda) solution as the electrolyte .... Anyone else tried that method?
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so cleaned and degreased the tank today and have filled the tank with the flowliner de-rust solution, so will leave 24 hours and check
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So there I was. Petrol tank with assorted M10 and M12 fasteners shaking the rust off. Then twice as long to get the nuts and bolts out. Then some acid descaler, followed by a rinse out. I'm thinking....Instead of poncing about with dubious tank lining goo that is unreliable, why not copper plate the inside of the tank.
All it would take is copper sulphate, some copper tubing and some volts from the battery.
Or am I over simplifying it?
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I also tried the bolts method and had a heck of a job getting them out as the 550 tank has a well around the filler to make it harder. Had a quick look tonight and the rust seems to be going so will empty it tomorrow and check.
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I have a rebuilt 1980 RD350LC sitting at home with a completely buggered tank. Someone has put a liner in it at some point in its life and now bits are peeling off and clogging everything up.
Apparently Acetone is good a dissolving tank liners but im worried about what it may do to the paint.
My first attempt this week is to wash it out then fill it with a bit of water and a few nuts and bolts. Then completely wrap the tank in bubblewrap, foam etc and chuck it in my cement mixer for an hour.
One word about Caustic Soda and the like, never add water to it. Always add it to water.
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Yes, getting the nuts and bolts out took about half an hour of shaking, bending my fingers to impossible shapes and a magnetic pick up stick. Maybe a length of chain on a wire would be better.
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Easy to get the bolts out, it is called a strong magnet. Only use steel short thread bolts and you will find that the threads pick up all the crap ;) ;)
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I shouldn't have used A2 stainless. 😃
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Fuel filters help a great deal. I know they don't look great but they are effective.
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Easy to get the bolts out, it is called a strong magnet. Only use steel short thread bolts and you will find that the threads pick up all the crap ;) ;)
Trig, please what do you mean by "short thread bolts"? Can you be more specific - hear type, thread length...
I cannot really imagine shaking - in hand it will be crazy. Putting in conctete mixer too risky was thinking about washmashine but on modern ones you cannot force drum on low speed ..
My 550 has liner inside and starts to degrade strongly
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Easy to get the bolts out, it is called a strong magnet. Only use steel short thread bolts and you will find that the threads pick up all the crap ;) ;)
Trig, please what do you mean by "short thread bolts"? Can you be more specific - hear type, thread length...
I cannot really imagine shaking - in hand it will be crazy. Putting in conctete mixer too risky was thinking about washmashine but on modern ones you cannot force drum on low speed ..
My 550 has liner inside and starts to degrade strongly
Tumble drier springs to mind ... wrap tank in a soft blanket/duvet
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A tumble dryer would be better than a washing machine.
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Hm. I have no dryer.
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I'm not allowed near the appliances since the missus found a cylinder head in the dishwasher :-[
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Ok the flowliner biorust stuff seems to have worked well, it comes as crystals which you mix with water, the size i got made up to 20 litres of solution which they claim to be eco friendly and to be fair it does not smell too bad or give off any bad fumes. I filled the tank to the brim and left it soaking until the following day, and when i looked it looked much cleaner so i altered the angle of the tank to make sure every part was covered and left it overnight. Today i drained it into a large plastic container and then decanted it into 5ltr bottles as it can be used again until it turns black. On inspection with a torch it looks very clean metal with no rust so i dried it out using a hot air gun and then swilled out with diesel. checked again and there are some loose bits still in there so will keep rinsing until its completely clean. I hope this works!
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If you dry it completely you can use a vacuum cleaner to suck up any loose bits.
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When I cleaned my tank out I used a long piece of chain with some nuts tywrapped to the links, this worked quite well but did take a few tries to get to a point where no more rust was coming out. I then flushed the tank out with petrol a few times, then once with diesel.
I put a new petcock on the tank and put a fuel filter inline. I only changed the tank in the end because the original had lots of dents and I couldn't get them all removed before a respray.
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Sorry, forgot to mention I had a rod through the centre of the chain which stopped it dropping into the tank. When I put the chain into the tank I put it in so that each end was either side of the inner hump of the tank.
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I'm not allowed near the appliances since the missus found a cylinder head in the dishwasher :-[
Bike bits in the oven filling the house with oily smoke has always gone down a treat with the wife.
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My Mrs is used to me using the dishwasher as a parts washer, curing painted parts in the oven and washing paint rollers in the washing machine. It's me that fixes these appliances anyway.
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fed up now, i have just checked the tank an it was starting to rust again! i had rinsed it with diesel but still rusting. So i cleaned it out again and currently is soaking in the de rusting fluid.
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For what it's worth.
I have a Tdr250. The tanks of which are notoriously thin.
So I had my tank Chemically stripped.
Then had the inside Nickel plated.
No rust!
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You should finish off with orthophoshoric acid solution .. The phosphate coating produced prevents flash rusting. I think a lot of tank prep. solutions sold by liner companies include this for that reason
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Ash what concentration would you recommend as i have seen it advertised from 30% to 85%. Is more better?
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Ash what concentration would you recommend as i have seen it advertised from 30% to 85%. Is more better?
I would think 30% would be easily strong enough Mick
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thanks Ash will try some. For the moment i have cleaned it out again and swilled with diesel and oil to see what happens.
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this is getting stupid now, yesterday i cleaned and de rusted and was immaculate, left it overnight with diesel mixed with oil. Today it is very rusty again, so think i will clean again then use the tank liner otherwise i will never get to ride the damn bike.
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Hard to believe it rust again after flushing with diesel and oil! Do you store it in dry area?
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Just how deep / thick is this rust Mick?. If the chemicals you have used have removed ALL the rust, there is no way more will form if you put diesel or oil in that tank and swill it around.....its an impossibility.
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Julie thats why its so frustrating! Its surface rust that forms, mostly on the sides where the diesel runs off. Its hard to take a photo.
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Julie thats why its so frustrating! Its surface rust that forms, mostly on the sides where the diesel runs off. Its hard to take a photo.
It must be very frustrating Mick. How about filling the tank completely with diesel/ oil. Thinking about it though, anything oil based should stick to the sides, not run off it. It almost sounds like there is something else on the inside of the tank, like a film or coating or something 🤔🤔
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The tank has been washes out with detergant and shaken with nuts and bolts in it then rinsed with water.then de-rusted with flowliner which leaves the metal completely clean and rust free. The thing is, even if the diesel prevents rust while its being stored but when in use the diesel will get washed off then it will go rusty again especially as the bike does not get much use.
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Mick...I take it you are rinsing the tank out with de ionized water....not tap water 🤔🤔🤔
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hi Julie, the initial cleaning was done with tap water, then after the de rusting the instructions say to allow to dry ( i used a hot air gun and compressed air ) and that the product protects from further rusting, haha. Why should i use de-ionised water?
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Tap water reacts with the ions in it which causes corrosion. De ionized water has had the ions removed and is therefore a lot less corrosive than tap water......That, by the way is the 100% knowledge of ions in water 😀😀😀 🤣🤣🤣
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You'll never get your sheets flat with an ion ;D
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You'll never get your sheets flat with an ion ;D
That is sad Nigel ::) ::) ::) ::)
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It's a fair cop Julie.
I used to look after millions of ions in commercial film processing with ion exchange columns etc. Industry jokes like that I'm afraid, and not letting all the dark escape out of the darkroom, oh what a laugh we had ;D
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Cant understand it
Got me an i phone and the boy an i pad but my wife complained about the i ron
Slinks away slowly!
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It's the chlorine in tap water that's the main problem, but the free ions in tap water do react with metals and form oxides on the surface of the metal. Chlorine been very corrosive is removed in a carbon bed before the water is run through the resin beds to make deionised water, So a double plus with deionised water, no chlorine and far far fewer ions. Bulk produced deionised water does still have a few ions in it.
Chlorine will evaporate out of tap water if left in a open container for a good week.
Mouthwash is made with deionised water and I maintained the 10m3ph deioniser for over 10 years and that's a lot of deionised water at the factory I worked at. ;D
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I can't understand why you would want to flush out any recently cleaned metal part with any type of water, that's just asking for trouble. I have always cleaned out my tanks with parrafin, is it something about the cleaner being used that specifically requires a water flush? If i'm storing the tank for an extended time I usually put 0.5lts of vegetable cooking oil in and give it a good swish around then empty the excess. I use cooking oil as it's very thin and clings to the sides of the tank. It's always worked for me, in fact I have a spare 750F2 tank thats been sitting after a clean out for 5 years and it's still spotless.
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just to clarify after the de-rust process the instructions don't say to rinse out, just to drain and dry so that's what i have done. The product is supposed to stop re rusting but does not, nor does filling with diesel or oil seem to stop it!
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so last try before i use the liner, i have received the phosphoric acid as recommended by Ash so will try when i have a little time.
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It sounds counterintuitive to cause corrosion to prevent it corroding, but that's exactly what anodized aluminium has been through. Short controlled corrosion buildup which afterwards is resistant to oxidisation.
Be interesting to hear the outcome, hopefully it'll give a positive result.
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here are some pic of inside of tank tonight showing the rust that formed even though i put diesel and oil in it after de-rusting, it happened overnight.
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now after about 90mins in the bio rust, will rinse out then use the phosphoric acid, any tips on using it anyone?
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now after about 90mins in the bio rust, will rinse out then use the phosphoric acid, any tips on using it anyone?
See Stage 3, page 4 on attached procedure in reply #23 on this thread
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ok some good news, after a soak in the phosphoric acid i drained the excess and left it overnight. It did not rust but did leave some black deposits which apparently is a conversion of any remaining rust. Then i swilled it out with the acid again which left it clean, so following the advice on the real bike post earlier i washed it out with water (tap water sorry Julie!) and then dried it thoroughly with a hot air gun then swilled with diesel. put it back on bike and went for a short ride, and it does seem to be running well. Thanks to all the advice especially Ash for the suggestion of the phosphoric acid.