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SOHC.co.uk Forums => Anorak's Corner => Topic started by: AshimotoK0 on November 10, 2021, 10:02:37 AM

Title: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 10, 2021, 10:02:37 AM
Just building a bit of kit to test out Honda condensers. (using a scrap 12v ->400v DC generator ) . I have a decent Fluke meter to test the capacitance accurately  but the Service Tester applied a high voltage of several hundred volts in order to check for dielectric insulation breakdown at high voltage. Does anyone know the voltage that the Service Tester generated/applied to the condenser under test? I suspect about 400v DC but I don't want to trash perfectly good condensers by overdoing it.

I think Oddjob used to give his apprentices electric shocks using that bit of kit, so maybe he's my man. Or if anyone has a copy of the service tester manual it may tell you in that. I suspect a lot of Honda capacitors are binned when there is nowt wrong with them ..only to be replaced by pattern parts such as  Daiichi and the like, which are sh*te.

UPDATE : Found these manual scans. Looks like the 70's tester used an electro-mechanical  vibrator to generate the high voltage ( like car valve radios used in the 1950's) ... I am using a solid-state inverter.

 However, I suspect that the tester applied voltage at a frequency of 60hz....  reading the JIS spec. for condenser testing.

Also found the instructions for use in the CB450K0 Black Bomber shop manual. If anyone wants to gen. themselves up on vintage Honda electrics then read the section on electrics in the BB manual  ;D  Link below:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/typ5a2r2mjaxtvs/CB450%20K0%20BLACK%20BOMBER%20SHOP%20MANUAL%20.pdf?dl=0

[attachimg=4]

Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 10, 2021, 10:38:48 PM
Got the (very serious) boys on the 'Amateur Radio'  forum analysing the schematic.

Think I am going to build a high voltage generator (12v _>400v inverter and switch that at a frequency akin to the max engine speed using a high voltage ignition transistor, whilst heating the metal can of the condenser to a typical 'in service' temperature... as per the 1966 J.I.S. standard .... described in the 1966 Honda Shop manual for the 'Black Bomber' CB450K0. It will be interesting to see how a brand new Daiichi condenser fairs when subjected to this test. As Thin Lizzie would sing .. they have a Bad Reputation  ;D
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 11, 2021, 12:59:44 PM
Wow .... just checked and the price each for a genuine condenser for a CB400F is just over £50
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Bryanj on November 11, 2021, 01:33:00 PM
Ash you can still get the comlete points plate with everything on from your local dealer for just over £100
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 17, 2021, 09:23:04 AM
Got an absolutely fantastic response from the VintageRadio forum on this topic.

Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuff as there seems to be very little discussion.

Anyway, moving on,  I bought a high voltage  insulation tester to 'weed' out condensers , before I build a pukka JIS spec.  tester.

Interestingly, I took a dual capacitor from a Honda twin and a NOS similar one.
Testing the capacitor at elevated temperature, akin to what you get in service, the capacitance was bang on the correct value given by Honda on both the old and the NOS parts.

Also testing the the insulation firstly at 250v, then 500v, then 1000v,  on a single 'static'  test, the insulation was fine on both the used one (Genuine part .. taken from a 1973 bike) and on the NOS one. I also tested a NOS electronic component 'wire ended' one of similar capacitance and voltage spec.

However, there is a 'continuous' test mode on the new tester I bought and when tested on this function (it repeatedly applies the voltage), the used one started displaying a value of a couple of megOhms leakage, whereas the NOS part and the 'reference' capacitor didn't.

So I guess the used condenser is leaky, dynamically and explains why the owner of the bike was reporting excessive arcing at the points, even though on a static test the capacitor tested out fine.

My next 'experiment' is to dig out a brand new Daiichi pattern one and put it through it's paces. This brand has a very bad press but is the pattern part sold by lot's of reputable parts suppliers including David Silvers.
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on November 17, 2021, 11:06:26 AM
Just because we don’t reply doesn’t mean we don’t read them Ash.

As an ex electronic engineer I get most of what you post.

I haven’t actively practised electronic design/test since the mid 80s though…


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Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: taysidedragon on November 17, 2021, 11:29:31 AM
Hi Ash. I post about things I know about, but deep electrickery is out of my league. I'm more of a mechanical, steam-powered kind of dinosaur.   ;D
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Bryanj on November 17, 2021, 04:19:13 PM
I read your posts carefully Ash and you are so methodical and thourough there is rarely anything to add.ihave used theDaichi arts for years and reading Mark Paris on our sister forum it seems thateven they have been "pirated" in another country and it is these that are failing
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 17, 2021, 04:35:18 PM
The Daiichi ones I have, I bought new from Silvers about ten years ago Bryan
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 17, 2021, 07:52:37 PM
Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuffas there seems to be very little discussion.

I have to read your posts several times and that's with breaks to Google words you use, then re read to get the gist , I've stumbled into wiring this year doing 'Chewy' for the Long Haired General so what you write I find terribly interesting. What you post is so in depth and way beyond anything I can imagine, like others have said, what could I possibly add? Please dont stop posting them mate but as long as you dont mind me sitting quietly in awe and not commenting?
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Sesman on November 18, 2021, 08:25:12 AM
I read your posts with great interest Ash, but it’s a very niche subject and probably why you received a good response from the radio folks. I’ll wager your DC testing of capacitors/ condensers is of interest to the majority on the forum, especially your comparative testing on OEM and aftermarket items. Original capacitors are so expensive, ridiculously so and any effort to find a serviceable and economic alternative is deeply appreciated. As for dv/dt, mean voltage, peak voltage, ripple, temperature, farrads, di/dt, construction, dielectric properties etc it’s a new language to some. Keep it coming as I for one need the educational insights.
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Bryanj on November 18, 2021, 08:50:04 AM
Ash, the points and condensers i bought were a job lot from Hy Level by a dealer friend who made a very small percent on my order and it was probably 20yrs ago so i hoe they are daichi originals.
I did get both sets of Honda points labled as 400 four in Honda blister packs for £6 each on a stall at a car show. Kept schtum and walked away smiling
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: cbxman on November 18, 2021, 09:55:45 AM
Got an absolutely fantastic response from the VintageRadio forum on this topic.

Not so much on here though, which is a bit disappointing.
 
Not particularly having a rant but it seems we get pages and pages of posts on here on  the differences between Honda  candy gold paint finishes, so I am beginning to wonder why I bother posting this tech stuffas there seems to be very little discussion.

Anyway, moving on,  I bought a high voltage  insulation tester to 'weed' out condensers , before I build a pukka JIS spec.  tester.

Interestingly, I took a dual capacitor from a Honda twin and a NOS similar one.
Testing the capacitor at elevated temperature, akin to what you get in service, the capacitance was bang on the correct value given by Honda on both the old and the NOS parts.

Also testing the the insulation firstly at 250v, then 500v, then 1000v,  on a single 'static'  test, the insulation was fine on both the used one (Genuine part .. taken from a 1973 bike) and on the NOS one. I also tested a NOS electronic component 'wire ended' one of similar capacitance and voltage spec.

However, there is a 'continuous' test mode on the new tester I bought and when tested on this function (it repeatedly applies the voltage), the used one started displaying a value of a couple of megOhms leakage, whereas the NOS part and the 'reference' capacitor didn't.

So I guess the used condenser is leaky, dynamically and explains why the owner of the bike was reporting excessive arcing at the points, even though on a static test the capacitor tested out fine.

My next 'experiment' is to dig out a brand new Daiichi pattern one and put it through it's paces. This brand has a very bad press but is the pattern part sold by lot's of reputable parts suppliers including David Silvers.

Ash, Don't be disappointed,

There must be many of us who like to see endeavours like yours.  I'm a retired BT electronics designer/tester and also a lapsed radio amateur, so please go ahead and entertain us.  I love that sort of thing.  Keep it coming.

Cheers,
Jerry
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 18, 2021, 08:27:06 PM
Thanks for comments and PM's all. .. that's encouraging.

I found a newish looking points/condenser assembly in my stash of parts and it looks like the points and condensers are all  Daiichi. Stamped 'Made in Japan'

I tested the condensers both statically and continuously and perfect results. All of the NOS Denso condensers I have tested so far are OK too. The only used one I have tested so far turned out to be leaky but it's 48 years old, so understandable I suppose.

I will go through my entire stock of used and NOS condensers and see how they all  fare.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on November 19, 2021, 06:59:04 AM
I was down an internet rabbit hole the other day and came across a guy that reviewed vintage hifi loudspeakers.

Typically 70s/80s stuff.

He always comments on the state of any crossover circuitry and reviews the speakers as-found before refurbing the filters and retesting. His comments on 50-year-old capacitors are entertaining.


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Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on November 19, 2021, 09:32:16 AM
I got this back from 'Hondaman' on the USA site. (prompted by Bryan  :) )

Good work, Ashimoto!
I remember those Honda testers. Mine burned out the vibrator tube that ran the high-voltage test circuit, and I could never get a new tube after that.

The Daiichi condensors have undergone some transformations: they were first made in Japan and those are usually stamped with the 3-leaf symbol and "JAPAN" on their bottom ends. Those worked OK (I still have some of those). The ones that do NOT work OK are the ones from Daiichi (not Japan), which are knockoffs from China. For a while Daiichi Japan had Taiwan make some of the condensors, and those are stamped "Tai" or "Taiwan". Those work, too, but this only happened for a short while. It's the modern ones (since 2016) from mainland China that do not work, usually within 100 miles or less.


I dug out more of my NOS and used condensers last night (used ones typically 35+ years  old I guess)  and all of the NOS ones tested fine and all of the used ones were leaky to various extents. None of  the used one I would consider re-using and only fit for the bin. However, some of the used ones looked shiny new when cleaned up, which is deceptive.

Good news though that NOS one's don't seem to degrade in storage .. I suspect my NOS CB72 style dual-can ones are 30+ years old but stored indoors in warm conditions, so no real chance of moisture ingress.
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Seabeowner on November 19, 2021, 07:42:10 PM
I'm also following this as I have stuck with the points on three of my four bikes. Did tens of thousands of miles in the 70s and never remember a problem with my Hondas or Kawasakis. Have a couple of spare Daiichi that I bought from DSS in 2017 and just dragged them out of store. "Made in Japan" with 3 leaf symbol so hopefully ok.
In general do all types of capacitor have a limited shelf life in years or only actual hours of use?
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Bryanj on November 19, 2021, 07:59:48 PM
There are different types of condenser, most only degrade with use but a few do with age
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Woodside on February 02, 2022, 01:15:34 PM
Hi Ash
Just popped in and saw this

It reminded me of this I have here
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Oddjob on February 02, 2022, 02:56:35 PM
That brings back some memories
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 02, 2022, 03:26:05 PM
I just got this ..tests Kawasaki early triples including CDi's and Z1 ignitions

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: deltarider on February 03, 2022, 08:26:35 AM
Great find. Does it read TACH/DWELL via an inductive clamp or via a solid connection?


Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 03, 2022, 10:03:28 AM
Do you mean Woodside's Honda tester or my Kawasaki  one? Not sure on the Kawasaki one yet but it deffo has a non-contacting  pickup for the strobe timing light. I think the tacho function is probably a crocodile clip onto the points type signal though.


Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: deltarider on February 03, 2022, 08:16:25 PM
[...] I think the tacho function is probably a crocodile clip onto the points type signal though.
That's the way I'd prefer to have it. Congrats again!
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Sesman on February 04, 2022, 08:14:06 AM
Those “Easy Peelers” are good value at 2 for £3? :o
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on February 04, 2022, 10:12:50 AM
Expired though…


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Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Oddjob on February 04, 2022, 02:44:28 PM
That plum's seen better days
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 04, 2022, 03:41:00 PM
  :-[ :-[ You are all as sad as that Plum  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: Bryanj on February 04, 2022, 06:10:00 PM
Just cos i never see daylight does not make me Sad
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: deltarider on February 05, 2022, 12:19:33 PM
BTW, does measuring capacitance make much sense, or is it more a way of determining what kind condenser you have at hand? The only test I've found so far, concerns insulation. It's in the French CB500/550 manual, which was composed in collaboration with Honda France. There it says:
> 5 MΩ   Good
     5 MΩ-1 MΩ Satisfactory
> 1 MΩ   Bad
Title: Re: Honda Service Tester capacitor/condenser tester voltage?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 05, 2022, 12:40:29 PM
Somewhere on here,  I pointed out the 1960's JIS 'dynamic' test for condensers, as mentioned in the CB450K0 Black Bomber manual. it's much more involved than the Honda tester shown, which tests at a static 200 ish volts DC. As far as I kno the Kawasaki tester does not test condensers.

All of the old Honda condensers I have tested show ell above 5 megohms, even when tested at 500v statically but when you do the continuously repeated test on my insulation tester, some show much lower resistance than others. Funnily enough, the best results I got so far is on a pair of 'Made in Japan' stamped Daiichi condensers bought new from Silvers in around 2010. They read bang on the correct capacitance and read infinite resistance even at 500v test voltage applied repeatedly. Having said that the JIS test is done at elevated temperature.

Sorry about the pic .. not a very clear one .. only just about legible.

[attachimg=1]
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