Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 03:12:55 PM
Am I missing something as it is struck fast - its not flexing as if its just stuck on the cush drive rubbers.
Post by: Bryanj on October 23, 2020, 04:11:31 PM
Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 06:06:20 PM
Post by: Bryanj on October 23, 2020, 07:19:39 PM
Post by: Erny on October 23, 2020, 08:24:40 PM
I tired, but gave up as it was not absolutely necessary
Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 09:11:35 PM
Post by: Trigger on October 23, 2020, 09:26:26 PM
Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 09:51:27 PM
Post by: Erny on October 23, 2020, 09:56:49 PM
It needs to come out to be greased. If not kept greased they do wear out and very hard to find a good one ;)
Not sure I understand - grease what? That rubber dumper or bearings? If bearings are worn, yes you have to take it apart, but otherwise?
Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 10:11:47 PM
Post by: Erny on October 23, 2020, 10:16:42 PM
Post by: philward on October 23, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
Post by: Trigger on October 23, 2020, 10:49:28 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Erny on October 23, 2020, 11:19:27 PM
Then I should take it apart during winter
Thanks for advice!
Post by: K2-K6 on October 23, 2020, 11:25:47 PM
I did not disassembly mine, but I've read that a lot of heat (propane) helps. There are also some videos on YT too I was told.
I tired, but gave up as it was not absolutely necessary
There's also a flip side to this if it's seized, it will give a very hard time to the primary drive system inside the engine and particularly the chain.
Relates to your other thread about engine noise Erny.
Post by: Erny on October 23, 2020, 11:31:34 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 23, 2020, 11:49:58 PM
Yep, thats out Bryan. Its solid with no 'bounce' if it was stuck on the rubber cush drive - its a metalic feeling through the bar as I shock the sprocket.
Can you get a "slide hammer hub puller" onto the studs, that would then tap it out if it's seized in the metal bearing.
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 01:20:00 AM
I did not disassembly mine, but I've read that a lot of heat (propane) helps. There are also some videos on YT too I was told.
I tired, but gave up as it was not absolutely necessary
There's also a flip side to this if it's seized, it will give a very hard time to the primary drive system inside the engine and particularly the chain.
Relates to your other thread about engine noise Erny.
I could not agree with you more. There are two shock absorbers on the 500/550, one is the primary drive rubbers and the second is the cush drive rubbers. These are always hard on USA bikes and old UK units which effects all the drive parts as it is all connected.
Even if the bush area on the hub is dry it will not do its job and put more stress on the engine parts.
When i build a bike, the engine always gets new primary chain and rubbers. The bike is always given new chain and sprockets, the rear wheel has new bearings and cush rubbers. This makes all the parts last a lot longer than just changing only one or two parts. Skimping always costs more in the long run and can cause more problems :o
Post by: deltarider on October 24, 2020, 06:58:19 AM
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on October 24, 2020, 07:10:55 AM
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Hubs with some random rants thrown in.
He’s not been around in a while, would you like me to delete it/them. Or maybe just move them onto a self publishing platform
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 08:01:54 AM
If parts are worn, IF, I'd expect play sideways. My drive flange was seriously worn. I was much helped by Oddjob. I have documented it here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=150358.0 Just skip that post by SoyBoySigh posted there. He's nuts.
If it had sideways movement, it would not be stuck :o Stuck is rusted or seized to the hub. Have you not read the thread to realize what the problem is.
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 09:25:32 AM
If the seizure is between the inner vertical face of the sprocket carrier and the hub centre (where the cush drive rubber nipples stick through into the brake area)? Is that where I should apply heat?
K2-K6 - no, unfortunately I haven't got access to a slide hammer but will make some kind of jig
Post by: Seabeowner on October 24, 2020, 09:28:09 AM
If parts are worn, IF, I'd expect play sideways. My drive flange was seriously worn. I was much helped by Oddjob. I have documented it here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=150358.0 Just skip that post by SoyBoySigh posted there. He's nuts.Stuck in this case but good information. When I had a a couple apart a few years ago I had trouble sourcing new rubbers and they still seem hard to come by but DSS has one set ATM.
Soy Boy no longer with us.
https://necrocanada.com/obituaries-2018/silas-benjamin-moses-ginn-july-27-1973-august-31-2018-age-45/#.W5k6yvZFyaE
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 09:31:55 AM
If parts are worn, IF, I'd expect play sideways. My drive flange was seriously worn. I was much helped by Oddjob. I have documented it here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=150358.0 Just skip that post by SoyBoySigh posted there. He's nuts.Stuck in this case but good information. When I had a a couple apart a few years ago I had trouble sourcing new rubbers and they still seem hard to come by but DSS has one set ATM.
Soy Boy no longer with us.
https://necrocanada.com/obituaries-2018/silas-benjamin-moses-ginn-july-27-1973-august-31-2018-age-45/#.W5k6yvZFyaE
Sorry - didn't see this post when I post last post
Post by: deltarider on October 24, 2020, 09:40:11 AM
Maybe I have missed it, but reading the OP, I haven't understood what the problem was to begin with... Let me put it this way. I know how hard it can be to get the rear wheel bearing out, even after you've succesfully freed the retainer. I've managed but I can assure you that the friend that was standing by, has learned some new words... What I'd would like to advise: don't undertake it, unless you have diagnosed a worn bearing. If you do it out of curiosity, you may well end up with a damaged retainer and even bearing. My warning is well ment. Over the years I have so often read about members undertaking things that left me bewondered: why go there, if you don't have to? If the OP has diagnosed there clearly is a problem, my warning is a shot in the dark ofcourse, that can be ignored. The 'problem' of freeing parts that are stuck, can be dealt with later, when you need to go there. At least that's how I see it. I'd would like to advise Erny, if there's no problem, leave it alone.If parts are worn, IF, I'd expect play sideways. My drive flange was seriously worn. I was much helped by Oddjob. I have documented it here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=150358.0 Just skip that post by SoyBoySigh posted there. He's nuts.
If it had sideways movement, it would not be stuck :o Stuck is rusted or seized to the hub. Have you not read the thread to realize what the problem is.
Greasing that hub is not sceduled in the maintenance routine. Normally, it doesn't need to be serviced, because the movement is a very little indeed. There is a problem however when the O-ring is not there anymore or damaged. Then rain can wash the grease away. Normally that O-ring doesn't get damaged. Powercleaners are to be avoided. The O-ring can become damaged or even lost, when things have been removed before and no attention was paid to that O-ring. Ihat might well have happened in my case.
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 10:01:57 AM
I am beginning to agree with you ref replacing parts for the sake of it - all my rebuilds have been (in the main) replace anything that can wear - ie, I'm waiting for a DS order for all the the wheel/frame consumerables but when I got rear wheel bearings out, they are good - if I had had trouble with the bearing retainer removal, I would have cursed for doing it. Front wheel bearings seem good so I will keep the new bearings for the front wheel and fit if I need them. This approach will not apply to stuff that deteriates over time like rubber parts and engine parts that whould create major issues if they fail.
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 10:03:58 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 24, 2020, 10:07:19 AM
Great explanation and advice everybody - I always change cush drive rubbers normally (which is why I was trying to get sprocket carrier off). Now I have to figure out how to get it off!
If the seizure is between the inner vertical face of the sprocket carrier and the hub centre (where the cush drive rubber nipples stick through into the brake area)? Is that where I should apply heat?
K2-K6 - no, unfortunately I haven't got access to a slide hammer but will make some kind of jig
There's a possibility that a local motor factor shop has a loan one, I've only borrowed such when needed as they do make something like this fairly easy and less "traumatic" for the structure.
It's only pulling in the correct direction and you can use small tapping to get it free, so no leverage onto any other part.
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 10:32:39 AM
Great explanation and advice everybody - I always change cush drive rubbers normally (which is why I was trying to get sprocket carrier off). Now I have to figure out how to get it off!
If the seizure is between the inner vertical face of the sprocket carrier and the hub centre (where the cush drive rubber nipples stick through into the brake area)? Is that where I should apply heat?
K2-K6 - no, unfortunately I haven't got access to a slide hammer but will make some kind of jig
Just looled at schematics and see now the area of seizure and hence where to apply the heat.
Ironically (and don't shout at me!) I think I threw a spocket carrier away (I think, as I can't find it in the shed) that may have been off a 500 - as I built the CR750 Rep from parts and bought a sprocket carrier that by the time I got round to fitting it, realised it wasn't for a 750 but didn't know what bike it was for - was kicking around for years in the shed and got naffed of with all the mess in the shed so sold and binned loads of parts last year - hindsight!
Post by: deltarider on October 24, 2020, 11:11:43 AM
Quote
Ironically (and don't shout at me!) I think I threw a spocket carrier awayI know the feeling, Philward. When I moved house in '85, I had the rear grab rail (PN 84101-323-671) in my hand thinking: will I ever need this again now that I have replaced it by a luggage carrier since long and so I have abandoned the grab rail. Now I want one again, because the bike looks sooooo much better with it (see Erny's bike). A repro will set me back some € 120,-. :-[
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 11:47:09 AM
Great explanation and advice everybody - I always change cush drive rubbers normally (which is why I was trying to get sprocket carrier off). Now I have to figure out how to get it off!
If the seizure is between the inner vertical face of the sprocket carrier and the hub centre (where the cush drive rubber nipples stick through into the brake area)? Is that where I should apply heat?
K2-K6 - no, unfortunately I haven't got access to a slide hammer but will make some kind of jig
Just looled at schematics and see now the area of seizure and hence where to apply the heat.
Ironically (and don't shout at me!) I think I threw a spocket carrier away (I think, as I can't find it in the shed) that may have been off a 500 - as I built the CR750 Rep from parts and bought a sprocket carrier that by the time I got round to fitting it, realised it wasn't for a 750 but didn't know what bike it was for - was kicking around for years in the shed and got naffed of with all the mess in the shed so sold and binned loads of parts last year - hindsight!
You need a sprocket cover Phil. It has a seal in the middle and a large 0'ring to keep the shite out.
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 11:49:03 AM
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 12:03:47 PM
I have the sprocket cover Graham - just re-zinc'ed it yesterday
Sorry Phil, I thought you said, you throw it away but, you were on about the carrier ;D
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 12:30:06 PM
The carrier looks oily on the surface that normally seizes - does that looks ok?
Post by: deltarider on October 24, 2020, 01:15:03 PM
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 01:51:04 PM
Just for the benefit of anybody having a seized carrier and doesn't come off as easily as mine, I was going to bolt a plate across the sprocket (effectively blanking off the hole in the centre of the sprocket/carrier) then lay wheel carrier facing down across 2 blocks across the wheel rims. Then you could drive the plate downwards from brake drum side using a bar and hammer - this would allow even pressure to be applied to the carrier - similar to K2-K6's suggestion about slide hammer. Hope thats helpful to someone unfortunate enough to have a seized carrier.
One again, thanks for everyones help.
Post by: Trigger on October 24, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 05:22:17 PM
Post by: philward on October 24, 2020, 07:01:54 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 25, 2020, 04:05:34 PM
At risked being called a blasphemist, but... if mine were stuck, hm, I might leave it as it is. Surely, I'll miss some (minor) damping, but aren't there a lot of bikes out there, that lack this damping there altogether? I mean, look it from the bright side: your rear wheel will be a lot easier to balance dynamically than standard (practically impossible). Never understood why Honda designed it this way. Has the same design been applied on other Honda's?
The 750 certainly uses a different arrangement with the sprocket carrier having it's own, and independent, bearing outlying from the two wheel bearings. It's tightened as an assembly with spacers to make a "whole wheel " module but significantly larger and heavier than the 500 fitment.
I feel if you're to consider the effects of these cush drives you may ultimately hold a different view as to their effectiveness. Each one is dedicated to reduction of peak load spikes and not transfer those destructive forces further along the transmission components, that's in both directions. They are vital to the installed systems running within design parameters in regard to component loading and longevity. Virtually all road (possibly not some competition machinery) vehicles use them for this purpose, to maintain component life expectations in service.
These 500 sohc based designs show clearly the most at risk component (primary drive chain) when taken apart. Even if the rest of the engine is in very good order from being serviced correctly, this one thing will be worn almost without exception. In effect it virtually proves there's conditions close to the limit for this part And that's assuming the cushes are good condition.
If they are wrong or compromised, then component life will be reduced. In extreme cases it can ultimately destroy the crankshaft, not necessarily in this engine, but illustrative of it's potency if uncontrolled vibrations are left to run out of control.
The primary chain, Hi-vo type could probably utilise it's own thread here to fully understand it.
Post by: Bryanj on October 25, 2020, 04:51:16 PM