Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Mikep328 on August 16, 2023, 06:47:04 AM
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Has anyone performed a test to see the difference in power consumption between running the OEM points system vs a DSS E-ignition (which is on my 400)? I'm curious about that, suspecting that points would require less power.
In the spirit of tinkering, on that subject I am looking for an OEM (points) ignition advance cam - JUST the cam that fits on the advance unit. Anybody in the UK have a spare they would sell me? DSS has the entire advance unit but I don't want to spend £58+ for that when I only need the cam. I have all the rest of the OEM system, but I guess when a previous owner installed the e-ignition, he/she tossed the cam or forgot to put it in the little bag with the breaker plate that stayed with the bike.
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You might need to check the brand of advancer as the part will be probably be different - there are two iirc one is tec the other is ND I think.
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OK, didn't realize there were two different advance units. Thanks.
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Give Steve a shout, he may be able to help.
https://www.400fourbits.co.uk/#electrical
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Thanks re Steve! :)
No joy! :-\
I suspect I'd have to buy the new unit from DSS if I want to tinker with points. But I don't have £58 worth of tinkering in mind for this...
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I've sent a PM I might be able to help.
Assuming that Honda paired the same brand of spark advancer with the ignition plate I have a Tec one that is from my 400.
If you check the diameter of the shaft the one I have is as follows.
Length/Height inc: flanged part 29.65 mm approx, Inside diameter at flanged section (inner face) 15.2 mm, main inside diameter of shaft 15.0-14.95 mm approx.
The ND one is substantially larger or smaller i/d I forget what way round it is
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All measurements approx only taken with my calipers.
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For a CB400, it has 333 number on it
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Thanks guys, I'll check it later this afternoon if I get to the garage. If not, tomorrow when I get back from having a new set of K82's mounted.
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Update: I ended up going back to the USA before continuing with this "project." While there I came across a complete points plate/advance unit in a garage sale for 10 USD! I checked the condensers with a real capacitor tester (not a multimeter) and they show good as far as capacitance and voltage. Points are original ND and look essentially unused.
Now I'm back in the UK eyeing these parts wondering whether I REALLY want to install the OEM system or just leave the perfectly functioning DSS EI in place. Logic/common sense would dictate leaving the EI; but I have this NON-common sense urge to have the points in there...
I haven't awakened the 400 yet from it's winter slumber - been too cold/wet for me but hope to do that sometime this week. It's probably not often that someone has a perfectly running machine and intentionally changes something that may make it less so and I can't think of any operational advantage that the points would provide! Yes, they will provide a spark with less voltage than EI but I haven't seen any case with my 400 where low voltage is an issue. ::) So more thinking...
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The only advantage I can see but would not use is that often a CB issue can be fixed at the roadside.
An electronic ignition system (I have one fitted) is a bit like a light bulb it either works or it's blown, not much in the middle assuming the connections are all good to the unit.
My experience on cars is that they are many times more reliable than CB points as well as staying 'in tune' so as to speak even though cars have a different spark supply arrangements.
The Boyer system is probably the best of both worlds in some ways as it retains the CB points iirc.
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The "Hondaman" units, along with some others, use the points to trigger with electronic load switching of coils to give hybrid system.
Boyer uses all electronic, triggering, advance/retard (deletes std mechanism) with internal curve determination, multi spark at low rpm, control of dwell independent of crank speed etc .... essentially a full change to most automated into that unit of most system on offer.
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Update: I ended up going back to the USA before continuing with this "project." While there I came across a complete points plate/advance unit in a garage sale for 10 USD! I checked the condensers with a real capacitor tester (not a multimeter) and they show good as far as capacitance and voltage. Points are original ND and look essentially unused.
Now I'm back in the UK eyeing these parts wondering whether I REALLY want to install the OEM system or just leave the perfectly functioning DSS EI in place. Logic/common sense would dictate leaving the EI; but I have this NON-common sense urge to have the points in there...
I haven't awakened the 400 yet from it's winter slumber - been too cold/wet for me but hope to do that sometime this week. It's probably not often that someone has a perfectly running machine and intentionally changes something that may make it less so and I can't think of any operational advantage that the points would provide! Yes, they will provide a spark with less voltage than EI but I haven't seen any case with my 400 where low voltage is an issue. ::) So more thinking...
I'd be inclined to keep the fitted DS system to run it, bag the original and store to see if there's need later on.
I doesn't look to me that you could tell the difference between the two from running perspective, conditional on the points system working as it should when new. But ultimately it will wear more during use.
It is hard (seems common across many points system in different manufacturers) to get condensers that would fully support competent running now. Many complaints across different forum etc.
If youve bought that good set and want them as backup longer term, running the DS system appears sensible. More personal decision than any real practical choice, with either being fine in running the engine.
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I agree with K2-K6 on his comments, when I eventually get my 500 running I will use the CB points system as I know it ran on them just fine.
Probably after a few hundred miles I will fit my electronic system that I sourced from Bryan.
Part of me says a hybrid system is neither fish nor flesh so like most things it's down to personal choice.
I suspect I have often made up my mind then seek out answers to confirm my already held biased views.
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The argument for the Hondaman hybrid system is there is virtually no arcing at the points making them last 10s of thousands of
miles with no maintenance only the odd lube of the felt now and then. If there is a fault on the electronics it can be reverted back
to the standard system at the side of the road in a couple of minutes. I still run the original system but would go for the
Hondaman if going electronic.
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Good points (NPI), thanks. I readily admit that my interest in the OEM system is mostly "just because" it would be original.
I love mechanical stuff and the points appeal to me in that regard. Yeah...I'm a "mechanical guy" not a smart guy! :) The point (again, NPI) about wear is, of course a really valid one and I have read about modern ignition condensers and points being rather poor quality compared to that of back in the day. Then again, I don't ride my CB400 like I did back then when one motorcycle was my only vehicle so the wear quotient is pretty low in comparison.
Too much thinking - my dad would have said, "Install them or DON"T install them - make up your mind!"
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If tinkering is your thing then Uwe Gottwald at Accent Electronic in Germany does a system whereby you can program the advance curve via a laptop.
He speaks good English and is very helpful.
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Overthinking I suspect is the norm for members here "act in haste repent at leisure" springs to mind as the alternative.
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I have been an electronics design engineer for yonks :-[ but all of my bikes apart from my 400F (which came with Boyer Bransden Mk3 when I bought it in 1985 and still works OK) will be fitted with the standard arrangement. I think it depends on how many miles you will be covering... not a lot in the case of most classic bikes. The standard ' Kettering' ignition system on these bikes works well ...so if it's not broken ... blah blah. When I got my 1st 400F in 1978 I designed a CDi which used the standard points and did over 20k miles with it fitted (with a couple of popped main capacitors along the way ... capacitor technology then was not really designed for CDi only valve colour TV's). I never changed the points and there was never any significant wear on the heel of the contact breakers, so the timing never went out. This was with either ND or Hitachi points though ... heard nasty stories about Daiichi points/condensers but that may be that there are lots of Chinese ripoffs around.
So if you are only doing relatively low miles and you can find decent quality, preferrably OEM points and condensers, then I would fit the standard system. One DS system I saw has the electronics on a circular PCB that replaces the points plate. Irrespective of if it functions OK it only looks to have rudimentary weather/vibration protection and that would really put me off.
I think the original Boyer system possibly draws more current than standard due to it's unique (and patented IIRC) design.
My CDi system used an inverter which drew low current at low revs and higher current at high revs. This is the revers on the standard system.
Oddjob swore by the Hondaman ignition which basically does what my CDi did but just utilises transistors to switch the coil current rather than through the contact points rat. Mine whacked 400VDC across the coil from a charged capacitor... which is what Honda did on the CX500/Superdream etc. etc. ... Like my CDi, with the Hondaman ignition, you can simply revert to the standard setup with a switch because both use the standard points and auto-advancer.
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The problem I always have fitting a Boyer on a 400/4 (and other bikes) is where do you put the CDI unit! On one of them I placed it in the tool holder tray which made it a pia when removing the tray because the cable came through it and on another I placed it on the inside of the side panel with velcro.
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I need to investigate that Dave as mine was just flopping about when I bought the bike. I took one of those Boyer units apart that a member here kindly gave me. Interesting design and it was patented by Ernie Bransden I think. From memory it uses a wasted spark system so doesn't have two switching transistors for each of the two Honda Four coils. So I guess the current draw must be higher than the standard points setup. Really need to revisit it in case I am talking BS plus design some kind of holder for the potted block. Tell you something though, that system seems to have stood the test of time.The failed unit a member (John Webley IIRC) donated to me had failed after many years and miles of reliable service. Plus it was only a failed capacitor IIRC not the main switching transistor.
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On my original 400/4 I zip tied the box on the top frame tube and just clear of the carb bank as there was just enough room for it to sit between the fuel tank tunnel and the frame tube. I thought I'd had a result until one day when giving the bike a handful it topped out at 110mph🙄, (actually it was about 70!). The CDI box had slowly worked it's way back down the frame just enough to interfere with the top of the carbs at full throttle.
I'm 90% sure the Boyer does use a wasted spark Ash👍
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Boyer fire all the plugs all the time
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Thats my understanding too ... obviously two pickup though to give the 180 degree timing point.