Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: cb550k-aaron on October 03, 2018, 11:20:42 AM

Title: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 03, 2018, 11:20:42 AM
Guys,

Having problems with my electrics, basically the new solid state Reg Rec i fitted, on the Black wire coming back into it is showing 1v Less than the Battery, therefore its telling the rectifier that the battery needs charging more when it really maybe doesn't.

Ill list what I have changed,
1) New Loom
2) New Fuse Box
3) New Coils
4) Dynatek Ignition in place of Points
5) New Hand Controls both sides
6) New lithium Battery

I've been through everything, earths, everything being wired properly, the stator everything!
I came to the Conclusion last night, that it's the Dynatek drawing the extra power because if I unplug it the 1v appears on the Black wire again.

I basically have to Run a new Black or Splice into the System before the White & Black that goes to the Coils that the Dynatek Connects to, has anyone got any idea where i could do this?

Rear light or horn maybe? The White and Black goes the the RH Switch which is Connected to Black as well.

I just don't want to Ruin a new Battery or anything else, so any suggestions at all would be appreciated!
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 03, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
The black is a switched power and nearest place,electrically, to battery is at the ignition switch
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 08, 2018, 04:38:04 PM
The black is a switched power and nearest place,electrically, to battery is at the ignition switch

Will give it a go, thanks!
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 08, 2018, 08:18:17 PM
Still having issues. The Black wire that goes into the Reg Rec is reading roughly 1v under what the battery says. Is this correct or should it not be basically the same as the battery voltage? I'm scared of over charging basically
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2018, 08:36:32 PM
1v is a bit much of a loss through the wiring suggesting a bad connection somewhere. With the pos probe on the battery check voltage on the bat, earth lead at engine, engine cases to see if earth connection is good ( should be same voltage at all points) Then assuming ground checks out ok with neg on battery work from bat + to solenoid, fuse(s) both ends, ignition switch input, ignition switch output etc to see where voltage is being lost
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 08, 2018, 10:07:58 PM
So, with the Ignition on and bike not started.

All earth's seem perfect, All the same readings there.

Then Mulitimeter on battery Negative, Solenoid perfect, fuses perfect both ends, all red wires in and around battery all good.

Then,
Battery: 12.7
Key switch Red in : 12.0
Black Out: 11.8

If I unplug the Keyswitch, Battery is 12.7 and Red in Plug at Keyswitch is 12.6
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 09, 2018, 12:16:24 AM
Dont forget that there will be a voltage drop if anything is taking power e.g. coils, neutral/oil light etc. There should not be  that much of a drop on the red line with no load and with your results taken as is

That means the contacts in the switch are high resistance.
Option 1 fill it full of wd40 and work it a lot and retest

Option 2 if 1 does not work take switch apart and manually clean contacts and retest

Option 3  if neither 1 nor 2 work new switch
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 09:12:24 AM
Fair enough I might just take a punt on a new one tbh as I need it sorted out.

Another question, I installed the new wiring loom but for some reason I can't get the Starter button to work. I don't have a neutral switch or clutch switch and think that's the problem, do they need earthing or? Thanks again
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 09, 2018, 04:03:15 PM
Depends on if you have the starter safety box or diode fitted and also what year loom and switches as the operation changed
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 07:20:31 PM
There's a small 2 pin diode/rectifier thing is that what you mean?

The loom is for a 78 from David Silver and Switch is a replica of the Original with the Starter button and Red kill at the top and the Headlight modes.

If that's any help at all
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on October 09, 2018, 07:23:40 PM
Maybe I've not read the posts properly, but is your bike a CB550..K..or.. F  wiring looms are different
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 07:29:18 PM
Maybe I've not read the posts properly, but is your bike a CB550..K..or.. F  wiring looms are different

It's a 550K3
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on October 09, 2018, 07:44:27 PM
The earlier CB550K had a 5 wire safety switch, its possible that the later CB550K3 had a 2 wire safety switch which was also fitted to the F model.
Have you fitted a diode (as image) to the 2-way socket?
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 07:53:28 PM
The earlier CB550K had a 5 wire safety switch, its possible that the later CB550K3 had a 2 wire safety switch which was also fitted to the F model.

Have you fitted a diode (as image) to the 2-way socket?

Hi mate. Yes I used the old one from the Original wiring loom. It's as you have pictured there. If I measure the red and yellow wire attached to the starter Solenoid it's 0v until I hit the button it goes 12v+ but nothing happens.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: petermigreen on October 09, 2018, 09:19:37 PM
If I measure the red and yellow wire attached to the starter Solenoid it's 0v until I hit the button it goes 12v+ but nothing happens.
That proves the starter button is doing it's job.
You could prove the solenoid by shorting across the two large terminals with a meaty screwdriver, if it doesn't turn the starter over then either the solenoid is duff or the starter is. If nothing happens right away pull away or you could do damage.
You could prove the starter by putting a jump lead directly from the battery positive onto the the heavy cable that goes to the starter motor.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 09:31:24 PM
I tried the screwdriver trick and it turned over the starter  ;)
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on October 09, 2018, 10:04:27 PM
As you have a 12v+ supply at the  solenoid (Yellow/red wire) from the starter button, you will also need a neutral switch or clutch switch to complete the circuit.
Do you have a wiring diagram for the F model?...the earlier CB550 K0,K1 does not apply
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 09, 2018, 10:11:09 PM
As you have a 12v+ supply at the  solenoid (Yellow/red wire) from the starter button, you will also need a neutral switch or clutch switch to complete the circuit.
Do you have a wiring diagram for the F model?...the earlier CB550 K0,K1 does not apply

I do in my Manual yes. Is there no way I can bypass? I'd like a neutral switch tbh but I can't get my hands on the Metal part that goes into the Left side casing, I have the cam though
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 10, 2018, 01:14:40 AM
As a temporary job until you get a neutral switch find rhe wires in the headlamp shell that would go to the clutch lever switch and join them together
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 10, 2018, 12:14:59 PM
As a temporary job until you get a neutral switch find rhe wires in the headlamp shell that would go to the clutch lever switch and join them together

Do you have Neutral switches? I was informed by another member you possibly had?
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on October 10, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Only 500/550 ones mate so yes. I only sell them as pairs with rotor and they cost me a lot to import so it comes out at £30 posted to you. If you want one PM me youre details
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 10, 2018, 06:58:29 PM
Only 500/550 ones mate so yes. I only sell them as pairs with rotor and they cost me a lot to import so it comes out at £30 posted to you. If you want one PM me youre details

Perfect!! I messaged you there. Pairs is 100%
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on October 12, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Just wanted to say, big thanks again to everyone on the forum especially @Bryanj, he posted out the Neutral Switch yesterday it came today!!

In and all and we're flying now, neutral indicator and starter both now kicking in. Thanks again fellas
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on March 27, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
Hi guys, I'm still getting this 1v Drop. It's making me paranoid I'm gonna do in another battery or worse. I bought a proper Reg Rec for a lithium battery which I hope will help.

Basically if I measure at the Battery it's 12.8 but the Black at the Reg Rec it's 11.8. if I unplugged that wire I get about 12.4 at that wire. The coils seem to take a lot of power. Should I consider changing them?

I have this all new...
Loom
Battery
Reg Rec
Ignition switch
Headlight bulb 35w
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on March 27, 2019, 09:55:24 PM
I would suggest checked battery voltage when running and charging first. 1 volt is not terrible, at least on mechanical reg.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on March 27, 2019, 10:34:45 PM
Hi Bryan, it's an Electronic style Reg Rec. Solid one
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Moorey on March 27, 2019, 11:05:24 PM
What are your voltage readings across the battery at  tickover ,2000,  3000,, 5000,rpm
What made you pick a lithium battery when these charging systems were made for lead acid batteries. Different types of batteries require different charging regimes. Lead acid, gel, AGM, lithium etc  unfortunately these days 12v batteries are not just 12v batteries. I would advise anyone with these old bikes to stick to good old refillable lead acid batteries.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Lobo on March 28, 2019, 12:49:44 AM
I’ll declare here... I’m not a sparky.

But tbh, I think you’re worrying over nothing (ie 1v drop), and if the electrics are otherwise good just put the sidepanels back on & enjoy the bike.

Your post intrigued me, and so I measured the voltages on my 750K2 & 400F.
Both bikes have new everything, including looms, OEM VRs, rectifiers, fuse boxes, overhauled switch gear, Newtronic (breakerless) ignitions (tho’ OEM Coils)... and notably LiFe batteries.

The 750 battery reads 13v (no load & across its terminals), and at the Voltage Regulator (ign on & across Black & Green wires)  this is then 12.6v.
Coils + Newtronic On (via the kill switch) drop the voltage at the VR to 12v.

The 400 battery (identical unit) reads 13.1v (no load & across its terminals), and at the VR (ign on & across Black & Green wires) this is then 12.2v.
Coils + Newtronic On (via the kill switch) drops the voltage at the VR to 10.7v. (this surprised me; but given the bike performs faultlessly I’m not gonna go looking for trouble here!)

Your voltage drop, to me, is acceptable... and simply due the ignition switch + various bullet connectors along the way / through the circuit.

The uprated coils indeed take more power than the OEM type, but I fail to see how changing them will ‘cure’ your concern... they drop the voltage for sure, simply meaning the VR will ‘hang in’ longer in order to reach the max charge voltage.

As mentioned previously by Bryan & moorey, you should consider a voltage check under power; unsure of the CB550, but the ‘750 tops off at abouts 14.5V from 4000rpm. This surely will point to whether you’re likely to cook the battery...

A note of caution here... the 750 / 400...& I guess 550 alternators, are on the limit wrt output. Everything switched on (OEM machine), and at low revs you’ll deplete the battery. I found this out from experience... hotwired an ammeter into the battery circuit, and at less than about 3000rpm noticed a drain. I now ride ‘lights off’ when about town etc. (my point is here, your new coils will exacerbate the charging issue)

Finally moorey, take your point in respect of these 1970 machines. I was in a position of only getting to ride my bikes a couple of times a year (worked abroad) and was bored of returning to flat batteries. I talked to the guys at Carrot Batteries, took the punt, and bought the LiFes. Expensive... £150 or so iirc, but these things are amazing. They weigh nothing... it’s like an empty plastic box - wow. They have internal circuitry to tolerate ‘agricultural’ charging (!). But, best of all, they maintain voltage regardless of lack of use... I could go > a year with no worries, no maintenance charging is needed. The final biggy is their longevity... I think mine are abouts 6yo and still going strong - this offsets the initial purchase price somewhat.
(I’ve got a 3rd LiFe in my 2011 MotoGuzzi - again, no issues; really pleased with it)

There is of course a downside to these batteries is you’ll need to buy a special charger... they drain just like any other battery if you leave lights on / excessive cranking etc.
Would I buy them again - probably. Certainly they were fantastic whilst I rarely used the bikes... now, I guess, they’re an expensive luxury.

Anyways... good luck aaron.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on March 28, 2019, 08:21:16 AM
What are your voltage readings across the battery at  tickover ,2000,  3000,, 5000,rpm
What made you pick a lithium battery when these charging systems were made for lead acid batteries. Different types of batteries require different charging regimes. Lead acid, gel, AGM, lithium etc  unfortunately these days 12v batteries are not just 12v batteries. I would advise anyone with these old bikes to stick to good old refillable lead acid batteries.

I understand what your saying, but i went the Cafe Racer route so very limited space ;)
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: cb550k-aaron on March 28, 2019, 08:26:30 AM
I’ll declare here... I’m not a sparky.

But tbh, I think you’re worrying over nothing (ie 1v drop), and if the electrics are otherwise good just put the sidepanels back on & enjoy the bike.

Your post intrigued me, and so I measured the voltages on my 750K2 & 400F.
Both bikes have new everything, including looms, OEM VRs, rectifiers, fuse boxes, overhauled switch gear, Newtronic (breakerless) ignitions (tho’ OEM Coils)... and notably LiFe batteries.

The 750 battery reads 13v (no load & across its terminals), and at the Voltage Regulator (ign on & across Black & Green wires)  this is then 12.6v.
Coils + Newtronic On (via the kill switch) drop the voltage at the VR to 12v.

The 400 battery (identical unit) reads 13.1v (no load & across its terminals), and at the VR (ign on & across Black & Green wires) this is then 12.2v.
Coils + Newtronic On (via the kill switch) drops the voltage at the VR to 10.7v. (this surprised me; but given the bike performs faultlessly I’m not gonna go looking for trouble here!)

Your voltage drop, to me, is acceptable... and simply due the ignition switch + various bullet connectors along the way / through the circuit.

The uprated coils indeed take more power than the OEM type, but I fail to see how changing them will ‘cure’ your concern... they drop the voltage for sure, simply meaning the VR will ‘hang in’ longer in order to reach the max charge voltage.

As mentioned previously by Bryan & moorey, you should consider a voltage check under power; unsure of the CB550, but the ‘750 tops off at abouts 14.5V from 4000rpm. This surely will point to whether you’re likely to cook the battery...

A note of caution here... the 750 / 400...& I guess 550 alternators, are on the limit wrt output. Everything switched on (OEM machine), and at low revs you’ll deplete the battery. I found this out from experience... hotwired an ammeter into the battery circuit, and at less than about 3000rpm noticed a drain. I now ride ‘lights off’ when about town etc. (my point is here, your new coils will exacerbate the charging issue)

Finally moorey, take your point in respect of these 1970 machines. I was in a position of only getting to ride my bikes a couple of times a year (worked abroad) and was bored of returning to flat batteries. I talked to the guys at Carrot Batteries, took the punt, and bought the LiFes. Expensive... £150 or so iirc, but these things are amazing. They weigh nothing... it’s like an empty plastic box - wow. They have internal circuitry to tolerate ‘agricultural’ charging (!). But, best of all, they maintain voltage regardless of lack of use... I could go > a year with no worries, no maintenance charging is needed. The final biggy is their longevity... I think mine are abouts 6yo and still going strong - this offsets the initial purchase price somewhat.
(I’ve got a 3rd LiFe in my 2011 MotoGuzzi - again, no issues; really pleased with it)

There is of course a downside to these batteries is you’ll need to buy a special charger... they drain just like any other battery if you leave lights on / excessive cranking etc.
Would I buy them again - probably. Certainly they were fantastic whilst I rarely used the bikes... now, I guess, they’re an expensive luxury.

Anyways... good luck aaron.

Hi Lobo,

I completely understand what your saying and i could be chasing my tail here! as Mentioned by yourself and others ill measure the values when the bike is running and report back.

 My taking on it was, If the Black wire was reading a Lot less than the Battery, the Reg Rec then compensated for that therefore overcharging. I could be wrong tho and a running bike is obviously the key.

I just want a problem free summer this year as every year there's been something wrong lol!

Thanks again guys
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Bryanj on March 28, 2019, 08:34:41 AM
Yes with a volt drop to reg it will charge till a higher battery voltage is reached but if your new battery cannot handle a 15v charging circuit im sorry but it is not the correct spec for a road vehicle.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Moorey on March 28, 2019, 10:40:36 AM
Lobo....They have internal circuitry to tolerate ‘agricultural’ charging (!).  If this is a fact then Arron should have no worries. Power tool batteries have boards in them so no reason for bike batteries not to have them to control charging.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Lobo on March 28, 2019, 11:35:55 AM
... yep, assuming aaron is using a bonafide m/c lithium battery, and not (eg) a 4S RC pack.
Aaron? 😂
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: matthewmosse on March 28, 2019, 06:27:52 PM
If using a rc battery or other non vehicle intended  battery then bcs boards to manage the battery charging are easy to buy and fit. I got fed up with the fact cordless power tool batteries keep changing pattern of the battery pack for little other reason than to make buying a new drill a more economical prospect than just replacing the battery when it starts to fail so found out the basics of rebuilding the old batteries and repairing them. Pretty simple things to work on once you decide to go for it, just dont short out a li-ion battery or get it over 60°c as apparently they can burn rather determinedly and are near impossible to extinguish once they go up.
Title: Re: 1978 CB550 Electricals
Post by: Lobo on March 28, 2019, 10:55:12 PM
aaron- not sure of your battery set up, but Matthew raises a good point - ie the safety of Li type batteries. Unless you know what you are doing wrt handling / charging ‘em, take real care, they are nothing akin to old fashioned Lead acid etc.
I’m ex airline, and every bloody year we’d have 2 days SEP (safety & emerg procedures) where the problems of Lithium batteries on board would be covered... each year it seemed the rules would change / tighten up.  Many videos of them spontaneously combusting (laptops / phones etc)  - once thermal runaway starts they’re VERY hard to extinguish... basically cooling the core is the only way possible.
And one for you Matthew... cheap (Chinese phone) chargers - a real concern!
Sorry - may be totally out of order here, just do take care.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal