Post by: Scottvincent on December 31, 2020, 02:19:41 PM
Thank you
Post by: robvangulik on December 31, 2020, 02:35:52 PM
Normally it is screwed in until resistance is felt and than back a quarter to (maximal) a half turn. When you write you screwed it in a further half turn I think you had it far too much turned out!
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 31, 2020, 02:37:42 PM
Post by: MrDavo on December 31, 2020, 03:47:56 PM
Like you, apparently, I learned this the hard way. :(
Post by: Scottvincent on December 31, 2020, 05:05:12 PM
When I had the clutch apart I ‘dressed’ the slots in the clutch basket to reduce friction and I have changed from semi-synthetic oil to GTX to see if that had an effect.
Post by: Nurse Julie on December 31, 2020, 06:03:27 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 01, 2021, 10:20:18 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 01, 2021, 10:57:01 AM
It's easier to do as above to set the clearance. It should end up with the cable and arm about 90 degree to each other when the clutch lever is fully pulled in to the bar after setting it correctly.
With the cable disconnected the clutch end lever should have about a mm or two free play at the end of that lever if you move it against it's spring. This would just about give clearance between the internal mech and starting to lift the plates, which then should be enough to lift the plates clear from the travel built into to lift cams.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 01, 2021, 02:09:41 PM
Thanks for replying. Yes, I do not think that adjustment is the problem. When adjusted by the book(clymer) screwed in until it touches and backed off quarter to half turn, the angle of the arm is approx 7 o’clock. The clutch action (from the clutch lever) is smooth. The clutch lifter slides in and out smoothly when the lever (handlebar) is operated.
I have just taken off the outer cover and the clutch lifter plate. The clutch plates all look correctly located within the basket. I will remove the clutch plates when I return from walking the dog. I have done this procedure at least half a dozen times over the past two years and it is doing my head in!
Any suggestions very welcome.
Post by: Bryanj on January 01, 2021, 02:20:25 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 01, 2021, 02:51:45 PM
Photo 1, incorrect position. Photo 2 correct position (sorry, crap photo) . It needs to be in exactly the right position.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: K2-K6 on January 01, 2021, 03:36:28 PM
This would be the most distance that the lift mech is capable of producing in giving space for the clutch plates to separate and would verify if that ability is there at all.
These clutch are unusual in that if the clutch pack heats up the thrust bearing moves away from the operating mech, with the likelihood of it slipping pretty remote. But set like this will at least give an assessment as to if it's possible to get it to release the drive sufficiently.
Making the assumption that the handle bar clutch lever is a standard fitment?
Post by: Bryanj on January 01, 2021, 03:42:24 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 01, 2021, 05:25:23 PM
I have cross referenced the parts with an F1 parts book, all parts present and correct but, again I will check after dismantling.
If I give the adjustment screw an extra half turn clockwise, it slightly improves the situation but the bike is still not rideable.
I’m certain that I am missing something but cannot, for the life of me, think what it can be! I can see the bike being consigned back to the shed!
Post by: Trigger on January 01, 2021, 07:07:24 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 01, 2021, 09:06:46 PM
No, the bike does not have the double plate. I’ll post some photographs tomorrow after I’ve pulled the clutch out.
Thanks to all.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 11:16:35 AM
As promised, some photographs of the clutch assembly.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 11:32:25 AM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 11:35:20 AM
Thank you.
Post by: hairygit on January 02, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on January 02, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 02, 2021, 01:24:47 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 01:36:33 PM
Thank you
Post by: Bryanj on January 02, 2021, 02:21:56 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 02, 2021, 02:34:15 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 04:23:07 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 04:26:28 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 02, 2021, 04:38:39 PM
Post by: Trigger on January 03, 2021, 09:40:04 AM
Not sure what to suggest with this one. It is not a good idea to dress the basket. I would look for a F1 complete clutch and start again. Were are you located in Norfolk as, i am not far from the Norfolk boarder and would love to see what the problem is up close and personal ;)
Post by: Scottvincent on January 03, 2021, 11:16:40 AM
When I fitted the new plates, I believe that I did soak them in oil. They have sat for about 9 months unused and so may have dried out in the bike? I’m going to remove the basket from the bike and check fit and movement of the plates in detail. I will re-soak and refit.
The Honda F/F1 parts book shows the option of either having plain plates or 5 plates and the composite plate. DS and CSMNL both show their replacement clutch packs for the F1 as having the ‘swirl’ pattern as opposed to the puck pattern. I don’t know if this is relevant to my problem
Looking at the line drawings in the parts book, the clutch shown appears to be the same as mine. What differences have you observed?
Lastly I greatly appreciate the help from the forum, the bike is too good to be abandoned!
Post by: K2-K6 on January 03, 2021, 02:22:01 PM
Now you can measure the total lift for full pull at the handlebar lever to assess just how much it will complete.
Would need a comparitive reference from someone else to try and at least eliminate this part from enquiries.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 04, 2021, 10:27:35 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 04, 2021, 12:56:36 PM
The adjustment screw then allows you to position the lift mech in relation to that datum (it will vary according to wear etc of those plates) with the designed lift dimension able to enact a linear movement such that each plate is given clearance to stop it gripping. If the pack had more plates, or the plates are distorted, then you'd need more lift to give free movement.
Ordinarily you'd expect one of the three "dimensions " to be away from expected to let the the clutch still drive the output shaft substantially, and make the gears rotate when you are trying to move them.
Obviously the clutch lift mech is controlling the amount of lift you have, maybe some pictures of it dismantled will draw comment from other's here if there's anything obviously amiss.
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 04, 2021, 03:06:24 PM
Thanks Jedi.
He’s not a Jedi - he’s a very naughty boy ( sorry - bit of a misquote there
) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on January 04, 2021, 03:31:56 PM
Thanks Jedi.
He’s not a Jedi - he’s a very naughty boy ( sorry - bit of a misquote there
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From one of Mrs K's favourite film scenes :D
Post by: Bryanj on January 04, 2021, 03:59:36 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 04, 2021, 05:01:23 PM
I have taken a few photographs of the clutch lifting mechanism. Does it look as you would expect, or is it looking worn?
Thank you everyone for your insights.
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 04, 2021, 05:09:34 PM
Are the ball bearings moving in the cages smoothly?
Post by: K2-K6 on January 04, 2021, 06:34:05 PM
As julie says, looks ok from those bits.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 04, 2021, 06:47:38 PM
[attachimg=1]
#7 item should be installed in backside of main clutch cover as a track for those tri lift ball bearings.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 04, 2021, 07:45:23 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Bryanj on January 04, 2021, 07:47:46 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 04, 2021, 08:12:17 PM
That's the area Scottvincent, and wonder if Julie may have a comparison picture to look at another example.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 05, 2021, 04:47:09 PM
The bike will go into gear without a sound and will tick over, in gear, held on the front brake. So, not fixed yet.
I have attached a couple of photographs showing the clutch lift mechanism, clutch lever in and out.
I would appreciate any comment.
Thank you
Post by: philward on January 05, 2021, 08:51:28 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 05, 2021, 09:01:09 PM
No, it’s just a smear of grease that I used to hold the gasket in place whilst I did a trial fitting of the clutch.
Thanks
Post by: K2-K6 on January 05, 2021, 11:20:39 PM
Presumably you've adjusted as you described, touch screw in then back out a prescribed amount?
You can, for investigative purposes, just touch the screw down and not go back to give slack to assess it like that. It may be a route to run as such initially to bed the assembly in and then reassessment after a few miles. That would give the most lift possible with the components you've got.
On these, the clutch if you give it some hard launches to heat it up (no suggestion to do this, but illustrative) results in the clutch pack expanding and moving away from the lifter mech, so it doesn't promote slip but more that you can't release it fully. It's low risk to run it as suggested above as it won't ordinarily give a problem.
Worthwhile to try it and see what you get in respect of it dragging.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 06, 2021, 03:48:31 PM
I adjusted the clutch as you suggested and went for an exploratory ride. The bike went into gear without a crunch but was wanting to be off by itself. It could be held on the brake. Within 2 yards the clutch was slipping so badly that no further progress was possible. Ignominious return to the garage! I reset the clutch, as per manual and tried again. The bike went into gear without a crunch, but again wanted to proceed with or without me. This time the clutch engaged and rode as I would expect it to. Gear changes were quiet, even into first gear, but I could not engage neutral when stationary. The bike would stall when held on the brake.
I think that it needs a good long ride with frequent use of clutch and gears.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thank you
Post by: Scottvincent on January 06, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 06, 2021, 03:57:23 PM
Post by: JezzaPeach on January 06, 2021, 04:05:52 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 06, 2021, 04:34:10 PM
Thank you.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 06, 2021, 05:42:25 PM
Nurse Julie, I will give a mineral oil a try. I am supposing that back in the 70s, this is what Honda would have used? Any recommendations?
Thank you.
I've read lots of advice about Synthetics & Semis not being suitable for older bikes - Exol do a semi synthetic suitable for wet clutches. I'm going to probably use the Asda Mineral Oil.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 06, 2021, 06:53:22 PM
By tightening and not backing out the screw you effectively set the lift mech to touching the thrust bearing with no space, when you tried to use it the plates must have compacted more to then slip with it set like that. It moves the whole combined clutch plate pack toward the lift mech, which shouldn't happen.
Using it as you've set it now (after the pack has found a natural home point) will probably help and certainly allow you to asses it further. Gear changing won't change anything as such but clutch use to pull away etc will.
To make a problem statement, the clutch mech lift is insufficient to make each plate run clear enough from it's neighbouring plates to prevent torque driving through them.
Ordinarily, a prime cause of that would be having bent or bowed plates. Are you certain that the plates are substantially flat (check on a piece of glass, for wave form and also for peripheral to internal diameter (making sure they are not cone shaped) as any significant variance will take up space that can't be accessed by the lifter mechanism, and drive will always be in place as you have in dragging.
You can check them with feeler guages against a known flat surface.
Post by: philward on January 06, 2021, 09:53:55 PM
Post by: Scottvincent on January 07, 2021, 09:24:16 PM
I’ve checked the plates for flatness, all seemed ok. I am happy that the clutch lifting mechanism is working fine, the problem seems to be in the separation of the plates. Looking back I think that I can see what may have happened.
I believe that the F1 sat for many years after money had been spent on renewing numerous parts, I would imagine that the p.o. ran out of energy (or money). It was then traded in as an unfinished project to a local bike dealer in Norfolk who wanted to move it on quickly - this is where I came in as there is nothing I like more that an orphaned bike ( I have more in my shed)
I got it up and running but never touched the clutch. The bike had no oil in the tank when I got it and a stripped sump plug and I would imagine that the clutch was dried out. I assumed that new plates and springs would sort matters out, but thinking back, I don’t think that I soaked the new plates in oil and so just duplicated the problem. Things were definitely better after I soaked the clutch for a couple of days recently. Unfortunately I just changed the oil for fully synthetic, compounding the problem.
I will clean the plates and change the oil for mineral. Hopefully this will resolve the problem.
Thank you to everyone who contributed to the (hopeful) resolution of the problem.
Post by: JezzaPeach on January 08, 2021, 08:14:55 AM
Post by: philward on January 08, 2021, 03:38:11 PM
HiI hope you are right Scott but I have built 3 x 750's in recent years, changing the plates on all 3 and have never pre soaked the friction plates (just smeared with oil) - hope you sort it!
I’ve checked the plates for flatness, all seemed ok. I am happy that the clutch lifting mechanism is working fine, the problem seems to be in the separation of the plates. Looking back I think that I can see what may have happened.
I believe that the F1 sat for many years after money had been spent on renewing numerous parts, I would imagine that the p.o. ran out of energy (or money). It was then traded in as an unfinished project to a local bike dealer in Norfolk who wanted to move it on quickly - this is where I came in as there is nothing I like more that an orphaned bike ( I have more in my shed)
I got it up and running but never touched the clutch. The bike had no oil in the tank when I got it and a stripped sump plug and I would imagine that the clutch was dried out. I assumed that new plates and springs would sort matters out, but thinking back, I don’t think that I soaked the new plates in oil and so just duplicated the problem. Things were definitely better after I soaked the clutch for a couple of days recently. Unfortunately I just changed the oil for fully synthetic, compounding the problem.
I will clean the plates and change the oil for mineral. Hopefully this will resolve the problem.
Thank you to everyone who contributed to the (hopeful) resolution of the problem.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 08, 2021, 03:58:28 PM
However, I’m not just basing my optimism on chance but on the fact that after I soaked the plates, the clutch felt considerably better than before. Hopefully the change to mineral oil will also incrementally improve matters. I am looking for for all the small detail adjustments that will add up to a larger improvement, as I cannot see anything fundamentally wrong with the clutch.
Thanks for the advice.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 08, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
The general claim is that "synthetic" engine oil is considered (not by me) to make wet clutches MORE likely to slip. Ergo, it follows that "mineral" engine oil will provide MORE grip from the plates, which is the problem you are attempting to avoid.
It seems counterintuitive in logic terms.
Post by: Scottvincent on January 08, 2021, 06:04:24 PM
Regards
Post by: StealthDJ on July 11, 2022, 10:33:49 AM
1. F1 750
2. Replacement plates from DS with angled slots on the 'standard' plates rather than perpendicular
3. No 'double' plain plate (that I recall seeing)
Where it differs is the the exact symptoms - the bike is rideable. And can even be held in gear with the clutch in and no need to hold the brake. However, the gear changes (downshifts especially) are so bad that false neutrals are a frequent occurrence because I can't get full throw on the gear lever. That on its own would suggest the clutch lifter needs adjusting, but a: it already is, and b: while the clutch still drags with the lever held fully in, it doesn't actually properly bite until the lever is almost completely released.
I'm fairly sure I'm going to have to take the whole lot apart again, but curious to see what I'll be wanting to look for when I do...
Post by: K2-K6 on July 13, 2022, 05:27:27 PM