Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB750 => Topic started by: Greg H on November 19, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
-
I'm building a hot 1000 ,750 based motor .
Can anyone recommend a suitable readily available Engine Oil ? .
Cheers Greg "H"
-
Anything 10w40 semi synthetic from any major brand really, shell, motul etc.
For break in period after a build, mineral 10w40 is recommended to get everything bedded in, rings seated etc.
-
Thanks for the reply Phil ;).
I guess what I was looking for something more specific ,something like a brand of oil which people on here have used succesfully .
I've been doing a bit of digging on the old interweb and come up with what looks like an ideal choice of10/40 mineral oil for my motor .
It's Miller Oils 10/40 mineral running in oil .
I intend dropping the oil a couple of times after initial start up,and although this motor has cost me an arm and a leg to build ,the cost, suitability and availability of the Miller Oils stuff is looking good .
Cheers Greg "H"
-
Just changed the oil on my 400 to take it it for a run to see if any glaring issues before stripping to restore. On the advice of Brian on the forum, went to Tescos in search of 10/40 standard mineral stuff. Couldn't see exactly that but bought a "part synthetic". New one on me - spose same or similar to semi... says older engines / petrol and diesel. 2l for £6.50 too! Not been out for a good run but seems fine so far.
-
As I've spent a number of years(and not to mention a small fortune ::)) building this bike as an early1970s replica pro stock drag bike ,which means that it'll be loud and uncomfortable and totally unsuitable for the road as well as not being road legal(something that wouldn't have bothered me a few years ago ;D ;D)I won't have the luxury of being able to take it down the road to check if everything is o.k ,
everything will have to be sorted out at home on the driveway ,in the workshop or at the track.
-
I have done quite a few miles using this stuff,
after any parts have been run in
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/engine-oils-and-car-fluids/engineoils/10w40-engine-oil/?521776011&0&cc5_245
-
Thanks for that mate ;).
It looks like what I'm looking for .
I've bookmarked the page for future reference .
-
I use that very same qx oil in all my bikes. Never had any issues.
-
Same for me, but the diesel one
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/engine-oils-and-car-fluids/engineoils/10w40-engine-oil/?521776151&0&cc5_245
-
Found it a bit cheaper:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XTRIPLE+QX+Semi+Synthetic+Diesel+Engine+Oil+-+10W-40+-+5ltr.TRS0&_nkw=TRIPLE+QX+Semi+Synthetic+Diesel+Engine+Oil+-+10W-40+-+5ltr&_sacat=0
-
Nice one Phil ;).
-
It does not state whether this oil is for cars or bikes which is unusual, but I don't suppose it matters, in the 60's a mate of mine put cooking oil in his bike, he use to nick it from work.. ::)
-
I'm surprised you've not had an avalanche of stuff on this as oil threads usually generate their own gravitational pull ;)
As you're possibly in a different level of operation with a modified engine I think it's worth more in depth consideration. I'd look at oils specified to VW 505.01 to consider it's specific attributes that could be appropriate here. That point zero one makes a significant difference to the oil spec in terms of material protection.
It's for their series of pump direct engines labelled PD and offers a higher level of protection for their cams which are highly loaded as well as being passed through a literally red hot turbo.
-
You need to be a bit careful if you are going to run an engine with more power than standard.
Modern engine oils have friction modifiers to enable the vehicles to have better fuel consumption. If you use these oils you can have problems with clutch slip. If you run a standard engine and you drive sensibly you probably wont have any trouble.
I race a sidecar with an 836cc engine and I'm building a 1000cc engine for next season, I use Millars 20w50 motorcycle oil. The engine oils specified for motorcycles don't have friction modifiers so eliminate the clutch slip problem.
-
The oil thread gravitational pull is starting.....
There is a standard for oil for wet clutches so clutch slip is easily avoided http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php
Gearboxes should also have EP additives to reduce wear, but you rarely see that bit debated, it's always about the clutch because that's where you can feel the difference.
Personally for road bikes I just buy any known brand bike specific oil, yes the prices are a rip off, but it saves having to understand all the oil threads. (for trials where the clutch feel is more important I use Motul 300v)
-
The oil thread gravitational pull is starting.....
There is a standard for oil for wet clutches so clutch slip is easily avoided http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php
Gearboxes should also have EP additives to reduce wear, but you rarely see that bit debated, it's always about the clutch because that's where you can feel the difference.
Personally for road bikes I just buy any known brand bike specific oil, yes the prices are a rip off, but it saves having to understand all the oil threads. (for trials where the clutch feel is more important I use Motul 300v)
That is the reason to go for the Diesel one as it has additive’s for the turbo.
There has been many, many discussions on here about it and the people who are in the know recommend Diesel not petrol oil.
-
Paul is correct, you need the right spec which is found in diesel oils for the gear box and clutch. Car gear box's and clutch are separate to the workings of the engine. Make sure the spec recommended in you Manuel fits the spec on the oil you wish to buy.
-
As any aside, welcome to the forum kew. I'm assuming you're running that motor in an outfit, is that for road racing?
It's something I think that ends up just hanging as no ultimate conclusions are really informative enough to define what the mythical (well they appear mythical to me) friction modifiers are in any observable or verifiable facts.
If I were to pay for and build up an engine I would consider the oil performance in protecting that as a primary aim and then try to see how that could perform for the conditions the clutch is in. I'm not niave enough to dismiss the clutch as being essential that it operates properly and is able to transmit the torque asked of it but it becomes purely speculative if the engine lunches itself when used fully.
I've been looking at many aspects of oil in various engines and can see many parts of those specifications which are published but when you get to the "friction modifiers" that shouldn't be used in wet clutches, nothing appears available. How can logical decisions be made when this area almost resembles the magic circle?
I'm aware that molybdenum disulfide is considered accumulative in soft clutch materials, and looks detrimental. It's seems as if this is used then in the short term if it made the clutch slip then it wouldn't be removed by changing the oil back to non moly type. So I would try to avoid oils with that ingredient.
Most of the oils specified for use after about 2004 have things like ZDDP removed to avoid contamination of exhaust after treatment devices and reduce the effectiveness of the cats or dpf kit used on cars. I think it's worthwhile avoiding these as the replacement seems to be moly although there is nowhere I can see that will really nail this component down. It's also considered in emissions driven decisions that the removal of ZDDP (primarily used to protect cams in older engines) will result in shorter life of these components. They dismiss this on the basis that they will last long enough and anyway a significant failure after the end of warranty will ultimately lead to a newer and more efficient vehicle being bought. It takes no account of the field we are talking about as they really couldn't care about old engines.
It's hard to get any real hard data about some of the things that concern us, but useful if we can unearth things that would give improved protection.
-
K2-K6
What bikes do you run [is the clue in your user name ?] also what oil do you use ?
-
My name here is from those two 750 models but they are not currently running. I've been looking after things like this since the 1970s when there was much less choice of decent oils when now there are loads.
Right now I have a 1984 cbx750 on the road which I've been running on Mobil 2000 semi synthetic which is a 10w40 oil. This motor has hydraulic valve adjusters, incorporates an oil cooler as standard and also (I think it's maybe the first general production bike with one) a slipper clutch. That is a car oil but the clutch has no signs of slipping under load and it's a pretty banzai powerband for the age of bike. It takes off about 7000rpm and if you're not quick enough to change up you'll hit the rev limiter at about 11200rpm it first and second. It's output is about 94bhp.
Are you after a recommendation for something or to discuss further?
I do think it's fascinating area to discuss, but it is coloured by many aspects of oil marketing speak rather than engineering principles.
Just the statement of "friction modifiers" amuses me as the oil in it's entirety is a friction modifier, which is exactly why we use it in engines!
-
As you can see from my avatar I have a fully restored /rebuilt K6 café racer style.
I am using Motul 5100 semi synth' 15w50.but it is quite expensive which is not really an issue,
But after seeing this very cheap oil on the forum I was just wondering [without getting into too much technical jargen] if it its good enough as some members are saying
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-Oil-Triple-QX-Premium-SAE-10W40-Part-Semi-Synthetic-5L-A3-B3-B4-5-Litre-/400698136407?hash=item5d4b785757:g:YpIAAMXQyY1TVkaX
-
Interesting how the pack states that it is for Petrol and Diesel vehicles given the earlier comments about the additives in oil for diesel vehicles.
Personally I have been using this stuff:
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=209§or=Motorbike
It is a motorcycle-specific oil; you can pick it up for a bit over £20 for 4 litres which is fine by me.
-
I was certainly thinking along the lines of modified engines in my answers as I believe you are taking it toward considering how to look after something that could have elevated torque and heat loadings. In that case it's relevant to look into what you could do.
For standard engines that don't deviate from normal running the demands are really not that great.
Bryanj offers some really good advice on oil which I wouldn't argue with or his reasoning as you don't need to spend alot of money to look after them.
I'd view them like this,; I don't believe any of these 4cyl Hondas have an intrinsic problem regarding lubrication. They seem to have got their R And D bang on if you consider the bearing sizes, cam lobes, gear design etc and how long they have lasted, as a result they don't need anything special in the way of oil spec to look after them.
BUT categorically they need clean oil above any other criteria, so whatever you use you need to make sure it's kept up to scratch to avoid wear.
Common with any carburettored engine with very basic choke to get them going. If you have a high proportion of cold starts relative to proper warmed up hot running, then you'll prematurely contaminate any oil you choose with unburnt fuel, condensation and various byproducts of combustion, principly acids as I understand it, making any starting specification of oil fairly academic. It will, when contaminated sufficiently fail to do what you are asking of it.
The Motul you are using is a very good oil but you're probably going to have to discard it way before you've got any value back from it so you might as well spend less and change it more often.
Bit of an odd habit is smelling the oil (Yeh I know I should probably belong to oil sniffers anonymous) ;) but if you go and smell the new oil in the bottle to calibrate your nose, then take the dipstick out of the bike and smell it........ Usually you'll get varying degree of petrol.
Many of these bikes unless used more extensively will be the same, and it doesn't do them any good.
It all depends on personal attitude to synthetics (now there's another whole area of discussion) and if they are appropriate, but you can get 5ltrs of VW 505.01 spec oil (in gold coloured container from asda) for £13 currently that I think is a really good oil which I've used in many of the engine's I'm looking after. With low bike usage you'll probably be changing it in less the a thousand miles anyway as it'll reek of petrol.
-
Oil is a bit like some people recon Nike trainers are the best, a trainer is a trainer to me. Just think about the trade, mine comes in big containers with TRADE on the side, as long as it is to the right spec, I am happy. Change your oil often, as most engine damage is because the oil breaks down.
-
Good shout Trigger
Same as the Grub in Sainsburys & their "Taste The Difference" products that are almost double the price of the standard Sainsbury Brand...the prices & the packaging are the only "Real Difference". >:(
Thanks also to K2-K6 !
Greebo
-
.... as long as it is to the right spec, I am happy.
Trigger, I think you could have unwittingly struck the metallic pin squarely on the cranium here.
What is the right spec? Oils have changed vastly since the bikes were new 40+ years ago.
The original specifications for my 400/4 call for an SAE 10W-40 oil of Service SE Grade. Nowadays this is referred to as the API specification; in 1977 SE was the highest specification available. My understanding is that within reason the later higher specifications supersede the earlier ones.
The Millers oil I referred to has a 'Performance Profile' of API: SG, SH, SJ and JASO: MA / MA2. The JASO classifications seem to be for motorcycle-specific oils. The Millers oil is suitable for off-road, on-road and track motorbikes, and is for use in motorbikes fitted with oil immersed 'wet' clutches. I am happy it is right for my bike.
If I look at the Triple QX oil in Greebo's link I see it is classified A3 B3 B4. These specifications are for car and light van petrol and diesel engines. They may be perfectly suitable for use in bike engines but I can't link between the different sets of standards.
So my choice is to stick with a motorcycle-specific oil. It doesn't cost me a great deal more, and as I only run the one bike the difference isn't multiplied several times. as it would be for others on here.
So, bottom line (literally), what standard/specification would you be looking for in your 'Trade' oil?
-
Considering the service change of 1500 miles, when i also think the filter should be changed, there is no need for the extra expense of the "modern" motorcycle" oils which even the manufacturers like Fuchs admit to being standard oils in a more expensive can
-
Nowt wrong with Nike trainers, Trigger. I have got through 2 pairs of black Nike Air trainers, wearing them almost every day, in nearly 20 years.
The first pair went round the world, up Vesuvius and Sydney Harbour bridge, inside the Great Pyramid at Giza, and are now the 'garage' pair though one of the soles is hanging off a bit, nothing Evostick wouldn't fix.
The second pair the wife got me for Xmas a couple of years ago, she quailed at the price, but admits no present she has ever bought me before or since gets used almost every day. I do (almost always) wear boots on the bike, though, seen a few shredded feet over the years.
As for oil, in the CB750 I use the straight forward 20/50 dinosaur oil the bike was designed for, as others have said it's not in long enough for modern witchcraft to make a difference. However why are the intervals so short? Heat in an aircooled engine, or design?
My 911 is air cooled, and that gets 12,000 miles per oil change according to my handbook (though I do it a damn sight more often than that). Apparently if you use modern fully synthetic oil it will pour out of oil seals that weren't designed to contain anything so slippery.
I thought I was saving money on the Harley by ignoring the bullcrap marketing ads that tell you only to use the expensive Genuine H-D oil and nothing else (oddly, it says in the manual to use oil designed for a diesel at a pinch, maybe it's a detergent thing) I used any old multigrade, but did change it at regular intervals. Then at 23k miles the ground and hardened bearing surface of the crankpin turned to glitter. :o It gets the real thing again now, I have other cranks to change. :)
A wise man told me many years ago 'oil is cheaper than bearings'.
-
Considering the service change of 1500 miles, when i also think the filter should be changed, there is no need for the extra expense of the "modern" motorcycle" oils which even the manufacturers like Fuchs admit to being standard oils in a more expensive can
Are you telling me Bryan, that those 1 ltr bottles you see in dealerships on the top self at £12 is the same grade that comes in those 205 ltr blue drums is the same stuff. Well I never ;D ;D ;D
Now it looks like the Great oil debate has moved on to the Great foot wear debate :)
-
That expensive stuff in lovely bottles isn't up there on the top shelf for nothing, pure oil porn, the luscious golden little beauty. ;)
-
.... as long as it is to the right spec, I am happy.
Trigger, I think you could have unwittingly struck the metallic pin squarely on the cranium here.
What is the right spec? Oils have changed vastly since the bikes were new 40+ years ago.
The original specifications for my 400/4 call for an SAE 10W-40 oil of Service SE Grade. Nowadays this is referred to as the API specification; in 1977 SE was the highest specification available. My understanding is that within reason the later higher specifications supersede the earlier ones.
The Millers oil I referred to has a 'Performance Profile' of API: SG, SH, SJ and JASO: MA / MA2. The JASO classifications seem to be for motorcycle-specific oils. The Millers oil is suitable for off-road, on-road and track motorbikes, and is for use in motorbikes fitted with oil immersed 'wet' clutches. I am happy it is right for my bike.
If I look at the Triple QX oil in Greebo's link I see it is classified A3 B3 B4. These specifications are for car and light van petrol and diesel engines. They may be perfectly suitable for use in bike engines but I can't link between the different sets of standards.
So my choice is to stick with a motorcycle-specific oil. It doesn't cost me a great deal more, and as I only run the one bike the difference isn't multiplied several times. as it would be for others on here.
So, bottom line (literally), what standard/specification would you be looking for in your 'Trade' oil?
Yes Chris, it is a little confusing as they keep moving the goal posts with new numbers and letters.
Had a bit of time toady and found some strong glasses to read the small print.
10W-40 Semi Trade Premium has ACEA A3, B3, B4, API SL/CF, MB229.1
Mineral Trade has API CF-4: AC EC A3, B3
Back in the 90's we used Castrol GTX on every Japanese bike .
-
Just continuing on from this post, the Honda manual states sae 10w-40 castrol gtx. I haven't done any further research as yet as I won't change the oil for 2-3 months. That said is the castrol gtx the, the oil that is generally advertised and used on cars etc ? Or is there a specific motorcycle gtx version ?.
I'm running a cb750 k6, it will probably run less than a 1000 ( gentle) miles per annum so looking for a decent value oil ( recommendation) - as I guess putting a premium quality oil in could be a waste and in addition may perhaps play havoc with oiled seals I suspect ?????
Any advice welcome.
-
The 750 needs oil changes more frequently than the Porsche because the gearbox hammers the crap out of it
-
So there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to which is the best oil for the cb750, should we use part synthetic or non synthetic, premium priced or economy, i'm just as confused now as when i first started to read this thread :-\, and i was hoping there was a consensus as to the best oil to use,
-
So there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to which is the best oil for the cb750, should we use part synthetic or non synthetic, premium priced or economy, i'm just as confused now as when i first started to read this thread :-\, and i was hoping there was a consensus as to the best oil to use,
You will get at least 28 different answers on what oil to use and at least 100 different reasons why to use a certain type. We use Trade Premium 10w40 Mineral and Trade Premium 10w40 semi synthetic, not mixed together !!. Its as cheap as chips but does the job just fine. We find both are good, the mineral needs changing every 1000 miles, the semi, yearly. It is the frequency of changing the oil that saves these engines. Expensive motorcycle engine specific oil is a waste of money, its just oil companies advertising their wares hoping that motorcycle riding muppets will fall for it.
Edit......before anyone asks we use Mineral for running in and then on to the semi synthetic.
-
So there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to which is the best oil for the cb750, should we use part synthetic or non synthetic, premium priced or economy, i'm just as confused now as when i first started to read this thread :-\, and i was hoping there was a consensus as to the best oil to use,
You will get at least 28 different answers on what oil to use and at least 100 different reasons why to use a certain type. We use Trade Tec Premium 10w40 Mineral and Trade Tec Premium 10w40 semi synthetic, not mixed together !!. Its as cheap as chips but does the job just fine. We find both are good, the mineral needs changing every 1000 miles, the semi, yearly. It is the frequency of changing the oil that saves these engines. Expensive motorcycle engine specific oil is a waste of money, its just oil companies advertising their wares hoping that motorcycle riding muppets will fall for it.
try this brand,you sometimes get 2 for 1 offer
I use it ,and it works great
https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-parts/engine-parts/engine-parts1/engine-oils/?521776011&1&cc5_245
-
I don't get why people worry about what oil they should use.
Cheap as chips and change often. they will out last you and I.
Oil in the 70's was crap and they lasted forever.
-
I agree - I think we all focus too much on different oil makes. Most reputable brands will be fine provided its got the right viscosity
-
Just to confuse things more my new van has just had its first service at 21000 miles and the manual states that viscosity is not important but quality is.
-
Straight forward semi synth 10w 40 motorcycle oil for me..... any brand as long as its from a reputable supplier (ie not re packaged spry crisp-n-dry) ;D
-
Doesn't Honda say 20w 50 for the 750. ;)
I do run both the 550 & 750 on Semi 10w 40
-
The viscosity for all of these Honda engines is 30 when hot, and most other petrol engines from the 1960s until well into this century.
All the multigrade specs do is cover ambient heat range. As an example 0C degrees ambient would be served by 20w in Honda's own published data. 15w will take you down to minus 5C and 10w will get you down to about minus 15C.
The "w" viscosity (well I don't think it's eventually viscosity at all, more the ability to crank the engine at a certain temperature at starting speed) and the hot viscosity are nothing like the same measurement so that when you delve deeper it all gets quite weird.
As already stated though, oil condition trumps virtually everything on these engines. It really has no impact what the oil costs originally if it's diluted/contaminated to a point it doesn't maintain component separation.
-
You old boys worry toooo much. A change is the most important thing, I can't tell you what i use, its a Trade secret ;) . W stands for Winter ;D ;D ;D
-
I thought W was for wallpaper paste Iv been adding 10% to 40% oil ;D ;D
-
Yours sounds like it is running on wallpaper paste ;D ;D
-
Extra smooth I hope
-
Extra smooth I hope
So you are the muppet that keeps dumping wallpaper paste on roundabouts ;D ;D
-
Muppet :o
I don't have a puppet modelled on me. ;)