Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: paulbaker1954 on October 30, 2017, 01:04:47 PM

Title: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on October 30, 2017, 01:04:47 PM
Just taken the plunge and ordered the full kit with Micro coils after months of deliberating !!

I have a question re plug caps mine are NGK purply colour ones (sorry for the crap description)

Are these OK for use with the BOyer system? Is there an easy way to check them?

Cheers all
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on October 30, 2017, 01:39:18 PM
Just check they're 5kΩ, unless you run "R" sparkplugs.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on October 30, 2017, 01:49:34 PM
Cheers Deltarider just what I needed  :)
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Johnwebley on October 30, 2017, 02:30:14 PM
the Boyer gives a great fat spark,(or at least mine does)

 and seems to make my engine run sweetly ,with even low down pull !!!

 I run slightly larger plug gaps,
also the resistor plug caps can burn out with age,seriously increasing resistance,so check the reading
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on October 30, 2017, 03:59:21 PM
The Boyer systems appear to be well regarded generally, be interesting to see what you feel about it when installed Paul.

John,  I was wondering about your decision to increase the plug gaps,  is it something recommended for this system? For a long time I've thought in a similar direction but more recently come to doubt that and believe I don't want to do that now.

Nigel.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: kevski on October 30, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
These boyer systems are really good, i have used them on all my bikes with the exception of my Big Zeds, there is absolutely no reason to increase spark plug gap as the original gap is set for optimum performance and efficiency, if any thing it would be detrimental, you can use resistor caps as long as you don't use resistor plugs.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Johnwebley on October 30, 2017, 05:33:27 PM
The Boyer systems appear to be well regarded generally, be interesting to see what you feel about it when installed Paul.

John,  I was wondering about your decision to increase the plug gaps,  is it something recommended for this system? For a long time I've thought in a similar direction but more recently come to doubt that and believe I don't want to do that now.

Nigel.

 my feeling was it generated a big fat spark,so it should give a better burn with a wider gap,
the sohc heads are pld fashioned Hemi shapes,not pent roof ,so could help.

 and anyway,it seems to work with me
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on October 30, 2017, 06:31:02 PM
I was just curious to get another informed point of view John as you're happy with how yours runs.

I've felt the same with regards to combustion chamber shape and fatest spark theory until recently.

I'll not drop it onto paul's thread though but put it somewhere else.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: petermigreen on October 30, 2017, 07:56:03 PM
Thanks for updating Paul. I'm still umming on whether to get the kit as bikes running good on points. Let us know how you get on once fitted and run.
Peter
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on October 31, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
If you look at the wiring scheme of your bike, you'll understand that an electronic ignition is nothing but a switch, so don't have too high expectations. A transistor just happens to switch faster. Some folks claim improvement over stock, but often forget to mention they've changed sparkplugs at the same occasion. Mind you: a fresh set of plugs can work miracles. My homebuilt transistor module gave me a noticeable improvement at idle and at high rpm, especially near red zone. Mid range rpm, mwah, I'd say it's the same as stock. Below a pic of testing my then repaired transistor ignition and a pic of how you can check your spark is at least 7mm. The spark in a running engine is determined by the wideness of the electrode gap and the hellish 'atmospheric' conditions inside the combustion chamber. The sparkplug only has to ignite a very small amount of mixture between its electrodes. The burning flamefront will take it from there. 
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 31, 2017, 08:37:36 AM
Agreed Deltarider....  for a much juicier spark you need CDi. One of these days I am going to build another unit for my 400/4 like the one I designed back in the late 70's but was basically cribbed from the original 400 DC inverter driven Kwak H1 triple design from the late '60's. My 400/4 currently has the Boyer system that was on it when I bought the complete bike for a hundred quid in 1985 from a Brit bike dealer who's words were something like "Give us a hundred quid  and for Gods sake  get that Jap Crap out of here ...it's bad for my reputation."  Like all of that electronics tackle by the way...a man after my own heart ...  you'll be joining Anoraks Corner next ... hope that's not the kitchen table or you may get yourself in bother  ;D
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on October 31, 2017, 08:42:23 AM
Ha, I'd be interested to learn about your CDI, so keep us posted. Will it be a multispark?
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 31, 2017, 07:40:25 PM
Ha, I'd be interested to learn about your CDI, so keep us posted. Will it be a multispark?

My 1970's one wasn't but a possibility with modern  micro-controllers  etc........  this  looks to be well designed and documented and is multi-spark.  :)

http://m1n1.de/html/umcdi.html
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on October 31, 2017, 08:40:37 PM
Ha, interesting stuff and that in a wonderful Alec Issigonis setting. I have to study it a bit more in detail but just two sparks at around 4500 rpm... I dunno.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on October 31, 2017, 09:26:46 PM
Interesting reading Ash, the section about multiple sparks to extend the ignite time is particularly relevant to what I was saying back there about plug gap.

If you use a wider plug gap (on non cdi systems) than idea,l then it shortens the spark duration,  which affects how the mixture propagates a flame front.

If you don't get the cylinder to burn as designed then you head towards combustion problems.

Generally it's written that the fatter and hotter the spark is,  then the better system you've got. Some of the things the ignition has to achieve run counter to that.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on November 11, 2017, 04:20:56 PM
Well it’s all installed and running and I am REALLY pleased

Just been for a 2 hour thrash round Cheshire to test

Bike definitely starts easer ( but that was probably more down to 45 year old coils!!) and definitely smoother tickover

Also just seems to run smoother right through the rev range

Definitely a worthwhile upgrade with the bonus of less maintenance

😀😀😀😀😀😀

Only negative is it’s a bit DIY to fit, I used some Al bar fitted each side on the original coil mounts to fix the micro coils (thanks Roy Hall for pictures) which worked nicely and gave a neat installation. The blue box then fitted nicely on top of the bars
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Rob62 on November 11, 2017, 09:23:20 PM
Glad to hear you’re happy with the installation... Ive been thinking that the Boyer ignition is a worthwhile mod and may go for it myself.. You opted for the version which uses new coils i see. There is another option using the original coils but as you mention they are old and may not be the best way froward.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on November 13, 2017, 08:31:42 AM
Hi Rob,
I just reckoned that changing 45 year old coils was never going to be a bad idea and looks like I was proved right, much fatter spark and starting performance.

Great investment go for it.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Rob62 on November 13, 2017, 08:42:43 PM
Cheers Paul i think i will.... did you buy yours on-line? If so from where? I’ve looked on the boyer website for dealers and they give me a choice of one and when i look on their website there is no mention of boyer.... i suppose i could always ring them but i always like to browse on line if possible.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: watty51 on November 13, 2017, 08:56:47 PM
I sent Boyer a email about ordering a kit off them and this is the email i had back today. Hope this helps.

Morning,
 
You can purchase these direct from ourselves.
 
You can either call us on the number below selecting option 1 for sales and pay with your card details.   Alternatively, I can send you a PayPal invoice, but just to advise you that there is a small fee of £2.50 for this.
 
The cost of this kit that comes with high powered mini coils is £218.46 which includes VAT and postage to UK.
 
I look forward to hearing from you.
 
Kind regards
 

Karen
Sales
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Rob62 on November 13, 2017, 09:53:03 PM
Thanks Watty!

Thats perfect....
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on November 13, 2017, 09:55:03 PM
What does 'high powered mini coils' mean?
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on November 13, 2017, 10:03:20 PM
Yes I ordered direct from Boyer, delivered next day. Great service
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: mike the bike on November 14, 2017, 08:13:49 AM
I was wondering what micro coils were too.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on November 14, 2017, 08:15:23 AM
What does 'high powered mini coils' mean?

Great question the Boyer site mutters something about them being controlled by current rather than voltage, also the 2 coils are wired in series as opposed to parallel.

I'm a mechanical engineer so all this volts and electrons stuff sometimes gets me a bit lost. All I know is the end result is a better spark, better starting than my aged Honda coils as I said before.

Be interested to know more about the science if anyone knows (sounds like one for Ash to weigh in on !!)

Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: Rob62 on November 14, 2017, 12:55:22 PM
What does 'high powered mini coils' mean?
Lol... I’m not an electronics expert but i bet what boyer mean is the coils are smaller than the originals (hence the mini) and have at least as much output (hence the high powered).... just a guess though as i havent seen them....
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: kevski on November 14, 2017, 02:19:48 PM
Voltage is speed of current, current is amps, simplistic look at it,  boyer does give a brief explanation of the coils and why they are needed with certain systems relatively easy to understand if you don't try to over think it.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on November 14, 2017, 02:34:22 PM
The bit Hondaman wrote about this is interesting.

By reducing the resistance of the coils,  they have a higher "output" but usually a shorter duration spark time. Nothing comes free in physics, you have to decide what you want to trade off one against another.

Honda,  along with their ignition component suppliers,  designed spark time of about 1.5 milliseconds because of the combustion chamber design and burn characteristics,  understanding if you want to deviate from that is relevant to what systems you use.

The Boyer may fulfil that,  but does anyone have that spec to compare?

"Higher output" is of course an easy sell,  may not gain much in reality.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: deltarider on November 14, 2017, 03:20:21 PM
Quote
The bit Hondaman wrote about this is interesting.
By reducing the resistance of the coils,  they have a higher "output" but usually a shorter duration spark time.
I don't see why this would be the case, nor have I seen any proof of this and what to think of the word "usually". I apologize for overthinking this. ;)
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on November 14, 2017, 03:47:46 PM
It's this bit here that I'm looking at.....

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,113338.25.html

See what you think.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: K2-K6 on November 14, 2017, 03:49:52 PM
Apologies,  it's on that thread but in the post from HM for the 27th may that he elaborates about this area of ignition performance.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: jon stead on December 03, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
Cheers Paul i think i will.... did you buy yours on-line? If so from where? I’ve looked on the boyer website for dealers and they give me a choice of one and when i look on their website there is no mention of boyer.... i suppose i could always ring them but i always like to browse on line if possible.

Hi, I’ve got a full Boyer system to sell.

http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,14591.0.html
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: paulbaker1954 on December 06, 2017, 08:51:33 AM
Jeez John wish i'd have known  would have saved me over £100  >:( >:(

Lesson learnt is ask on forum first before buying stuff as many of us have stuff lying around !!
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: jon stead on December 06, 2017, 07:09:04 PM
Jeez John wish i'd have known  would have saved me over £100  >:( >:(

Lesson learnt is ask on forum first before buying stuff as many of us have stuff lying around !!

If it makes you feel any better, I only come confirmed yesterday that the ignition system I have is faultless and would be of use to others.
Title: Re: Boyer Ignition - Again
Post by: andut on December 07, 2017, 08:57:22 AM
Hi Jon,

I'd be interested if it's still available  - pm sent !

Andy
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal