Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB750 => Topic started by: philward on December 02, 2017, 10:28:05 PM

Title: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: philward on December 02, 2017, 10:28:05 PM
I've got to shorten the clutch cable on the CR project - have had custom made rear brake cable made by Venhill (as brake obviously a bit important!) but they have a minimum charge and I just need the cable shortening a few inches. My research points to a special solder - anybody got any experience in soldering cable nipples and any recommendations?
Cheers
Phil
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: hairygit on December 02, 2017, 10:52:39 PM
If you have an old type cycle shop nearby (don't bother with places like Halfords) they may be able to point you in the right direction, or even do it for you. Another possibility could be to use a solderless nipple (one with a built in clamping screw) as fitted to the bottom of the cable it would be hidden from view. I've used them a few times over the years for mates that put stupidly high bars on bikes.

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Tomb on December 02, 2017, 11:48:27 PM
My experiences with Venhill on anything "special" is poor, they are only interested in £££ for standard stuff whilst pretending to cater for Specials.

If you need to do your own its more to do with the spread of the cable in the nipple countersink/counterbore than which kind of solder you use. Get that right and all works Ok.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 02, 2017, 11:58:09 PM
My experiences with Venhill on anything "special" is poor, they are only interested in £££ for standard stuff whilst pretending to cater for Specials.

If you need to do your own its more to do with the spread of the cable in the nipple countersink/counterbore than which kind of solder you use. Get that right and all works Ok.

+1 .... that's what I do. I met a bloke at an autojumble last year selling really long silver grey cables from Lambrettas and ferrules, nipples etc to make up 60's style honda cables yourself but never got  his details  :(
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on December 03, 2017, 12:07:11 AM
I've never had a problem with ordinary solder, make sure your cable is free of grease and clean before attempting to solder. You will need either a blow torch or a very big iron. to make sure the solder runs properly into the cable and nipple.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Bryanj on December 03, 2017, 12:08:50 AM
Try and find an old style dealer who will probably have assorted solder on nipples, you should find a small hole for the steel inner to go through and on one end of it a larger concentric hole you need to mushroom the inner strands to fit the larger hole then warm the nipple and cable till you can fill the hole with ordinary multicore solder. As an ex MOT tester I would never pass a brake cable with a solderless nipple
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on December 03, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
Plenty on good old ebay others are available

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KX12-9-32-x-1-4-BSA-TRIUMPH-AJS-MOTORCYCLE-BRASS-UNIVERSAL-CABLE-BARREL-NIPPLE/231291201997?epid=1254400299&hash=item35da07a9cd:g:e40AAMXQMmJRSa4h
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Woodside on December 03, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
+ 1 or 2 or 3 what ever it is now...
just splay the cable strands out in the nipple amd flow - flood with solder so its locked in
used to do this with push bike cables when needed years back in my dads garage ....and continued on various motorbikes todate...
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: paul G on December 03, 2017, 10:14:00 AM
I did mine with a solder pot and plumbing flux as it says on venhill web site worked a treat.
As other posters have said splay out the strands.
If you go on Venhill web site there is a guide telling you how to do it. :) :)
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: philward on December 03, 2017, 11:34:29 AM
Thanks everyone - really helpful. I have looked at youtube but they mostly say don't use ordinary solder but based on your wealth of experience, I''ll have a go. I agree about Venhil, I bought all the components to make up the custom back brake cable for the CR (based on their telephone guidance) then made up the cable so I knew it was right - then sent it off the Venhill for soldering expecting tp pay their quoted minimum charge for crimping the cable ferrals and soldering the nipples. They made up a new cable, charged me £48 (their minimum made up cable cost) and returned all the parts I sent them! When they rang for payment and I spoke to the 'engineer', he said he prefers to make them up himself - and basically take it or leave it. Won't use them again (although their brake line components are good).
Many thanks again
Phil
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Tomb on December 03, 2017, 11:49:04 AM
I built a HD chop (not for me) which needed extra long clutch cable for fitment to the Harley clutch lever, Venhill made up the cable and sent it but minus the end that fits the Harley lever as "we don't stock those fittings", and charged me lots for an unfinished cable that was no use at all.

I won't use them again.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: neat street on December 03, 2017, 12:56:04 PM
As already said splay the cable, but just as important is to make sure the nipple and cable get hot enough for the solder to `weld` to both parts! Place a good coating of flux on both parts and would suggest a small gas blow torch with a small focused flame

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Micro-Butane-Gas-Micro-Blow-Torch-Lighter-Jet-Chef-Blowtorch-Cooker-Tool-Black/263122421306?hash=item3d4351863a:g:1W8AAOSwj85ZgzM1
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Yamahawk on December 05, 2017, 04:28:41 PM
Jim, my cable guy at Homer's Cycle in Toledo, uses silver solder, and a small butane torch in the vise, and he has built me many cable, cheap. I go to him for all my stuff. Flux, heat, and solder your cable and nipple with silver solder, it has a higher tensile strength than regular 50/50 or lead free solder.
Charlie
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: mike the bike on December 05, 2017, 05:42:20 PM
+1 on the silver solder and a decent flux.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Tomb on December 05, 2017, 08:41:03 PM
+1 more, but its bloody expensive >:(
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Yamahawk on December 06, 2017, 02:47:59 AM
+1 more, but its bloody expensive >:(
Yeah, silver solder ain't cheap, the price of precious metals being what it is today...
Hehe what about Maxwell's silver hammer?  :D I bet that's a pretty penny too!
Charlie
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Jore on December 07, 2017, 01:38:33 AM
I've used regular solder for sweating pipes on the clutch of my bike without issues, I first make a mold with wood and drill a breather hole on the side, I melt some flux in to it and then add the  cable prior to the melted solder.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: philward on February 02, 2018, 04:02:26 PM
Just wanted to post a recommend for cable making service. Earlier in the post a few members commented at the price of Venhills cable making. (and I agree based on the cost of them making me a back brake cable for my CR Rep). I have just used Cabletec of Sutton in Ashfield and they have minimum labour costs that are a tenner and the service and quality is excellent
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on February 02, 2018, 09:05:53 PM
Whilst silver soldering may look like it does a better job and run better, it does have more wettability, invariably what will happen is the cable will be overheated with the torch altering the structure of the cable and weakening it making it more likely to break just as it comes out of the nipple. Steel ropes and wire cables should not be taken to temps above 350C. You do not need to use such high temps if using soft solder or white metal.
If you heat the cable until it reaches only blue in colour it will already be at approx 300C . Dark Grey and heading to Black and you are over 425C. Use as little heat as possible but ensure a good flow of solder.
Splay the cable end ensure it is grease free and add little flux. As always with soldering cleanliness is next to godliness.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: philward on February 02, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
Moorey, that is exactly what happened when I tried it with silver solder! As a result I sent it to Cabletec
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: paul G on February 02, 2018, 11:40:14 PM
It's quite simple if you use a solder pot and bog standard plumbing flux.
You do need to try and create the birds cage or something similar.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on February 03, 2018, 08:02:21 AM
It's quite simple if you use a solder pot and bog standard plumbing flux.
You do need to try and create the birds cage or something similar.

What do you mean by birds cage.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: paul G on February 03, 2018, 08:16:56 AM
It's quite simple if you use a solder pot and bog standard plumbing flux.
You do need to try and create the birds cage or something similar.

What do you mean by birds cage.
Have a quick look on Venhill's web site and it shows you.
Just some way of splaying out the cable.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on February 03, 2018, 10:17:20 AM
I have had a look and can see why they would use that tool in a production environment, but it is perfectly good enough to splay out the end of the cable.
Many moons ago I was taught about wire ropes and cables at British Ropes Wakefield, back then British ropes were a massive company. Anyway contrary to what people think, there is actually very little or no tinning happens between the wire and the solder. The joint relies on friction for the wire not to pull out of the nipple, not a bond between solder and wire. The solder flows between the cleaned wires and as it cools it contracts and grips the wires. The contraction of the solder  on solidifying and cooling to atmospheric temperature produces compressional forces sufficient to develop a frictional resistance of the order of 700 lb. per square inch of wire surface. This is on a straight wire. Slightly bending or curving the wires will increase this frictional force by up to 3 times.
This is why Silver Soldering is not advisable. Things just get too hot and damage the cable even though it does look to have done a better job.
May be of interest to some .
Funny how some things just stick with you. The destruction testing of big ropes was impressive. :)
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Tomb on February 03, 2018, 12:30:55 PM
Its a similar idea to the lead/wire security tags I use for Pressure Relief Valve work. The lead is crimped onto braided wire using a hand tool and is tough to shift. The bunching up or splaying of motorcycle cable ends assists the solder gripping.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 03, 2018, 12:44:58 PM
My Dad taught me how to solder nipples for my old Brit bikes. Originally he showed me how to splay the ends, heat it all up on the gas stove (whilst Mum wasn't looking) and then hold the solder on the end until it melted. Eventually he trusted me with the soldering iron (and the GPO issue solder and flux !!!) and I have never had one I have done myself fail.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on February 03, 2018, 03:19:49 PM
Not exactly a clutch cable but the largest one I have done was the ends on a 36mm diiameter rope 5 miles long weighing 44 tons for a mine in South Africa.
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on February 03, 2018, 05:21:27 PM
Not exactly a clutch cable but the largest one I have done was the ends on a 36mm diiameter rope 5 miles long weighing 44 tons for a mine in South Africa.
That's just showing off! ;)
Title: Re: Soldering Cable Nipples
Post by: Moorey on February 03, 2018, 05:36:59 PM
All in the past. I wouldn't want to play with that stuff these days, its just too dam heavy. Clutch cables are plenty big enough.  ;)
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