Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 12:14:43 PM
I'm preparing myself to open my engine head cover and put the missing dampeners back in where they are supposed to be, at the ends of the tensioner bow. As i'm thinking about the damages it could lead to if riding to long without them, I struggle to understand why do we have to slacken the bolt to adjust the tension:
A/ As the camchain wears loose, the bow isn't pushing anymore because the pushrod is kept in place by the tensioner bolt?
B/ As I'm riding hard, the cam chain push against the bow that is forcing back the pushrod that stays here, kept in place by the tensioner bolt?
C/ Both?
D/ You can't understand my french gibberish!
help me please,
Cheers!
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 15, 2020, 12:21:02 PM
Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 01:16:27 PM
My bike is 25000km old, around 16000 miles, the camchain should be ok for another 20000km, what do you think?
And if the bottom dampener is missing do you think I can stick it or attach it with a very thin copper wire or fishing line to the tensioner bow an drive it carefully in the horseshoe by the top of the engine?
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 15, 2020, 01:31:20 PM
Ok, thank you to make it clear, Julie!Can't comment on the cam chain as even though it's only done 16000 miles, who knows if the bike was ridden sensibly and had regular maintainace or has been thrashed everywhere. You always take a risk when trying to fit something down in the engine, it could fall off of the wire and get jammed down in the crank case somewhere. Why do you not have dampers fitted?.
My bike is 25000km old, around 16000 miles, the camchain should be ok for another 20000km, what do you think?
And if the bottom dampener is missing do you think I can stick it or attach it with a very thin copper wire or fishing line to the tensioner bow an drive it carefully in the horseshoe by the top of the engine?
Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 03:18:12 PM
The previous owner rode only a few hundred kms out of Paris with that 400. He told me the head gasket have been changed while valve gasket or guide (?) have been replaced, the bike was smoky and capricious.
The job have been done by a friend of him, a "professionnal". I'm pretty sure he forgot tu fit the dampers back when mounting the head, I'm also pretty sure that no serious professional was in the place as the whole bike was a mess of approximatively done job. Nothing broken, just a bike left to unaware people.
I've never seen smoke and she running great at first or second kick since I tuned her properly.
I figured out the missing parts after I put back everything together! :( Looking at cmsnl drawings, I saw the damper and I understand there is no damper in my bike, at least the top one!
Post by: mattsz on February 15, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 03:38:12 PM
I'll be naming my next CD "Smoky and Capricious"...
::)
Does it sound strange in english?
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 15, 2020, 04:01:43 PM
I wouldn’t wire the damper in case it falls off and I can’t think that there is enough clearance in the ‘bucket’ on the horseshoe for anything other than the damper block. New dampers are a good fit on the eye of the blade anyway. I think I would stick the damper to the lower end of the blade after removing any traces of oil, with something like ‘sticks like sh!t’ adhesive (hope it’s available in France!) and leave it to dry overnight before fitting. I don’t think a THIN smear of adhesive will prevent the small amount of angular movement needed and it will probably eventually let go when oily and hot.
How did you free up the horseshoe? Might be something we all need to know.
Ian
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 15, 2020, 04:02:56 PM
Sounds the perfect word to me 👍👍👍I'll be naming my next CD "Smoky and Capricious"...
::)
Does it sound strange in english?
Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 04:35:39 PM
I think I would stick the damper to the lower end of the blade after removing any traces of oil, with something like ‘sticks like sh!t’ adhesive (hope it’s available in France!) and leave it to dry overnight before fitting.
I got something like that in the tool box, it even sticks plastic on car paint, I will try that if the lower one is actually missing,
To free the horseshoe I did a bit like I read on this forum: a screwdriver in the pushroad hole in front of the engine just to feel the movement, and I pushed directly on the blade with my thumb. At first the blade was coming back with no response in the screwdriver so I pushed hard on that one, and the blade answered. Then I worked one to another, it took no long to make it work properly.
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on February 15, 2020, 04:39:25 PM
As long as they are female of course.
If your bike is male (mine is) then it’s either a “good old boy” or a “bastard”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on February 15, 2020, 05:14:36 PM
French language even makes that sound good over here ;D
Post by: hairygit on February 15, 2020, 05:21:02 PM
Capricious is a great word for our old bikes.Thought everyone of our generation called them "she"
As long as they are female of course.
If your bike is male (mine is) then it’s either a “good old boy” or a “bastard”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After all, they consume all your time, all your money, and still give you sh#i/ let you down when you really don't need it!
Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk
Post by: marroinia on February 15, 2020, 06:04:03 PM
Would the glue be, Bâtons comme de la merde?
French language even makes that sound good over here ;D
Colle comme la merde ::) it's a bit meaningless
Post by: Orcade-Ian on February 15, 2020, 06:18:57 PM
Would the glue be, Bâtons comme de la merde?
French language even makes that sound good over here ;D
Coming from Yorkshire I don’t understand the language - were they French letters you used?
I’ll get me coat!
Ian
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 15, 2020, 06:29:25 PM
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂Capricious is a great word for our old bikes.Thought everyone of our generation called them "she"
As long as they are female of course.
If your bike is male (mine is) then it’s either a “good old boy” or a “bastard”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After all, they consume all your time, all your money, and still give you sh#i/ let you down when you really don't need it!
Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk
Post by: mattsz on February 16, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
I'll be naming my next CD "Smoky and Capricious"...
::)
Does it sound strange in english?
Not strange... just unusual and, to my mind anyway, amusing to see those two words together. "Capricious" is a great word!
Carry on, marroinia, your English is 1000% better than my French will ever be!
Post by: marroinia on February 20, 2020, 01:12:59 PM
Unfortunetely, the chain is still noisy whatever the methode I try to tight it (set up at 1200rpm, set up while pushing on the kick, set up at few degrees after N*1 TDC...) I noticed a soft link on the camchain... best thing to do now is to replace that chain, I guess.
I hope I'm not to confident with the tensioner...
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 20, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
Post by: marroinia on February 20, 2020, 06:37:46 PM
Just to be sure that it's a soft link, there is no darker link on the original chain, is it?
Anyway I ordered a new chain with soft link, if still noisy then I'll have to put the engine on the table. :-\
Post by: marroinia on April 18, 2020, 08:39:16 PM
I finally replaced that camchain today.
The new chain is 63.7mm long when splitted, so was the one I removed...I feel like I spent time and money for nothing. It has been changed not long ago and that probably matches to head gasket change claimed by PO. Better be safe than sorry: the bike has a new camchain again... can't be bad -_-
Anyway, while playing around again with camchain tensionner, something poped up to my mind: I did a ride not long ago, after last time I opened the engine and post here, and deciced to "true" the tension to reduce camchain noise while engine hot, following normal procedure: noise became worst. Today, I noticed that the tension provided by the tensioner blade is stronger that the springs behind the pushrod.
When I screw the tensioner blade upper part [5] all the way down and untight the push rod bolt in front of engine [12]: the chain become loose.
I have to loosen the two screws [19] back around 6mm on the upper part [5] then lock the push rod bolt [12], then tighten the upper part to get proper tension on the chain.
I'm quiet lost here, the horse shoe isn't seized...did my tensioner blade become harder with age? Like it fossilized? Springs are too old with only 25000kms?
Anyone can help me?
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Bryanj on April 18, 2020, 09:09:12 PM
There are several things that happen
1 the springs pushing the horseshoe go weak
2 where the clamping bolt tightens on the flat on the rod it makes a little indent and when you loosen the bolt the retighten the end goes back into the indent already there
3 the tensioner plunger gets a little tight in its bore.
My method for tensioning is loosen the clamp bolt, put som weight onto to kickstart so that the engine is just about to turn then whilst holding this tension tighten the clamp bolt.
You can also remove the blanking cap and push on the rod end then tighten bolt but as you need to do that with engine running hands get hot on exhaust
Post by: billywingnut on April 18, 2020, 09:29:20 PM
Post by: Orcade-Ian on April 19, 2020, 09:13:46 AM
I’m nearing completion of the ‘Scottish’ 400/4 and needed to get pictures for the agreed value at policy renewal so I didn’t fit everything finally around the cam cover. Now I’ve finished zinc plating all of the cover bolts and other bits I decided to remove the cover for the new gasket, having read this post and thought I would investigate. I had already sorted the horseshoe when I had the thing completely apart and it was as free as a new one. I had NOS springs from years ago, new damper rubbers, new gen tensioner blade and new gen guide, together with a new genuine DS endless chain - everything Honda.
With the cam cover off, I loosened the adjuster and heard the whole thing move under spring tension. HOWEVER, just as Billy and Marroinia report there is still slack in the chain. I must admit, I’ve never checked the system this way before and not had problems. So what’s going on here?
Ian
Post by: Bryanj on April 19, 2020, 09:33:25 AM
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 19, 2020, 09:46:39 AM
Post by: taysidedragon on April 19, 2020, 10:07:25 AM
If all the components are serviceable a bit of camchain noise shouldn't be a problem. If it's too noisy I would suggest there is a problem with worn tensioner blades perhaps, or weak springs on the tensioner rod?
Post by: marroinia on April 19, 2020, 10:16:57 AM
When I removed the 2 bolts [19] it lift [5] up around 2 mm like said Billywingnut, I understand we need a bit of play especially when cold but I have no tension at all in my chain. The cam sprocket have angle play, giving to my opinion the erratic idle, knocking noise and random stall until engine shuts down.
The way i did tension by hand gives just a little slack in the chain and doesn't allow the cam sprocket to move around, I will give start today and see if everything sounds better.
Post by: taysidedragon on April 19, 2020, 10:24:00 AM
Post by: marroinia on April 19, 2020, 10:29:08 AM
I think I'm going to buy that special bolt that pushes on the tensioner rod and adjust by ear. I had the chain noise on all the rpm range after I tried to adjust in normal condition.
Post by: Orcade-Ian on April 19, 2020, 10:52:01 AM
As you say Bryan, not a very good system, but it did work and not sure Mr Honda would have been happy with people screwing down too hard on a bolt pushing the horseshoe instead.
Ian
Post by: marroinia on April 19, 2020, 04:27:25 PM