Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Sesman on October 20, 2021, 02:19:58 PM
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Just thought I’d showcase my new carbs from Gerben. Bought for a new cash strapped project to start on completion of the 550. His work is just brilliant and I’d recommend him for his replacement/exchange service.
Definitely better than my efforts.
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OOSH! :o details please!
I fancy some of that, they look phenomenal and a better carry on than I can do here. Im doing the motor so it'd be nice to relieve the workload some what I think. WELL DONE what a great parcel to come home to. :)
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Gerben can be found on eBay. Gerben 1956 or just type in CB550 Carburetor. Gerben work features elsewhere on this forum. Try the search function for more details.
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This was my effort on the 550. I prefer mine slightly as they retain the original yellow passivate finish. The real headache is the pivot bar, which is prone to corrosion and was originally hard chromed. I just cleaned mine up and varnished it.
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Ahh, right. I took my ‘hard chrome’ cue from a forum member. Looking back I think he had them removed for hard chroming…so your suggestion they are satin chromed is probably correct. I’ll be doing the same.
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Why hasn't he sorted the actuating spindle out, he's clearly had them apart but put a rusty spindle back in place. Seems a little cheap to me for the price he charges.
Ohhh jinx
Oh and I don't think they are hard chromed, they mark and rust far too easily for that to be the case, I think they are satin chromed.
My 400/4 Gerben ones, which I must admit I bought from a member on here, not directly, work and look great but being picky:-
a) He used pattern brassware (I think he only fits original Keihin now though).
b) He silver painted the alloy link casting, which is not standard.
c) Some of the JIS screws were replated slightly nadgered ones.
d) He only fitted the plastic air-screw covers to the two outer carbs.
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This was my effort on the 550. I prefer mine slightly as they retain the original yellow passivate finish. The real headache is the pivot bar, which is prone to corrosion and was originally hard chromed. I just cleaned mine up and varnished it.
Nope, cant find any reference on ebay as a seller or anything, same on here only the three mentions above, must be me then ::)
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This was my effort on the 550. I prefer mine slightly as they retain the original yellow passivate finish. The real headache is the pivot bar, which is prone to corrosion and was originally hard chromed. I just cleaned mine up and varnished it.
Nope, cant find any reference on ebay as a seller or anything, same on here only the three mentions above, must be me then ::)
gerbenhilly@hotmail.com
His full name is Gerben van der Meer and he is in Almere Holland.
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Thanks Julie ;) 8)
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Yep, that’s him. Decent bloke to deal with IMHO
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This bloke.
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It's not without hesitation I present a link to the first of six videos on Youtube dealing with the assembly of a set of Honda CB500 carbs. Hesitation, because I cannot recommend separating the carbs from the rack. Anyway, out of curiosity it's been done by a German, who took his carbs completely apart, to even the smallest parts. I've so learned about the why of all the components and why Honda went to such great length, to arrive at an ultimately reliable and robust rack of carbs. Marco's carbs are the 649A type, we had in continental Europe, but the videos equally deal with the 627B, 022A, 069A and 087A variants, which after all only differ in jetting. The content even applies to the carbs on the CB350/400F models.
I don't know if the German language is an obstacle, but Marco's voice is pleasantly quiet, modest and lacks the Hi guys hysteria we have to endure in other vids. Although - again - I cannot recommend separating the carbs, the videos are certainly worth watching. Marco is a pleasant person and just watching his work, gave me a sort of Zen experience. Excellent stuff for a rainy afternoon. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXD7F4q72M4
It's the first of six and in the serie no detail has escaped Marco's attention.
If you're interested, you may also watch his vids dealing with the disassembly. I know the language can be a problem, but his vids are outstanding, the best I've come across. If you urgently need to know what is said at a particular moment, I may be of help.
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Thanks for the links but like Ken, I have no issue with taking them off the rack and in a million bits to get a thorough clean. As long as all the same bits that came off the individual carb, go back on that carb there's really no issue. Its not a hard job, just one full of concentration. I only asked as i might ship this set out as time might be a problem because we might be moving and if i'm gonna start it, I have to get it somewhere near before we move. Im not into shuffling stuff about half done, thats how bits get lost!
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[...] I have no issue with taking them off the rack and in a million bits to get a thorough clean. [...]
And that's my point. At least you're open about it: your desire for 'a thorough clean'. My objective was and is to inform others, there are no technical reasons to take carbs thus far apart. Most of us here are amateurs and may mistakenly conclude it's a good procedure to overhaul carbs.
There is also this. Clean and - no doubt - polished carbs, will only be a temporary achievement, good for a concours presentation. Carbs wil be dusty and dull again in no time, even more after a few rides. I've posted that link (there are six on the assembly and three about the disassembly), because Marco clearly demonstrates there's no technical need to do, what he has done. Nonetheless his vids contain good info on how these carbs work. In the process he shows how to arrive at a perfect initial sync and adresses an error on p.8 (Fig. 5) in the Shop Manual CB500-550.
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All good stuff. I fully stripped mine for a meticulously clean and inspection. I replaced some parts with genuine Honda parts at some significant expense and reassembled without any dramas, other routing the fuel pipes the wrong way. Nobody on the forum spotted the error in my original pics, or they were too polite to mention it.
I felt it was well worth the effort and I now know exactly what’s in them and that they are as good as they can be. I was fortunate as my carbs were completely virgin without any signs of previous work. I’ll be doing it again, probably, as I want to get maximum use out of my US cleaner and I’d like to complete the job with a hard chromed link bar.
One question for all: My 1977 F2 carbs had yellow passivate finish to some components. Was this true of all CB500/CB550 carbs?
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Yes, all the carbs throughout the CB SOHC /4 model ranges had certain parts yellow passivated.
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Thanks Julie.
I’m guessing then it’s the choke linkages/adjusters and throttle open/closing mechanism and stops?
Out of interest, can you confirm the fuel line is 5.5mm ID and from where I might source a T connector. Apologies in advance for being a lazy (lousy) research type :)
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Quote: And that's my point. At least you're open about it: your desire for 'a thorough clean'. My objective was and is to inform others, there are no technical reasons to take carbs thus far apart. Most of us here are amateurs and may mistakenly conclude it's a good procedure to overhaul carbs.
More out of necessity than a desire, they were solid from top to bottom and without knowing what was knackered I couldnt replace it, I'm not doing it for fun ;D. If yer gotta, yer gotta!
Its always daunting but you just take your time and enjoy it. nothing better when it starts after the smallest of prods of the button after a refurb/build.
"Never fix wharrin't broke but allus repair it if it tin't working". My dad always said that and it turns out I'm as tight as he was and go by the same ethic , hence my history of buggering about with motorbikes my entire life;D ;D
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I’m with you on the “ if it ain’t broke don’t fix it philosophy”. Taking stuff apart and putting it back together has been a life long affliction for me and it’s not always been fun! I just can’t help myself. Fully agree with your views.
Will be interested in your Gaterous plating project Oddjob.
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Thanks for the update, Ken. Absolutely no rush for the Speedo drive and really looking forward to the plating project. Some real chemistry going on there. By the way, I’m happy to make a contribution regarding the drive.
Regards
Phil
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My experience with carbs rebuilt by Gerben, it was for 022A set, jets 40/100. All brass original Keihin.
As said here, Gerben work looks very good (even I'm not a fan of polished bowls).
However, funcionally vise I was never able to achieve good idling despite a lot of sync tries. Additionally, behaviour at lower RPMs not good (felt like too rich). First I replaced slow jets from 40 to 38 (new NOS Keihins). It improved a little but still, running engine between 2500-3000 felt too rich and rough.
Having cabs off the bike this spring and reading some forum thread pointing to sensitivity of emulsification tubes plus fact that my tubes were falling off the carb bodies when main jet is removed, I checked them into detail and compared with keyster replicas I bought some time ago.
Guess what - I found internal surface of hole rough / corroded.
As all outside dimensions and size/position of holes on tubes were the same as on Keyster replicas, I decided to put them in (I had to push them inside with some force, so they do not fall out by themselves). I did not change needles that required additional dissassmbly.
After bench sync only (bearing balls method) carbs installed - whoola! Bike idles much better, chain rattle almost gone. Additionaly runs great, smooth on lower RPMs, I can easily "cruise" on ~2500 RPMs and engine picks up easily w/o hesitation. So only simple change of tubes change bike behaviour a lot!
=> before deciding to use original old used tubes, check them inside. In this specific case originals are not always better than alternatives ;)
Attached pic comparing new Keyster (left) with OEM Keihin
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Ken . ... I just started bright zinc plating again after about ten years as I usually send mine to Allenchrome. However, their lead times and prices went right up last year plus my parts are mega rare and small CB92 parts that are nigh on impossible to replace unless you have ££££££.
I used to use Gateros for chemicals but I am going to buy the zinc solution pre-mixed from YouPlate this time as they use potassium chloride/boric acid rather than ammonium chloride. Interesting that they don't recommend zinc/nickel for home use because of the difficulties in maintaining the electrolyte consistency.
I usually get my de-ionised water from Eurocarparts.
http://www.youplate.co.uk/zinc.html
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Here is the YouPlate advice Ken
[attachimg=1]
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[...] even I'm not a fan of polished bowls [...]
+1 Every now and then one sees these Honda's with parts polished to a degree they never ever had before, not even in the showrooms. Personally I prefer the original 'satin' look.
Guess what - I found internal surface of hole rough / corroded.[...]
I had to push them inside with some force, so they do not fall out by themselves. [...]
In my experience just pushing them in gently, is good enough. No need to drive them in with a wooden stick like Marco demonstrates in one of his vids. When the main jet is pushed in as far as it goes, the tube will also be in position. For cleaning the tube's inside, use one of grandpa's pipe cleaners. Do not apply abrasive stuff. Maybe just a tiny bit of toothpaste or some cigar ash in water.
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Here is the YouPlate advice Ken
(Attachment Link)
That may be confined to where the solution is in the chemicals Ash, it seems to work when plating from anodes ok or I doubt that Gateros would sell the kit, according to them the result is 90% zinc and 10% nickel.
From what I can make out Gateros was started by a hobbyist (nowt wrong with that) but the Youplate people are professional plating suppliers that have starting selling to the home plating market and thought their reasoning for not offering Zinc/Nickel was pretty convincing. By the way, Caswell Europe asked me to evaluate the power supply that Gateros sell and it was very poor build quality so. IMHO, don't be tempted to buy one.
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I've a bench top variable power source with controllable voltage and amps. If you've not got one, happy to lend it out for a bit if it helps you out? I wont be plating until after christmas so its redundant for the minute.
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Here is the YouPlate advice Ken
(Attachment Link)
That may be confined to where the solution is in the chemicals Ash, it seems to work when plating from anodes ok or I doubt that Gateros would sell the kit, according to them the result is 90% zinc and 10% nickel.
From what I can make out Gateros was started by a hobbyist (nowt wrong with that) but the Youplate people are professional plating suppliers that have starting selling to the home plating market and thought their reasoning for not offering Zinc/Nickel was pretty convincing. By the way, Caswell Europe asked me to evaluate the power supply that Gateros sell and it was very poor build quality so. IMHO, don't be tempted to buy one.
Bit late to tell me that Ash.
Bit late to say about the companies or the Power unit Ken ?
Re: Gateros ... I always used their chemicals when I plated my own stuff 10 years ago. They were extremely helpful and I got good results. I loaned my plating stuff out to a guy in Hull and he plated everything on his import CB750K2 with it and his bike was featured in Classic Bike Magazine's '10 best bikes of the year issue 2011. (see pic. attached)
My main issue with home plating is the overall cost compared with getting it done commercially as the costs can really stack up and it's very time consuming and fiddly to get right. Washing everything in de-ionised water adds to this too. But very satisfying when you get it right though. Plus I have found commercial prices / leead times have gone up a lot since the pandemic so trying it out it again.
Revisiting this all ten years later there are a few more home plating kit suppliers out there now and the thing about YoupPlate is they sell all of the chemicals separately ..... most other places sell you a 'kit' of replacement chemicals. On the zinc-nickel plating I considered the options and it's tricky enough maintaining the standard bright zinc solution to get decent results (it's fine when you 1st use it but it degrades over time and needs PH balancing, brightening maintenance chemicals adding and 'plate-out' to remove contaminants after a while. So I read the You Plate notes and decided against it and to stick with standard bright-zinc with passivisation.
BTW I made a schoolboy error last week :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ... I connected the electrodes the wrong way round and left the zinc plating for 40 minutes meaning that excess iron got into the electrolyte and trashed 5l of chemicals. I read up about adding Hydrogen peroxide and then filtering etc but in despair I just threw it all away and decided to get the ready mixed Youplate bright zinc stuff this time. Plus, I doubt I will ever get the connection wrong again after that expensive error..... well hopefully!
On the Gateros PSU .... I was asked to evaluate the same PSU that Gateros buy in, by Caswell Europe and we mutually decided that's it a cheap and cheerful construction and we wouldn't recommend it. Having said that, they have been selling it for a while and you could get decent results from plating with it, so don't worry if have already bought one. I would use a separate multimeter to check the plating current though because the current reading on the two examples we bought wasn't very accurate.
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C’mon guys. We need to see some shiny product. Waiting and wishing… ;D.
Do you plant to do some yellow passivate, it’s my favourite finish.
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C’mon guys. We need to see some shiny product. Waiting and wishing… ;D.
Do you plant to do some yellow passivate, it’s my favourite finish.
Done with Gateros Bright Zinc & blue passivate.
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That looks just mighty fine in the photo. Are you happy with it?
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That looks just mighty fine in the photo. Are you happy with it?
Yea ..until I did the schoolboy error and connected it all up the wrong way round and trashed my 5l of electrolyte :-[ :-[ :-[.
I have had limited success with yellow passivate and I notice that Gateros now tell you to dip in weak acid salts prior to dipping in passive, which they didn't tell you to do ten years ago. My passivates are ten years old and have chromic acid in them, which I gather is banned now for home plating. I will probably order some of the new stuff and have a go again.
I did try Gateros's copy chrome a few years back but the finish looked a poor substitute to me .. you could instantly tell by looking at it that it wasn't proper chrome. All of my copy chrome chemicals were trashed at work, when we got flooded to 1.2 metres height in 2013, with a mix of river/seawater...... so that killed that little experiment :(
The guys at Caswell Europe gave me some chrome stripping salts (I used it electrolytically not just dippped) and I just bought some nickel stripper from YouPlate, so going to give that a try for stripping chrome. Plus I got the chemicals recently to flash nickel over steel and then acid copper plate (you can't directly acid copper plate over steel like you could with cyanide based copper plating... you need a thin nickel coat first.). Hoping I can prep and polish a few few parts and then get Allenchrome to chrome plate them, which vastly reduces cost and timescale. This is for some small, ultra rare parts for my '61 CB92.