Post by: allankelly1 on August 08, 2021, 04:22:19 PM
Always was planning to rebuild the engine on my old girl as the “last piece” of the jigsaw
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210808/56e2824286b744c62659fc35e18ea717.jpg)
Trouble is it’s never a “good time” to do it with a running bike so decided to buy another engine so I can do the work without the old girl being off the road too long
So picked up this today from Ted ( many thanks again Ted)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210808/d3aef4d0afe9a3449ceee4729f6493f8.jpg)
Now it’s home and as it’s a “no rush” build going to not just do a rebuild but planning to do possible the following changes as well as a complete rebuild from the sump bolt to the top of the rocker box
Take it up to 460cc
Yoshi stage 1 cam
Get the head ported and sorted and possibly swap to Amal smoothbores and pods
And no doubt a few other internal tweaks too as been reading you can update the oil pump to a GL1000 with a modified oil pump housing?
Once done should be a special bike with some nice additions
Lastly no doubt along the way I will be asking lots of questions but first off need to build a engine cradle so the motor will sit nicely on the bench as it a bit more heavy than the RDLC engines I have built in the past so don’t fancy it falling over
Catch up with you all soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: 4wDaz on August 08, 2021, 04:52:03 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 08, 2021, 04:54:55 PM
As for kick starter I had one spare as with Raask rearsets on my old girl you cannot have a kicker so fitted this to see if it spun over which it does
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 08, 2021, 08:01:34 PM
Yes no broken fins
As for kick starter I had one spare as with Raask rearsets on my old girl you cannot have a kicker so fitted this to see if it spun over which it does
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Sounds like the ATF I put down the plug holes has worked!
Post by: allankelly1 on August 08, 2021, 08:08:25 PM
Had a look at the cam and the bearing journals it runs in as I read somewhere that infrequent oil / filter changes cause this area to become scored and all looks ok
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210808/694c86be5ff32ef019e3dac7a8e770a7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210808/9914f9ab8c921a093de1953d3955ad5d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210808/3a730e60c9e937bb23e20c918f29b768.jpg)
So that I hope bodes well for the rest of the insides including crank and box
Best wishes Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on August 08, 2021, 08:32:24 PM
The bearings do indeed look quite good.
Failed oil film(old or diluted with fuel) would ordinarily cause the camshaft to wear the aluminium bearing surfaces and perhaps bring pickup and degradation of the rocker faces.
Unfiltered oil with abrasive particles ( metallic or grit based) would be embedded into the soft aluminium and cut the steel camshaft bearings.
Neither look to be the case, suggesting it's been serviced at least competently in its life regarding oil changing etc. Quite a good start.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 09, 2021, 11:14:09 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 09, 2021, 05:38:05 PM
That’s the first stage done.
Engine now sat in a custom engine cradle
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210809/e5146646f987437d90632ad3cb602ed8.jpg)
Now to drain her out and then a carefully strip down with tons of photo as a reference point later when I have forgotten how something fits
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 09, 2021, 06:09:59 PM
The oil is proper mineral oil so might be handy to put back in later - the small amount of ATF oil I put down the bores will not cause any issues as its amazingly versatile stuff. Back in the late 1990's as a cure for Astra layshaft noises the Vauxhall fix was to drop the Hypoid 80 & use ATF Dexron 2. That is Dexron 3 fully synthetic I used.
Post by: allankelly1 on August 13, 2021, 06:12:56 PM
Cracking on with the strip now
Generator rotor off, clutch basket off with my home made puller and clutch nut peg spanner, and barrels now lifted too
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210813/14e4d62905d907f7d4611cacafd0bdb3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210813/efa0b244731122d7bc67390fabeb61fc.jpg)
Cam chain tensioner has done its normal siezed up solid and snapped off and found out on stripping down the engine the clutch side has a damaged lug
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210813/90591d9b7b1bda45d0691d9c085c6f4a.jpg)
But once the cases are bare these jobs will be easy to do as I will do the normal tensioner upgrade and fit the upgraded stainless steel tensioner assembly and get the broken lug built up by my local TIG welder expert and retapped
Catch up with you all soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 14, 2021, 12:24:03 PM
Never knew the story behind Pops frame damage - rot or accident?
Post by: Johnny4428 on August 14, 2021, 12:42:58 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 14, 2021, 12:44:46 PM
Best wishes Al
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210814/5076291f25cc99edc54371b8f0e07b1c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210814/aae6cc259d823fc0cd8eec0e2d360013.jpg)
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Post by: allankelly1 on August 14, 2021, 12:46:43 PM
Shame about the damaged clutch casing lug - wonder if it was done when the bike was dropped sometime in the past?Hi Ted
Never knew the story behind Pops frame damage - rot or accident?
Normal stuff for a 40year plus engine
Got a local TIG welder that repairs stuff like this so it will be as good as new when finished
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 14, 2021, 03:20:42 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 14, 2021, 05:32:03 PM
Well that was not too bad
Motor all now stripped
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210814/dc4d70a0518dc81f24662f496700c88a.jpg)
And all the parts left in the original oil then bagged tagged and boxed up
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210814/c1c3efe3e8e5353e4b8624f9521a4e33.jpg)
Next stage it to arrange for the two cases to be vapour blasted at a local company. Then I can get the cam chain tensioner mod done on the mill at work (new tensioner kit ordered from Dennis via EBay)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210814/98d1ffb7fd66718fae7fc269de2b39aa.jpg)
And then get that lug welded up
) Then I am ready to plan the rebuild. Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: 4wDaz on August 15, 2021, 10:40:58 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 15, 2021, 11:27:29 AM
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Post by: allankelly1 on August 19, 2021, 11:41:54 AM
First stage of the rebuild done
Decided before I get the cases cleaned I will do the tensioner mod as it would make a bit of a mess with swarf.
Managed to drill out the seized up m8 tensioner bolt and re drill and tap for Dennis’s stainless steel tensioner kit
Also made up a new tensioner bar too as original was damaged after drilling out the m8 section of the tensioner bolt
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/25ebb25fff9f14a277d06945c774ba44.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/38129db9dd99e4b9e29adf69ed64e4b1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/9001cd549a5d5868f56cf66f273ca8a8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/5725578598741e9e9108b01509c7dcc8.jpg)
Planning to now drop top and bottom cases off at the vapour blasters tonight and then on their return I can start the rebuild starting off with fitting and checking new shell bearings for both mains and big ends
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on August 26, 2021, 11:45:14 AM
Vapour blaster have sent a couple of pictures of the cases
Looking good
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210826/c876d6451c9df4d45533eedee4d77ec7.jpg)
Will pick them up next week
Best wishes Al
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Post by: Athame57 on August 26, 2021, 01:47:05 PM
What sort of money did this cost?
Post by: allankelly1 on August 26, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
Think it’s worth it as cases are then spotlessly clean ready for rebuilding as cases were also painted black and originally looked like this
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210826/05bbad400bddaa71133e79f83cff2c38.jpg)
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Post by: 4wDaz on August 26, 2021, 02:28:39 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on August 26, 2021, 04:55:05 PM
Had the same done on my rd project and my sons yam MotorX engine
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210826/e8eff7f665c495a07e756307c913c2bf.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210826/a3995b289cc4a767dd9a7f16f0e740d3.jpg)
It’s not the same as a grit blasting process
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 26, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
I used paint stripper on the outside & mainly petrol on the inside surfaces as I found this removed pretty much everything but it is tedious and messy work - the end product on the inside surfaces isn't as clean as your vapour blasting.
Nice looking job when you look at the before & after pics.
Post by: allankelly1 on August 26, 2021, 05:15:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is some abrasive in the vapour blasting?Yes it does but the process is so gentle on the case that it only remove dirt and surface oxide
If you look carefully you can still see the “shadow” left by the base gasket
It so gentle that it will not remove any paint or powder coat present hence the need to get them chemically dipped first to expose the original surface
I have in the past cleaned wood parts with this process
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210826/47ef2a6df493382907142ce93d3a1866.jpg)
But still the cases will be thoroughly cleaned again by myself before paint and rebuild
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Post by: 4wDaz on August 26, 2021, 07:12:57 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is some abrasive in the vapour blasting?Glass is mainly used for vapour blasting although most media types can be used, fine spherical beads are used for finishing which has a peening affect, not a cutting action. Trouble is some operators add aluminium oxide in with the glass to cut and clean then the glass polishes, it does the job faster but much more abrasive. It’s advisable to tape all bearing surfaces and the glass beads just bounces off. It’s also done at a lot lower pressure compared to dry blasting, normally 30 to 50 psi. The biggest problem is getting rid of all the glass before rebuilding the engine, I pressure wash them, oven dry, blow down then repeat the process again, oilways can be plugged but it still gets in. The safest option is acid clean and soda blast
Post by: allankelly1 on August 26, 2021, 07:28:34 PM
Like you said you need to ensure the cases are spotless and clean after the process and clean and check all orifices and stud holes then clean again
The company I used was Broomie Racing in Swindon as like you said there are some cowboys out there
Dave’s main work is vapour cleaning bike engines and he was originally recommended by another bike mate when I was doing the RD350LC as they really specialise in bike engines so know their stuff
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 26, 2021, 10:05:20 PM
Polishing or painting the outside now that's worthwhile as we can see it and maintain the shine.
Back in the 1960's I had Mini 1275 S that had been peviously tuned for stage rallying - it had fully polished gas flowed inlet ports that were a mirror smooth finish - the cylinder head was also mirror finish. At that time I was regularly stripping the engine down to fit a better camshaft (Mini Special Tuning 731 was my favourite) change the final drive units etc. In a single year the engine was removed, rebuilt & refitted about every 3 months - it never stayed clean internally!
Every time the engine insides seemed full of brown deposits with carbon in the inlet ports probably due to a ridiculous 649 full race cam having daft valve overlap. When Russian NAFTA petrol was sold in the UK I had to decoke it after 3k miles it was so gummed up due to the crap 5 star leaded petrol they sold over here. The best petrol back then was ICI Petrol it was semi-synthetic made as a by-product from the chemical industry.
The above experience is what put me off vapour blasting - that said it does look nice if the cost is not an issue - you are starting from new in terms of the inside cleanliness.
Probably the best way today to keep the inside of an engine clean today is to use fully synthetic engine oil but motorcycle wet clutches and synthetic oils are not a great match so one sticks with mineral oils and hope the modern additatives work.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 27, 2021, 04:59:09 AM
I used to swear by BPVF7 Ted, there were so many detergents in it that you could eat your dinner off the inside of the engine, that’s if you didn’t mind the taste of oil that is.
That reminds me of the early days of Shell Rotella for Diesels - when a customer collected his vehicle they often dipped the oil level and were horified to find it had turned black on the drive home!
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on August 29, 2021, 03:10:52 PM
I used to swear by BPVF7 Ted, there were so many detergents in it that you could eat your dinner off the inside of the engine, that’s if you didn’t mind the taste of oil that is.
Yes, I think in the early days of good oil detergents some brands went a bit overboard!
On the old BMC A series engine the development of good positive crankcase breathing systems did stop a lot of engines gunking up.
Post by: allankelly1 on August 31, 2021, 07:38:42 PM
Picked up cases tonight
Really please with them
A few up close pics
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210831/bf7f5790870489b5d84b30c754f8d730.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210831/87dbe0653d7d33cebcfbc3c784f0b723.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210831/b7b8a994910f54352db1a8e2d507ad1a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210901/0036433e749ab239b7465c109ab4eecd.jpg)
As you can see in the third pic the cleaning process is very kind/ gentle on the cases as you can still see the “exposed” original faces as the process will only remove oxidation and dirt.
Will next week get the barrels done so they are nice and clean ready to send out to be bored out to 460cc
Next job (now cases are back) is to record all the crank marking then mic up the crank and sort out all the shell bearings so I can do a plastigauge fit with the new shells and clean cases. Then once I am happy I will paint the outsides and then start the reassembled of the bottom end
Also in parallel got my oil cooler kit in order so I can sort this out as a separate project on the on the road bike while I am awaiting parts for the “on the bench” engine build
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on September 09, 2021, 05:48:23 PM
Well that’s the planned oil cooler mounted
Was not a lot of space and needed to manufacture a bespoke mounting and remove a couple of mounting brackets on the oil cooler itself that were not needed
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/fc40e4e4c52ccbf8383db0b00264e3d5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/a8274cef4c440491b047234d7c758fec.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/8599791144be682f437c0cd0785e2036.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/cce743101fee5554060c1426f99d8fba.jpg)
Also got the filter mount sandwich plate
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/05e2238a972441b6ce7946574218f6e5.jpg)
Now just need to sort out some bespoke feed and return pipes and this part of the project is done
Will look very “cool” once finished with all the braided stainless hoses
Catch up again soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on September 09, 2021, 06:38:44 PM
Filter sandwich plate was from D & M Engineering
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/59b366a6ea07ea79a7cce156e6bb3b06.jpg)
As for mudguard clearance loads of space and there is more risk of mudguard touching headers due to me fitting a generic mudguard from DS but got 40mm preload spacers fitted so front end is a bit firmer
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/ddc2ae6f099fb84f4f6c4ace97f204e5.jpg)
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Post by: allankelly1 on September 09, 2021, 09:59:43 PM
Fits a treat and you also don’t need the split exhaust collets either as the header pipe has a flange welder in place that the clamp used to seal the exhaust into the exhaust port
Also down pipes just slip into collector and held in place using springs and no clamps
Good value for money and sounds rather “rich”
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/bd0d05359840e442e7007054bf210380.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/8cf24ce7eee3d94f6fb201bf4c993e9c.jpg)
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Post by: philward on September 09, 2021, 10:03:04 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on September 10, 2021, 05:20:16 PM
Some great engineering work there Alan - envious!Thank you for the
Yes very pleased as not much space to fit anything
It’s off next week to be anodised black and going to get the sandwich plated done in black too as the gold is a bit
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 10, 2021, 05:48:42 PM
Some great engineering work there Alan - envious!Thank you for the
Yes very pleased as not much space to fit anything
It’s off next week to be anodised black and going to get the sandwich plated done in black too as the gold is a bit
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Nah keep a bit of bling Allan!
Post by: Laverda Dave on September 10, 2021, 07:23:24 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on September 10, 2021, 07:44:18 PM
A really tidy looking bike Alan almost 'period' type modsThanks
She certainly has come a long way in the last 18 months
Just need to drop in a rebuilt 460 motor and she is all done ( or maybe not) as there is always something else to tweak
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on September 11, 2021, 11:19:21 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 02, 2021, 08:13:54 PM
Just a quick update on the thread
Planned oil cooler now all sorted
Sorting pipe runs was a bit of fun but a kit off eBay with all sorts of different end fittings sorted that
Looks the part and make the bike just a little different from the crowd
Now to start sorting new parts for the replacement motor
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211002/2b1ec9e19ac103381cd132b9f09aed33.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211002/81762cb7fad70febaef8f0fa9758c0b9.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211002/00a8c49f7e0e5b6637c35ef91cfeadc3.jpg)
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Post by: smoothoperator on October 02, 2021, 08:22:15 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 03, 2021, 11:08:06 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 03, 2021, 11:10:04 AM
Rs components
They are stainless steel
I will take a look and see if I still have eight left but no promises
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 03, 2021, 11:27:33 AM
Hi Ted
Rs components
They are stainless steel
I will take a look and see if I still have eight left but no promises
Best wishes Al
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My engine came with a full set of SS exhuast studs fitted by the PO - is it a trick of the photo or are they egg headed domes or standard ones?
I'll take a look at the RS components website.
Post by: allankelly1 on October 03, 2021, 11:28:07 AM
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Post by: allankelly1 on October 03, 2021, 11:29:52 AM
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 03, 2021, 11:33:21 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on October 03, 2021, 11:33:45 AM
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Post by: TrickyMicky on October 03, 2021, 03:53:07 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 03, 2021, 04:42:16 PM
Just a thought, I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is not advisable to use stainless nuts on stainless bolts/studs. (Or am I losing the plot???)I believe that theory has been firmly debunked aside from the odd stalwart.