Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Integra99 on January 02, 2018, 02:05:48 PM
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Happy New year all... well had some time to tinker and it seems my adjuster bolts are doing nothing at all. The lower lock nut (m6/m8) screws in then stops and does nothing. The blanking hole above containing the rod end also has no effect if push from the top with a screwdriver.
However the cam chain rattle is very minimal.. and once the revs hop up she sounds gorgeous.
So firstly does anyone have or notice a little noise at idle.. ?
I've had the camcover off last night.. the adjuster (sliders) are a little worn but minimal. When undoing the two (m6 / 10mm ) bolts the tensioner pops up, so when pushed down clearly the horseshoe tensioner is working as its pushing the opposing tensioner into the chain chain, but the chain is still a little slack. I fear my adjuster is stuck..
I really dont wish to split the cases right now.. I wonder if putting on the new cam chain that I have will suffice, assuming the adjuster is locked at a certain point. Any thoughts..
I have read some people lightly know the end of the rod to dislodge the adjuster but unsure of this!
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The only sure and safe way is to remove the lower case, fitting new chain with stuck horseshoe will only wear out chain quickly
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My adjuster was jammed which I didn't realise until I stripped the engine. Even with this I only had the most minute cam chain rattle at idle. Although you don't really want to split the cases, I think it would be prudent to do so, then you can see what the problem is. You can then also fit an endless cam chain instead of a soft link.
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Is there anyway to see if the horseshoe is stuck without splitting the cases, can it be seen with the sump removed? The horseshoe seems to move because pushing one tensioner down, applies pressure to the other side meaning it moving below, if that makes sense.
I think its just the adjuster (bar) is locked in one position..
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Not possible to see anywhere near the cam chain or horseshoe through the sump as everything you need to see is right at the front of the engine, nowhere near the sump.
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If you want a pic of what you can see with the sump off, let me know as mine is still off at present
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Ah yes of course silly me all top end isnt it! Bah!
Yes any pics would be good please.. I'm hoping that the problem is simply the chain is stretched and at the max of it adjustment as the horseshoe is certainly moving when pressure applied to the slipper/tension arm as pushing down applies pressure to the other side if that makes sense
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Thanks all.. ok this all makes sense now.. the blades look good hardly worn and the tensioner lock nut still has thread and the chain looks in good condition. The Horseshoe is working and I think its the rod thats stuck.
Odd Job.. that's good advice, I had a lot of chain rattle until I put in a slightly longer blanking plug, I think this pushed the rod down and effectively tightened the tensioner a little without me realising and explains why the rattle has settled a huge amount.
So what to do now really.. ?
I have a new cam chain.. it would seem sensible to fit this I suppose. I may spray some penetrating fluid into the blanking hole and leave to settle.
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You really can't see much through the sump of a CB400/4, definitely not the bit you're trying to see !!!
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Ah yes not much at all, thanks Julie!
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If you have the cam cover removed, remove the rear plate the secures the slipper, the slipper will rise up. hold your finger on the top of the slipper and then back off the tensioner lock bolt on the front of the engine, you should now be able to push down on the slipper which will move the horseshoe, release your finger and it should want to push back up...this will confirm that the horseshoe and tensioner bar is working.
A little trick i do when i have rebuilt an engine is, leave the front lock bolt loose, re-fit the rear plate to the top of the slipper, screw down the 2 M6 bolts until it is nearly home,
leave it proud around 0.5mm, lock the front lockbolt. continue to tighten down the rear 2 M6 bolts until secure.
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin, I will try this tonight... are you the TTR400 parts guy... some beautiful components!
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Yes that's me.
Kevin
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I do the engraving of the wing myself on a milling machine.
My anodiser contact won't be any good for you as i am in South Africa..!!
I have tried to anodise castings before and 99% of them do not come out nice, goes dark grey. i have been told the reason is the high silicone content in the alloy.
Only parts i have had good results is the switch housings and brake splitter, comes out sort of satin black.
Kevin
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I have to say the front engine mounts are lovely.. do you have a price for these? Also Kevin are you still making the custom cam chain adjuster?
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Also the rod is well and truly stuck for my cam chain adjuster. The Horseshoe is moving but releasing all the lock nuts has done nothing. I have tried to knock it down gentle from the blanking hole but its not shifted, the hole isnt blocked because I can push oil from the top through and out of the adjuster hole. Bugger.. !
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Just looking back through this thread and read this part again
Quote...
I've had the camcover off last night.. the adjuster (sliders) are a little worn but minimal. When undoing the two (m6 / 10mm ) bolts the tensioner pops up, so when pushed down clearly the horseshoe tensioner is working as its pushing the opposing tensioner into the chain chain, but the chain is still a little slack. I fear my adjuster is stuck..
Are you sure the horseshoe is moving?. Could it be that when you push down on the top of the tensioner, it's not just the blade flexing which would mimic the horseshoe moving?. Also the opposing tensioner is just a guide blade and is totally independent.
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Thanks Julie... ah yes looking at the diagram of course its only the one side thats affected. it looks to me that the horseshoe is actually not moving and I assume stuck in position and hence the rod is not moving. Thats a nuisance!
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When I stripped my engine, I undid the 2 x 10 MM bolts and my tensioner did not pop up. I had to fiddle with the adjuster on the front of the engine and the blade then popped up. Mine was seized at the pivot point on the horseshoe. Even though mine was seized, I still had very minimal rattle from the cam chain prior to stripping the engine.
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Yes when I undid the bolts my tensioner popped up.. and the rattle is very minimal the bike runs lovely. But this is a fault and needs sorting, however I may only do 1000 miles on this bike over the next 12 months so I'm tempted to put my new chain and run it... my concern is I think the slack chain is at the end of its adjustment and may have worn into the horseshoe stopping movement. therefore the tensioner is at it most tensioned point.. potentially not good for a new chain.! The only way of freeing the horseshoe is to knock the rod down from the blanking point and see if it frees it at all.. otherwise its head off and engine out again.. !
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Personally, I would do it now. You will never have total piece of mind if you don't do it now. Do it right....do it once.
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My head says that too.. I have a good friend down at the weekend that builds engines for a living so he is taking a look, Frustratingly I had planned to fully rebuild my XS750 engine once the CB400 was on the road..as its needs a top end rebuild... too little money and time ha!
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Useful little video here showing the gubbings. Apparently says DSS replacement horseshoe has improved bearings alleviating one of the probs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnwL7ZYBtSA
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My original 1978 F2 developed the cam chain rattle after a few thousand miles and only getting regular oil and filter changes, albeit every 1000 miles. The tensionor rod or arm was probably partially locked by the time I attempted to adjust it and the warranty had expired.
After that it was tensioned whenever it began to rattle , at idle , by gently applying pressure to the rod as recommended by the Honda mechanic ! .... and was the only non- invasive way to tension the blade. A slight tinkling/rattle when the engine was cold was deemed normal so long as it quitened once warmed up.
By 30,000 hard miles the head gasket started to leak slightly from the LHS, not harmful (Honda mechanic said) but annoying. So the head came off for a new gasket and while it was apart the tensioner blade got replaced (about £10 even then), the original had light but significant wear grooves. A few more thousand miles of hard use and the engine stayed quiet between the occasional "adjustments". So those DID chains are pretty tough.
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Integra99, PM re the front engine mounts yes i still make them.
Also the cam chain adjuster horseshoe,(i make these for DSS) will be starting a new batch next week for DSS (he is out of stock)
Kevin
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Do the job once and pull the engine - maybe more work & cost than you intended to start with, but you won't free the horseshoe pivot off by knocking the adjuster rod down from the front of the crankcase. It will also give you a chance to inspect the rest of the engine, replace oil seals, drive rubbers and both chains so that when you put the engine back in, you'll know it's good for a few 000's miles - you also have a step by step guide courtesy of Julie !
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Integra99, PM re the front engine mounts yes i still make them.
Also the cam chain adjuster horseshoe,(i make these for DSS) will be starting a new batch next week for DSS (he is out of stock)
Kevin
Your horseshoes Kevin, being made of alloy, do they wear out quicker than an OEM one?. I'm assuming they are made of alloy to be lighter in weight ?
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Hi Julie,
The alloy it is made from is stronger than the cast/forged steel OEM part, the pivot point has brass/Bronze bushes pressed in to the alloy horseshoe which is mounted
to a EN8 steel bracket, the pivot pin is stainless or i sometimes use EN8 steel, it can also come apart if it needs to be serviced.
I designed this part many years ago, i did an update around 3 years ago. over the years i have manufactured and supplied over at least a 1000 of them, not had a failure to date.
It's also one of my favorite parts that i have done, nice to put on your desk and look at even if you don't fit it....:)
Hope this answers your question. Oh and your build thread is great. well done to you. looks like you are doing a great job.
Kevin
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Hi Julie,
The alloy it is made from is stronger than the cast/forged steel OEM part, the pivot point has brass/Bronze bushes pressed in to the alloy horseshoe which is mounted
to a EN8 steel bracket, the pivot pin is stainless or i sometimes use EN8 steel, it can also come apart if it needs to be serviced.
I designed this part many years ago, i did an update around 3 years ago. over the years i have manufactured and supplied over at least a 1000 of them, not had a failure to date.
It's also one of my favorite parts that i have done, nice to put on your desk and look at even if you don't fit it....:)
Hope this answers your question. Oh and your build thread is great. well done to you. looks like you are doing a great job.
Kevin
Thanks for the explanation Kevin. It certainly looks to be a better design than the original. I suppose parts that were manufactured 40 + years ago can undergo vast improvement from the engineering point of view, like you have proved with this horseshoe.
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I have one of your horseshoes fitted to my rebuilt 400/4 Kevin, great quality part and a nice example of professional machining. I'll be putting some miles on the finished bike in the spring.
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That look lovely.. thank all for your help much appreciated. Will spend some time at the weekend making final checks but I suspect engine will come out so I can solve the problem and I can give the engine a good check over.
Bit disappointed but its only January and have 3 months till the bike show..!