Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => The Black Bomber Board => Topic started by: mo goldie on April 02, 2024, 11:46:24 PM
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HI
Well with the Help of the guy`s on here I have finally got the bike out for its first run today, first went to petrol station to get fuel only about a 1/4 of a mile from me it went fine, filled her up pulled away and it was good for about a mile and it went on one cylinder made it back home and it was the right spark plug and they are both New ( Now got two more cumming ) so I hope that was it....... but the thing that got me is the Gears it`s ok going up to top but when you come down the box it seems to go from fourth to third ok then seems to jump second and go right down into first gear ...it don`t do that all the time tho now and again......... I have Not touched the Engine well only to put a new clutch in but the bloke I got the bike off said it did Do that but I could not try it out at the time as it was Not running..... do anyone know what it could be ?............as don`t fancy taken the engine to bits after doing all what I have done to it ?
Cheers
Mo
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That's a bummer 'Mo. Always crap when a seller doesn't tell you the full story.
Worth somebody else chipping in here but you can check the shifter mechanism without separating the crank-cases (you just have to take off clutch cover) See diagrams for things to check like the shifter shaft mechanism 1 and springs 2 &3 in top diagram attached. ( and profiled shift plate and pins on the end of the shift drum plus the two spings 3 & 12 and associated roller mech 11. Also the spring loaded pin 9 that is mounted in the top crankcase and runs in the guides of the shifter drum. (possibly the 1st thing to check I guess before removing clutch cover etc) . Other than that you would have to check the shift forks and drum, which means removing the bottom crankcase. On the bomber the crank is totally different to most other Hondas of the period and later, in that the crank has pillar blocks mounted in the top case .... so splitting the cases (with top end undisturbed) is not too daunting ... albeit a pain in the ar*e seeing as you bought a supposedly restored bike. I feel you pain.
Perhaps someone else can chip in and confirm what I am saying ... Bryan/RoyHalliwell etc.
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I've sent you a PM with a photo - I think diagnosing a gearbox fault is more difficult than distance diagnostics with electric niggles.
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I'd agree with Ash in checking #9 item first to see if any problem there.
Seems to be a detent position hold (generally they are) to prevent the shift drum moving without command or instigated by lever.
Sounds like it's OK inside the main box, else you'd likely get conflicts between gear sets if there's variation within that part of operation.
Also as Ash notes, checking the drum etc with clutch cover removed to see if there's reasonably positive "stopping" of the drum itself ( shift exchange lever removed) would verify the positive operation of that #9 mech.
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On my 500 the bottom pawl type wheel on the shorter lever was badly worn - hole in the plate was oval - not visible until I took the plate off and cleaned it.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53026878745_ee0797920f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oMNBC6)gear shift levers etc (https://flic.kr/p/2oMNBC6) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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OK , bit of an epistle here
I have never laid hands on a bomber, even at my advanced years before my time and not that common.
From your description i have a feeling the early 500 four used a similar mechanism and detent which was modified very early on due to 2nd gear problems, perhaps ( and this is a BIG jump) the later 500 change mechanism as shown in Teds picture could be adapted to fit the 450 without too much work, i do not know what would need to be done or even if its at all possible and may need a "hybrid" gear change shaft made from a 500 and a 450 combined.
If you look in Ash's dropbox or cave for all the bulletins there is one on there that shows you the modification "kit"
I have never done the bottom of a 500 either so dont know if those would fit either, a long and involved study of parts lists from cms may help but sorry i dont have the time at the present to do that for you.
There ought to be a lot of 500 twins hiding somewhere as they did sell but not in big quatities.
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Are thanks everyone That's a bit to take in after all that I have done Thought I could just go out and ride Now Ha..... lol
I have looked on the D/S site ....... and they do have most like the Coller drum 24446-200-000 and the No 2 spring 24641-216-000 that they will have to order in....they have got No 12 spring No 24435-283-010 I have the No 3 spring already as that 24651-283-000.
If I unscrew that Detent 8-9 it wont drop anything inside will it Ash ? but I will take that out first to see if that is Ok and go from there.
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Are thanks everyone That's a bit to take in after all that I have done Thought I could just go out and ride Now Ha..... lol
I have looked on the D/S site ....... and they do have most like the Coller drum 24446-200-000 and the No 2 spring 24641-216-000 that they will have to order in....they have got No 12 spring No 24435-283-010 I have the No 3 spring already as that 24651-283-000.
If I unscrew that Detent 8-9 it wont drop anything inside will it Ash ? but I will take that out first to see if that is Ok and go from there.
Pretty sure you can take 8-9 out Mo without it going inside but you may need a small magnet on the end of a rod to coax it out. Don't attempt to move the shift drum though with the gear lever. Before you do it I have some spare crankcases in my shed so I will look more closely at it. You may have to rock the drum a very small fraction either way to get the the 'collar shift drum guide' Item#9 to release.
Also check arm #11 moves freely and has decent spring pressure from spring #12. Also that the screw #19 which holds the guide plate to the shift drum isn't loose.
I am pretty sure a 5-speed arrangement will not fit the Bomber K0 ... the bottom end of the 4-speed is totally different to the 5 speed .. the crank for instance bears no real resemblance to the 5-speed. I am told the 4-sp is more like a Honda race crank arrangement.
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Great Thanks Ash for that.
I will have a look at it tomorrow and I have a small headed Magnet if needs to be to get down the bolt Hole, as I say I have the No 12 spring but will look at the 8-9 first before I go any were else...... as i have already last week took the casing off as I said before I put a new Clutch in with new springs which were EBC ones which they said were 15% stronger....... that when I got my cases back from spraying and fitted them in with the clutch new clutch plates and it so heavy, so last week as I say took the case back off and fitted the old springs and it is fine now...... just wish I had known More about the 2nd gear Problem while I had that to bits I could have checked that all out while that was off ha :(
Cheers Mo
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Here goes Mo. The hex head on the bit in the top crankcase was pretty tight but removed it and pictured parts in the images below. Also tried to photo inside the hole and you can see the channel groove in the shift drum directly below so pretty sure nothing can drop inside when you remove the 'bolt' thingy.
Cursing as the case wasn't on the shelf where I thought it was ... I had stored it away in the bowels of my shed. :)
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Are ok thanks for that Ashley
Just took that out and yes it was very tight to get that undone Ash as you say....... must have used a road drill to put that in ;D but got it out and it don`t look to bad and not much of a bad fit on the end of the bolt but can`t get to see the other end but I have ordered the bits from the Pirates ;D but will take a couple of weeks to get to me as got to get some I think from the USA Branch.
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Updated my earlier post Mo .. check arm #11 moves freely and has decent spring pressure from spring #12. Also that the screw #19 which holds the guide plate to the shift drum isn't loose. But of course the shift shaft arrangement and it's spring needs to be looked at too.
I am also hoping that the little pins #4 which run in the channels of the shift drum and retained by 'R' clips #5 are OK too but 1st you need to check the stuff outside the crankcases and hope that's the cause.
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Looking at those pics disregard all the drivel i posted earlierthe system is totally different, as Ash said spring pressure is the only thing to check
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Hi Ash
if you look at the picture I put on from the Pirates.... I have ordered all of the ones you have said about so will be looking at all of them when they do turn up oh the N0 5`s I did Not order as yes they are inside so hope I don`t have to go there :-[...I am Not taken it apart till they get here as I want to use it to the little show if I can... but I will get on to it soon as ............ thanks Again as we all need help if we Not used to the bikes we have just got and all on the Honda site has been a real source of inspiration.
Keep up the great advice for us all.
Cheers Mo
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Hello
Just been out for a 30 mile ride and just to give an update of how it all went, it seems to be around the 4,000 Rev range to Not want to pick up and seem to be a bit lacking in power and seems a bit sort of Fluffy if you get my meaning, its Not until it hits the 5.500 ish range that it picks up a bit, ( oh that's a rough revs as the rev counter is a bit over the place ) I did take it up to 70 mph seems more happy at about the 55 - 60 MPH..... it just seem that that 4,000 rev range is the problem and it just don`t want to accelerate anywhere up to and around them revs..... anyone else came across this and know what it might be....oh I did get my Carb kits the same ones as (Roy) so should be all ok there ?
as other than that it went all ok..... even the gear problem was Not to bad it only done that a few times but when I get them parts as I said before I will sort that out too I hope.
do anyone have one of them as No wonder the tank move about ?
17614-283-000 FUEL TANK MTG. REAR RUBBER
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That experience was the 4k flat-spot, as described in the instructions for the carb kits (see below) I was selling a couple of years ago Mo but sold 'em all now and chances of finding any more are pretty slim. The ones I had came from the Honda UK Service Centre in Nottingham and that closed in the early 70's I believe. (you can tell as the fitting instructions are done on a typewriter)
A few people bought multiple kits from me and perhaps they have a spare to sell ...bit of a long shot though, Hopefully, the aftermarket parts were designed based on the upgrades but I wouldn't hold my breath there either.
Not sure about the aftermarket carb kits yourself and Roy bought .. they may address those problems dunno really. Probably why Roy is trying out later model 450 carbs.
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Hi Ash
Well what can I say to that but oh Dear....... so the kits what Roy and I got don`t come with the needle Holder and the slow running jet and the pilot Jet I think were the same as Standard which i think in saying was a 35 and 38..... but can`t remember as I just put them in thinking they were the right ones.. But Roy might Know better ?
but as I say they did Not include the Needle Holder anyway...... so I am stuck Now Ash ha
I did when I got back was check Ign Timing ...the next I was going to look at was the Cam lobe clearance but did Not do that yet but if you say that was a thing that Honda offered them kits must have been a problem then ha :'( so at that Rev`s do you think it is getting too much fuel or Not enough ?
and Not even DSS say they are No longer about :(
oh well next thing is the forks got to be stripped as also have wet oil stained jeans as lots of fork oil leaking ...... and wanted to be fit for the show on the 23rd this Month :'(
oh has anyone got one of the rear tank rubbers.............as I was wondering why the tank keep moving about which is Not good ha ?
Cheers
Mo
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oh also having trouble getting the fork seal holders undone .......... i don't want to get and spend out on a tool that I will most likely only use once ha..
and i nearly got a rear tank rubber a New old stock one for £19 but they would not ship it over............ also don`t know how it will go but put two old needles in the carbs what I found in the old parts that came with the bike which I did Not even know about, they are a little bit longer than the ones what came in them kits so don`t know what it will run like.......... but got to sort out them fork oil seals first as the mrs keep saying she fed up with washing my jeans out of the blow back of oil...... I thought you want to see the bike that's more important ::)
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I might be able to use a us contact for you if the rubber is in us
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Those Fork seal Holders are b*ggers to undo unless they have been removed before. Even the Honda special tool won't unfasten them sometimes, as it only has two peg mounts. My mate Graham Curtis made this tool up pictured and used it to remove mine. Problem is it also needs a bit of heat when they are REALLY difficult due to corrosion.
I thought this was a restored bike you bought Mo? ... I really feel your pain.
Give me a couple of weeks to try to round up the folks I sold carburettor mod. kits to ... to ask if they have anything spare left over. David Silvers won't have those kits ...they didn't even know of their existence. I told them about them and gave them a copy of the fitting sheet to add to their museum's archives room.
This is Graham Curtis's home made seal holder removal tool (in use on a CB72/77 leg but same seal holder arrangement as the K0 bomber and works on those too (Bomber has alloy bottoms/CB72/77 Steel).
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Below ....This is some other guys tool who is on Facebook (don't know him though).
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Hi Ashley
Well yeah it was meant to be all done but as we know there is restored and just Tried too ha I got that one LOL.
I made a tool up today just like the one you showed.... Not much of a good bit of welding as I only have one which don't use Argon gas so it is spits and spatters ;D But Ha Ho it done the Job so got one off try the other tomorrow and yes heat was needed too the heat that is.
If you can get any of them kits Ash I would be most Grateful....... A Bit of a B*gger to hear that at that 4.000 res they had the problem ha just as Mine seem to just not want to get up and go and when you are in todays Traffic and need to get away it just go`s dead is Not good........... so anything that will Help id most Grateful.
Cheers
Mo
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As a point of interest Mo, which spark plug type are you using in this engine ? The whole designated sequence that is.
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Hi
Well I am using standard NGK B8ES ones.
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If you wanted to try something in the way of experimentation, then NGK BPR8EIX may possibly be worthwhile to assess any effects during the flat spot from fuel metering.
The mechanical fit should be equivalent, but you'd need to check side by side to make sure of no anomalies/ impediment before fitting them.
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Hi everyone
Well lets start off with some good news... all the parts turned up today from DSS..... so thought well I have a week to the show so I will make a start and get them all in..... all was going well as removed the clutch and oil pump etc, put in the new Detent first all fine then thought oh need to remove the gearshift shaft to put the new spring on so taken off the gear leaver and started tapping it though did not think anything was holding it in so I am sure I heard something in the gear box rattle as tapping it out so stopped where I was....... SO OH dear is it me or have I done something I should not have done ?
please say keep Knocking it out as that was the gears rattling around..........(Bet its NOT MY LUCK tho) as if Not I give up like Ashley said thought I had just got a restored Bike :) I may have been better getting a Basket case the Amount of work I have done on it.... thought I was Nearly all there ...... if you say the Engine has to come out or at least got to split the bottom off I will just give up I Think...as just Not had Much luck ha :(
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On page one this thread, there's three item located on that gear shaft #6, 5, 23 that look like they control lateral location of that shaft.
It doesn't show if thy are internal OR located external on the opposite outside of the case on lever change side.
Is there access to look the shaft location on gear lever side ? Near to sprocket area ?
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I dont believe Honda would design it so you had tofit to lower case and get opperating mech out of way to mate cases but i suppose anything is possible, none of the other hondas i have worked on 50cc tp 1500cc have done that
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Yes there is a picture on Ashley's workshop manual thats shows the same as the circlip looks like it is on the left hand side near the Sprocket, so I will take that casing off tomorrow and have a look if it is the circlip on that side I should be ok............Be a load off my mind if it is that........
I will update tomorrow.
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Hi Again
Well Panic over...... it is indeed just a circlip and washer on the sprocket side that holds the shaft in as just watched a YT video
of the CB450 and they put the Gearbox all in and the bottom half of the engine casing on and then put the gearshift in last... Wow thats a load off my mind ha........ so tomorrow I can go in the workshop and hope to get it all back on ....... ;D
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Good news, at least you'll not wake up thinking about it in a cold sweat :)
Looks, from the manual drawing, like a felt washer, retaining washer and lastly the small circlip to stop it all moving and oil inside.
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Hi K2-K6
well it was a steel washer up against the oil seal and held in by the Circlip. I have been on it today and fitted all the new springs Etc... and it all done as far as I can go as just waiting for that rear Tank Rubber if I can make that fit too, as I can`t get one of the ones that it is meant to have as I did Not even know it was meant to have one till I looked in the Manual, so I can put the tank back on and then Try it out ... ( weather depending tho ) good bloke Ashley is going to see if he can get any of the old Carb kits he had a while ago from people who had more than they Might have needed so that will be really good if he can...... so fingers crossed Ha
and I should be able to get to the show Next weekend ;D
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Good news Mo, hopefully another little problem sorted and good to get it to the show too.
There's often a few bits on most older bike that's needed in sorting out, despite what was claimed from seller. Hopefully you're closer to having how you want it now with the work you've done. It does feel better if you can get reasonably conclusive fixes in place, along with the confidence to take it out more.
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Yes thanks it is good news after all the problems I have Had..... but thanks to all you Guy`s on the Honda Forum and Ashley who has helped me out big time and hope he can help out on the last thing I require to finish it right off is the Carb kits that he said back in the day to sort out that Dam Flatspot at the 4,000 rev range.... as he said them at the DSS did Not even Know about them even when he sent them the info for them either :-\ ..... But hope Ash can find some out there for me I will be well chuffed.... I also will put some pictures on here when I do get her out for some shots.
Thanks all
Mo
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Hi Guy`s
Just an update..... well after it rained and I thought I would Not Take the Bomber to the show rain all cleared up by 10;00 am so my mates on there CL305 and CB77 super hawk got to the show...... had a Great day None of us won anything tho as the scooter lot seemed to win it all ( yes well what can I say :) )........... but ha ho the main thing I have to report is that the Bomber went like a dream, as the other day when I took it out it kept missing and that 4,000 rev`s problem was there............ well I messed about with the Carb`s and the plugs I had set at 30 as book say between 28 - 32 so had them at 30.....so changed them to 28, well what can I say....... I am leaving everything as it is as I say it went like a dream No missing and the 4,000rev`s it did not even have a hiccup anywhere Now ..... so as I say if it runs well don`t fiddle ha.
cheers Mo
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That sounds like a result Mo, well done that man 8).
Shame about the scooters hoovering up all the prizes:(
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Thanks Dave
yes that was the best result of the day................. Dam Scooters lol But well chuffed Thanks ;D
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here we go again :-X
Well been trying all day to get a better running Bomber...... it misses sometimes and it pop`s on the over run well most of the time it doo, I have this morning taken off the cam covers and re-done the Valve clearance`s also looked again at the ign Timing checked out and re-gaped the plugs also set the mixtures using a colour tune which I got to a Nice Blue colour, the other thing I thought about is if there was a leak in the exhaust somewhere........... I still wonder if it is running rich or lean around that 1/4 throttle opening ?
Weather being kind i`ts the vintage run on sunday....But I keep Trying to sort it dont no what else to try ? ........... don't know if its still something to do with the Kits that Ashely said about ....... and Main Jet by the way is the standard 125 ...but I have not got any bigger ones to try if it needs to go that way LOL ;D