Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: LesH on August 03, 2016, 11:59:01 AM
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I have suspect coil(s) ! Tried a coil swap over and continuity of wiring to points and still only get a very weak spark off one coil at 2 & 3 but nothing at 1 & 4 no matter what ! New points and condensers fitted. So am going to have to bite the bullet and get replacement coils if anybody can recommend a sensibly priced supplier or guide me as to what else may be going on would be much appreciated ? :-\
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I think you should check that you are getting power to the coils before spending out on new ones. Try running a live (+) feed to the coils power feed direct from the battery, as you may have dirty connections or intermittent breakdown of the live feed from ign switch or handlebar kill switch feed to coils.
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Thanks for that idea. I'll give it a try tonight if and when I get the chance.
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I have suspect coil(s) ! Tried a coil swap over and continuity of wiring to points and still only get a very weak spark off one coil at 2 & 3 but nothing at 1 & 4 no matter what ! New points and condensers fitted. So am going to have to bite the bullet and get replacement coils if anybody can recommend a sensibly priced supplier or guide me as to what else may be going on would be much appreciated ? :-\
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,10269.msg73700.html#msg73700
You know it makes sense!
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Just returned from visiting Mrs in hosp so knackered. Have to think about washing, feeding etc., Will now think I shall try these suggestions over w/e without so much pressure........... hopefully ! Thank you all. ;D
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I bought a set from M&P, they are pattern parts though so if you want to keep it original use the Ash repair guide.
Just for info though, there was a previous thread on here about making sure pattern coils have a 4-ohm resistance if using electronic ignition systems as a number of pattern coils sold on e-bay are 2-ohm and will cause damage to the ignition system. M&P told me their coils were 4-ohm, when I received them I checked to be on the safe side as I have a brand new Boyer system to go in 'project 400/4' and they were as described, happy days :)
Dave
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Thanks for info Dave. I have used M & P before so I do trust them and as you've tried and tested their coils that's another option open. May well do that after reading 11 pages Ash's coil rebuild it left my head in a spin ! Like all these things, if you watch someone do it, it may not be such a problem as first appears but I just want to get up and running. :)
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Thanks for info Dave. I have used M & P before so I do trust them and as you've tried and tested their coils that's another option open. May well do that after reading 11 pages Ash's coil rebuild it left my head in a spin ! Like all these things, if you watch someone do it, it may not be such a problem as first appears but I just want to get up and running. :)
It's not as daunting as you think Les but given your missus is in hospital, not the time for messing around I agree. I only did that detailed write-up because people on here requested it. To cut corners on the detail would lead to a million and one questions. The thing is for much less than a tenner you can give Honda coils a new lease of life. The replacements from DS are 230 GBP and and you can bet your life a great deal of the original ones are living on borrowed time due to the HT lead plastic going rock hard and fatiguing the inner conductor.
One thing I do plan to do is make a couple of little electronicboxes which will power the coils at running frequency, off the bike. I will give them away on here and they can be passed around between members.
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When you say "DS" I'm assuming that's the "DS" in Suffolk ? I've checked on their site and the price quoted is £34:80 each inc VAT ( £230 as stated by Ash) but I've read a previous forum here saying that they don't perform at the 4/5 Ohm threshold. Hummm ! ???
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I bought a pair of the DS coils for my CB350F and, fortunately, I checked them out before fitting.
They were only 2 ohm primary resistance.
I ended up having to fit a pair of ballast resistors in the power feed to the coils in order to use them on my Boyer system.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/gtmdriver/DSC00012_zpsv6myfvuy.jpg) (http://s41.photobucket.com/user/gtmdriver/media/DSC00012_zpsv6myfvuy.jpg.html)
To be honest I wouldn't even use 2 ohm coils in a 12v contact breaker system. The extra current will cause the points to arc and burn much quicker than they should.
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I think Ash was referring to the prices of genuine coils at D.S. not the pattern ones!
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That must have been in the "olden days" then because he only lists aftermarket parts now.
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That must have been in the "olden days" then because he only lists aftermarket parts now.
Yes David Silver Spares in Suffolk. OK so that was for the 750 which used the same Nippon Denso FL703 coil as the 500 and 400/350 fours. The only difference is the lead length but you could shorten the 750 ones to suit . The 500 assy is 30500-323-023 which is obsolete and is likely to be even more than the 750 if you can find one, even CMSNL don't have any. The alloy frame is the same on the 500 as the 750.
[attachimg=1]
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That is a scary amount !! I shall do some of the suggested checks over the weekend and failing that buy some of the M & P ones. Thank you for your guidance and replies one and all.
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try Wemoto,
they offer a couple of pattern ones
http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/honda/cb_500_four_k2/73/picture/ignition_coil_-_alternative/
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That is a scary amount !! I shall do some of the suggested checks over the weekend and failing that buy some of the M & P ones. Thank you for your guidance and replies one and all.
Yes just be wary of low resistance coils though and as someone else says if you must use low resistance ones make sure you fit a ballast resistor, but I assume this reduces the HT voltage somewhat. The low resistance coil ones are obviously getting away with less turns of wire by doubling the current and effectively producing a coil that is not continuously rated like the Honda one.
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Ash they say a picture is worth a thousand words, well yours on coil rejuvenation is a book worth having. I will definitely keep this for future reference.
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I think Ash was referring to the prices of genuine coils at D.S. not the pattern ones!
Fair enough, but my advice would still be to check the primary resistance of any coils that you buy before fitting them to the bike. Even quoted figures are not always true. I spent quite a while trying to find a set of 4ohm coils for my Moto Guzzi and had to return a couple of pairs of '4ohm' coils before I got a pair that actually were as described.
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Hi Y'all, me again. Well, coils both read 4.4 ohms +/-. New points reset, new condensers, retimed, everything back in place. Now no spark from anything ? I'm losing the will to live. I've been back through past posts and think I've covered the same topics so would be grateful for guidance or failing that if anyone fancies a trip to Thames Ditton (armed with experience of these things) where copious amounts of tea etc., could be supplied !! :-[
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I got 2 coils from Wemoto which were advertised as CB550K replacements for around £60 and they work perfectly with my DS electronic ignition.
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The trouble is that I don't believe that the coils are the problem any longer. In an earlier reply the coil rating was suggested as needing to be around the 4 to 5 ohm and I'm getting a reading of 4.4 ohms. I admit to not being very clever with electrics but I do think things have progressed to another problem, like, I think I've got a short somewhere now !!
At my age I just want to ride again, no time to tinker. I'm prepared to cross palms with silver if required ? :)
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The trouble is that I don't believe that the coils are the problem any longer. In an earlier reply the coil rating was suggested as needing to be around the 4 to 5 ohm and I'm getting a reading of 4.4 ohms. I admit to not being very clever with electrics but I do think things have progressed to another problem, like, I think I've got a short somewhere now !!
At my age I just want to ride again, no time to tinker. I'm prepared to cross palms with silver if required ? :)
May be the secondaries or the HT lead connections to them. They are notorious for fatiguing around the point where the lead leaves the coil 'cos the plastic cover becomes hard and brittle.
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Les, Just confirm that you have done hairygit's suggestion of running a + 12V direct to the coils. Or have checked that you are getting +12V (I assume you have a multimeter as you have measured the coils resistance) to the double bullet connector that supplies the coils. Should be the black/white wire on the CB500. The blue wire then goes from the coils to the CB pts for cyl 1-4 and the yellow for cyl 2-3.
You could even check the +12v with and without the coils connected. It should drop a little when the coils are connected as at least one set of points will be closed.
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Hi Seabe, Sadly I don't have a multimeter but "collared" the boiler repair man who used his meter to check. (The coils were off the bike at the time). I made a "buzz box" to check for continuity from the blue to the 1/4 points and ditto from yellow 2/3 which at that time was fine. Put the coils back on, tank on etc., but had no spark from either set this time. Checked again from blue and yellow and now makes no difference which side I get a buzz from everything so thought I must have a short circuit somewhere.
I confess, I've not done a direct +12v to coils but ???? Without the equipment I'm having to think of simple solutions which, I'm sure it only is, because it had been running and lost pulling power, faded but would restart before doing it all again. So, looking in the Haines book for "loss of power" took me on this route. (The fuel had been in the tank for about 8 or 9 months with added stabiliser but I topped up with about a gallon of fresh before draining it all out and replacing once more just in case stale fuel was my problem but as you can tell I trailed off in other directions).
Thank you for reading my tale of woe !!
PS You're right, "Hairygit's" comment about the kill switch went through my mind even though I rarely ever shut down using it but the sad thing is I can't get the screws undone without drilling them out. (Don't you just hate crosshead screws ?). >:(
PPS If I'm understanding correctly, I've just tried +12v directly from battery to the Bk/Wh coil wires (and neg to earth) and looked for spark at points which wasn't there !! Uh!
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the sad thing is I can't get the screws undone without drilling them out. (Don't you just hate crosshead screws ?). >:(
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Ah, I think I know something about this. If its on a Jap bike and looks like a crosshead screw, its not. It's a JIS screw (Japanese Industry Standard) they are a different shape and our western screwdrivers will gimp those heads. You can identify a JIS screw as has a little dimple on the head. JIS screwdrivers are available on the internet.
Good luck with your electrics, i'm watching with interest.
Rob
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Les, Difficult without a meter. But when the ignition is on and the kill switch is on you could check that you have +12V at the black/white bullet connector that feeds the coils by carefully connecting a small wattage 12V bulb between this and the bike earth.
Be careful not to short the black/white to earth otherwise you will blow the fuse or fry the wiring!
Also when the points are open you should also have 12V on them. That is all the moving part, spring and insulated terminal. A bulb connected between here and the bike earth should also light, but not so bright as the current is passing first through the ignition coil. (your 4.4 ohms)
Indeed the screws once chewed are a b****r. The original tool kit with the JIS driver with T bar would do them easy and such a simple tool.
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The original tool kit with the JIS driver with T bar would do them easy and such a simple tool.
Have a look on sites like eBay or Amazon for JIS screwdrivers. They are well worth having.
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Have a look on sites like eBay or Amazon for JIS screwdrivers. They are well worth having.
Yep, also look for Vessel 980 Series MEGADORA "IMPACTA" SCREWDRIVERS...
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Thank you one and all.
Plenty of things for me to play with there now ! Point noted about JIS screws (for future) but I might add that I've now drilled the "B's" out and replaced them with M5 Socket Heads and having separated the switch clamp you still can't seem to get at the kill switch/wiring.
Tomorrow I'll have a go at "Seabeowner's" other suggestions if and when I get the chance. :)
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Have a look on sites like eBay or Amazon for JIS screwdrivers. They are well worth having.
It also occurred to me that if you go looking at screwdrivers (or even if you don't) it would also be worth picking up a cheapish multimeter, to allow you to check things like presence of volts and continuity. Shouldn't cost too much and you then have it in your tool box for another day!
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If you look inside the headlight shell, see what colour wires feed /return from the kill switch, and either test the supply wire then the return wire for voltage ( a 12v bulb and a couple of bits of wire will suffice for the test) or join the loom wires that feed the switch together, and check for a spark then. If you get no joy, try putting a live straight from the battery to the power feed of the coils if you haven't already tried that. One more possibility, you say new points, did you clean the surfaces of the points before fitting them? As Honda and a few others coat then in a corrosion inhibiting wax/greasy stuff to stop them rusting in storage, and this MUST be cleaned off by a bit of wet+ dry, then pull a bit of clean rag through them to remove any grit, the stuff they coat them with is a sh*tty conductor! :o
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ASlso with new points are you sure you have the wire connectors and insulators in the correct places?
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Update......... I've just ordered JIS drivers on Amazon (although I won't get them for a few days).
Spacers....... I'm sure they're correct but now you've sewn that seed of doubt I will double check !
Kill switch......... Will trace and test wiring inside headlight.
Today.......... Back aches, knee aches but will endeavour, given half a chance, to get out there again later and follow up on all these latest suggestions !!
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Continuing saga.........managed to get five mins to myself.
"hairygit" test. Inside headlight shell traced kill switch wire and with light bulb confirmed that switch operates correctly.
Cleaned and checked new points surfaces to confirm clean and good, spacers in correct position.
"seabeeowner" test. With points open and red + of lamp on moving part of points, black - to earth, ignition on, should light up........... but didn't.
Test for +12v reaching coils......... good, test lamp lights.
Test direct from battery to coils to lamp across points.......... no light (or spark come to that).
It's beginning to point to both the coils methinks. Is it normal for both to fail at the same time ??
(Perhaps an order to Wemoto or M & P for replacements as earlier suggested)
JIS drivers ordered I've discovered are coming from Japan so won't be here until Oct I'm told (serves me right for not looking properly). I do have the original tool kit but was unaware that they were JIS and it turns out that my two embroidery machines (from Japan) already came with JIS drivers !! C'est la vie.
Any other ideas appreciated ??? :-\
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Up to you but if you want to send me them I will test them on the 'Ashimoto' coil tester as seen in my scary video.
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I still say check the position of wires and insulators where the blue and yellow wires connect
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That's very kind of you Ash. I've seen your workshop setup on Youtube and it's enough to disturb Dr Frankenstein. If you could email me your address and I'll remove the coils and get them into the post next week hopefully. (Life is a bit "full on" at the moment !!)
As Bryanj say's, I shall also double check the insulators.
Thank you all.
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That's very kind of you Ash. I've seen your workshop setup on Youtube and it's enough to disturb Dr Frankenstein. If you could email me your address and I'll remove the coils and get them into the post next week hopefully. (Life is a bit "full on" at the moment !!)
As Bryanj say's, I shall also double check the insulators.
Thank you all.
No problem: Is OK for us that work with electronics/electrics everyday but it can be daunting if it's not your game.
I will PM the address now...if you had been closer to me I would have popped over ...you must be sick & tired of it by now.
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Attn for Bryanj..........
Looking at my points insulator assembly setup for 1&4 (ditto 2&3) runs as follows :- running from the nut I have 1>nut / 2>spring wash / 3>plain wash / 4>insulating wash / 5>blue (or yellow) & condenser wires / 6>cont brkr back plate / 7>insulator wash / 8>cont brkr spring / 9>screw hd
How does that look ? :)
(In the Haynes book it doesn't actually identify the insulating washers from plain ones ?)
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Its wrong, the insulating washers should be either side of the back plate bracket so that the bolt AND NONE OF THE WIRES of contact breaker spring connects to it
Starting from the inside
bolt head
steel washer
contact breaker spring
insulating washer
back plate post
insulating washer
condenser wire
blue/yellow wire
steel washer
spring washer
nut
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I think there should also be a tiny insulating spacer that sits in the middle of the hole in the points back plate, to ensure the bolt doesn't come in to contact with it.
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Thank you each for that........... I'm going out to play with it again now and let you know how I get on. ;D
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Normally one of the insulators is "top Hat" shaped to fit the hole
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Well, thank you all for that. I feel such a fool :-[ ......... it's running again. (Between, "can you take me to Waitrose" and "can you take me to the nail bar").
Absolutely right; the insulators I'd put back in the wrong position. So now all I have to do is take a road trip during the week to see if the behaviour is any better and then an MOT. I doubt myself now as to whether it was just dodgy fuel that gave me so much grief and I turned it into a "make work" project ? ::)
Thank you once again Ash for your kind offer and hopefully you'll never have to dirty your hands on my coils !!!
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Hmm, I assumed you had replaced the points/condensors exactly how they were on the old ones! Never mind, all sorted now!
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So did I !!
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No I hate to say it but TOLD YOU SO!!!!!
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Its wrong, the insulating washers should be either side of the back plate bracket so that the bolt AND NONE OF THE WIRES of contact breaker spring connects to it
Starting from the inside
bolt head
steel washer
contact breaker spring
insulating washer
back plate post
insulating washer
condenser wire
blue/yellow wire
steel washer
spring washer
nut
I am shite at electrics Bryan and found this sequence one I have never seen on the points so I dug out a original set and it is:
Bolt head
Blue/ yellow wire
Contact breaker spring
Insulating washer
Back plate post
Insulating washer
Condenser wire
Steel washer
Spring washer
Nut
This is the way I have always wired them up. Does it make a difference ?
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None whatsover mate, the wires are connected together by the bolt (also to the points spring) but insulated from ground(Back plate post) and you can put them in whatever order is easiest, i was listing from geriatric memory!!
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Wired up as Bryanj laid out, starts, revs and ticks over just fine. Take it out on the road and I find I'm back to square one where I've got no pulling power. (The bike not me...... that sound's conceited).
My next step is to try to borrow a strobe and check the timing.
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The only important bit is that there is an insulator either side of the back plate bracket with nothing in between.
The rest can be in any order, although having the bolt head at one end and the nut at the other is probably a good plan.
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None whatsover mate, the wires are connected together by the bolt (also to the points spring) but insulated from ground(Back plate post) and you can put them in whatever order is easiest, i was listing from geriatric memory!!
Cheers for putting my geriatric mind at rest mate :) :)
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Wired up as Bryanj laid out, starts, revs and ticks over just fine. Take it out on the road and I find I'm back to square one where I've got no pulling power. (The bike not me...... that sound's conceited).
My next step is to try to borrow a strobe and check the timing.
Hi,
I was on my way home from Horncastle to Cheshire last night at about half eleven on my CB500, going like a good'un over the 'Cat and Fiddle' no traffic eerie mist in my headlight beam, wonderful! Then all of a sudden a little misfire then a big misfire; bloody brilliant ! Any how I stopped; the bike ticked over perfect, revved freely on the stand, so I tried to set off again. No way would it behave under load. I took off the points cover and the cylinder one and four points were a festival of sparks (lucky it was dark). Fortunately I always carry a set of points and condensers amongst other useful things, I banged on a new condenser and hey presto we are off again running great.
So I recommend you try new condensers especially as there may have been shall we say some 'unusual wiring' in the recent past. By the way the one that packed up on me was about 6 months and 2000 miles old it was made by Daiichi, but it was cheap so its not all bad news.
PS I don't use a strobe to set my timing I Just do it by the Haynes Manual method. Seems to work.
Good luck,
Rob
PS. how are the new screw drivers ?
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Oh dear Rob, what a pain. Are you sure it wasn't that dodgy speedo cable playing up ? ;) ;) ;)
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Oh dear Rib, what a pain. Are you sure it wasn't that dodgy speedo cable playing up ? ;) ;) ;)
Ah Yes that would explain it, and I wasn't the last to touch that was I.
Cheers
Rib
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True Rob, it was someone else that had the last fiddle :D :D :D
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Condensers are new replacements from DSS........... It was one of my first suspicions......... suppose I could have been unlucky and got the only two new dodgy DSS ones on sale !! :-\
PS One driver arrived from Japan super quick but the other one I'm still waiting for (unbeknown to me a different supplier) but I must admit a very nice fit...... work a treat.