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SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 11, 2021, 07:25:36 PM

Title: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 11, 2021, 07:25:36 PM: Hi Guys,

I know there are many long time 400F members out there having run their bikes for yonks on various Petrols. I'm interested to see which type of unleaded (Regular) or (Super) you settled on and why. ?

Thanks ;)

Dennis
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 07:32:02 PM: Super all the way

Don’t do many miles in a year so extra cost is worth it and at the moment super in most areas is ethanol free still

Also we know e5 does cause issue on some rubber and plastic parts on older bikes and modern plastic fuel tanks so why take the risk?

Best wishes Al

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 11, 2021, 07:33:25 PM: Always used supermarket regular in the past because it was cheap, now using Super Unleaded because its E5 (up to 5% Ethanol content), instead of the cheaper fuel which is now E10. I ended up with a bit of both a couple of weeks ago, so E7.5 😁😁😁😁 bike runs just fine on it but everything rubber on our bikes fuel systems is Viton anyway so I won't worry if I have to put the odd tank of E10 in.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 11, 2021, 08:21:51 PM: Quote from: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 07:32:02 PM
Super all the way

Don’t do many miles in a year so extra cost is worth it and at the moment super in most areas is ethanol free still

Also we know e5 does cause issue on some rubber and plastic parts on older bikes and modern plastic fuel tanks so why take the risk?

Best wishes Al

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Alan & Julie,

I fully agree with the thoughts on Ethanol.

Although Super is possibly not strictly necessary on terms of the 400 Compression Ratio, I'm assuming that some of the higher grade refining of the Super might have some beneficial effects in the burn process, that one may have noticed in use.

Has there been any apparent difference in your experience ?

Thanks :)

Dennis
Title: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 08:29:09 PM: No as only run on super cannot comment but news on the street is e10 gives you less mpg in certain circumstances I presume due to a lower calorific rating due to the introduction of this bio fuel

I know some guys due to there low miles if e10 becomes the only supply are talking if going over to avi gas as it E free and piston engine planes will be around along time after the government try to force / tax the ICE of the road due to their their underhanded tactics

Just is a bit more expensive

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 11, 2021, 08:40:12 PM: I have filled up on the odd occasion with Super unleaded in the past (pre all this Ethanol change) and to be honest, I never noticed any difference in performance or fuel economy. To be honest though, the 400/4 has such a small tank that I used to fill up 2 or 3 times on a days ride out with whichever fuel happened to be on the pump I stopped at.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 08:42:52 PM: When I used to rag the VFR up the strip up at 'Shaky' the times were always a bit better when there was super in the tank as opposed to the normal unleaded. Not sure if it's a chemical process thing or a mind thing but always filled up on the way in to make sure we had a full tank for the racing 8)
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 11, 2021, 09:22:21 PM: Quote from: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 08:42:52 PM
When I used to rag the VFR up the strip up at 'Shaky' the times were always a bit better when there was super in the tank as opposed to the normal unleaded. Not sure if it's a chemical process thing or a mind thing but always filled up on the way in to make sure we had a full tank for the racing 8)

Hi Laverdaroo,

Thanks. Sounds then in your experience performance-wise with the Honda, that there maybe some marginal benefits when pushing the engine at the limits.

Cheers ;)

Dennis
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: MCTID on October 11, 2021, 09:29:46 PM: http://amalcarb.co.uk/ethanol-fuels

Interesting article from the Burlen Fuel Systems Technical page....some years ago...but that's Burlen for you ! (I was reading it today when I bought some Amal Carb spares).
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Laverdaroo on October 11, 2021, 09:44:14 PM: Realistically, yes but the times don't lie I guess. I was under the impression that it was down to available octane, higher rates etc but I'm no chemist. One of the boys on here will more than likely be able to explain it or why I'm wrong but that was the gist of our thoughts at the time. Admitted, I wasn't even aware of the E5, E10 thing back then (5+years) ago,it was always assumed that the Super bit meant it was the better, sooper jooce to treat the bike to up the strip. I'm a bit older, fartier and fanatical now I own two older hondas' as well as the beloved VFR, she'll pretty much run on anything but the old girls I want to be treated as best as I can, as you do.
They've managed to live this long and I don't want to be the pillock to knacker them by using the wrong anything, fuel included. ::)
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 09:54:06 PM: I think the main problem is if you leave the bike standing for a length of time

Extended storage leads to the fuel absorbing water as its hydroscopic that then leads to rotted tanks as the water separates from the fuel and then sits in the bottom of the tank

Same happens in the carbs bowls that can rot brass ware etc

Also like it says seals need to be viton but is new to here so most older bikes are not e10 suitable due to older type rubber in use

Also hear that if left even in newer bikes if they are not used often the fuel will damage injectors as you cannot drain these for long term storage unlike good old carbs

I think for newer vehicles obviously the seals are compatible and the main thing is if it’s in regular use the fuel does not remain for long in the tank and other critical areas of the fuel system

Also not god for my RD35C either

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 11, 2021, 10:12:19 PM: I've used super unleaded as soon as 5 star petrol went. Aside from it usually being ethanol free it's also lower in sulphur I believe plus some additatives in the mix. Likewise I use the ultimate diesel brands. I have consistently had marginal improvements in mpg I'm only talking 1-2 mpg on big engine vehicles that return 22-27 mpg. I also add Wynns dry fuel into our Merc that we only drive in the summer same when I had the Yamaha XJ900 - it somehow keeps the water molecules in suspension. Not an issue on the Merc as it has a plastic tank but on the paper thin Yamaha tank that I had to replace after about 5 years due to pin holes everywhere it ensured the new tank lasted many more years until I sold it.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: K2-K6 on October 12, 2021, 08:46:48 AM: The grades currently available have obviously changed appraisal of them as E component is hot topic.

From a straightforward octane point of view, none of these engines need or use a higher octane rating because of compression levels in their design.

To take advantage of raised octane fuel it would need to run increased compression and or need more advanced timing to gain advantage. Essentially it does nothing without modification as they don't approach the limits of fuel performance on the lower octane available 95 ?

"High performance" current injected engines that have compression and timing plus turbo etc optimised to run with raised octane fuels will scale back ultimate performance if used with a lower rated fuel. They can't analyse the fuel but they do have "knock" detection that senses the acoustic signature of cylinder detonation, then pull back ignition advance and often increase fuel delivery to avoid catastrophic failure through heat accumulation in each cylinder.

Industry testing of true octane in fuel formation is ultimately verified by running a variable compression test cylinder engine. It has the facility to keep increasing the compression on a run cycle until it starts to detonate, which confirms that specific formulation meets the stated rating to market the fuel at.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Seabeowner on October 12, 2021, 08:49:55 AM: A bit like Julie, I have been using a bit of what I can get and noticed no difference. After E10 started I used super a couple of times, but will probably revert to every other fill. I'll probably drain the system for a few months over winter.

I knew the US had been using ethanol on and off for 50 years. Strange that only now they seem concerned about it and rant on about it.
I do wonder though if the corrosion found on the carbs (main jet tower particularly) that is seen on long stored US bikes may be a consequence.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: K2-K6 on October 12, 2021, 09:23:55 AM: "I do wonder though if the corrosion found on the carbs (main jet tower particularly) that is seen on long stored US bikes may be a consequence."

Yes I'd see that the same as you, the carbs being significantly zinc base matetial are easy meat in a sacrificed anode way. You just need the right chemical bath to propagate galvanic corrosion and away it will go.

There was a documentary recently that covered a service/spruce/maintenance refit of a north sea ferry in dry dock. They were changing the zinc sacrificial anodes on the hull (didn't even know they had them ;D) great slabs of them that disappeared in protecting the hull and bronze propellers etc from the scavenging effects of running in sea water.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: wildtapholer on October 12, 2021, 02:17:49 PM: After the carb strip down and lots of problems getting the float levels correct, the petrol I got was regular(or supposed to be) just before we went E5 and E10 route, but I can't help noticing the carb overflow pipes, I keep getting this yellow discharge, from the over flow pipes if I run my fingers over the ends. I haven't took it out for a blast yet after a sympathetic restoration, just a start up in the garage, but it keeps fouling the plugs and running on 2 cylinders, I'm tempted to drain the tank and get some ansel I think it was called, from the lawnmower centre.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 12, 2021, 07:19:15 PM: Quote from: allankelly1 on October 11, 2021, 09:54:06 PM
I think the main problem is if you leave the bike standing for a length of time

Extended storage leads to the fuel absorbing water as its hydroscopic that then leads to rotted tanks as the water separates from the fuel and then sits in the bottom of the tank

Same happens in the carbs bowls that can rot brass ware etc

Also like it says seals need to be viton but is new to here so most older bikes are not e10 suitable due to older type rubber in use

Also hear that if left even in newer bikes if they are not used often the fuel will damage injectors as you cannot drain these for long term storage unlike good old carbs

I think for newer vehicles obviously the seals are compatible and the main thing is if it’s in regular use the fuel does not remain for long in the tank and other critical areas of the fuel system

Also not god for my RD35C either

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 12, 2021, 07:22:22 PM: Thanks for your inputs and responses guys. ;)

Let me throw another variable into my Curiosity question

1. What about petroil mix 2 strokes, do they suffer the corrosion problems or are they inhibited by the presence of Oil in the fuel. ?

2. Our mineral oil requirement for these Hondas can have an effect on the rate of upper cylinder / combustion chamber carbon deposits, as it does in many engines of that era. If the consensus on Q1 is positive, then why not add a small amount of the latest oils to the petrol, like Total INEO ECS that clean the combustion chamber and protect the catalitic converter. Clean engine and no rotted tank or Carbs, also acting as an upper cylinder lubricant UCL !!

Thanks

Dennis :)
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: oldchuffer on October 12, 2021, 07:27:36 PM: I had the same issue as you with my CB750 wildtapholer - i think its Aspen you mean. I drained mine, filled it with Aspen and its been fine since and starts so much easier and its been in for nearly 4 years now.
Title: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: allankelly1 on October 12, 2021, 07:28:00 PM: E10 is bad for my RD350LC

As it is a pumped system rather than premix in many ways the fuel system is no different to a 4T so the risk of a rot tank fuel line or carbs is still the same as you are just adding oil at the point just before the mixture enters the cylinder

Also I think for premix there is a greater risk of the oil not mixing correctly causing more wear or a potential seizure

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211012/2b80d0a30d85d0e0e551c81de7918338.jpg)

Best wishes Al
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on October 12, 2021, 07:46:47 PM: Hi Alan,

" Lubricating Effect" I can see where you are coming from with respect to my Q1, since the 2 stroke is entirely dependent on the quality of the mixing to distribute its lubrication.

With reference to my Q2. For 4 stroke use it could possibly be regarded as a form of "Redex", but with modern day benefits ??

Best wishes ;)

Dennis
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 24, 2021, 08:34:03 AM: Back in the mid 60's I crewed on a 50ft converted wooden fishing boat for 6 weeks - we sailed from North Wales to Barcelona - although it was a wooden boat it too had a massive sacrificial lump of zinc or magnesium it might have been attached to the Hull.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 08:53:37 AM: I sailed for many years and it was always my job to scrub the bottom to remove barnacles, apply a couple of coats of Copper Bottom antifoul and fit a new sacrificial anode every winter when the yacht was lifted out for winter maintainace. The anode would not last a whole sailing season, so we used to find a suitable place to anchor up as the tide was going out and when the boat was high and dry, go and fit a new anode to the prop and wait for the incoming tide to re float the boat. Easy job if the boat was a bilge keel type as the boat sat upright on the mud but a nightmare on a Fin keel type as the boat used to lay at an angle of 45° until it started to refloat 😁😁😁
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:19:30 AM: Ooh, sailing.

Got my Clipper Race interview on Tuesday…. ;D
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:21:58 AM: Quote from: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:19:30 AM
Ooh, sailing.

Got my Clipper Race interview on Tuesday…. ;D
Oh wow, you lucky chap.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:23:20 AM: Not so sure having seen some of the Southern ocean vids :-\
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:24:41 AM: Quote from: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:23:20 AM
Not so sure having seen some of the Southern ocean vids :-\
Ah yes, the furious 40's. What a great opportunity for you though.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:28:25 AM: Yes, fingers crossed. I expect to return a broken man:physically, mentally and fiscally. Hence getting in the 550 restoration and 500 purchase now.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:32:18 AM: Quote from: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 09:28:25 AM
Yes, fingers crossed. I expect to return a broken man:physically, mentally and fiscally. Hence getting in the 550 restoration and 500 purchase now.
Yes, but it will be worth it Phil.
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:32:53 AM: Sorry for hijacking your thread Ted 😔😔😔😔😔
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 24, 2021, 10:10:21 AM: Quote from: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:32:53 AM
Sorry for hijacking your thread Ted 😔😔😔😔😔

How can I say this it's not my thread its Dennis's!
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 10:26:20 AM: Quote from: Macabethiele (Ted) on October 24, 2021, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: Nurse Julie on October 24, 2021, 09:32:53 AM
Sorry for hijacking your thread Ted 😔😔😔😔😔

How can I say this it's not my thread its Dennis's!
Oh yes, sorry Dennis 😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: Sesman on October 24, 2021, 01:33:01 PM: Me too. Sailing and fuel, two very closely related topics. :) :)
Title: Re: 400 Four - PETROL GRADE CURIOSITY ?
Post by: K2-K6 on October 24, 2021, 02:28:45 PM: A friend was participating in clipper but on a leg approaching China as the covid situation developed, she was so looking forward to it but I'm unsure how it's panned out and whether she'll be able to return/complete or what will happen. Certainly quite a serious adventure.