Post by: Bristolbadger on March 25, 2022, 03:15:32 PM
Low and behold the horror in the pics! I'm mortified to say the least after 2yrs of ground up build.
What could have caused this? Only a bent camshaft that I can think of as I did a full bench check to check oil circulation to the head and all metering jets were clear and oil was getting up to the journals and everywhere nicely. Was getting good running pressure with a gauge attached to the pressure sender initially and also no oil light warning (yes the pressure switch is working) when I was riding it with that back in.
The left side cam holder/journals and camshaft are fine and unmarked as was everything up there when I assembled the engine.
I can't vouch for the straightness of the camshaft when I got the bike so I guess its possible the cam had been dropped or bent and I just had a dodgy one to start with.
Not sure my best course of action now?
I'll strip all the parts off and take the cam fully off and investigate for any further damage I guess but then best case scenario is me left looking for a second hand camshaft and right side holder and journals. F**k f**k f**k!
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Post by: Bryanj on March 25, 2022, 03:39:38 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 03:42:23 PM
You can see the heat range on the rockers as they've over heated too without oil.
Post by: sye on March 25, 2022, 03:43:10 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 03:47:03 PM
It won't show on the pressure guage or oil light as even with this route completely blocked they will look ok.
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 25, 2022, 04:18:50 PM
Post by: haynes66 on March 25, 2022, 04:36:29 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 25, 2022, 04:50:53 PM
i was told by an old honda guy to turn the engine over with the rocker cover caps off to see if oil arrives at the head. i assume that's a good idea?Yes, it is. Always take the 2 end tappet caps off and make sure the oil is getting up there on both sides before riding the bike and putting the engine under load.
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 05:11:48 PM
i was told by an old honda guy to turn the engine over with the rocker cover caps off to see if oil arrives at the head. i assume that's a good idea?sensible containment definitely.
Core cause, absolute, paranoia over making sure there's nothing in the oil distribution system to travel up that route and get caught by the restrictor coming into the head.
It's there to preserve pressure at the crankshaft, the head being effectively open bath type distribution, the restricors set the boundary between the two.
Post by: Bryanj on March 25, 2022, 05:13:38 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 25, 2022, 05:22:32 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 25, 2022, 05:27:57 PM
That was caused by crap blocking the oil jets, did you use silicone goo on the crankcase?
Oh man I'm still reeling from this discovery and blocked jets weren't really a fear as I was meticulous on the engine build, especially after the 2nd engine lift out where I had to go into the gearbox... and followed Hackaweeks channel and was careful with the jets and their surround rubbers, the dowels, the rubber pucks etc as I knew the implications after his explanation and Hondaman's and all was spotless putting bottom and top end back together. I used the Permatex ultra grey on the cases and was super sparing with it so minimal chance of any squidge out coming off and blocking the jets.. already if at all.
I bench tested the oil circ and it was squirting up to all the right places on the rockers - I took a video off it and will upload and link to it here.
Starting to lose faith with this now, not sure I've the time, space or money to get this repaired even if I could find the parts. Gutted :(
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 25, 2022, 05:43:33 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on March 25, 2022, 05:55:23 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 25, 2022, 06:01:25 PM
Just had a quick chat with Nick, (Bristol Badger) and I'm gonna bob over for a moan n a brew tomorrow and see if we can form a plan and a list. There's gonna be a bunch of questions coming and some desperate;y seeking requests me thinks. ;) :)Well done Roo
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 25, 2022, 07:20:24 PM
i was told by an old honda guy to turn the engine over with the rocker cover caps off to see if oil arrives at the head. i assume that's a good idea?
F#@#####CK!! I can't think why I didn't do this with the engine in the bike not just on the bench, I assembly lubed everything as i went and was fixed on the pressure being good and having seen the oil getting up there on the bench I assumed all was well..... so moved on to the next thing. TW@T!@!!
Here's that vid:
https://youtu.be/TnXZu-yCPGA
Like you all say rockers 3&4 got starved of oil and just running dry and melting the cam and holders. I don't think, & hope - until I can investigate further - that the head itself is damaged, pray be.
Thanks muchly for the call and support Roo. These are sour times man
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 25, 2022, 07:36:56 PM
I suppose in theory, even though oil is observed getting up to the cam on a newly rebuilt engine at initial start up, it could take a few miles of riding to dislodge any debris that is in the bottom end, such as the dreaded silicone sealer, blobs of glass bead etc, etc.
Julie I reckon you're spot on and this is what happened. I'd been pretty surgically clean and really tried to make sure all oil routes were clear but I guess something somewhere blocked a jet and gave me the two fingers!!
So painful to fall on the last hurdle like this after a couple of years but I guess I'd be looking at ANOTHER tear down of the head etc anyway even if I'd discovered the oil blockage before meltdown. Just this is now even more of a costly one for parts and it now not going anywhere (will cancel my insurance on it now as it's just started) and almost beyond me putting anymore into it, moan moan f@#k s@*t
Post by: Oddjob on March 25, 2022, 07:38:37 PM
I ALWAYS spin the motor over with the camshaft out and holding the camchain up on a screwdriver, plugs out of course. You can then compare oil feeds to see if one looks weaker than the others.
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 07:49:24 PM
Not quite as bad as it seems.
The rockers do get hot on the cam from no oil (you can see colour gradient in the rocker web indicating the range, through blue to staw colours) but it's not that that takes the cam bearings.
The bearings without oil quickly pick up through their own friction causing the aluminium to stick to the cam, as this continues it's more like a snowball and wrapping more aluminium onto it.
The "good" bit is that the above is usually totally contained within the cam, carriers and rockers, which obviously go on replacement list. The head usually escapes anything serious if anything at all.
For historic (other's looking in here later) this is where Graphogen assembly paste outperforms virtually anything else, in that if you do have a feed failure during initial assessment, it just lasts longer and is remarkably good at preventing metal pickup from one component to the other, even with zero oil.
Post by: Oddjob on March 25, 2022, 07:55:25 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 08:20:35 PM
Graphogen is very good and probably exceeds most in this arena.
Moly based, definitely as torque load increases and standard in things like CV joints (relatively low heat but high contact pressure) probably more readily available in workshops though.
Post by: Oddjob on March 25, 2022, 08:27:13 PM
I have a tube of Graphogen still so I'll carry on using that until it runs out.
Post by: K2-K6 on March 25, 2022, 08:47:17 PM
It's a shame for Nick to get stuck on something like this though, hopefully it won't be too bad to sort out.
Post by: Trigger on March 25, 2022, 11:31:12 PM
I suppose in theory, even though oil is observed getting up to the cam on a newly rebuilt engine at initial start up, it could take a few miles of riding to dislodge any debris that is in the bottom end, such as the dreaded silicone sealer, blobs of glass bead etc, etc.
Julie I reckon you're spot on and this is what happened. I'd been pretty surgically clean and really tried to make sure all oil routes were clear but I guess something somewhere blocked a jet and gave me the two fingers!!
So painful to fall on the last hurdle like this after a couple of years but I guess I'd be looking at ANOTHER tear down of the head etc anyway even if I'd discovered the oil blockage before meltdown. Just this is now even more of a costly one for parts and it now not going anywhere (will cancel my insurance on it now as it's just started) and almost beyond me putting anymore into it, moan moan f@#k s@*t
If when you strip the cam towers off and the oil jet is not blocked then, you have to look at the oilways in the towers. A lot of owners forget to check the oilways in the towers. When you find out what caused the problem and rebuild, when you start the engine do so, with the tappet covers off. This way you can see if oil is feeding the cam ;)
You have not said, if the engine was media blast cleaned.
Post by: Lobo on March 26, 2022, 11:19:41 AM
I’m spending a fair few of my days with an engine builder, who cautions me of 90 degree corners within oil ways, and that when wet blasting, media sludge can remain in such areas, and if not washed out whilst wet will harden and become difficult to shift later. It is basically hidden, and can be a cause of grief such as this.
So, I’ve been advised to ensure only the finest glass media is used, and that on removal from the cabinet the component is tho thoroughly flushed whilst wet. I honestly can’t say it makes me happier…. keen to hear advices.
Awful news Nick, we’ll all be keen to hear the source of the issue.
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 26, 2022, 11:29:28 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 26, 2022, 11:41:35 AM
Certainly I'd not subject the interior of these engines to blasting of any media type. It brings too many questions that don't need to be considered.
The gasket faces for one, any bearing surfaces, any interior paint Honda used to prevent oil seep from original material porosity etc.
Completely enclosed, assembly with all ports plugged, all bolts substituted (unless you're going to subsequently plate them ) then I could see a case before then dismantling and refinish of outer surfaces.
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 26, 2022, 03:15:15 PM
No media blasting was done just careful pre cleaning of all components with cans and cans of parts cleaner on assembly. When the head and block was off initially I degreased them, washed, then steam cleaned all the hard to get to passageways before spraying out with parts cleaner before assemblingI suppose in theory, even though oil is observed getting up to the cam on a newly rebuilt engine at initial start up, it could take a few miles of riding to dislodge any debris that is in the bottom end, such as the dreaded silicone sealer, blobs of glass bead etc, etc.
Julie I reckon you're spot on and this is what happened. I'd been pretty surgically clean and really tried to make sure all oil routes were clear but I guess something somewhere blocked a jet and gave me the two fingers!!
So painful to fall on the last hurdle like this after a couple of years but I guess I'd be looking at ANOTHER tear down of the head etc anyway even if I'd discovered the oil blockage before meltdown. Just this is now even more of a costly one for parts and it now not going anywhere (will cancel my insurance on it now as it's just started) and almost beyond me putting anymore into it, moan moan f@#k s@*t
If when you strip the cam towers off and the oil jet is not blocked then, you have to look at the oilways in the towers. A lot of owners forget to check the oilways in the towers. When you find out what caused the problem and rebuild, when you start the engine do so, with the tappet covers off. This way you can see if oil is feeding the cam ;)
You have not said, if the engine was media blast cleaned.
I was double careful of all the tower oil passageways, metering jets ×2.
When I got the engine the bottom end was together just the barrels and head taken off, it had been taken apart by a friend who was a careful and had covered the opening with bubble wrap. I should have probably flushed out the crankcase then somehow but for some reason didn't. I stripped the oil pump completely, there was sludge on the mesh with what looked like possibly a little of rubber hose shavings... I later had to split the cases to get to the gearbox so made sure that whole area was spotless as could be with careful cleaning of the inside cases and with all remnants of the pervious sealant got rid off.
I wished I'd maybe used a cheap light engine oil and changed it after a few initial start ups/miles to help just flush the system then used the decent 15/40... might have spared this pain but maybe wishful hindsight thinking... F*#K!!!!!
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Post by: Oddjob on March 26, 2022, 03:18:10 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 26, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
If you are like me after beating yourself up you will find the cause and get it sorted best of luck with the investigation.
Post by: royhall on March 26, 2022, 06:34:34 PM
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Post by: Bristolbadger on March 26, 2022, 10:07:36 PM
I will shortly be selling some parts off a spare K5 engine. Not started stripping it yet so don't know the condition of the top end, but if your needing parts I can soon get the cam and towers off. PM me if your interested and we can work out a deal.Hi royhall thanks for this, very much appreciated, I'll pm you
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Post by: royhall on March 27, 2022, 03:25:41 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 30, 2022, 06:37:38 PM
Due to the modded frame I'm lucky to be able to whip the head off in situ as Nurse Julie thought, so that's something I guess.
Before that the oil metering jet on the right did have a damned sliver of the old white gasket seal from the cases the PO used and that I was so careful getting rid of... however a bit was there on the thin end when I took the jet out. The towers seem clear but not blown them out with cleaner yet to see what may emerge.
I sieved the oil through the sump plug and there was one other tiny bit of white sealant and a few globs of jelly like oil and tiny ally swarf from the holders & cam shaft I imagine...
I dropped the oil pan and there was sludge in there but no more sealant, same on the bottom of the pump mesh (none on the pump side though).
So... Roo popped round after my initial post and helped lift my dark and sweary mood with his enthusiasm, knowledge, and desire to help out a brother in need! ...and I've got to say my faith in human kindness has been restored. Cheers mate! Should have been on this forum from the start not the US one ::)
I've got another cam shaft and tower thanks to Roy but now it's over to you for expert advise on how to now proceed.
I'll thoroughly clean the head, towers, jets in a dishwasher and with steam and parts cleaner afterwards to make sure the oil ways are clear and replace the oil filter but to what do I do with the remainder of the engine.. is there a flush out of the lump I can do with the pump and filter out... pressurised diesel flush somehow maybe????
Am I clutching at straws to not have to split the bloody cases again? :-[
Post by: Trigger on March 30, 2022, 07:27:52 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 31, 2022, 10:43:13 AM
I thought you had this engine fully apart so, why is there so much sludge in the oil strainer. Engine building is down to clean , clean and clean again. All the oil ways will need a good clean including, the main oil gallery. You will only get the same problem again if there is one small bit tucked away in a oil way ;)
I'm not sure why either Trigger, I was as clean as could be, here's a pic of one half of the case before I put originally put her back together. Some was swarf from the freshly eaten tower & cam and some jelly like sludge possibly from the same
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 31, 2022, 11:29:21 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 31, 2022, 11:48:23 AM
I agree, that you can't be sure without much more extensive inspection.
I don't mind splitting them to work of them, would be more gutted to have it happen again though.
Post by: taysidedragon on March 31, 2022, 04:10:39 PM
Post by: Bryanj on March 31, 2022, 05:36:31 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on March 31, 2022, 07:58:17 PM
The sealant/blockage, by deduction, must have been present somewhere between the entrance where the oil filter bolt threads are (post filtration) and through the oil galleries from there onward until reaching the supply up the barrels.Yep I hear what your saying and as much as it'll pain me to spit the cases again at least it'll be thorough and my mind will be at rest when she's up and running again.
I agree, that you can't be sure without much more extensive inspection.
I don't mind splitting them to work of them, would be more gutted to have it happen again though.
It's more about having garage/workshop space to do it in. I've been evicted from the school boiler house that I built her in and really didn't expect to be going into the guts of the engine again... so soon anyway.
What a blast
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Post by: Bristolbadger on March 31, 2022, 08:02:43 PM
I have seen that jet blocked by a piece of gasket fallen into the oil feed from cleaning off head or base gasketAnd no way of knowing until it was too late? Hope it didn't do what mine did
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Post by: Bristolbadger on April 04, 2022, 02:38:13 PM
I've got a head gasket but it's not the graphite type like the previous one I used... it was from a closing down, old school bike shop/engineers and seems like it's more fiberous (composite?) and than the previous NE one that came in a set for the whole bike.
So how to proceed with it when I'm back at that stage... oil it, use copper spray seal or what?
Also another pertinent question that could be a contributing factor to my problem; I'm running a custom oil tank with the original hose unions at the engine end but connected with ID: 14.3mm hose. Do you think this will adversely affect the flow/pressure? Anyone know the original hose ID?
Cheers fer now
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 04, 2022, 02:54:52 PM
Post by: Trigger on April 04, 2022, 11:19:40 PM
Hi folks, so I'm making some progress on the repairs and have a few questions...
I've got a head gasket but it's not the graphite type like the previous one I used... it was from a closing down, old school bike shop/engineers and seems like it's more fiberous (composite?) and than the previous NE one that came in a set for the whole bike.
So how to proceed with it when I'm back at that stage... oil it, use copper spray seal or what?
Also another pertinent question that could be a contributing factor to my problem; I'm running a custom oil tank with the original hose unions at the engine end but connected with ID: 14.3mm hose. Do you think this will adversely affect the flow/pressure? Anyone know the original hose ID?
Cheers fer now
That gasket looks to be K1/K2. I thought you had a K5 which should have the dowel pins with a rubber seal around them. Can you post a picture of the top of your barrels to confirm ;)
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 05, 2022, 12:12:35 AM
Post by: Trigger on April 05, 2022, 01:15:43 AM
Bristol Badgers is a K3 Trigg
Will be OK for early K3 ;)
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 05, 2022, 01:19:25 AM
I’ve not dealt with these and he asked if he should soak it in oil as the chap at the shop advised. Is that the norm, it seems a terribly messy way of fitting a gasket??Bristol Badgers is a K3 Trigg
Will be OK for early K3 ;)
Never heard of doing that before, surely not??
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Post by: Bryanj on April 05, 2022, 04:14:27 AM
Post by: Bristolbadger on April 05, 2022, 08:52:50 AM
Bristol Badgers is a K3 Trigg
Will be OK for early K3 ;)
Good stuff, I wouldn't have had a prob taking it back to the guy if it wasn't a fit, just a shame I can't afford the MLS type HG same as I had on before.. it got de-lammed when I took the head off.
So what's the crack with these type, smear with oil, spray with copper coat or just put it on as dry as a Jackob's cracker?
I've now got the cases opened up and ready for some forensic cleaning... I've cut a 50gal plastic drum in half and plan to give her internals a spray rinse with something first.... but what? Diesel, Gunk, paraffin???? then to spray every orifice and oil gallery with parts cleaner before reassembly.
Info appreciated :)
Post by: Trigger on April 05, 2022, 09:13:13 AM
As Bryan has already stated, head gasket on dry.
There are many oil ways on a 750, main crank case, inside the crank, gearbox shafts, rocker towers, head, barrels. I wash in my parts wash using bottle brushes of all different sizes and a good blow out at 200 psi of air ;)
Post by: Bristolbadger on April 06, 2022, 10:05:44 PM
I've been busy cleaning up the head and blowing out all the oil routes and opened up the cases for a pressure rinse of white spirit and further manual cleaning!!! ... inbetween a job interview and work/fam commits...
Is it possible to flush an oil pump sufficiently without dismantling?
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Post by: Trigger on April 06, 2022, 11:10:34 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on April 29, 2022, 09:05:33 AM
So my run of good luck continues... this time the bastard, made-of-toffee, clutch lifter plate! Yep I broke it last night after being careful and taking my time to make sure it all was aligned... got to the final bolt torqueing (8ft lbs prob too much in hind sight) and snapped the plate. :(
So.... anyone have a spare they could part with please?
Badger
Post by: Trigger on April 29, 2022, 10:00:02 AM
https://good-bits.co.uk/product/cb750-sohc-clutch-actuating-hub/
Post by: Oddjob on April 29, 2022, 01:39:45 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on April 29, 2022, 01:48:58 PM
Post by: Oddjob on April 29, 2022, 01:50:41 PM
Edit.
Sorry, for some reason I was convinced yours was a 550, no idea why.
Yes that will fit.
Post by: Bristolbadger on May 17, 2022, 11:16:12 AM
Not the quietest engine around and need to reset the tensioner and recheck the valve clearances but she is what she is, a grumbling 48yr old lol.
So, lessons learnt ... I'm going to dump the oil and refill after a bit more running and a gentle mile or so. I first span her over with plugs out and got the oil pump doing its job after a moment or two and heard oil squelching up into the head, then fired her up and took the cover caps off expecting to see a lot of oil flinging around.
Whilst there is some (more of a fine mist) and everything looks wet and nice fresh oil coated, I just wondered if I should be seeing more going on up there?
Here's a vid - soz about the dodgy camerawork I had a torch in one hand, phone in the other and a beer that needed drinking on the ground
https://youtu.be/22DMBzUvSvE
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Post by: K2-K6 on May 17, 2022, 12:16:25 PM
The oil is not that much (in quantity terms) demanded around the camshaft. Most importantly is always to be there, present and reliable to keep it from damaging itself.
It's why they will run for a few miles after rebuilding originally that the assembly oil is sufficient until it goes dry that shows this. So as long as the supply is constant it won't show much in the way of total amount flying around in there.
They control the feed volume with those two restrictions and the leak down back to sump by the little pools created by casting to dip the cam lobes into, along with the drain holes going back down through the head.
Just keep checking the oil is there for each run initially to give you confidence that it's always there and that should be ok at that.
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 17, 2022, 12:39:54 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on May 17, 2022, 05:53:20 PM
Nice work to get going again.Yeah it's a nice feeling to have her running again. Largely thanks to Roy for parts and Laverdaroo for the space and letting me doss in his workshop to get her fixed up! Ace guys
The oil is not that much (in quantity terms) demanded around the camshaft. Most importantly is always to be there, present and reliable to keep it from damaging itself.
It's why they will run for a few miles after rebuilding originally that the assembly oil is sufficient until it goes dry that shows this. So as long as the supply is constant it won't show much in the way of total amount flying around in there.
They control the feed volume with those two restrictions and the leak down back to sump by the little pools created by casting to dip the cam lobes into, along with the drain holes going back down through the head.
Just keep checking the oil is there for each run initially to give you confidence that it's always there and that should be ok at that.
Nice one for that info, I understand it better now. So long as the little cam tower pools are filled and it's all nice and oily we should be good eh. I'm obviously a bit para now so will be whipping those caps off regularly too
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Post by: Bristolbadger on May 17, 2022, 05:55:08 PM
Well done, onwards and upwards.Well, usually sideways (but upright)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on May 17, 2022, 06:29:37 PM
Bloody liberty!
We had a good hoot tbh, shame to see you go bud apart from the space. Any fellow tea drinker, biscuit munching blue’s lover is always welcome. After I get back from the states we’ll have to go for a scootch and then get down the river for a bit of maggot drowning……
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Post by: Bristolbadger on May 17, 2022, 07:05:25 PM
And the last two times he came he brought no biccies!!!Chomp...chomp...chomp!! I'm sure TJW would approve of the beers as the biccy sub lol
Bloody liberty!
We had a good hoot tbh, shame to see you go bud apart from the space. Any fellow tea drinker, biscuit munching blue’s lover is always welcome. After I get back from the states we’ll have to go for a scootch and then get down the river for a bit of maggot drowning……
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Yeah mate well up for some fish pestering and a ride or two. Have fun in the States, I'm well jel
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Post by: Sesman on May 17, 2022, 07:29:27 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 18, 2022, 08:30:27 AM
Get a room you two.🥹
;D ;D
Post by: Bristolbadger on June 07, 2022, 08:35:25 PM
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esohc%2Eco%2Euk%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D28212%2E0&share_tid=28212&share_fid=50581&share_type=t&link_source=app
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