Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: paulbaker1954 on April 15, 2022, 07:56:00 AM
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Just noticed that if I push rear wheel there is a small amount of play movement in the swingarm.
How much play should there be (I assume the answe is none)?
Is it a difficult job to fix and what parts do I need to buy?
Thanks all
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If it is a tiny amount, pump it full of grease, it could take up the slack,
If it is a lot of movement,
Buy some new bushes from Nurse Julie,
It's not difficult, to replace them,
The trickiest is to get the old ones out,
I chickened out,I got a local engineer too remove and replace for about a tenner,
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
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Yes, I thought the same as John, a trip to nurse julie's parts surgery for the new bronze bushes should see you right as rain. ;D
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The collar wears as much ,if not more, than the bushes and is still available from Honda but expensive
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Paul I recently bought the needle roller conversion kit for the 500/550. It's made by Tourmax, a Japanese company, it's one of the best aftermarket mods I've ever seen, the attention to detail is superb.
It cost £120 ish, depending where you buy, ok so that sounds a lot BUT you get a new collar and this one is hard chromed and shouldn't wear like the OE one, the needle bearings look really good and there are special washers for the end gap which rotate internally. Factor in the cost of a new collar, £60 or so, new bushes, another £25 and then also factor in how long these are likely to last, the greasing system for the 500 isn't the best IMO, it goes through the spindle and out through 2 small holes, the problem is the grease exists inside the collar and you really want it between the collar and the bush which is where it always wears, there are 2 small holes in the collar but if these block with old grease very little gets where it's needed and hence the collar ends up being worn away. To me it's a maze inside there that the grease has to negotiate in order to get to where it's needed, you tend to stop pushing grease in when you see it exit between the end of the arm and the frame but there is absolutely no guarantee it's got to where it's needed, it will always find the easiest way out.
The only problem with the new needle conversion kit is that the existing greasing system on the 500 (not the 550) isn't suited for it as there are no holes in the new collar so you need to add a new grease nipple onto the swinging arm tube, just done mine and it was very easy to do.
Your choice, £120 and virtually forget it except for greasing or £85 (not including new felt washers or the 550 metal end caps) or so for the existing system which can last only a few years unless your lucky and the greasing system works as it should.
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I have done the Tourmax needle bearing swingarm conversion on my 74' CB 550K0. Between the needle bearings and the radial needle bearing end caps swingarm motion is so smooth now, there's absolutely no drag or play felt at all. Oddjob's grease fitting idea is a good one, I'll be doing it soon.
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The 550K0 may already be done Kelly, if you have a grease nipple under the swinging arm it's ok. If you have one either end of the swinging arm spindle you'll need to do it.
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The 550K0 may already be done Kelly, if you have a grease nipple under the swinging arm it's ok. If you have one either end of the swinging arm spindle you'll need to do it.
Nope, it's a early 74' 550 #449 and it came with the grease fittings on the end of the bolt.
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Paul I recently bought the needle roller conversion kit for the 500/550. It's made by Tourmax, a Japanese company, it's one of the best aftermarket mods I've ever seen, the attention to detail is superb.
It cost £120 ish, depending where you buy, ok so that sounds a lot BUT you get a new collar and this one is hard chromed and shouldn't wear like the OE one, the needle bearings look really good and there are special washers for the end gap which rotate internally. Factor in the cost of a new collar, £60 or so, new bushes, another £25 and then also factor in how long these are likely to last, the greasing system for the 500 isn't the best IMO, it goes through the spindle and out through 2 small holes, the problem is the grease exists inside the collar and you really want it between the collar and the bush which is where it always wears, there are 2 small holes in the collar but if these block with old grease very little gets where it's needed and hence the collar ends up being worn away. To me it's a maze inside there that the grease has to negotiate in order to get to where it's needed, you tend to stop pushing grease in when you see it exit between the end of the arm and the frame but there is absolutely no guarantee it's got to where it's needed, it will always find the easiest way out.
The only problem with the new needle conversion kit is that the existing greasing system on the 500 (not the 550) isn't suited for it as there are no holes in the new collar so you need to add a new grease nipple onto the swinging arm tube, just done mine and it was very easy to do.
Your choice, £120 and virtually forget it except for greasing or £85 (not including new felt washers or the 550 metal end caps) or so for the existing system which can last only a few years unless your lucky and the greasing system works as it should.
There are a couple of problems with the needle roller system. First is a needle bearing was designed to spin and not to just move back and forth. I have taken lots of these apart with notching problems and found the the needles in the bearings have gone flat, no problem you may think just get some new bearings. But, the bearings are a weird size and are under licence and are only available in the kit :o I have a number of shafts in good condition ( which never seem to wear ) from the kits but, can not get the bearings.
The second problem is the end caps are a two part turn system that need to be packed with grease. The road grit gets in them so, it is best to remove them once a year , clean them out and repack with grease again ;)
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An interesting observation Trig wrt that the bearing doesn’t actually spin, but rather ‘rocks’.
That said, I note my MotoGuzzi rear suspension (mono shock) uses needle rollers, which barring insufficient factory grease seem to be reliable enough once ‘properly’ lubed with a water resistant grease. (the unit is directly in line with the rear wheel, not good)
The bike has a couple of Achilles Heels, but this isn’t one of them. My guess is it boils down to quality of maintenance.
As an aside, would the ‘rock’ logic not also apply to steering head (ball) bearings if it were correct?
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Yes it does, which is why the original cup and cone with loose balls get notchy AND SO DO TAPER ROLLERS.
In a wheel bearing situation tapers will last well over 100,000 miles but i have seen "notchy" taper head bearings at less than 20,000 when i was testing.
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Quite a few of the later Hondas are using needle rollers now as well. My CB1300 has roller bearings at one end, 2 of them, and needle roller at the other. So long as they are greased they seem to last ok, however I got an advisory on play on it's first MOT, Honda seem to have forgotten what grease looks like.
I've actually found 4 new needle rollers for the kit, for the future, just in case it ever needs them.
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I don't feel that needle rollers have any problem at all with handling the loads encountered here, specific materials may have caused a problem (that's material integrity, specification though ) but the concept is sound and doesn't need to rotate to keep it alive.
There's difference in bearing design for roller arrangement, with crowded, no cage favouring highest load and lowest speed of movement. Caged, with seperated rollers usually in high axle speed demands.
Lubricant too, these slow and low angular applications need ordinarily molybdenum disulfide grease to pair with their movement characteristics if load is extreme. Driveline coupling does exactly this, with CV joint using balls in grooves with very little movement even during turning. Also propshaft UJ (universal joints) that use crowded needle type with very very low roll movements, again with molybdenum disulfide grease in high torque applications. These are almost identical in load and lubrication to the swingarm application.
Wheel bearings (ball race or taper roller) don't use molly grease as it builds heat in the bearings at continuous and raised speed installation, they ordinarily use lithium base grease that runs thin at point of contact to avoid this, reducing systemic friction too in comparison to molly type.
The needle type should have no problems if specified and lubricated properly. They of course have no thrust and need something to prevent sideways movement, but so do plain bushes.
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So are you suggesting using MolyD grease on the swinging arm if using needle rollers Nigel?
Funnily enough, just bought 2 new grease guns, ones for cartridge LM grease and the other I was thinking of filling with MolyD.
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So are you suggesting using MolyD grease on the swinging arm if using needle rollers Nigel?
Funnily enough, just bought 2 new grease guns, ones for cartridge LM grease and the other I was thinking of filling with MolyD.
Yes Ken, it's the right application for that, the headstock too.
There's absolutely no need for any speed (linear speed of bearings in that usage) with the MollyD being ideal for that movement and load handling environment.
On that vein, the original plastic type should benefit from using a PG75 grease for the best longevity with material usege originally.
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Found a cartridge of that grease just the other day, no idea why I bought it as I normally just have MolyD, LM, copper, nickel and silicon grease lying about. Got some red as well but not a big tin.
Kelly, look at where Honda put the grease nipple on the 550 swinging arm and just copy it. (look for pics on Ebay) IIRC it's 1140mm from either end, get a 6mm copper washer and lay it on the tunnel just above the weld seam, go up 2mm and drill in the centre of the washer, 5mm, tap to 6mm, locate nipple ( I used a straight small stainless steel one) then using a flat punch knock the copper washer to the shape of the curve of the tunnel. I usually weld a 6mm nut on for the nipple to thread into but thought I'd try this first.
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Thanks for all the replies
I have decided that as the play is very little will leave it and add to my winter to do list
Rather just be out riding now it’s warmer 😀😀😀
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If you are going to do that grease it before you go out every time
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Unlikely to stay warm though Paul especially as it's still early in the season. I'd personally remove the swinging arm bolt, drop it down whilst still in the frame and remove the collar etc, grease everything up really well after inspecting to what damage you can find. Do this when the weather isn't being so nice as leaving it all summer/autumn could mean when you actually get round to it that it requires more parts to fix than it may do now.
Bryan is also right saying grease before every ride but the only problem with that is that if you have play then the greasing system clearly failed at some point and there is no guarantee that greasing them now means that grease is actually getting to where it should do. In theory it should do but it only needs a small blockage or a plug of really hard grease and it looks like it working but it isn't.
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are you sure the movement is coming from the bearing itself? The swing arm on these bikes does flex a little as the MOT man used to show me.