Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: mattsz on November 13, 2018, 08:28:43 PM
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My starter button is very tight and it sticks when you push it in. Fortunately, the rest of the circuit is also bad and the solenoid just buzzes... rather than having the starter motor get stuck on and running! If I want to dismantle the module to clean and possibly rehab it over the winter, will I be able to just remove the mounting screws and disconnect wires at that location, or do I have to trace the wires back to the main harness? There's no light switch (US model), but the wires do run inside the bars... I'm hoping it's easy... ;D
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Wires are soldered inside the switch so can not be easily disconnected there. Have to be unplugged at other end and pulled through bars. Time to get a UK switch so you can turn the lights off mate
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Welcome to the world of Honda micro-surgery! It's not so much a difficult job, more of a time consuming adventure. Once you have delved into the hidden depths of the headlamp shell to dis-connect all the relevant wires, group them all together and securely tie a long piece of string/cord round them so that when you have disembowelled them through the handlebars, that's the method to use to replace them. From what I remember, the internals of the switch cluster are not exactly DIY friendly, it's a lot less hassle to install a new unit. Regarding the 'buzzing' solenoid, first check all the terminals are nice and clean and shiny, and then check the battery voltage. If the voltage is OK, and you are feeling brave, bridge the two large terminals on the solenoid with a screwdriver, if the engine spins over then it is probably a knackered solenoid. In my years of ownership, have replaced solenoid once, and handlebar switches three times. Keep smiling and Merry Christmas. Regards, Mick.
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As TrickyMicky suggested, unplug the switch wires from the loom in the headlamp shell and romove the switch assembly. The connections are held in place by some small screws. Best to do this on a tray so you don't lose anything. There's a couple of ball bearings and small springs so be careful.
Clean everything up so the contacts are all nice and shiny. Resolder any wires that look iffy. Reassemble using grease to hold the springs and ball bearings in place.
They're a lot easier to repair than Suzuki switches.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks guys! I think I'll probably leave it for now, it's ready for winter hibernation, and I've got the carbs and front brake parts to keep me busy.
Bryanj - I'd like the light switching option - I'll have to look into that, and whether it's as simple as adding the switch. My US-spec 2000 Kawasaki W650 has different wiring than the rest of the worlds', it's a major job to retrofit a switch.
TrickyMicky - thanks for the suggestions. I'm not worried about the starter's current operation, or lack thereof - The battery is shot, I hooked up a different one just long enough to try to crank the motor over and see if I could build some oil pressure (tested it by hand first!) - that's when I discovered that the start button was sticky, and that the solenoid wouldn't make the connection anyway...
mike the bike - noted, thank you!
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If you send the switch to me and pay for the return postage I'll refurbish it for you.
Send both switches and I'll refurb both. I won't charge a fellow 400four owner.
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It is just the switch different, Honda used the same loom for all the markets. Lots of imported US bikes here in UK have had this done. There may be a slight difference in starter butten/solenoid wireing but nothing majour and very easy to do.
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If you send the switch to me and pay for the return postage I'll refurbish it for you.
Send both switches and I'll refurb both. I won't charge a fellow 400four owner.
That's most generous, thank you! Worth looking into postage, though these days I'm sure it ain't cheap! I won't be able to do anything about it before next spring at any rate. If I'm honest, I like the idea of doing it myself - an engine rebuild seems totally over my head, but a switch rebuild? Lemme at it!
It is just the switch different, Honda used the same loom for all the markets. Lots of imported US bikes here in UK have had this done. There may be a slight difference in starter butten/solenoid wireing but nothing majour and very easy to do.
Good to know, I'll keep it in mind!
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Worth looking into postage, though these days I'm sure it ain't cheap
I didn't notice you live on the left side of the pond.
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I didn't notice you live on the left side of the pond.
England, but "new"... ;)
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Geologically, it's about the same age as old England.
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Geologically, it's about the same age as old England.
;D
But geology aside - you guys have 7-11's older than most of our "historic" buildings...
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I removed the switch module today. I started in the headlight shell. Not sure why - if I had thought about it, I could have guessed that since the US models have no lighting switches (only starter and kill switches), it was likely the wires don't go there. Which they don't - they all go right down and around to the bundle of connectors beneath the tank on the left side.
I haven't delved in too deeply yet, but I did observe that when I loosened the two screws that secure the switch housing, the sticking starter button became much less sticky, so maybe something is loose or broken inside. I also found that one of the black wires had a bit of open insulation right where it took a hard turn into the connector at the frame, with bare wire showing through. Trying to sort out the wiring diagram to figure out whether it's already a ground wire, or if it could be a problem...
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Black wires are switched power wires on Honda's I.E. live when ignition switch is turned on.
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Black wires are switched power wires on Honda's I.E. live when ignition switch is turned on.
There you go, then. It was bundled up inside that "rubber" sock encasing all those connectors, so I don't think it's likely it would have caused a short-circuit fault, but still probably a good thing to have found and fix!
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As TrickyMicky suggested, unplug the switch wires from the loom in the headlamp shell and romove the switch assembly. The connections are held in place by some small screws. Best to do this on a tray so you don't lose anything. There's a couple of ball bearings and small springs so be careful.
Clean everything up so the contacts are all nice and shiny. Resolder any wires that look iffy. Reassemble using grease to hold the springs and ball bearings in place.
They're a lot easier to repair than Suzuki switches.
Hope this helps.
No headlamp shell wiring, as stated earlier, but as for the rest... I never stood a chance! (click on the thumbnail to zoom in on the carnage)
[attach=1]
I took just a couple of turns on the little screw that holds the starter switch in the handlebar housing, and all the bits just tumbled out. Broken switch, as you can see. No wonder it didn't work well! I think even a Suzuki switch would be easier to repair than this one...
I don't think I lost any parts, though - only one switch, so only one ball. Are these starter switch units available, or is a whole new starter/kill switch housing in my future? If the latter, I think I'll look for one with switchable lights...
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You cant repair or get new that part so its another switch i'm afraid
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3-D printing, anyone? $15 shipped. Looks like I've got some research to do...
https://www.shapeways.com/product/RDM6ZT62Y/cb550-starter-switch-housing-replacement?li=shareProduct (https://www.shapeways.com/product/RDM6ZT62Y/cb550-starter-switch-housing-replacement?li=shareProduct)
(https://images2.sw-cdn.net/product/picture/710x528_17324693_10144092_1484524502.jpg)
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I sent you a pm with an alternative mate
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3-D printing, anyone? $15 shipped. Looks like I've got some research to do...
https://www.shapeways.com/product/RDM6ZT62Y/cb550-starter-switch-housing-replacement?li=shareProduct (https://www.shapeways.com/product/RDM6ZT62Y/cb550-starter-switch-housing-replacement?li=shareProduct)
I got this link from the US forum - in one of the long threads, someone with a CB400F claims to have made this work. I think, at only $15 shipped to my door, I'm basically obligated to try this, wouldn't you guys say?
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At that price worth a try but take pics as you go and report back. I just hope that as its a UK firm that it works on a US switch that does not have a lights on/off
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Shapeways.com was founded in The Netherlands, but is based in New York. Measured and modeled by two guys in the US from their US-spec CB550...
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Great, when i looked at the link i thought it was priced in £ so guessed it was UK but then you should never assume.
Go for it i think all that type of switch has the same starter button.
The difference is that early bike with lights on/off had a solenoid that had power with key on and was grounded at the bars but later bikes had no light switch as lights came on with key(US rules) and the solenoid had a permanent ground and was fed power from the button which turned lights off at same time to give starting current.
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Great, when i looked at the link i thought it was priced in £ so guessed it was UK but then you should never assume.
Go for it i think all that type of switch has the same starter button.
The difference is that early bike with lights on/off had a solenoid that had power with key on and was grounded at the bars but later bikes had no light switch as lights came on with key(US rules) and the solenoid had a permanent ground and was fed power from the button which turned lights off at same time to give starting current.
Maybe it's one of those "smart" sites that knows where you are, and adjust accordingly. I see there's a pull-down which allows one to change country and currency, the price changes accordingly...
I've got the latter (later) type - no light switch. As you say, starter switch has two positions - normally closed contacts feet the headlight. Pushing the button temporarily engages normally open contacts for starter solenoid, and kills the headlight...
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The original pieces, and the 3D-printed replacement:
[attach=1]
I've got the metal parts soaking in penetrating oil overnight; I'll clean them and try to reassemble tomorrow.
I realize I didn't explain about this very well... US SOHC forum member Smudgemo and his neighbor measured his broken switch housing and created a 3D CAD file for it, then submitted it to the printing firm, who will sell you one directly. Here's a post which covers the basics (it's part of a longer thread, but there's many missing photobucket pics throughout):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163170.msg1931745.html#msg1931745 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163170.msg1931745.html#msg1931745)
And, a link to his 10-minute Youtube video showing the process step-by-step:
https://youtu.be/Jirl6UqFSyE (https://youtu.be/Jirl6UqFSyE)
So I'll post my experience here, but the links above provide great detail about this smart little product...
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Just out of curiosity, are there any spare UK or Euro right-hand switch modules (with the "off-park-headlight" switch) for the CF400F floating around? Or are they rare and valuable?
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DS sells both original and pattern 400/4 switch modules.
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DS sells both original and pattern 400/4 switch modules.
Thanks Laverda - the ones shown on the DS website don't look quite right... maybe just because they're new, and my original ones are somewhat faded? That's why I was asking about original spares, maybe off wrecks or custom builds. But as I suggested, maybe these are rare and/or valuable, and I understand the pitfalls of buying 40-year-old electrics of unknown history.
Are the originals sold by DS really just that? Does anyone know if there are drastic differences in quality between their original and pattern ones?
Also, my bike is a '77 USA spec, which never came with the switchable lights; DS doesn't sell these modules from their US store, so I'd have to order from the UK either way. Also, my bike has higher handlebars, which apparently weren't available originally in the UK? So I'm wondering if the wires on a UK spec switch module would be too short? I understand that there's guys on this forum with '77 USA imports who have made the "switch" (sorry!)... any issues?
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I bought new switch assembles from DS and they are exactly the same as the old ones although of course 'new' and therefore without the rubbing off of paint as you'd have with used parts. It does sound though that you may have a problem with cable length for your higher bars.
You may have to go the US breaker route to get the parts you need.
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I bought new switch assembles from DS and they are exactly the same as the old ones although of course 'new' and therefore without the rubbing off of paint as you'd have with used parts. It does sound though that you may have a problem with cable length for your higher bars.
You may have to go the US breaker route to get the parts you need.
I don't know if that's an option: the US bikes went to the high bars for '77, but didn't have switchable lights by then... is there an easy way to figure out what parts might be interchangeable between models?
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I think the UK switch will work but of course like new, even if the wires are a bit short they can be extended easily and the big advantage is the lights do not come on as soon as the key is turned!
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The original pieces, and the 3D-printed replacement:
(Attachment Link)
I've got the metal parts soaking in penetrating oil overnight; I'll clean them and try to reassemble tomorrow.
I realize I didn't explain about this very well... US SOHC forum member Smudgemo and his neighbor measured his broken switch housing and created a 3D CAD file for it, then submitted it to the printing firm, who will sell you one directly. Here's a post which covers the basics (it's part of a longer thread, but there's many missing photobucket pics throughout):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163170.msg1931745.html#msg1931745 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,163170.msg1931745.html#msg1931745)
And, a link to his 10-minute Youtube video showing the process step-by-step:
https://youtu.be/Jirl6UqFSyE (https://youtu.be/Jirl6UqFSyE)
So I'll post my experience here, but the links above provide great detail about this smart little product...
Job done. I didn't bother with pics, as there's plenty on the linked thread, and the video speaks for itself.
My switch works again - at least it passes all the VOM tests. I can recommend this thing for the US spec CB400F switch... with very minor reservations: the guy makes it look very easy on the video, and it wasn't so easy when I did it - I believe that there may be some "error" in the 3D print process that was used to make this switch body, and that maybe the plastic ended up a little too... "thick?"... in all dimensions - if such a thing is possible? The openings were all just a hair too small, so the little tabs on the switch parts didn't seat easily - although they did eventually. The start switch button bound slightly in it's u-shaped slot; I had to scrape some of the plastic away until it moved freely. And once I got the parts situated inside the switch body, they flexed it so it ended up being a bit too thick to fit into the handlebar housing. I ended up using a sharp utility knife blade as a scraper to shave a bit off the sides until it fit easily. I've communicated my experience to the designer, to see if he has any thoughts. In his video, everything dropped right into place with minimal bother...
If I did it again, I'd test fit the empty shell in the handlebar housing, and maybe hit it with some sandpaper before installing the switch guts. Still and overall, though, I'd call it a success! $15 (in the US, anyway) to keep my otherwise original and working handlebar housing intact. 4.5 out of 5 stars.
I'll still consider changing over to switchable headlights, however...
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Excellent work with a sense of satisfaction 👍👏
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Excellent work with a sense of satisfaction 👍👏
First small step forward after a number of steps back... ;)