Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: Oddjob on November 09, 2023, 01:13:05 AM
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Just wondering if anyone has ever checked or compared the profile of a Cruzinimage piston against a genuine Honda one.
I'm reading some really negative stuff about aftermarket pistons and especially about the quality of Cruzinimage piston rings, notoriously the 350 four ones which are reportedly very soft and wear extremely quickly. Reports I may add that come from a very experienced mechanic and certified Honda/Kawasaki mechanic trainer, not the sort of person to shout wolf you'd image.
I've seen an image where 2 pistons are joined on the same gudgeon pin, so they sit side by side and it's impossible to get them misaligned as that's exactly where they'd sit on the conrod, the rings were in different positions, the crowns didn't align or even look the same, Hondas are normally flat and the aftermarket was really domed, this would seriously affect the compression.
Another image of Cruzinimage rings after less than 500 miles, both a before and after picture showing ring end gap, it had doubled in less than 500 miles, which is worrying as a lot of members have fitted these kits.
Not trying to scare anyone here, just wondering IF anyone had done a comparison, especially of the piston. Just curious to see how they compare.
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When i get Doms barrels back i will compare with art and yoshi for you Ken, i have some from Aus that are domed as hc pistons so can put them on as well for you
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Just wondering if anyone has ever checked or compared the profile of a Cruzinimage piston against a genuine Honda one.
I'm reading some really negative stuff about aftermarket pistons and especially about the quality of Cruzinimage piston rings, notoriously the 350 four ones which are reportedly very soft and wear extremely quickly. Reports I may add that come from a very experienced mechanic and certified Honda/Kawasaki mechanic trainer, not the sort of person to shout wolf you'd image.
I've seen an image where 2 pistons are joined on the same gudgeon pin, so they sit side by side and it's impossible to get them misaligned as that's exactly where they'd sit on the conrod, the rings were in different positions, the crowns didn't align or even look the same, Hondas are normally flat and the aftermarket was really domed, this would seriously affect the compression.
Another image of Cruzinimage rings after less than 500 miles, both a before and after picture showing ring end gap, it had doubled in less than 500 miles, which is worrying as a lot of members have fitted these kits.
Not trying to scare anyone here, just wondering IF anyone had done a comparison, especially of the piston. Just curious to see how they compare.
Just glad I followed my gut instinct and old school axiom of 'you get what you pay for' and always fitted genuine pistons and rings to all of my bikes. My concerns were that there were some bad reports about their rubber products failing very prematurely, so my logic was that if they are selling those of poor quality, then what about the other stuff they sell. Just hope I am wrong for the sake of others who have used their products. If they are anything like the other Japanese companies I have dealt with, then they won't respond well to any complaints.
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
IMD sell Cruzinimage pistons / rings. Personally, I've never had a problem with Cruzinimage kits on my own bikes and we've never had reports from customers that they have had problems either. But, i also read a couple of years ago about 350 piston rings being not a good fit but that was on a twin not a four.
Edit... Forgot to say that Cruzinimage rings are Riken, which is what Honda use.
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
Possibility https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255571788913 but a little pricey.
Seems to be only pistons, but 6 available https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285149322144
Both sets 0.25mm over sized.
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Oh I'm loving reading this thread!
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Never had any issues with mine and the 400/4 gets some hammer as anyone who has one will know, you have to keep them buzzing ;D
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Oh I'm loving reading this thread!
I think it's an interesting thread Dom. There are lots of forum members that have Cruzinimage piston / ring kits fitted by Graham after engine builds and re bores , so it will be good to hear if they have had any issues they haven't told us about. My own personal experience is that they are a good piston / ring kit and I do a lot of miles on my bikes, if there was an issue, it would have presented itself by now.
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
Possibility https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255571788913 but a little pricey.
Seems to be only pistons, but 6 available https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285149322144
Both sets 0.25mm over sized.
Gez, reassuringly expensive as they say🥴. Thanks for the tip Nigel, I might well go the original route but interesting comment from Julie about the ring manufacturer. I've yet to measure the bores but I do know the original pistons are in there and the bike has done 46,000! I remember the magazines in the 70’s say Jap bikes wear out due to the high revs, I don't think so🙂
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
Edit... Forgot to say that Cruzinimage rings are Riken, which is what Honda use.
If they are genuine Riken then you would expect them to work just fine. Do they have the 'R' stamping on them Julie? That would be a good indication.
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I'm reading some really negative stuff about aftermarket pistons and especially about the quality of Cruzinimage piston rings, notoriously the 350 four ones which are reportedly very soft and wear extremely quickly. Reports I may add that come from a very experienced mechanic and certified Honda/Kawasaki mechanic trainer, not the sort of person to shout wolf you'd image.
Any links to posts discussing this please Ken?
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I'm pretty sure my top ring had an R on it.
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I'm pretty sure my top ring had an R on it.
Yes, R is Riken.
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That's a bit worrying considering I was going to buy a set for the rat bike rebore! Are there any other makes apart from Honda? I think I used an IMD(?) Piston kit in the 250RSA, hopefully they do a set for the 400/4. Do Cruzinimage makes pistons and rings for anyone else?
I have a set of new genuine NOS Honda 400 oversize pistons & rings that I bought for a spare engine that I recently sold so they are now in my bedroom wardrobe waiting to be sold.
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Genuine Honda were made by Art
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I'm not sure if the rings Cruzinimage were using a few years ago are the same as what they are using now.. The image of the new rings fitted down the bore prior to fitting showed them stamped with the oversize number not an R.
Saying that, aren't Honda ones stamped with a T, meaning Top?. Like an orientation marking not a manufacturers marking?
As for no reports of problems with the pistons/rings fitted by members, would there really be any yet? They don't seize or do anything that would make you suspect them, the rings just wear fast according to what I'm reading, we don't really do THAT many miles on our bikes these days so the problem may not show for a few years, the first thing would be a drop in performance as the compression went down, as the bikes recently had a rebore etc that last thing you'd suspect would be that, you'd go through everything else. After some more miles had passed maybe they'd start to allow oil to be burned, so a little blue smoke maybe, we'd suspect valve stems seals etc before we'd suspect the rings.
I was very hesitant to promote fitting Cruzinimage in the past, like a lot of ex mechanics we don't like aftermarket parts, they tend not to fit well and be of poor quality, however after reading so many members who had fitted them or had them fitted by others on their behalf I came to the conclusion that they must be ok. I'm not saying now that they are not, I'm just saying reports out on the web are saying they might not be as good as we first thought, it might also explain the defensive attitude that Cruzinimage exhibits to criticism, after a few complaints you tend to get very defensive.
I'll not say where I'm reading this yet Ash, let's see if there may be some truth in it first, I have reasons for not linking it in, most notably because some members will get really upset over some of the other posts and I don't want to do that.
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Ah yes, I've recently read Mike Nixons Cycle Project myths and tips on the CB350. He was saying it was common knowledge the Cruzinimage big bore kits for the CB350/4 had soft piston rings, leading to probably wearing out the rings resulting in oil burning within a few hundred miles of fitting. So yes, that's a known problem. We never fit big bore kits to our own engines or any customers.
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The reports i have seen on the US site were all 350 four which have the smallest bore size of all the fours and have the tightest tolerance piston to bore.
Most, if not all the reports have eventually concluded that the machinists doing the work did not work to Honda specs because in their opinion it was too tight and would sieze, a fact disproved by a later, understanding, machinist.
Now i have never even seen a 350 four in person, let alone worked on one but the 400 is bad enough and requires a smaller boring bar than i have making me wonder if these US machinists were simly honing out the metal and not boring properly.
Just my own thoughts with no certain proof
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I'll not say where I'm reading this yet Ash, let's see if there may be some truth in it first, I have reasons for not linking it in, most notably because some members will get really upset over some of the other posts and I don't want to do
Send the link, I need a little stimulus….
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Oh, I love this Nixon bloke. I can see what you mean now, Ken.
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I fitted Cruzinimage pistons and rings to my 400four , it's done well over 1000 miles since rebuild and absolutely no problems whatsoever.
I wonder if there are any fakes out there. Any successful, popular brand of anything these days gets copied by Chinese/Far East rip off merchants.
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Yes to be honest I'm not at risk of putting mega mileage on my 550 so I won't lose any sleep over it
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Ah yes, I've recently read Mike Nixons Cycle Project myths and tips on the CB350. He was saying it was common knowledge the Cruzinimage big bore kits for the CB350/4 had soft piston rings, leading to probably wearing out the rings resulting in oil burning within a few hundred miles of fitting. So yes, that's a known problem. We never fit big bore kits to our own engines or any customers.
You would imagine though Julie that Cruzinimage sourced the rings from the same place they source their other rings from IF they don't make them themselves. The rings in question were labelled 3.00 so that makes them 50mm x 50mm, with the 400 being 51mm x 50mm, that makes you worry about the 400 rings.
IF I had a 350 that needed a bore I'd be thinking of either fitting a set of 400 barrels (if that's possible) or if it's not then fitting the liners out of a 400 set of barrels into the 350 barrels, like I'm doing with the 550 liners into a set of 500 barrels. And yes I know the 550 barrels already fit onto 500 cases (except early cases that is) but I have a set of 500 barrels with good fins (but really rusty liners) and a set of 550 barrels with loads of broken fins but really good liners. Saves binning them both.
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Oh, I love this Nixon bloke. I can see what you mean now, Ken.
Yeah, some nasty comments about the SOHC.net site and certain members on there. Also not a big fan of Mark Paris and his 750 book.
You see the comments about NOT honing bores except after a rebore and even then only with specialised equipment? Interesting.
I've actually been talking to Mike regarding the special tool for adjusting the clutch adjuster on the 500-4, never knew there was one but I've got the part number now and Roo is sourcing me one from the USA whilst he's over there.
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Ah yes, I've recently read Mike Nixons Cycle Project myths and tips on the CB350. He was saying it was common knowledge the Cruzinimage big bore kits for the CB350/4 had soft piston rings, leading to probably wearing out the rings resulting in oil burning within a few hundred miles of fitting. So yes, that's a known problem. We never fit big bore kits to our own engines or any customers.
You would imagine though Julie that Cruzinimage sourced the rings from the same place they source their other rings from IF they don't make them themselves. The rings in question were labelled 3.00 so that makes them 50mm x 50mm, with the 400 being 51mm x 50mm, that makes you worry about the 400 rings.
I don't think the Cruzinimage 3.0 over big bore kits use the same piston rings as the 400/4 on their 0.25/.50/. 75 over. They have different marking on them and I've read the 350 big bore rings have a different profile or shape on the oil rings. But, as always, it's owners choice what they use.
But, stock of OEM 400/4 pistons / rings etc are very limited these days. Even Yamiya sell the Cruzinimage kits and they aren't know for selling dodgy products.
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I've got big bore kits on my standard 750k2 and CR750 Rep. About 4000 miles on K2 and 300 miles on the CR - no issues at all
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Offtopic, but I note Mike mentions not having to live with brake squeal, but I don’t see an article on how to cure it. Did I miss it?
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Offtopic, but I note Mike mentions not having to live with brake squeal, but I don’t see an article on how to cure it. Did I miss it?
https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/brake_ills.html
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Thanks, Julie. I’ve just noticed the ‘more tech articles’. Need to go to spec savers (other opticians are available).🫣👍
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Interesting info in that article Julie!
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Thanks, Julie. I’ve just noticed the ‘more tech articles’. Need to go to spec savers (other opticians are available).🫣👍
He's written loads and loads of articles, write ups, etc, etc. He's a bit of an arrogant so and so but I usually find people that have knowledge based on years of personal experience usually are.
If you look up Motorcycleproject. com there is loads to read. Whether you agree with it or not is a totally different matter of course.
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There are amusing notes in there....
"Brake squeal, whether disc or drum, is generally a matter of vibration."
Well it's all vibration else you wouldn't hear it at all, therefore no reason to change anything :)
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Are Cruzinimage the same as Crumage is it an abreviation?
I thought it has been well known that the rings are prone to wear quicker than original but not generally an issue as restored bikes tend not to cover the distances.
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Are Cruzinimage the same as Crumage is it an abreviation?
I thought it has been well known that the rings are prone to wear quicker than original but not generally an issue as restored bikes tend not to cover the distances.
I wouldn't say that statement was true Ted, ALL rings should be fit for purpose and they should all be made of a metal that resists wear as much as possible. If the rings are wearing out quickly then it's false economy to buy them as the gaskets/oil etc that you need to buy to replace them due to the excessive wear makes them dearer not cheaper to fit. Not so bad on engines where you can take the barrels off in the frame but on a 750 for instance all that extra work is really something you want to avoid if at all possible.
Hence why I think members should be informed of the potential for this to happen, especially as good gaskets etc as getting harder and harder to find.
As for brake squeal, got to disagree slightly Nige, a lot of people think it's copper and other metal parts in the pad which cause brake squeal, generally I think because that's the noise they hear when they apply the brake, they change the pads and the noise goes away, which they think supports that theory but they miss the fact that they've also changed the backing plate at the same time and it's usually that which is causing the problem. Maybe he should have phrased it better, saying 80% vibration and 20% other factors? It's been well reported on here that chamfering the edges has worked, is that because it was the edge or just because they disturbed the pad doing it?
If nothing else he's getting people talking about these problems and possibly introducing other theories.