Post by: Eldrick on January 22, 2024, 02:37:51 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 22, 2024, 02:39:49 PM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 22, 2024, 02:40:05 PM
I think Wemoto can supply stainless ones, and seals
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Post by: Eldrick on January 22, 2024, 02:49:35 PM
Yes,I am seeing a few suppliers, prices from £20 tru £85
I think Wemoto can supply stainless ones, and seals
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Post by: Oddjob on January 22, 2024, 02:59:51 PM
Post by: Eldrick on January 22, 2024, 03:04:56 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252049953322?hash=item3aaf59122a:g:O5QAAOSwd0BVxZ-p&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DyFQTtO6ABmuN0eHGfrEfleQUQcpAMdzJx4uWlTQIhpWHkBlB9Z5pkrK8kIWtjqWQtwq%2BG2JwJaWFo7dK%2FuJeMK1fNHCyJY5LTLNXjlbVnMHeH%2FeHD2qbiXipKtrj4uxLfCKRlTp%2FWsiPqOyG6vP9Iv%2FRTU5x%2FY4sZ8l3Z0Ohyeq5K%2B8Ox%2BCi%2Fm4rFAVCU5VqSOPdbGmMjMzwwvqTT6W1Hi2cp%2FRYYyIfyXd4zGa2wLcsOdxL6%2Ft6VNtDxewMBUEUqP%2BsvR7m4mUe1i7e2LHSMpuPU5PWp2tQLaaDY7lEd4AY6kF6qy1YjTzn%2Fzx0Gx5Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-rJ9ZqmYw (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252049953322?hash=item3aaf59122a:g:O5QAAOSwd0BVxZ-p&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DyFQTtO6ABmuN0eHGfrEfleQUQcpAMdzJx4uWlTQIhpWHkBlB9Z5pkrK8kIWtjqWQtwq%2BG2JwJaWFo7dK%2FuJeMK1fNHCyJY5LTLNXjlbVnMHeH%2FeHD2qbiXipKtrj4uxLfCKRlTp%2FWsiPqOyG6vP9Iv%2FRTU5x%2FY4sZ8l3Z0Ohyeq5K%2B8Ox%2BCi%2Fm4rFAVCU5VqSOPdbGmMjMzwwvqTT6W1Hi2cp%2FRYYyIfyXd4zGa2wLcsOdxL6%2Ft6VNtDxewMBUEUqP%2BsvR7m4mUe1i7e2LHSMpuPU5PWp2tQLaaDY7lEd4AY6kF6qy1YjTzn%2Fzx0Gx5Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-rJ9ZqmYw)Yes, I think I will get the part from them, I will go direct to the website and get pads too.
I was just about to ask if that supplier had a good reputation, mainly because I did not see Julies' store having the part. Nor does 400fourbits have a nice enough replacement.
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2024, 03:55:06 PM
Post by: Mikep328 on January 22, 2024, 04:34:17 PM
FWIW, I overhauled the front brake on my 400 last year. It had been worked on by the shop that sold it to me, which included a new SS piston/aftermarket seal. The brake was ABYSMAL and that's generous; the rear brake generated more stopping power!
I went through the brake, removed the (new) SS piston they had installed and replaced it with a (way more expensive) Honda piston, replaced the (new) aftermarket seals with Honda (way more expensive) seals, and replaced the brake lines. With a new set of pads and some serious attention to breaking them in properly, the front brake was transformed into a very good brake!
Post by: Matt_Harrington on January 22, 2024, 05:24:14 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252049953322?hash=item3aaf59122a:g:O5QAAOSwd0BVxZ-p&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DyFQTtO6ABmuN0eHGfrEfleQUQcpAMdzJx4uWlTQIhpWHkBlB9Z5pkrK8kIWtjqWQtwq%2BG2JwJaWFo7dK%2FuJeMK1fNHCyJY5LTLNXjlbVnMHeH%2FeHD2qbiXipKtrj4uxLfCKRlTp%2FWsiPqOyG6vP9Iv%2FRTU5x%2FY4sZ8l3Z0Ohyeq5K%2B8Ox%2BCi%2Fm4rFAVCU5VqSOPdbGmMjMzwwvqTT6W1Hi2cp%2FRYYyIfyXd4zGa2wLcsOdxL6%2Ft6VNtDxewMBUEUqP%2BsvR7m4mUe1i7e2LHSMpuPU5PWp2tQLaaDY7lEd4AY6kF6qy1YjTzn%2Fzx0Gx5Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-rJ9ZqmYw (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252049953322?hash=item3aaf59122a:g:O5QAAOSwd0BVxZ-p&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DyFQTtO6ABmuN0eHGfrEfleQUQcpAMdzJx4uWlTQIhpWHkBlB9Z5pkrK8kIWtjqWQtwq%2BG2JwJaWFo7dK%2FuJeMK1fNHCyJY5LTLNXjlbVnMHeH%2FeHD2qbiXipKtrj4uxLfCKRlTp%2FWsiPqOyG6vP9Iv%2FRTU5x%2FY4sZ8l3Z0Ohyeq5K%2B8Ox%2BCi%2Fm4rFAVCU5VqSOPdbGmMjMzwwvqTT6W1Hi2cp%2FRYYyIfyXd4zGa2wLcsOdxL6%2Ft6VNtDxewMBUEUqP%2BsvR7m4mUe1i7e2LHSMpuPU5PWp2tQLaaDY7lEd4AY6kF6qy1YjTzn%2Fzx0Gx5Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-rJ9ZqmYw)
Bought one a few weeks back from them and it arrived promptly and a decent product.
Yes, I think I will get the part from them, I will go direct to the website and get pads too.
I was just about to ask if that supplier had a good reputation, mainly because I did not see Julies' store having the part. Nor does 400fourbits have a nice enough replacement.
Post by: Oddjob on January 22, 2024, 06:42:24 PM
Yes, replace the piston.
FWIW, I overhauled the front brake on my 400 last year. It had been worked on by the shop that sold it to me, which included a new SS piston/aftermarket seal. The brake was ABYSMAL and that's generous; the rear brake generated more stopping power!
I went through the brake, removed the (new) SS piston they had installed and replaced it with a (way more expensive) Honda piston, replaced the (new) aftermarket seals with Honda (way more expensive) seals, and replaced the brake lines. With a new set of pads and some serious attention to breaking them in properly, the front brake was transformed into a very good brake!
Not being funny here Mike but the fact you did so much work on it all at the same time sort of confuses what was causing the poor brake performance, doing one change at a time is far more informative as it highlights what was the problem, it could have been such a simple thing as air in the lines and you changing the lines fixed that problem.
Post by: Bryanj on January 22, 2024, 08:03:04 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 22, 2024, 08:59:38 PM
Some people disagree but i have always had good service from him, buy the kit with the seal and clean the seal groove out meticulously
I too have had parts from "Honda Classics" without problems & delivered quickly - I think it's the restoration side of the business where they fall well short of any sort of perfection. It might be they were good at restoration in the past but Peter's (teenybop1) recent experience illustrates how far that side of the business has slipped.
Like my Dad used to say a workshops reputation is only as good as its worst mechanic.
That is probably why good bike restorers tend to be one man bands who guard their repuaution that takes years for them to build & why they often become expensive.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 22, 2024, 09:32:10 PM
Yes, replace the piston.
FWIW, I overhauled the front brake on my 400 last year. It had been worked on by the shop that sold it to me, which included a new SS piston/aftermarket seal. The brake was ABYSMAL and that's generous; the rear brake generated more stopping power!
I went through the brake, removed the (new) SS piston they had installed and replaced it with a (way more expensive) Honda piston, replaced the (new) aftermarket seals with Honda (way more expensive) seals, and replaced the brake lines. With a new set of pads and some serious attention to breaking them in properly, the front brake was transformed into a very good brake!
Not being funny here Mike but the fact you did so much work on it all at the same time sort of confuses what was causing the poor brake performance, doing one change at a time is far more informative as it highlights what was the problem, it could have been such a simple thing as air in the lines and you changing the lines fixed that problem.
While it may not give us step by step analysis of the brake in question, it does serve to show that performance in a properly operating std system is much better than general statements that pervade the great wide Internet will have us believe....that what do you expect, they are just old brakes....that's often trotted out.
The performance isn't that bad, they were easily under 30ft stopping distance from 30 mph when new and we should be able to get them perfectly up to matching their performance capabilities now.
Post by: Mikep328 on January 22, 2024, 11:17:10 PM
The 1977 Cycle World test showed the CB400 stopped from 60MPH in 135 feet. Interestingly, it is the same stopping distance that Cycle World reported for a 2022 Honda CB1000R.
IMO the "common knowledge" that the brakes on a CB400 "were never very good" is not supported by actual road tests. If returned to "like new" condition, they work as well as modern brakes...or at least as good as the brakes on a 2022 Honda CB1000R! ;)
Post by: teenybop1 on January 23, 2024, 07:59:09 AM
100% correct Ted, clearly whoever done the restoration side has left the business, leaving a parts man/marketing guy to attempt to provide a service. And failing miserably.its a handy shop to pick up parts, before a new owner steps into the driving seat, ps, shop isn't failing, owner just wishes to retire :PSome people disagree but i have always had good service from him, buy the kit with the seal and clean the seal groove out meticulously
I too have had parts from "Honda Classics" without problems & delivered quickly - I think it's the restoration side of the business where they fall well short of any sort of perfection. It might be they were good at restoration in the past but Peter's (teenybop1) recent experience illustrates how far that side of the business has slipped.
Like my Dad used to say a workshops reputation is only as good as its worst mechanic.
That is probably why good bike restorers tend to be one man bands who guard their repuaution that takes years for them to build & why they often become expensive.
If anyone has ever had them do any restoration work within the past 3years or so, it would be interesting to hear about their experiences. They do claim to be a restoration specialist after all. A full report on the condition of my bike on return, was provided by the skilled engineer who sorted it out properly, and is available to view. I believe honda classics no longer accept restoration work, due to the impending sale. I wish any new owner the best of luck.
Post by: Oddjob on January 23, 2024, 09:44:10 AM
The other main difference is that the modern bike can do far better braking distances when the speed rises, a comparison between the distances at 90mph for example would most likely show the distances are very far apart in results. The modern bike can also do it more repeatedly, it's far better at shedding heat and has generally a greater tyre grip patch due to the much wider tyres.
On a comparison note, when my first 1300 was written off I was just setting off from standstill when someone pulled across me, I didn't spot them immediately as I was looking at the traffic coming from the left in case they jumped the lights, when I did spot the car I immediately did a full emergency stop, the front brake went straight into it's ABS mode with it chattering as it tried to stop the tyre loosing grip, I was able to steer away from the car to some degree and IF the car driver had seen me it's possible the collision would have been avoided or lessened at least but of course she didn't see me. Now if that had been on say my 500-4 the first thing that would have happened is the front tyre would have locked up, the road was wet and it's possible the brake would have not worked for a sec or 2 as well whilst it shed water, I'd have had little control if any and would almost certainly have hit the car much harder as a result and further back, somewhere around the firewall I'd imagine, whereas by being able to steer under ABS I actually got around the front of the car and she plowed me under with her bumper. Saying that it's also possible the the differences in acceleration between the 500 and the 1300 might have meant she could have cleared the junction before I even got there ;D ;D
It's a shame we can't have the option of retro fitting ABS to the SOHC bikes, it would be interesting to see how the brakes compare in real life tests. Although I am aware that might upset some people, I know of riders who really hate ABS for some reason.
Post by: Mikep328 on January 23, 2024, 12:45:58 PM
Back when ABS was being introduced on bikes many riders said they could outbrake ABS and on a dry track with a fixed brake point, good riders can (and did) do that. But in the real world on real roads with REAL random and sudden "panic" moments, there's no way!" ABS is a great thing! I wish there was an unobtrusive ABS system that could be fitted to vintage bikes. I'd install one on my 400 (and my Norton Commando) in a heartbeat.
Post by: TrickyMicky on January 23, 2024, 03:26:10 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 23, 2024, 05:40:34 PM
I’ll get me coat!🫣🫣
Post by: Mikep328 on January 23, 2024, 08:43:25 PM
Y'know, if you want/need gut wrenching brakes with ABS, allied to super grippy fat tyres, then why on earth do you want a vintage bike?
Good question! :)
While I have no need for brakes/tires that can perform stoppies, brakes that won't lock up in the wet is a nice thing to have in an emergency. I use my two vintage bikes as daily riders and, IMO, ABS would be a worthwhile "safety feature" in modern traffic. I'd be fooling myself if I claimed that despite many years of riding (and racing in my younger days), I could modulate the brakes/stop as effectively as ABS can. Of course, what I'd like and what exists are two different things so my vintage bikes will remain ABS-less! :)
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 23, 2024, 10:50:48 PM
Actually if you can lock the front with a single disc, (which I know you can), it begs the question the benefit of fitting a double disc setup, or am I missing the point?
I’ll get me coat!🫣🫣
Cos twin discs look ‘the shizzle’ and balance the front end a bit in terms of looks IMO. Plus it’s more bling to dazzle the chicks outside the all girls school bus stop when you rumble by looking all macho
Each to their own. I disconnected the abs on the VFR for a while a few years back and the brakes were no where near as good but like I say, each to their own and soon rigged it all back up again and to be fair, EBC discs, carbon Lorraine sintered pads, braided lines and better levers, they bloody should be
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Post by: Rozabikes Tim on January 24, 2024, 07:48:44 AM
Actually if you can lock the front with a single disc, (which I know you can), it begs the question the benefit of fitting a double disc setup, or am I missing the point?
I’ll get me coat!🫣🫣
Plus it’s more bling to dazzle the chicks outside the all girls school bus stop when you rumble by looking all macho
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do hope we are talking back in the day and not last week Roo. That would be wrong! 😱
Post by: K2-K6 on January 24, 2024, 07:53:45 AM
As Bryan has already contributed, the seal, its groove, how clean that is, are one of the most crucial aspect of getting this (and any caliper) to work correctly.
They should be assembled with silicone grease (it's directed even in the very first 750 Honda manual) to work well and protect it from corrosion.
The seal on a single piston caliper must retract the piston to give running clearance for BOTH pads (the static side on this is assisted in keeping the pad off the disc while running, but needs the seal to "give" initial clearance) and makes a big difference to how effective the brake is..you should be able to feel the free piston go out when lightly squeezing the lever, then definitely retract as you let the lever go. If it doesn't do this (that's about 0.4mm) a very visible retraction, then either the groove is not clean or the seal is not toleranced correctly.
It may be of use considering the genuine Honda seal IF you dont get that retraction correctly established.
Post by: Oddjob on January 24, 2024, 08:41:27 AM
Actually if you can lock the front with a single disc, (which I know you can), it begs the question the benefit of fitting a double disc setup, or am I missing the point?
I’ll get me coat!🫣🫣
Plus it’s more bling to dazzle the chicks outside the all girls school bus stop when you rumble by looking all macho
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do hope we are talking back in the day and not last week Roo. That would be wrong! 😱
And you would be wrong Tim, he meant last week. They don't call him Flash for nothing. The St Trinians character was based on Roo.
Post by: TrickyMicky on January 24, 2024, 08:58:26 AM
Actually if you can lock the front with a single disc, (which I know you can), it begs the question the benefit of fitting a double disc setup, or am I missing the point?
I’ll get me coat!🫣🫣
Cos twin discs look ‘the shizzle’ and balance the front end a bit in terms of looks IMO. Plus it’s more bling to dazzle the chicks outside the all girls school bus stop when you rumble by looking all macho
Each to their own. I disconnected the abs on the VFR for a while a few years back and the brakes were no where near as good but like I say, each to their own and soon rigged it all back up again and to be fair, EBC discs, carbon Lorraine sintered pads, braided lines and better levers, they bloody should be
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Post by: Eldrick on January 24, 2024, 09:18:48 AM
To the original question....the stainless piston option is a good one. Experience on here is that they are well made and work well.I noticed that the Haynes book suggests smearing the piston with Brake Fluid before inserting back into the caliper body. Is the silicone grease a better choice or is there a good reason to use it?
As Bryan has already contributed, the seal, its groove, how clean that is, are one of the most crucial aspect of getting this (and any caliper) to work correctly.
They should be assembled with silicone grease (it's directed even in the very first 750 Honda manual) to work well and protect it from corrosion.
Thanks
Post by: Bryanj on January 24, 2024, 09:39:42 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 24, 2024, 09:57:45 AM
To the original question....the stainless piston option is a good one. Experience on here is that they are well made and work well.I noticed that the Haynes book suggests smearing the piston with Brake Fluid before inserting back into the caliper body. Is the silicone grease a better choice or is there a good reason to use it?
As Bryan has already contributed, the seal, its groove, how clean that is, are one of the most crucial aspect of getting this (and any caliper) to work correctly.
They should be assembled with silicone grease (it's directed even in the very first 750 Honda manual) to work well and protect it from corrosion.
Thanks
They have absolutely no weather sealing on these caliper, the silicone grease excludes water from piston seal to effectively do this function.
Silicone grease is highly hydrophobic (near zero water attractive) with brake fluid the opposite in it's vulnerability to water ingress. Combine this with any available salt from road use gives effective electrolyte solution, causing the corrosion you've already got in the old piston.
Silicone grease is advised in the original Honda (first product disc brake really) and very effective.
It's your choice, but I use it on all caliper builds.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 24, 2024, 11:56:46 AM
Post by: Mikep328 on January 24, 2024, 12:33:24 PM
Post by: Matt_Harrington on January 24, 2024, 01:55:17 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 24, 2024, 02:25:19 PM
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Post by: Johnwebley on January 24, 2024, 02:33:30 PM
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Post by: Bryanj on January 24, 2024, 02:35:54 PM
I would use it above the seal and in the gap arround and behind piston but i would not use it on the seal, in the seal groove or in the bore as, personaly, i would not want the chance of any contaminent in the brake fluid cos i am not a good enough chemist to know what would happen
Post by: Eldrick on January 24, 2024, 02:41:50 PM
To clarify my earlier tired answersame here, thanks for the clarification
I would use it above the seal and in the gap arround and behind piston but i would not use it on the seal, in the seal groove or in the bore as, personaly, i would not want the chance of any contaminent in the brake fluid cos i am not a good enough chemist to know what would happen