Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: AshimotoK0 on October 05, 2017, 08:02:34 AM
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Hear a lot about how crap Haynes manuals for our bikes are on here. Just looking at the Haynes manual for the CX500, the section on the ignition system in it looks truly excellent to me (I gave my Genuine CX manual to RGP750 on here). Back in my late 20's I totally rebuilt a CB72, CB160, 4x CB250K's, 1x CB350K4 and I also totally rebuilt 2 400/4 engines (one with new crank shells chosen for main bearings as the crank came from a breakers) all using Haynes manuals plus the excellent two page features given in MCM in conjunction with the Honda UK Service School. I got the Honda Manual recently for the CB72/77 and quite frankly I would have struggled back in the day to rebuild the engine using that manual. Lots of pigeon English and not so brilliant pictures plus no practical tips on rebuilding on a student budget.
OK there may be some glaring errors in Haynes manuals but there are plenty of those in the Genuine manuals and I agree some cover multi models, which is slightly confusing. I would agree on Clymer manuals ...totally confusing..I have quite a few but If the missus chucked 'em in the bin I wouldn't be heartbroken but I wouldn't part with the Haynes ones.
If Haynes manuals are described as crap .. then why? I never rebuilt a CB750 engine back in the day using one for that model, 'cos I couldn't afford the bike .. I do have the Haynes Manual for it now and perhaps that one is the duffer? Anyone else on here got anything positive to say on Haynes manuals? I recently got the Haynes & Genuine CB250G5 manuals that came from Alan Mountain's Honda closed dealership in York... both were well used with oily marks prolific in both. They were a top Honda dealer (My UK 750K0 came from there...they must have been pretty special to get allocated two bikes from the prized 1st 20 batch bikes imported to the UK in Jan 1970), who won regular prize trips to Honda in Japan and would have almost certainly have been trained up by Honda on fixing bikes but they must have referred to the Haynes manual regularly judging by the state of it.
BTW in addition to all of the Genuine Manuals I put in my Dropbox on here, I also have the Haynes Manuals for most of them, so if anyone ever wants me to scan parts/all of them, then just ask ...there is no shame on my part.
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
How is anyone supposed to know? the answer is research! if you have not got the sense to do this you haven't got the sense to do the job, there are plenty of mistakes in factory, clymer, and haynes manuals, but i have found all relatively good, where they all fall down is torque settings especially when it comes to chrome plated bolts these need a lot less as the surface is super slippery and you can very easily strip what you are tightening into.
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I've always found Haynes for CB500 to be very useful. I never managed to find one for CB350 which annoyed me. The one I do have is published by Cycleserv, Sydney and is a bit dodgy.
The Haynes for the Land Rover Series 2/3 is great.
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I've always found Haynes for CB500 to be very useful. I never managed to find one for CB350 which annoyed me. The one I do have is published by Cycleserv, Sydney and is a bit dodgy.
The Haynes for the Land Rover Series 2/3 is great.
I have the CB250/350K Twins one .. It came from a closed down library I think
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
How is anyone supposed to know? the answer is research! if you have not got the sense to do this you haven't got the sense to do the job.
Gosh, If I were a sensitive person that may have upset me but, I'm not overly sensitive and I haven't the time to get upset ;D ;D ;D
My bug bear with any, or most manuals, instruction booklets, handbooks etc, including Haynes is the lack of rational for doing something in a particular way. It's OK a piece of paper saying 'do this' or 'do that' but with no explanation behind the instruction it's not conducive to a learning experience. I agree, research is hugely important before, during and after a new experience for the learning cycle to be complete and I do research, it would be against my nature and my professional background not to, especially as I have a MSc in Research Methodology, Teaching, Implementation and Outcomes. Now......where was I, oh yes, Page 22 :) :) :)
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Confucius
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
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When I was young and hotheaded, I stabbed a Haynes manual for telling me that the stuck rear wheel bearing ring on my Triumph was a 'left handed thread, except for some models where a right handed thread was used'.
Also I found out the hard way that if you assembled the 5 speed Triumph gearbox as per the photos in the manual, it wasn't timed right and gave you about a gear and a half.
I have a Haynes CB750 manual, but only as a second source in case something in the genuine Honda manual gets lost in translation. I think they were useful in their day, when only genuine dealers were allowed to buy the real thing.
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
How is anyone supposed to know? the answer is research! if you have not got the sense to do this you haven't got the sense to do the job.
Gosh, If I were a sensitive person that may have upset me but, I'm not overly sensitive and I haven't the time to get upset ;D ;D ;D
My bug bear with any, or most manuals, instruction booklets, handbooks etc, including Haynes is the lack of rational for doing something in a particular way. It's OK a piece of paper saying 'do this' or 'do that' but with no explanation behind the instruction it's not conducive to a learning experience. I agree, research is hugely important before, during and after a new experience for the learning cycle to be complete and I do research, it would be against my nature and my professional background not to, especially as I have a MSc in Research Methodology, Teaching, Implementation and Outcomes. Now......where was I, oh yes, Page 22 :) :) :)
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Confucius
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
No target in my post, just a direct answer to a possible scenario.
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Hmmm, they are handy, but my 550 one has black and white pictures that are appalling and unclear, like poor quality photocopies. I find my brooklands gold portfolio of the same model more useful. The chief but bears are, 1, the layout, particularly when the manual is dealing with several models and it keeps referring you back to another chapter or the torque settings being on another page at the beginning of the cheaper. I was using the Berlingo Haynes manual the other day, it's about the worst I have encountered, everything was a case of saying beyond a home mechanic so take the car to your Citroen dealer - sod that the car was £200 and a basic service might well cost more. In the end I googled the answers and it was not rocket science and I had more than sufficient tooling. Made the £18 I spent on the book a bit of a poor deal. It does rather vary according to the individual manual. The best manual I have encountered is the factory manual for my kh125. Details lots of things, right down to how to measure big end bearing wear and why measure it a particular way.
My biggest peeve. 'RE ASSEMBLY in reverse order of disassembly. So why hate this so much? It assumes you received it correctly assembled and in decent order. 99% of the time I'm pulling something apart because it no longer works so a failed circlip spews bits off the end of a shaft, springs, washers cogs and spacers, you consult your manual and it gives you a blurred and badly printed photo of nearby bits. I vastly prefer my land rover manuals that include exploded diagrams of the assemblies, in fact a lot of my manuals show this information but never Haynes. Some are better, other than the quality of the pictures and a few errors the cb550 manual was not too bad and I rebuilt a engine from a pile of ready stripped engines with it ad my first rebuild. I now have several manuals for the cb500 and 550 including Pittman, Climber, Haynes, Honda and Brooklands. Each has it's strengths. Having working internet has vastly inproved the ability to research any given job and overcome the weaknesses of Haynes. Oh, other bug bear haynes like to assume you are pulling the whole vehicle apart, the fault finding and repair is weak. Kick starter on the cb500 is easy enough to fix through the sump, the manual has you pulling the whole engine to bits for a curtain circlip retained cog, spacers and spring, which as it's fallen apart in hidden it is not going to be possible to reverse the dismantling procedure....
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RE ASSEMBLY in reverse order of disassembly
I'd forgotten that little pet hate, absolutely useless when you are building a bike from bits and didn't take it apart in the first place.
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I've never had a problem with Haynes manuals, been using them for years. They differ from real life in that a bolt that takes seconds to undo is sometimes so corroded it takes hours. Haynes technicians take things apart just the once, whereas we develop quicker techniques and bodges. Also, theres no cable and loom routing diagrams as per the Honda manuals. Sometimes the text is on a different page to the photos.
For that reason I use two: an oily one with a missing cover and a clean(ish) one.
Overall score from me is 8/10.
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;) well ash i had to rebuilt cb750 engines with a haynes manuel and at the time atleast better than nowt and a lot cheaper than the genuine honda manuel. like the saying goes RTFM ,ever since i was old enough to hold a torch i had to watch my old man fix his car in the dark nights and i would ask him whats that for then? and he would say shut up and hold the torch steady lol, i used to reading all his motorcycle mechanics mags and worked my way up to his bike manuels and car manuels,he would tell me if you dont understand the manuel read it again. and if you still dont understand it ? then read it again until you do lol he was always bringing home old bikes and scrap cars he would say he needed them for spares the garden was always littered with scrap cars and engines gearboxes back axles so from there came the knowledge to tackle anything plus we all have mates who could muck in and help.they was good old days them
i came first in motor mechanics every year at school for that simple reason and the teacher told me that was the job for me lol but i had other ideas . ended up driving heavy plant i still prefer driving and riding to fixing ;)
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
when it comes to chrome plated bolts these need a lot less as the surface is super slippery.
Since when has chrome on bolts been 'super slippery'. Get two plumbers compression fittings and try tightening them. Much harder on the chromed one. Chrome plating on bolts is abrasive.
My problem with Haynes manuals is that sometimes they carry out jobs in a different way to the factory. I realise that sometimes the factory works in a certain way due to production restraints, but surely the people who designed and built the thing know best. I mean, who is this guy in the Haynes manuals that only has hands. Is he factory trained or just any old mechanic they could get to do it? Ive had real trouble with Haynes manuals over the years, and its carrying on right now with a useless GS1000 manual. I am trying to find a genuine Suzuki manual for that bike just now.
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Plumbing fittings are usually chrome on chrome which has a different characteristic to dissimilar materials. Also compared to something like brass or copper as a datum, then I can see your reasoning roy. It's different for each material and chrome, stainless, cad plate etc do change the torque rating of threads when used. As do lubricants and if the threads have been cut with a die or rolled, which is effectively forged, without which spoke ends wouldn't survive.
There's a whole hidden subject out there of how torque ratings work and how fixings use elasticity to make secure assemblies.
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Plumbing fittings are usually chrome on chrome which has a different characteristic to dissimilar materials. Also compared to something like brass or copper as a datum, then I can see your reasoning roy. It's different for each material and chrome, stainless, cad plate etc do change the torque rating of threads when used. As do lubricants and if the threads have been cut with a die or rolled, which is effectively forged, without which spoke ends wouldn't survive.
There's a whole hidden subject out there of how torque ratings work and how fixings use elasticity to make secure assemblies.
Very true, and very well put. Perhaps the plumbing fitting thing was a poor example.
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I have found glaring mistakes in the Haynes manuals (specially brit models), but as you say also in genuine ones. Haynes are a good low price manual for the person who does his own regular maintenance but need to be read alongside a "real" manual for a full rebuild
Yes Bryan, plenty of mistakes as well. But, how is a novice meant to know what a 'mistake' is if they have not had the practical experience previously to learn what is a mistake?
when it comes to chrome plated bolts these need a lot less as the surface is super slippery.
Since when has chrome on bolts been 'super slippery'. Get two plumbers compression fittings and try tightening them. Much harder on the chromed one. Chrome plating on bolts is abrasive.
My problem with Haynes manuals is that sometimes they carry out jobs in a different way to the factory. I realise that sometimes the factory works in a certain way due to production restraints, but surely the people who designed and built the thing know best. I mean, who is this guy in the Haynes manuals that only has hands. Is he factory trained or just any old mechanic they could get to do it? Ive had real trouble with Haynes manuals over the years, and its carrying on right now with a useless GS1000 manual. I am trying to find a genuine Suzuki manual for that bike just now.
When it comes to metals, i have probably forgotten more than most know, former metalurgical chemist in plating industry.
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I refer the gentleman to my previous comment.
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Hmmmm....
Interesting discussion about Haynes manuals. As a poor college student I couldn't afford to pay someone else to maintain my little CB125s back in 1975 so that I had reliable transportation to & from Navy College. My saying of 'If someone else can do it, then so can I' still rings true.
I bought my first Haynes manual not long after buying the little 125 & pretty soon I was replacing front wheel spokes & had the carb apart to check float heights, not because of the Haynes book, but because I found it easy to do. The Haynes has always been a source of reference for things like the torque wrench settings or how to work out which crank bearing shells to buy.
I used the Haynes CB750 manual for my CB750F2, not for the information that was missing for the F2, but because of the wiring diagram in the back. Having the engine apart became second nature after the first time.
I have since rebuilt several engines & complete bikes with Haynes manuals to hand but rarely used them. I tend to keep service interval records in them as I know that I can find them in a drawer in my tool rack easily.
As for the lies that are printed in them....when I have referenced the Haynes Yamaha R1 manual against a genuine Yamaha one, the figures have been lifted straight from one to the other. Only a few figures in the torque wrench settings caused me to question the figures, like the recommendation to do the rear wheel nut up 150Nm, a figure completely out of all proportion to what is adequate. But it was in the genuine manual, so what else is Haynes supposed to use?