Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 10, 2023, 07:38:36 PM

Title: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 10, 2023, 07:38:36 PM: Reading the problems that Rich & Julie have had with 500 looms is making me re-think my wiring when I get to that stage.
I will be inspecting my existing loom that did work everything last year when I re-do some of the taping/insulation.

Fitting a new loom is clearly not always a long term fix - one fuse sounds less than ideal - Roo's Motogadget box of tricks looks too complicated for me so am thinking is there another way forward?

Is it possible to use a later Honda Loom from another model that with the appropriate fuse box will work or could fuses be added to the existing loom in a tidy way?
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 10, 2023, 08:21:28 PM: Don’t be put off Ted, they’re a doddle to fit. I really mean that, super easy. It’s just the features it has that are multiple but once you identify what you want it’s simple to pre program it in seconds and it’s done for life. Sorted.

You can make your loom how you want, it’s small and unobtrusive and is configurable with all the Honda switches too so you could even use your existing loom if you thought it was good and wire it through it and simple use it as a distribution board, alarm, immobiliser etc and of course a fused item. If you want to have a good look I can send you all the links over that I used and it pretty much clicked straight away and I’m no electrician by any means.

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Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 10, 2023, 08:52:43 PM: Might be worth giving it some thought Roo.
I don't even know if the Motogadget has replaceable fuses as such.
My worry is that if it's a solid state unit all sealed up they must be capable of failing or developing intermittent faults.
I've suffered RCB failures on a previous house consumer units.
If I am honest I like the idea of retaining sections of the loom and perhaps using some aspects of the unit.

I also have a habit of forgetting how I have wired something up six months later.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Oddjob on May 10, 2023, 09:21:34 PM: Just fit a loom off a Cb550F Ted, straight forward swap, you'll need a fuse box of course but the rest is pretty much plug and play except the ignition lock, you'd need to make up a small sub loom to take the wires down from the headlight area to down to the coils, the handlebar switches are better off being changed as well or you can just extend the existing wires. Or just use the top yoke off the 550F as well.

I did it many years ago and I've never regreted it.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 10, 2023, 09:32:45 PM: There you go then

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Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 10, 2023, 10:17:20 PM: That sounds an interesting option Ken. I already have some new switches with overlong wires so that's a start. I need to make sure I get the right loom & fuse box. A short loom to the ignition switch is no problems.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Oddjob on May 10, 2023, 11:02:06 PM: Might be able to help you out with a fusebox Ted. Replaced mine with a blade fuse one from Hondaman. Old one is still in perfect nick.

I also have a genuine F2 loom, I bought a nos one but wasn’t sure if I was using it or not, old loom is still good so I was thinking of using that and keeping the Nos one for spare.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 10, 2023, 11:27:59 PM: I've sent a PM.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 11, 2023, 07:24:17 AM: Ted, I've had a shufty at Roo's Motogadget and i was very impressed. It's the diagnostics (micro LEDs) that is really good - ideal for tracing faults etc. My next bike will have one!

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Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 08:31:53 AM: Looking at the price of a new 550F loom narrows the cost difference somewhat when looking at the Motoblathingy.

Perhaps I should not let Rich's dead short nightmare colour my thinking and stay with the original loom.
Ken's solution sounds easier - no rush either way.

Bikes eh so many ways to fill the money pit even more - should have found an old mineshaft to fill with dosh as a contingency option. 😁😁😁
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 11, 2023, 08:33:42 AM: Ted, it's so easy to spend money these days!!

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Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 09:28:42 AM: True but there ain't no pockets in Shrouds as my Dad used to say.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: deltarider on May 11, 2023, 09:37:43 AM: Quote from: Oddjob on May 10, 2023, 09:21:34 PM
Just fit a loom off a Cb550F Ted [...]
I would not. The better alternative ofcourse is the loom the CB500K2 (ED, F, G) had: https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500k2-general-export_model50441/harness-wire_32100374700/
BTW, it's the same the CB550K2 (A) had. You can have 3 fuses, knowing: 15A main, 7A head, 5A tail.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Laverdaroo on May 11, 2023, 09:39:44 AM: Ive a spare shaft you can borrow Ted? ;) ;D
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 11:50:03 AM: Quote from: Laverdaroo on May 11, 2023, 09:39:44 AM
Ive a spare shaft you can borrow Ted? ;) ;D

With the right winding gear Roo?
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 12:17:06 PM: Quote from: deltarider on May 11, 2023, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: Oddjob on May 10, 2023, 09:21:34 PM
Just fit a loom off a Cb550F Ted [...]
I would not. The better alternative of course is the loom the CB500K2 (ED, F, G) had: https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500k2-general-export_model50441/harness-wire_32100374700/
BTW, it's the same the CB550K2 (A) had. You can have 3 fuses, knowing: 15A main, 7A head, 5A tail.

What is the advantage of using this loom over the one Ken mentions?
Part number appears to be 32100-374-700 not currently available at csml - DS show as discontinued.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Oddjob on May 11, 2023, 12:50:41 PM: Advantage Ted would be the ignition would be in the right place with the K2 loom.

Must admit Ted to not thinking this through enough, I used a scrap 550F2 that I bought as a write off, funnily enough the lad I bought it off only moved in 2 doors away from me last year, haven't seen him since 1980, I was polishing some parts on the front when he passed and the part I was polishing was off his old bike, strange world.

Anyway, I had to use the electrical panel off the 550 as well due to it having the facility to hang the fusebox off, something I didn't think about until you mentioned where to put it.

I hindsight it might be better to go with the Motogadget, they don't float my boat but they seem to work.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 04:50:44 PM: So how does the Motogadget connect into the existing loom or do you bin that then individually connect each device into the box of tricks or is it a Canbus system?

Is there a good video that shows the way?
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Matt_Harrington on May 12, 2023, 09:09:47 AM: Ted, I'm not saying this is a great video but may help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSNS91EmxU&ab_channel=CafeRacerGarage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSNS91EmxU&ab_channel=CafeRacerGarage)
CanBus is a little more complex than the Motogadget and seems to be simplified but certainly ideal for bike re-wiring. I would not install it if I didn't need to rewire, however. I do like the idea of an imobiliser and alarm built in. I also like hazards on a bike - I'm sure Roo will chip in!! ;D
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: K2-K6 on May 12, 2023, 10:50:07 AM: Quote from: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 11, 2023, 04:50:44 PM
So how does the Motogadget connect into the existing loom or do you bin that then individually connect each device into the box of tricks or is it a Canbus system?

Is there a good video that shows the way?

Motogadget is just remote switching on solid state control board as I understand it, so command switch to tell the board to turn the required circuit on, power then runs to device from there, without going through switch. A relay system in essence, just integrated to one unit.

Canbus, principle is the device has a constant supply from live loom (for example a brake light) with a control method sighted at that device to toggle it on/off. The signal to do that comes from ecu command sent "consentric" down that wire as a digital code to "call" that responding unit in situ. The ecu can then control all the devices by having their unique address.
Effectively can be one ring loop of positive to all components (deletes all individual strands) to remove much wiring etc. Can also monitor status, resistance etc to observe any out of range component.

Household computer comms with Ethernet over mains effectively does the same in sending digital data through live 240 volt distribution concurrent to other usage.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 12, 2023, 12:45:35 PM: After viewing the video plus looking at the cost I'm not going down the Motogadget road so it will be either check my existing loom thoroughly or if I replace it go for Deltariders option of fitting the
500 K2 version if I can find a new one.

As I am some time away from fitting a loom I will await the outcome of the thread on a members Dead Short cause.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 12, 2023, 01:25:07 PM: We have 7 bikes on the road all with a single fuse and never had a problem with the fuse. I have seen loads of fuse boxes off 550 F1, F2, K3's melted but never a single fuse melted. Even Millie has a 500 loom on a K3 frame and F2 engine and i have had her on the road for 5 years / 6,450 miles with no problem. The only problem i have had is with DSS looms and now buy from electrexwold which have the correct colour coded wires.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Oddjob on May 12, 2023, 03:27:08 PM: Sorry Julie but your looking through rose tinted glasses there, the amount of fuses I've seen burnt out on 500s is immense, most had been replaced by those fuse holders where you twist the top a little to release the fuse, a longer fuse than standard I may add. Also a lot of them showed melting on the fuse holders, some had even melted the fuse holder itself. Plus this was when the bikes were still fairly new, not 40 years later with all the corrosion and wire hardening that has happened in that time. Conversely I've not seen a 3 fuse system in the same state, I've seen the back of the fuse box in poor state, I've seen fuse holders in poor state but I've never seen one melted, loads of corrosion, loads of blue gunge everywhere.

Due to me being the 500/550 enthusiast at Queenies I tended to get every single one that came through our doors, subsequently I've seen hundreds of examples and I can't think of a single 500 that didn't show some sign of melting. Even if that was just the red wire starting to buckle as they did when they were starting to go. If I'd kept some of my sub looms from over the years I could show pics of them.

There are 3 examples of the electrical panel for the CB500 on Ebay right now, not a single one of them has the complete fuse setup, all are missing the plastic fuse holder, all show signs of the wires going to the fuse holders starting to melt or have even been replaced. I'd imagine even breakers don't list parts that clearly show it's almost started a fire.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255571789499?hash=item3b814406bb:g:YRQAAOSw~~RfziuJ&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwMUQF1m2JWVO8N7Y4pferHxSI0XNzcTn8lfE0WagcS90ulE%2BRQuG9Kk%2FVfhucLx16Ez%2FXyJaPZmuhsL6K%2FXEzkFdr6PvyLysEmVrYw4T4oWYoG0xxbOe%2FclZbYx%2FZr9cqbSNTMQ6tRYDVJ5FOR7mNJFCzVE1h1T1bcrIcSimz0c1b15UYfrzzbhI%2Fw%2FBIcQvFyfzcfxdfbwrO40r48l5DmYoRBm%2F%2BmYleslnZcja7L41CcdK8VRUc9Z1tZvx5kgkFQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9Tp-oSCYg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353647379550?hash=item525706c45e:g:ZTwAAOSwSBVhKler&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwBtCX62Wr%2F%2BiPA54vMN2jyiWaGwTgbNrcikkl%2B2Ftm%2FqN5ntTQBhfSvXOHwWn6mJwhIOeU%2BIo3gxsoGP7DFefCgDw3ClBtmnEvJmiOiZW6LdYd%2B5z140LNcnucQlmTA861WmklGTNKE6dbOTzaDrZq80hVm15O0D9sEuraBr0xo5PwrwEOreb2dxh%2FqqDRJSnBkEd51IWJwDgNRRGPpICOxqX2dh36NYOKt1BNdWJxF80Qj2HDzwStkx79bttOmm0Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9jp-oSCYg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314157677804?hash=item492541bcec:g:BnYAAOSwzsVjLIVB&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwIFWyGcVGm2hhNT%2Fdv5G45pxsHps59xh3t7RcOPMFcJ8G0YCyB%2BPUHBrlPU37j1JthSAKN05vundIAEq294hYtK6uIYJ2drDlUrqTg6kQejfejqnaBx8jwvbetWjCUnmCr1XA9jytYaivWvu0k%2BSI6%2B%2BGQTQJqM2Hn0UOKb1IBVdl%2BFKK%2BetnC0CnsrZFPdxqhpGf%2FK%2FG9ps%2FXpVT8Ii4Iwzb8g0lnk8u4%2BHiM%2BdkItawaBbxVeZjqhMc2eXLxavdg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9zp-oSCYg

Perhaps Ted will post a pic of his fuse board and show what that looks like. I'm betting it will show signs of either melting or wire buckling that precedes the melting.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 12, 2023, 03:42:50 PM: I don't wear rose tinted glasses Ken, I wear clear varifocals 😂😂😂😂
All I know is that our bikes have the original plastic type single fuse holders and the original glass (shorter) fuses and we haven't had any problems with them at all. I would have thought that with riding our bikes very regularly and the mileage we do on them, we have a higher chance of something burning out, or getting hot and melting but that hasn't been the case. Maybe because we do ride all our bikes so often, they aren't sitting around long enough doing nowt for wiring / fuse box problems to occur 🤔🤔🤔
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Oddjob on May 12, 2023, 04:08:31 PM: Not exactly Julie. First off your mileages will be far less than anyone in the 70s for example. You have a few bikes to choose from for example, not just the one you'd most likely have back then. More bikes means less mileage on each. Plus back then we rode in all sorts of weather, we had to, it was our means of transport to and from work in most cases. We didn't pamper them, they were essentially work horses, bought for having fun on yes but mainly as a means of getting from A to B. Secondly, you look after your bikes, they've all been restored, that means they've all had excessive amounts of attention to parts that normally don't get any attention, so any faults that were developing have been fixed, most of these fuses burn out because of dirty connections which increase the resistance, when that reaches a critical point the wire starts to buckle or distort, it's a clear sign things are going to start melting soon, on a restoration all those parts would be spotted and changed, contacts are cleaned, spade connectors are removed, cleaned and fitted with dielectric grease to stop any further corrosion forming. I have 2 500s, both have obscene amounts of mileage on them, close to half a million miles between them, one was even raced for a few seasons, both no longer have single fuses, they were too prone to blowing, had IMO far too much power coming down a single wire, Honda recognised that and changed to a better multi fuse system, not for just the 500 but for all of them. It's a poor system, badly designed and poorly constructed but was built that way due to costs and the fact they were breaking new ground, when they recognised those faults they changed the design, we should learn from that.

I do remember Graham telling me that he'd bought quite a few of the fuse holders at one time so he had spares for when they needed replacing, clearly there was a demand for them. Which begs the question, why? they are essentially indestructible, just a plastic parts that hardly ever gets touched, why would you ever need to buy in loads of them?

The prosecution rests milord ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Nurse Julie on May 12, 2023, 04:48:10 PM: Be cause I sell them on my ebay page Ken and buy them in bulk for that reason. Yes, I agree, none of us use our old bikes all year round and in all weathers which does help enormously in preventing problems.
Title: Re: The 500 lack of multiple fuses is there a cure ?
Post by: Bryanj on May 12, 2023, 04:50:31 PM: Teds has a blade type fuse holder cos i didnt have the plastic one