Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on July 10, 2023, 01:47:11 PM
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At some point I need to shine up the left side alternator cover/housing - clearly makes sense to remove the alternator stator for the polishing job - only one screw has come out so far.
Presently soaking stuff with penetrating oil - might need to get my young friend Marco to see if he can shift them - he talks about cutting a cross with his Dremel tool the using a screw driver that you can put a spanner on.
The three inner JIS heads have had some straight impact with a big Honda T Bar - that shifted one - drilling out does not look like an option as the screw shaft is not accessible. Outer three might be okay to drill the heads out as a last resort.
Is there a way that works in my limited tool workshop?
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53036295745_7b4d4e35a0_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oNCSYa)alternator housing (https://flic.kr/p/2oNCSYa) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Ted,Why,
Your shining the exterior surface,
Do it with care,maybe mask the internal parts
If it works, don't disturb
It seems like you could be heading for needless trouble
That is my humble opinion
Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk
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What about trying a mini hammer impact driver? (small version of the original type) like this: https://www.louis-moto.co.uk/en/mini-impact-driver-set-7-piece-chromed-10002580?partner=googlesea-uk&cpkey=jqz0L3SMyo-B8GYqQ8TL7fx8sYHObdEBxBpU2KX4nJHuziyMJdQLYNIAT7aU63MyWsaRKGiZkPovzza5G4iTuA%7E%7E&gclid=CjwKCAjw2K6lBhBXEiwA5RjtCXgLNumA4X71e0KiwNZeNHQ7sk-TTRB5xvIedCji1xtnZWZu7dyIrhoC3x4QAvD_BwE&filter_article_number=10002580 (https://www.louis-moto.co.uk/en/mini-impact-driver-set-7-piece-chromed-10002580?partner=googlesea-uk&cpkey=jqz0L3SMyo-B8GYqQ8TL7fx8sYHObdEBxBpU2KX4nJHuziyMJdQLYNIAT7aU63MyWsaRKGiZkPovzza5G4iTuA%7E%7E&gclid=CjwKCAjw2K6lBhBXEiwA5RjtCXgLNumA4X71e0KiwNZeNHQ7sk-TTRB5xvIedCji1xtnZWZu7dyIrhoC3x4QAvD_BwE&filter_article_number=10002580)
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That is a good shout idea John, I could tape up the wiring and fit a thick cardboard backing using the case bolt holes - I could cope with the weight whilst using the buffing wheel.
When I worked on my 400 all but one bolt came out easily so have been headed down the same route - the last one I used a small chisel tool & fitted new screws.
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What about trying a mini hammer impact driver? (small version of the original type) like this: https://www.louis-moto.co.uk/en/mini-impact-driver-set-7-piece-chromed-10002580?partner=googlesea-uk&cpkey=jqz0L3SMyo-B8GYqQ8TL7fx8sYHObdEBxBpU2KX4nJHuziyMJdQLYNIAT7aU63MyWsaRKGiZkPovzza5G4iTuA%7E%7E&gclid=CjwKCAjw2K6lBhBXEiwA5RjtCXgLNumA4X71e0KiwNZeNHQ7sk-TTRB5xvIedCji1xtnZWZu7dyIrhoC3x4QAvD_BwE&filter_article_number=10002580 (https://www.louis-moto.co.uk/en/mini-impact-driver-set-7-piece-chromed-10002580?partner=googlesea-uk&cpkey=jqz0L3SMyo-B8GYqQ8TL7fx8sYHObdEBxBpU2KX4nJHuziyMJdQLYNIAT7aU63MyWsaRKGiZkPovzza5G4iTuA%7E%7E&gclid=CjwKCAjw2K6lBhBXEiwA5RjtCXgLNumA4X71e0KiwNZeNHQ7sk-TTRB5xvIedCji1xtnZWZu7dyIrhoC3x4QAvD_BwE&filter_article_number=10002580)
I'm going to own up Matt - I have a similar tool that I bought decades ago but for the life of me I can't remember how to use it - my grip is now weak so holding the body to stop it rotating is challenging - especially when not wanting to strike my hand with the lump hammer - the way to change it's direction by pressing the end of the tool and rotating the tool outer body works but the L<-->R positions have no reference point so I am never sure if I am impact tightening or loosening!
Might be worth me looking for/at U-tube tutorial on the Draper B2500 I have the right size JIS tip PH3.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53036351330_53ba0c6d57_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oNDauw)Draper Impact Tool (https://flic.kr/p/2oNDauw) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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PH3 is Phillip's, not JIS ;)
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I have that tool...it's very unclear which way is which, but if you use it on a fastener that isn't tight, and just give it a little tap, then you can see which way it turns it for the L or R setting.
Nb - do you need to remove the windings to polish the case? If it ain't broke etc...
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All my JIS tools are also marked with a PH number as well - all academic now as I have undone the lot.
Following Matt's idea I read some online instructions - put my Big Boy work gloves on - found my second biggest lump hammer then gave the outer screws some serious percussion - all came loose in under two minutes.
As I was undoing the inside screws my tool fell apart - I found the balls & cups put it back together re-fitting the circlip - last two came undone but not before the tool came apart again. Needs a new circlip I guess.
I'm now knackered - enough for today - time for a beer!
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I have that tool...it's very unclear which way is which, but if you use it on a fastener that isn't tight, and just give it a little tap, then you can see which way it turns it for the L or R setting.
Nb - do you need to remove the windings to polish the case? If it ain't broke etc...
I have a certain penchant for stripping down completely - it's one of my many faults - often leading to more earth in the money pit.
. ;D ;D ;D
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All my JIS tools are also marked with a PH number as well - all academic now as I have undone the lot.
Following Matt's idea I read some online instructions - put my Big Boy work gloves on - found my second biggest lump hammer then gave the outer screws some serious percussion - all came loose in under two minutes.
As I was undoing the inside screws my tool fell apart - I found the balls & cups put it back together re-fitting the circlip - last two came undone but not before the tool came apart again. Needs a new circlip I guess.
I'm now knackered - enough for today - time for a beer!
That is because you have been sold something as JIS when it is just Phillips . PH stands for Phillips. All JIS are P1, P2, P3 ;)
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Always better to tackle the problem now Ted rather than wait until it really becomes a problem. It would also be easy to damage the windings accidentally if you'd left it in to polish, the weight would have made polishing it harder IMO. When inserting the drive bit twist the tool to preload the bit so when you hit it the drive will move immediately.
You can buy JIS bits to fit that impact driver.
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Ah ha! Ted, for some reason, I thought the bigger of the impact tools may not have fitted hence the idea of using a smaller 'mini' one. I've had to use mine in quite a few places on the old 400/4 engine. A cheap tool with good effects! Glad it's all worked out...
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Always better to tackle the problem now Ted rather than wait until it really becomes a problem. It would also be easy to damage the windings accidentally if you'd left it in to polish, the weight would have made polishing it harder IMO. When inserting the drive bit twist the tool to preload the bit so when you hit it the drive will move immediately.
You can buy JIS bits to fit that impact driver.
I have a JIS bit but it also says PH3 after the JIS markings - Grahame thinks it's not pucka JIS size- matters not as they are all out.
I have dismantled the Impact Driver - filled the slots with grease - all back together with a nice new SS circlip - it was when I twisted to preload that it seemed to fall apart on me - the external circlip seems to fit better than the original snap ring type if that is the right word.
I did wonder if - could fit a normal SS bolt & washer for the inner three JIS screws?
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PH3 is Phillip's, not JIS ;)
This is how many seem to be listed:-
4PCS JIS ( JAPANESE INDUSTRY STANDARD ) MAGNETIC SCREWDRIVER SET
SPECIFICATIONS :
SIZES : PH1 - PH2 - PH2 - PH3
..
https://bike.bikegremlin.com/10583/phillips-vs-jis-vs-pozidriv/
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The above link says it all - a long detailed - often confusing article I was drawn to Para 4 reproduced below.
Quote
4. How can I find a good Phillips/JIS screwdriver?
After a brief Pozidriv/Supadriv digression, how does one find a good screwdriver for Phillips and/or JIS screws? In Chapter 3.2. I explained how JIS was discontinued as a standard in 2008, so now there is only ISO 8764. In other words: almost no manufacturers today make and sell screwdrivers noted as “JIS”, only “Phillips, ISO 8764-1, 2”. Some might (also) mention “DIN 5260-PH”, but no “JIS”.
Then how can you tell if a Phillips is one that works well with JIS screws and doesn’t easily slip out of Phillips screws?
It still boils down to trial and error. I intend to run this article with local tool companies and suppliers to see if they have a more universal solution. Until then, I can only recommend what I have personally tested and a few other ones recommended by many mechanics (but I haven’t tested personally):
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Don't believe everything you read. Vessel still make JIS screwdrivers ;)
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I have the Draper impact above and a Vessel one and use them on JIS and seem fine. Got out many stubborn screws.
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If all else fails hammer a multi spline bit in and gently try to undo
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I don't Grahame that's why I'm not sure what you are saying is bang up to date can you corroborate your statement?
I'm not sure if you know about the changes in JIS as per the article - unless your tools were made in 2008 it appears that JIS has morphed.
I will use my genuine Honda T bar purchased in around 1966 to put the new JIS screws back in - but are the new JIS screws ISO 8764 compliant rather than the pre 2008 version of JIS?
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So today I have started polishing the Alternator Housing - my right thumb aches like Billy-O today from yesterdays Impact Driver work out - indirect concussion bruising.
I did 30 mins last night with the little plastic wheels/buffing mops in my drill to get the worst of the oxidation off. Today 30 mins with my coarsest soap followed by 30 mins of medium & 15 minutes of fine soap. Quite pleased with the result - just needs a couple more hours to reach my admittedly low standard. I have some age related marks that I will leave as a sort of Patina effect.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53038925998_6614145695_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oNSmRm)Alternator housing (https://flic.kr/p/2oNSmRm) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Coming on Ted, personally I'd remove those dents, they do nothing for the cover except make it worse looking. Should be easy to do with the abrasive wheels.
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With my luck Ken I'd probably make a hole in casing - either way with my size 11 boots I will probably scuff it some more on my first ride out. 8) 8) 8)
Just looked at the price of the Cover Badge as mine is scuffed all over - £90 excluding clips @ £3.82 each - another reason for not going OTT on the housing.
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Scuffed can be repaired Ted.
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I'll post a photo but scuffed is a slight understatement - I mean scraped/damaged & pitted.
Flickr is down I'll try later.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53040669085_f1c63d9f3b_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oP2i1z)PXL_20230711_232025324 (https://flic.kr/p/2oP2i1z) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Just thought this might help clarify what Trigger was saying.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi1ua_38YiAAxUxUqQEHW9WAtEQFnoECDMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vesseltools.com%2Fhandtools%2Fscrewdrivers%2Fjis-japanese-industrial-standard&usg=AOvVaw3fqYoxAqbJVcqcs2MKdvzU&opi=89978449
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Yes & No - I agree that our 1970's bikes have JIS screws what I can't make out is why aside from Vessel pretty much most tools marked JIS that I have looked at also have JIS PH3 or JIS PH2 etc markings on them - possibly due to the changes when ISO-8764 came in making them suitable for both applications? Clearly the article in the link shows that not all new later so named JIS tools are suitable.
I assume Vessel is making tools to the original JIS profile that ended in 2008 - hence the relatively high price. I went on to ask myself have Honda made changes to new JIS bolts to reflect ISO-8764.
In the photo below is my tool marked as JIS PH3 - it looks the same by the naked eye to my Honda Special tool I bought back in 1966 era - now well worn.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53040562349_1264f9d7fa_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oP1Khi)PXL_20230712_100614263 (https://flic.kr/p/2oP1Khi) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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The diagrams of the two screwdrivers say it all. Do you want a good fir or a perfect fit? You can make many screwdrivers a workable option. It depends if you want to use the correct tool for the job or one that will do the job.
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Actually Ted I think it's more to do with PH3 not being good for JIS screws BUT a JIS is perfectly fine in a Phillips screw. Around the house now I find myself using the JIS screwdrivers in preference to a PH screwdriver, they just don't slip as often. I think the marking reflect this, ok for both.
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Where can you find sensibly priced screwdrivers that are only JIS not JIS PH marked?
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Found this description in a JIS advert.
Made out of heavy duty steel. These will be the only set of JIS drivers and bits you will ever need. JIS screws are used by most Japanese manufacturers of motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV, UTV, 3-Wheelers, PWC'S.
With old, rusty screws that are hard to remove the middle ground will not cut it.
Included in this 7-piece set:
(1) JIS #1 Screwdriver with 75mm shaft - Great for little screws on handlebar switches, electronics, etc.
(1) JIS #2 Screwdriver with 100mm shaft - The most versatile size. Great for all carb screws, etc.
(1) JIS #3 Screwdriver with 150mm shaft - Fits all those large screws found on the engine cases and bodywork.
(1) #2 JIS 1/4" Impact Driver Bit Short 25mm
(1) #2 JIS 1/4" Impact Driver Bit Long 75mm
(1) #3 JIS 1/4" Impact Driver Bit Short 25mm
(1) #3 JIS 1/4" Impact Driver Bit Long 75mm
Most "JIS" advertised screwdrivers sold today are made to a new standard: DIN 5260 which is middleground between Phillips and JIS.
If using the right tool for the job is important to you or if you frequently work with Japanese or JIS screws consider investing in proper JIS screw driver bits that are built to to the correct Japanese Industrial Standards (B 4633).
There are the real JIS and the not-so-real JIS screwdrivers. Remember JIS is a standard so a screwdriver needs to be made to that
exact standard to be considered authentically JIS.
Most JIS advertised screwdrivers sold today are actually conforming to a new standard DIN 5260 which is identical (at the tip) to the newer ISO 8764-1.
Phillips screws by design were created to cam-out.
JIS drivers are re-engineered standards that aim to reduce or eliminate cam-out.
Even though the JIS & Phillips looks very similar they are two different designs and the drivers are not meant to be interchangeable. Using one in the other will lead to frustration and stripped out screws.
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I don't know were you get "JIS profile that ended in 2008". I still buy JIS screws from Honda and other suppliers up to a delivery this morning from Japan. ;)
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Essentially from reading up on ISO 8764 it appears the old dot markings on JIS screw heads has also been withdrawn as a requirement. It is also covered in an excellent article on Wiki that the Japanese have revised their industrial standards to move closer to Europe & USA specs. This appears to explain why many tools are marked as JIS PH3 for example.
As well as my previously quoted source this one is an interesting read.
.https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2022/10/01/japanese-screws-and-fasteners/#the-elusive-jis-screwdriver
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Here is a so called JIS set but the items are marked as JIS PH2 etc for Japanese Motorcycles etc as they have a different profile to standard PH2 tips - these are what I have but a different brand am I wrong in thinking they are JIS compliant?
Any links to original spec JIS screwdrivers welcome mine were cheap & are showing typical wear due to lack of hardening.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184042375191?hash=item2ad9c7c817:g:7EEAAOSwNlld0-E0&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwFDOaTf2rGXDY24ubtjQS7Z5U0RArznR6dQLtiXDAyDaAKjKxiODGs4TndqXpfnmXfiCYY8WQ46%2Bf0ju%2BDRR60ZtWYXx2Udz8yqMunio833nDF96HgP8b0TKEo4q9D4a401XpulAYOS6fZgTyMLU3bUto8F%2FVqmRZ9zOqykASPK8rdfoiCamNX9GnhuN81AvK%2BzAIeU74VrK9Afkq%2BpG1suNLVkLb51pSWRBvKThJGCKnxGArQ2b3D7nVUSeLXo43A%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8LKlq2pYg
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That last link from Ted (smallworkshop) was very interesting. I understand the changes that have been made now.
The Sealey JIS tool bits that I bought a few years ago definitely fit the old screws on my 400f better than anything else though so that's what I use.
Right at the end of the article it mentions Robertson Square drive. I'd never met these before 2019 when in New Zealand our campervan used them everywhere. I had to buy a set of drivers when our waterpump for the sink went bellyup. Widely used in USA I believe .
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I had to buy a Robertson Square Drive tool as all the side panel retaining screws on our Canadian made Hot Tub use them.
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I don't know were you get "JIS profile that ended in 2008". I still buy JIS screws from Honda and other suppliers up to a delivery this morning from Japan. ;)
Graham/e, I'm not talking about the old profile JIS screws not being still available - I'm sure they are - I'm on about the tools that fit them.
Newer tools have been designed to work with JIS screws and with Phillips they are marked as say JIS PH3 - this change reflects the profile of new JIS tools on the market with the newer dual profiles so they work for both.(Clearly not all brands it seems)
I'm sure it has been mentioned on here that some new JIS bolts are sold without the dot mark on them this reflects the later JIS change in marking requirements.
You clearly inferred that my JIS PH3 screwdriver was not JIS standard - this is where I beg to differ - yes you might be able to obtain some JIS only screw drivers that are made in Japan to the old standard but certainly here in the UK all the tool retailers appear to be designating their JIS tools with the new JIS PH3 type specification reflecting dual use.
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I don't know were you get "JIS profile that ended in 2008". I still buy JIS screws from Honda and other suppliers up to a delivery this morning from Japan. ;)
Graham/e, I'm not talking about the old profile JIS screws not being still available - I'm sure they are - I'm on about the tools that fit them.
Newer tools have been designed to work with JIS screws and with Phillips they are marked as say JIS PH3 - this change reflects the profile of new JIS tools on the market with the newer dual profiles so they work for both.(Clearly not all brands it seems)
I'm sure it has been mentioned on here that some new JIS bolts are sold without the dot mark on them this reflects the later JIS change in marking requirements.
You clearly inferred that my JIS PH3 screwdriver was not JIS standard - this is where I beg to differ - yes you might be able to obtain some JIS only screw drivers that are made in Japan to the old standard but certainly here in the UK all the tool retailers appear to be designating their JIS tools with the new JIS PH3 type specification reflecting dual use.
Old as you call them with a dot to identify as original JIS are very available. To test a JIS screw or a PH screw, just force blu tack on the head and remove to see the profile.
Here is a link to a picture that they are still available and i still buy them in bulk >>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166216111052?hash=item26b34093cc:g:huoAAOSwPGBd72zP&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwKjgbz9CoZUv4ghC8o4rtbcdn5Tyb%2FThQzovUGp6U9Xu21stnrrAa19WFgUcW%2FUThxZt2IVu1%2FFoKqmknFm6BPZQPBbPtAdRWeKt1QftmZ3gKl%2BFFiGuPNScgPlElHo5IJwz5vOAJ%2Bfp3b1BxoZPJshqUhAOM7u%2FIZGlYG1O0eK9GO75H9ZW%2FoOfnxImBQJVkcMrYdg%2Fe3AgglOEVtLwiTXagfp1FveuIHUrLB%2Bs4GbzS4DPxRkF8qcmSfKiO2HArg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4iTqcOpYg
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Grahame the adding of the dot to the screw heads is no longer a requirement under the current JIS rules that cover manufacturing in a broad range of products. I suspect established manufacturers will keep the dot stamps until the machinery is replaced, newer firms have the option.
You are again missing the point I was discussing - the tool to use not screw head with or without a dot.🤔🤔🤔
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I think you are missing the point JIS is JIS and PH is Phillips.
I sent a message to the manufacture were i get my JIS screws and bolts from and asked if they could supply me JIS PH3 head screws. They have never even heard of a mix JIS PH head and said, JIS is JIS and PH is Phillips as, they are a different shape ;)
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Yet again Graham/e you are talking about ordering JIS screws from your supplier.
I am talking about the Tools to fit those screws.
Like it or not it appears that an agreement has been reached involving Europe, the US & Japan to enable a single tool that can be marketed that will fit both types of profile - these are marked as for example a JIS PH3 screwdriver.
I have never suggested that a standard Phillips Screwdriver will fit into a JIS screw head they cam out I think is the expression.
I do maintain however that a tool marked as JIS PH3 will fit a JIS screw with no cam out and can be used on a Phillips head. The difficulty might be that the manufacturing process is very precise so not all brands work as they should. That was the conclusion in one of my earlier references.
On the subject of screws for a moment - below are two advertised JIS screw photos downloaded from e bay. The first shows the dot markings the second one does not - it so happens that the second advert is close to home you should recognise it.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53043266536_8b36f65289_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oPfB9d)JIS screw (https://flic.kr/p/2oPfB9d) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53043266531_de66249b7b_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oPfB98)JIS undoted (https://flic.kr/p/2oPfB98) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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They will cam out as, i use PH on stripping engines and grind the tip so they fit better. I am not worried about screw head damage when removing as i always replace with new JIS. Putting a engine together i always us JIS bits as a PH bit chews the BZP plating and will rust very easy ;)
Cam out test >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SSLsJNgn4M&t=99s
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That test is flawed though, they are using a JIS and a PH in a PH screw, a better test would have been to use a JIS screw as well.
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Depends on what you look as flawed. If a PH driver cams in a PH head it will cam even easier in a JIS head. JIS were out well before Phillips so, Phillips is just a copy or a take on JIS. Before that brit and usa bikes were still using slotted ;)
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I suspect that the new range of JIS PH type of tip would have passed as they are visually different to a Phillips.
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You're missing the point. The problem is a JIS screw not a PH screw. PH was designed to cam out so that they didn't strip screws when being inserted by a machine. So linking that test proved nothing, if it had featured a JIS screw and used a PH driver and a JIS driver that would have addressed the point of the original question.
Try sourcing Vessel screwdriver sets Ted, I bought a set from Amazon a couple of years ago https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vessel-Megadora-2x100-2x150-Screwdriver/dp/B071SGNCSM/ref=sr_1_9?crid=1LAE2J1A245FD&keywords=vessel+JIS&qid=1689342831&s=diy&sprefix=vessel+jis%2Cdiy%2C72&sr=1-9
Not marked as PH as well.
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Is that the right link Ken - no mention of JIS but called Cross Point ?
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Yeah it's the right link Ted. If they were PH blades they'd be red.
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Blimey - reviews are very good!